Deposit return after tenant dies

walshb

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

Michael D Not Higgins

MOD: moved to new thread.

Gatling

Are you been actual serious

evosteo

Wow

davo2001

Don't be a dick, return it to the next of kin.

Michael D Not Higgins

The RTA 2004 Section 39 says a Part 4 tenancy is terminated on the death of a tenant. A fixed term agreement can't continue when the legal tenancy is terminated so it stands to reason that a fixed term would also be terminated. On termination of a tenancy, a landlord is obliged to return the deposit as per Section 12 (1) (d) and subject to subtraction of any arrears of rent or damage above wear and tear.

Also, Section 23 and Section 75 (4) (b) also deal with how rent arrears are dealt with on the death of a tenant or landlord, i.e. the debt still exists and is payable by or to the personal representative of the deceased.

cruizer101

There was a similar thread on this recently enough

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057757850&page=3

LHPHB

Has this happened to you already?

Yawns

walshb wrote: »

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

Upon death, the contract is terminated. To be fair, if you have to ask about it, it's a bad sign. If I was the LL in this case, I'd be making it a priority to find the next of kin and returning the deposit to them. Wouldn't even deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear.

DubCount

walshb wrote: »

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

The deposit is still owed back to the tenant (or in this case the tenants estate). If a lease is broken in any other way, the deposit is still due back to the tenant. Not sure why you would assume the landlord is entitled to it (unless there is damage or unpaid rent etc.).

BrokenArrows

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

LHPHB

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

Completely agree! Have to leave emotions out of business.

Yawns

But is he legally allowed to? Unless above normal wear & tear I don't think he can.

_Dara_

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

As per posts above, he is apparently not entitled to. Though if the tenant did damage beyond wear and tear, I presume it would fine to take some of the deposit for that.

I actually have a close friend who is terminally ill and who is renting currently. We were talking about practicalities recently and she said that she has a note written for her landlord acknowledging the things in the flat that will need to be replaced from her deposit ie. the mattress has some significant stains and will need to be replaced. A lot of terminally ill people will have copious plans made for afterwards. Sudden deaths are more tricky, of course.

HurlingRanker

Interesting that a couple of posters have assumed the OP is a landlord seeking to retain the deposit of a deceased tenant, that's one possibility, other possibilities include the OP being a friend/relative/associate of a recently deceased tenant (just like in the thread linked in post 7) or this could just be purely hypothetical.

myshirt

I'd look at this from a different angle. Guy at a funeral, crying really bad. Observing from a distance any decent person would say poor guy, he's taking this really hard, go over and ask him is he ok, comfort him to let's just get through today.

Little did I know, that man could be cut up real bad because he owed them a few quid and will likely now have to pay it over.

PhoenixParker

The fairest is probably rent paid up to the date the property is fully vacated and all other monies returned. That's probably not the legal stance though.

Graham

Mod Note

It's a reasonable question and we've no idea if it's being asked in the context of a landlord, a tenant, a relative of a recently deceased tenant or purely hypothetical.

Gatling

Legally do we need death clauses for leases now ,
Surely death isn't an excuse for a landlord so say a tenant had broken a lease and gets to keep a deposit

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Legally do we need death clauses for leases now ,

I guess that would depend whether it's something that's already covered by existing laws.

STB.

Anyone who uses somebody elses death as a means to perceived money loss as if they have breached a lease agreement is a scumbag.

Unfortunately there are plenty of cases out there where unscrupulous landlords/agents did not alone retain the deposit, but also pursued the family for the rest of the value of the lease. Those that suggest that you look at it from a purely business point of view, well there is clearly something wrong with those type people.

In my opinion there is nothing more terminal than death when it comes to lease agreeements.

I hope its a hypothetical question!

Graham

STB. wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty of cases out there where unscrupulous landlords/agents did not alone retain the deposit, but also pursued the family for the rest of the value of the lease.

Are there plenty of cases?

I was just thinking it's a scenario I hadn't come across.

STB.

@Graham

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Graham

STB. wrote: »

@Graham

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Thanks, would be interested in a link to see how that all worked out if you have one.

STB.

Graham wrote: »

Thanks, would be interested in a link to see how that all worked out if you have one.

Its from memory Graham. Seeing the thread rekindled it. I dont have a link and dont know the final outcome. These things whilst pursued by some, rarely make it to court.

The biggest issue for a landlord should be to ascertain the families wishes as regards the property as quick as possible. Arrangements for deposit return normally go hand in hand with the period of time that it will take to get the property back, I would have thought.

P. Breathnach

The deposit should be returned to the executor or administrator of the deceased's estate. It might be unwise to hand it over to anybody else associated with the deceased, as the landlord can not be sure that it will go in the right direction (I am assuming that the landlord does not know the deceased's family well).

Were I a landlord in that position, I would inform any family member that I knew, or could find, that I had the deposit and would hand it over to whoever is dealing with the estate. Probate being what it is, there would likely be a delay of 6-12 months.

the_syco

Yawns wrote: »

If I was the LL in this case, I'd be making it a priority to find the next of kin and returning the deposit to them. Wouldn't even deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear.

How would you find their next of kin? You have a house full of their stuff and their deposit. Although the lease may end with the tenants death, getting the stuff out in preparation for the next tenant may drag. As for not "deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear", bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

the_syco

STB. wrote: »

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Do you know was the law in place then, regarding the cessation of the lease due to death?

CIARAN_BOYLE

The deposit should be used to pay the rent until the estate removes the deceased' s possessions from the property.

If the family doesn't retrieve the property the landlord until the deposit is used up that is on them.

Yawns

the_syco wrote: »

How would you find their next of kin? You have a house full of their stuff and their deposit. Although the lease may end with the tenants death, getting the stuff out in preparation for the next tenant may drag. As for not "deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear", bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

Perhaps LL's might start including a contact section on lease's with next of kin contact name and number for situations such as this. People might not be ok with this but who knows. Anyone not out to screw a LL over might be ok to provide that information.

Ring the references that you would have checked out to see if they can help shed information.

Check the likes of rip.ie to check who is running the arrangements for burial. You can show up at the funeral to pay respects and if you have a range of empathy that is greater than that of a tea spoon, you could always inform the person in charge that you have the items available for collection and deposit ready to be returned etc. Of course you'd need to be able to have a bit of tact about it.

Yawns

the_syco wrote: »

bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

In this kind of case, someone has died. Someone is grieving for them. Money concerns should be secondary for them. I understand a LL has a business to run and needs to remove items and re-let.

But put yourself in the other person's position. By withholding deposit, what if they try to be a little bit akward.

By being pro-active and approaching the next of kin quickly, the LL can have his property back available for let a lot sooner with no hassle. No items to dispose of or storage to worry about. Box it all up if you can first but be kind about it as much as possible.

If you are proactive, you can have everything ready to go and give them an envelope with the deposit, tell them how sorry you are and so forth and then it's over and done with. Call the suppliers etc and get the bills sorted as well.

the_pen_turner

Surely you would find and context the executor . They would organise someone to collect the stuff, then the house would be examined etc . Then any damage or rent due would be worked out and deducted from the deposit. Then the deposit would be returned.
How else could you give back the deposit without knowing what value is left of the deposit

Graham

It's a tough position to be in for all involved.

For a grieving family, clearing a rental property promptly is going to be the last thing on their mind.
For most landlords, putting additional pressure on a grieving family is not a pleasant prospect.

When it comes down to it, there will usually be an executor who must necessarily perform certain duties even though grief may make it a difficult task.

The best you can really hope for is both sides show consideration to the others position. I expect this is what happens in the majority of cases.

the_syco

I'm playing devils advocate here.

Yawns wrote: »

But put yourself in the other person's position. By withholding deposit, what if they try to be a little bit akward.

The lease has ended, the person is not in the house. Should the family start getting awkward, what's stopping the landlord from blackbagging the contents? I'm not talking about straight away, I'm talking a couple of weeks after the funeral, and the family are still dragging their feet, as entering the building can be emotionally hard on the family, so they may not want to enter the house where their loved one spent their last few months.

Yawns wrote: »

Check the likes of rip.ie to check who is running the arrangements for burial.

If there is a family. If there isn't, what happens? After non-payment of rent of a month or so, knowing the person is of ill health, you gain access to the house, and find that they died some time ago. You know of no next of kin, there's no correspondence to anyone else. Is there a process in place?

walshb

Gatling wrote: »

Are you been actual serious

Being serious or been serious?

walshb

Jesus, some of the OTT attack responses here.

I was looking for guidance and advice here.

There are legalities I am sure to this. Rules and regulations....

Mrs OBumble

davo2001 wrote: »

Don't be a dick, return it to the next of kin.

Don't go near the next of kin, except to find out who the executor of the estate is. Thelatter is who you should talk to.

walshb

DubCount wrote: »

The deposit is still owed back to the tenant (or in this case the tenants estate). If a lease is broken in any other way, the deposit is still due back to the tenant. Not sure why you would assume the landlord is entitled to it (unless there is damage or unpaid rent etc.).

I didn't assume anything, hence my asking for advice.

So, there are instances where the deposit is not due back to the tenant's estate.

walshb

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Don't go near the next of kin, except to find out who the executor of the estate is. Thelatter is who you should talk to.

What I was thinking. It's the executor who would get the deposit back, not just any person.

SteM

walshb wrote: »

Jesus, some of the OTT attack responses here.

I was looking for guidance and advice here.

There are legalities I am sure to this. Rules and regulations....

Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?

walshb

SteM wrote: »

Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?

Easy saying that, but should a person be out of pocket or hit with a bill then how easy is it to do it.

Not sure the example you gave is apt really.

Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument on it as it's a sad event, but as mentioned, if the landlord is legally entitled to, as well as being out of pocket then I would not see anything wrong with it.

SteM

Tbf, the OP just asks if the landlord can retain a deposit in the event of a tenant death. It doesn't mention bring out of pocket or being hit with a bill. That's probably the reason for some of the responses.

walshb

SteM wrote: »

Tbf, the OP just asks if the landlord can retain a deposit in the event of a tenant death. It doesn't mention bring out of pocket or being hit with a bill. That's probably the reason for some of the responses.

I did mention break of lease.

But also out of pocket as regards wear and tear above normal wear and tear...

Or loss of rent/unpaid rent.

SteM

SteM wrote: »

Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?

Actually, yes, and they only waive it once they get a copy of the death certificate. I've been an exectutor in the past so can speak from experience.

In my case the home was owned, so I didn't need to worry about leases, but if in doubt I would contact the executor of the estate(unless of course they contact you). I did a lot of ringing round asking everyone from the ESB to the butcher to put together a final bill, and that was then payed from the estate.

In the case of a lease, I would imagine it is much the same.

JBWexford

_Dara_ wrote: »

As per posts above, he is apparently not entitled to. Though if the tenant did damage beyond wear and tear, I presume it would fine to take some of the deposit for that.

I actually have a close friend who is terminally ill and who is renting currently. We were talking about practicalities recently and she said that she has a note written for her landlord acknowledging the things in the flat that will need to be replaced from her deposit ie. the mattress has some significant stains and will need to be replaced. A lot of terminally ill people will have copious plans made for afterwards. Sudden deaths are more tricky, of course.

I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope everything will be as peaceful as possible for your friend, and for you, also.

_Dara_

JBWexford wrote: »

I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope everything will be as peaceful as possible for your friend, and for you, also.

Thanks, she's very pragmatic. You'd be amazed how organised the fatally ill can be! :eek:

ZV7841

Does it matter how the death occurred?
If it were a suicide could it be argued that the deceased broke the lease by his actions?

The_Conductor

In general- on the death of a person, the executor of their estate makes a list of all their assets and liabilities- and ranks any debts in order of the strength of the debt- i.e. secured debts first, unsecured debts last. A deposit- is an asset- rather than a liability- and normally, it would be assumed it could be recovered- with cognisant of any reasonable deductions under the RTA Act.

A tenancy is legally terminated on the death of the tenant (but not the landlord)- and while I'm not overly familiar with the case referred to earlier in this thread (I believe it relates to the 20 year old UCD who took their life 5-6 years ago- and its not really relevant or appropriate to detail it here), in general- the tenancy ended on the day the tenant passed away, and treatment of the deposit is identical to how a deposit should normally be treated- that is, any unpaid bills are covered, any pre-paid rent added to the deposit, and any costs offset against it- and the balance returned the executor of the person's estate.

The death of a tenant is not a regular occurence, I'm not aware that its come up in this forum previously (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Personally- I'd suggest that morally the most approrpriate manner of dealing with this- is simply to contact the executor of the estate and simply return the deposit in full- and chalk any loss down to the cost of doing business. Its not appropriate to do anything else. I'd also suggest to try to do so ASAP- so if there are funeral expenses or other expenses that the executor is likely to encounter immediately- it'll assist them.

4ensic15

Unles the tenant has made a will, there will be no executor. Unless there are substantial assets the relatives will not bother with administration. There will thus be no one to look for the deposit back. Even if there is an administrator or executor they will have difficulty in finding out if there was ever a deposit paid and that there were no arrears of rent or damage at the time of death. By the time they get around to looking for the deposit back the place will have been let to a new tenant. The landlord will be pretty safe in keeping the deposit.

Dial Hard

walshb wrote:

if the landlord is legally entitled to, as well as being out of pocket then I would not see anything wrong with it.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

walshb

Dial Hard wrote: »

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

But it's not just from a legal base...

There are financial issues to consider too..

So yes, there can be cases where it's both legal and right (fair).