Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Book readers"

EagererBeaver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Edit: As per above, how would that impress Robert? And wouldn't he have to tell him?

I don't know, ask Jaime and Tyrion. They're the ones who postulated it.

bnt

Joffrey was twelve years old at the time of the attempt on Bran's life: clueless, with the attention span of a direwolf puppy; but he was the one who organised an assassin to kill another boy he barely noticed? Nah, that had to be speculation. Littlefinger might not have been the ultimate source of the order, but he was involved. He didn't deny it when Ned confronted him with the dagger:

“You forget,” Ned told him. “You forget Jon Arryn. You forget Jory Cassel. And you forget this.” He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel, as sharp as the difference between right and wrong, between true and false, between life and death. “They sent a man to cut my son’s throat, Lord Baelish.”
Littlefinger sighed. “I fear I did forget, my lord. Pray forgive me. For a moment I did not remember that I was talking to a Stark.” His mouth quirked.

PhlegmyMoses

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I don't know, ask Jaime and Tyrion. They're the ones who postulated it.

It was because he overheard Robert saying it would be a mercy to kill the child and insinuating that Ned was soft for not putting him out of his misery.

wp_rathead

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Edit: As per above, how would that impress Robert? And wouldn't he have to tell him?

In the book didn't Joeffry over hear Robert say it would be better if someone gave Bran the gift of mercy than be a cripple?

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I don't know, ask Jaime and Tyrion. They're the ones who postulated it.

Characters say all kinds of things based on their knowledge or lack thereof. The one thing that scene told me was that Jaime wasn't involved. Littlefinger would have been highly motivated to drive a wedge between the Starks and the Lannisters. "Chaos is a ladder" indeed.

duploelabs

Seems like winterfell is gathering the avengers. One brilliant at political maneuvering (Sansa), One deadly assassin (Arya), One brilliant swordswoman (Brienne), One legendary swordsman (Pod), One great battle commander (Jon), One Doctor Manhattan (Bran). All they need now is one that's brilliant with knives that finishes off each episode with a corny joke

PhlegmyMoses

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Characters say all kinds of things based on their knowledge or lack thereof. The one thing that scene told me was that Jaime wasn't involved. Littlefinger would have been highly motivated to drive a wedge between the Starks and the Lannisters. "Chaos is a ladder" indeed.

It's pretty much accepted that it was Joffrey that sent the catspaw. He is the only one dumb enough to send a guy with a Valyrion blade that can lead back to him to kill a child in a coma.

Dial Hard

Deleted User wrote:

One final thought for now - Did anyone else think that Dany was getting a bit...amorous towards Jon down in the cave? I thought she was going to hit him with a marriage proposal. I wouldn't rule that out from happening, even if it is revealed that they are cousins.

Pedantic, I know, she's his aunt, not his cousin.

Fantastic episode, I thought. Totally watching it again tonight, a) because it was so brilliant and b) because parts of it were so dark that even with all the blinds and curtains closed, I still couldn't quite make out parts.

EagererBeaver

Dial Hard wrote: »

Pedantic, I know, she's his aunt, not his cousin.

Fantastic episode, I thought. Totally watching it again tonight, a) because it was so brilliant and b) because parts of it were so dark that even with all the blinds and curtains closed, I still couldn't quite make out parts.

Strange, I didn't find it dark at all, especially in comparison to some other episodes this season. Arya and Sansa in the crypt was about as dark as it got.

Dial Hard

EagererBeaver wrote:

Strange, I didn't find it dark at all, especially in comparison to some other episodes this season. Arya and Sansa in the crypt was about as dark as it got.

The crypt scene and the final shot of Jaime were virtually invisible for me. It was very sunny out.

EagererBeaver

Dial Hard wrote: »

The crypt scene and the final shot of Jaime were virtually invisible for me. It was very sunny out.

I think the whole point was that Jaime was supposed to be in the dark - he was sinking under water at it cut to credits.

Dial Hard

EagererBeaver wrote:

I think the whole point was that Jaime was supposed to be in the dark - he was sinking under water at it cut to credits.

I'm aware of that. I literally couldn't see anything on the screen, I had to ask a friend what the last shot was.

podgemonster

That was Fúckin class!

Littlefinger hearing "chaos is a laddah!!" scared the bejesus out of him probably was one of my fav scenes until Drogon and Dany went to westoros and made kindling out of the Lions.

Jaime is such an amazing character

Bronn "Get back to kingslanding, they're gonna swamp us"
Jaime "No we can hold them off"
Drogon "sup!"
Jaime "oh"

Brilliant!

Liam O

The army only knowing that the dothraki are coming due to the sound of them is a bit silly. They should have scouts surely? Drogon literally just appearing so close while an epic moment was a bit convenient.

Battle scene was great and very entertaining but it would have been a pure massacre and was given too much quarter. Nobody survives that if they don't surrender.

Thought the Arya return was very emotionally charged but that may have been me putting the book hat on, having wanted that moment for a long time. Unsure it was anything the show particularly did, especially considering there have been what, 4 of these reunions the last few seasons. Makes you wonder what the point in killing Rickon was now?

Joffrey definitely sent the catspaw imo. The story of him cutting open the pregnant cat in a deranged attempt to impress Robert is the precursor to it. Littlefinger may have stoked the fire and potentially given him the idea of the valyrian steel blade to create more chaos but that would be about it.

RobbingBandit

Wouldn't have bothered with scouts highgarden was the enemy Dany was on dragonstone or so the lanisters thought, no need to be prepared for battle.

CMOTDibbler

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Wouldn't have bothered with scouts highgarden was the enemy Dany was on dragonstone or so the lanisters thought, no need to be prepared for battle.

Ah, they would have had scouts out. Jaime even mentioned how exposed they were. But scouts would never outrun a dragon.

Dial Hard

Liam O wrote:

Makes you wonder what the point in killing Rickon was now?

To goad Jon into making a mistake at the Battle of the Bastards, and it worked.

Billy86

duploelabs wrote: »

Seems like winterfell is gathering the avengers. One brilliant at political maneuvering (Sansa), One deadly assassin (Arya), One brilliant swordswoman (Brienne), One legendary swordsman (Pod), One great battle commander (Jon), One Doctor Manhattan (Bran). All they need now is one that's brilliant with knives that finishes off each episode with a corny joke

Wrong sword, but I laughed all the same.

Yakuza

Absolutely epic episode of an epic story, a fantastic counterpoint to Hardhome. We've now seen the Dany's Fire to the Night King's Ice.

Also, as a little bonus, my inner grammar Nazi leaped for joy at the exchange below:
Jon Snow: How many men do we have in the North to fight him? 10,000? Less?
Ser Davos: Fewer (Davos said it in unison with my screaming brain !!)
Jon Snow: What?

Defo in the top 3 (so far!) along with Hardhome, Battle of the Ba5tards.

Liam O

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ah, they would have had scouts out. Jaime even mentioned how exposed they were. But scouts would never outrun a dragon.

They would see the dothraki and dragon from quite far away though. Randyl Tarly and Jaime Lannister have been through campaigns before where they were surprised. Are we asked to forget (or think Jaime forgets) the Whispering Wood? There should have been a lot of lookouts given how exposed they were.

Avatar MIA

Dial Hard wrote: »

To goad Jon into making a mistake at the Battle of the Bastards, and it worked.

Am I correct in thinking, while some complain about the quality post passing out the books the three favourite episodes people list are all post book?

Billy86

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking, while some complain about the quality post passing out the books the three favourite episodes people list are all post book?

Off the top of my head and I may well be forgetting some, but my four favourite episodes (couldn't put leave any of them out) were Red Wedding, Hardhome, Blackwater and last night.

RobbingBandit

Watchers on the Wall and Winds of Winter along with last nights episode would be my top 3 now.

Danjamin1

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking, while some complain about the quality post passing out the books the three favourite episodes people list are all post book?

An epic battle sequence can make an episode and there's no doubt the show does those well. Hardhome is my favourite episode so far but not for the dialogue. I still remember talking to people who hadn't read the books after the red wedding, that was a masterclass in writing treachery. Can only imagine the shock I'd have felt if I hadn't read it first, reading it was shocking enough!

Loafing Oaf

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Winds of Winter along with last nights episode would be my top 3 now.

Sept explosion is still the greatest scene for me but last night's battle ran it pretty close.

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Savage Tyrant

Amazing episode. Right up there with Battle of the Blackwater, Red Wedding, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter in my opinion.

There was a lot of talk about Cersei having the backing of the Iron Bank "once the gold arrives, of course" ... Now we know the gold made it through the gates, but with her army depleted and the food stores decimated, I think Cersie might refuse to pay and setting the Iron Bank to go against her.

Avatar MIA

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I think Yara had to pledge her fealty. I don't think Dany has a problem with other kings/queens as long as they see her as their ruler (kinda like an emperor).

A scaled dragon between you and harm is pretty good protection, plus armour would limit movement.

The rest I'd pretty much agree with word for word.

Dyr

How many episodes are left in this season?

I'm just wondering how many deus ex machina we have to go this year? One each episode?

EagererBeaver

....... wrote: »

I'm a bit let down with Baelish, he just seems to be drifting off into nothingness with all his previous scheming a thing of the past. I hope he has something up his sleeve before taking a dagger soon.

I imagine it will be Arya who kills Littlefinger. Bran just gave a dagger meant to kill him to a Faceless Man, the debt must be paid, but it is all the same to the Many Faced God who pays it.
Is Randyll Tarly the most horrible prick in the show? Flog the men. Did he burn? Hard to tell.

Littlefinger I imagine will now make his move as Sansa looks to do something to try and prove herself. Someone earlier described her as a great political operative. She's nothing of the sort, so far. She has come on a lot but she's a child compared to the rest of them. Too busy dreaming of ****ing lemon cakes.

As for is Tarly the most horrible man in the show, you've forgotten about Ramsay and Joffrey pretty quickly.

Loafing Oaf

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Kind of surprising they didn't have the weapon ready to go, at least have a guy lined up to fire it....

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pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Littlefinger I imagine will now make his move as Sansa looks to do something to try and prove herself. Someone earlier described her as a great political operative. She's nothing of the sort, so far. She has come on a lot but she's a child compared to the rest of them. Too busy dreaming of ****ing lemon cakes.

I really really hope he does do something with some sort of element of surprise and intelligence. He's been reduced to a load of reaction shots and conversations that appear to go the exact opposite of how he wanted them to go, if it turns out that that was all just to be taken at face value it'll be really disappointing and really undermine the character. His convo with Sansa last week suggests it won't be how things play out but who knows.

Overall, that battle was amazing, Arya home was good, I liked the Jon/Theon reunion and pretty much everything else was grand but holy shít on a stick Jon and Dany in the cave was possibly the worst scene that's ever been on the show and I'm only qualifying that because bad poosy is still etched on my brain.

Dyr

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Wouldn't have bothered with scouts highgarden was the enemy Dany was on dragonstone or so the lanisters thought, no need to be prepared for battle.

"After victory, tighten your helmet strap"

I've been saying this all through the series, the suprise attack bull**** that happens over and over might be fun for their target audience but its reduced the whole affair to leave your brains at the door popcorn shtick

leggo

....... wrote: »

I'm a bit let down with Baelish, he just seems to be drifting off into nothingness with all his previous scheming a thing of the past. I hope he has something up his sleeve before taking a dagger soon.

I think the problem with Littlefinger is that his plan has all gone to plan so far with the next part being relatively straightforward: marry Sansa. With the military might and lordship he commands, he probably figured it'd be a natural fit for Sansa to marry him, and likely still thinks she'll relent (though the walls appear to be closing in). So his plan is stagnating.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Bambi wrote: »

"After victory, tighten your helmet strap"

I've been saying this all through the series, the suprise attack bull**** that happens over and over might be fun for their target audience but its reduced the whole affair to leave your brains at the door popcorn shtick

Reading the same criticism again and again is a lot less fun than watching the same surprise attack thing again and again. It happens once or twice a season, it's always done spectacularly well and appreciably raises the stakes and advances the plot. Sequences like this one or Hardhome are massively complex and well executed bits of TELEVISION, which is the medium. They're not particularly satisfying as object lessons in military tactics, no, but that's a fairly trite criticism imo. The Handmaids Tale wasn't a laugh riot but pointing that our week after week wouldn't be making any kind of valid point about it.

The show is not the books. Each have strengths and weaknesses specific to the medium or as a result of the creative voices behind them. The show is necessarily different than it was in the earliest seasons. It's changed in good and bad ways but overall it still works brilliantly and it's far from brainless, it's nonsense saying that this one niggly aspect undermines the whole rest of the show.

There are loooooads of military history documentaries and series for anyone who's like, way smarter than the braindead target audience who don't care about scouts to the point it ruins their enjoyment of one of the best TV shows of the history of the medium.

Loafing Oaf

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

I liked the Jon/Theon reunion

Why did Jon say he would have killed Theon if it wasn't for him rescuing Sansa from Ramsay? (I'm not that familiar with the early seasons)

Avatar MIA

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Why did Jon say he would have killed Theon if it wasn't for him rescuing Sansa from Ramsay? (I'm not that familiar with the early seasons)

He helped her escape from Winterfell/Ramsey - they jumped from the castle into a snow drift.

EagererBeaver

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Amazing episode. Right up there with Battle of the Blackwater, Red Wedding, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter in my opinion.

There was a lot of talk about Cersei having the backing of the Iron Bank "once the gold arrives, of course" ... Now we know the gold made it through the gates, but with her army depleted and the food stores decimated, I think Cersie might refuse to pay and setting the Iron Bank to go against her.

I think she'll pay but I think she'll struggle to garner any support from them as they see the reality of the situation.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Why did Jon say he would have killed Theon if it wasn't for him rescuing Sansa from Ramsay? (I'm not that familiar with the early seasons)

He betrayed Robb after being sent as emissary to the Iron Islands and commandeered Winterfell. Far as I remember Jon was never mad about him even when they were kids.

Avatar MIA

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

He betrayed Robb after being sent as emissary to the Iron Islands and commandeered Winterfell. Far as I remember Jon was never mad about him even when they were kids.

Read the post you quoted again :P

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Read the post you quoted again :P

I did, it's asking what reason Jon would have to kill Theon!

Loafing Oaf

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Read the post you quoted again :P

Yes electro-bitch has satisfactorily answered my question.

Avatar MIA

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yes electro-bitch has satisfactorily answered my question.

*whisltes*

EagererBeaver

Avatar MIA wrote: »

*whisltes*

Tail firmly between the legs!

Avatar MIA

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Tail firmly between the legs!

Theonesque

wp_rathead

Bambi wrote: »

How many episodes are left in this season?

I'm just wondering how many deus ex machina we have to go this year? One each episode?

Ah this aul trope :rolleyes:
Dragons appearing in a show with dragons is not a Deus Ex Machina

leggo

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah this aul trope :rolleyes:
Dragons appearing in a show with dragons is not a Deus Ex Machina

Ah to be fair, they do show up at convenient times. I don't think the battle was Dragon Ex Machina, but stuff like on the beach when they're conveniently flying in the distance when Dany is like "Hmmm what'll I do??" Or last week appearing perfectly timed as Jon arrives. It's a touch heavy handed. Forgiveable, but it could be more subtle.

Riddle101

Very interesting hearing Cersei mentioning the Golden Company last night. They're supposed to be the fiercest sellsword company I believe. They've about 10,000 soliders and the also have War Elephants. They're also aligned with Aegon Targayren and Jon Coninnington in the books. But I could see Cersei hiring them all the same.

Seeing the battle scene last night reminds me of a scene from season 1 where Robert Baratheon talks about the Dothraki. In this scene we see Robert's keen military mind at work. "Only a fool would meet the Dothraki on an open field" And of course we got the field of fire last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY5As-RP1MM