GAA Special on 13 August

Grad18

Hey all,

Sorry if the wrong place. Only used Irish Rail twice around 10 years ago. Anyway heading to Croke Park from Waterford on the 13 th August.

I have just booked some seats on the specials departing Waterford at 10.20 which is taking 2 hours non stop and returning at 19.15 again taking 2 hours and 5 minutes non stop.

Anyway my question is those times seem excessive considering the regular schedules?

Will it be operated by those new DMUs??

Thanks.

Jamie2k9

They will be operated by 22000 ICR's. There is a lot of added time to those schedules and it's classic IE.

The 10.20 up should arrive around 12.10 if things run well and if the Belmond is early it could even be 12.05.

They scheduled a non stop service last year for 1h58m but it arrived into Heuston in 1h45m but it could of been 1h40m but was held for been so early!

It looks like they are keeping a path for an 09.45-11.40 ish service free which is probally why they are allowing even more extra time to the 10.20 but if things run to time that would also arrive 10 minutes early.

The 19.15 is an example of poor planning and lack of attention to detail. It's been the time specials to Kilkenny/Waterford depart at for some years but it was on the basis of serving all stations from Carlow south arriving t 21.30 however you are going to have a wait of up to 15 minutes in Mhuine Bheag for the Belmond to arrive as they are going to schedule 80 minutes when it will likely take around 68m. Should reach Waterford 5-10 minutes early but good planning would have it departing at 19.35 and rimed for 1h55m.

In IE's defense it will not always be possible to match scheduled times however specials also give the opportunity to attract potential customers but they just over compensate with scheduling when there is no need at all. They have various running data of such schedules for 3-4 years but never adjust accordingly.

Grad18

Thanks thats great. If I remember I might post how long it takes.

Never took a trip on the 22000 yet, my last trip was on an orange train.

91wx763

1998 All Ireland quarter final- Waterford v Galway, return working was 079 and 8 Cravens, 1 hour 58 mins CONNOLLY-Waterford !!!!!

Jamie2k9

91wx763 wrote: »

1998 All Ireland quarter final- Waterford v Galway, return working was 079 and 8 Cravens, 1 hour 58 mins CONNOLLY-Waterford !!!!!

Ironically the more money IE throw at the railways to improve them it makes them slower

goingnowhere

No one really cares about a once off.

Average end to end times on Waterford have fallen significantly, indeed the slowest train is now a lot quicker than before

I remember the slowest train Dublin Cork was 3:30 its now 2:50 thats really what matters

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Grad18

Well the 10.20 up arrived 18 minutes early at around 12.02. Had a ten minute stop at Athy for a driver change from what I saw.

19.15 back had a longer stop but think we arrived a little early as well.

They were heavily criticsed during the week in the media for only providing one service which was sold out. Lot of people saying they were just ignoring complaints/requests but did issue a statement once the media requested a response.

Will have to wait and see what they come up with on September 3rd.

91wx763

Grad18 wrote: »

Well the 10.20 up arrived 18 minutes early at around 12.02. Had a ten minute stop at Athy for a driver change from what I saw.

19.15 back had a longer stop but think we arrived a little early as well.

They were heavily criticsed during the week in the media for only providing one service which was sold out. Lot of people saying they were just ignoring complaints/requests but did issue a statement once the media requested a response.

Will have to wait and see what they come up with on September 3rd.

I sent this to dubyellor but they read out "Barry Kenny"'s statement/lie about lack of rolling stock.........
Eamonn.


IÉ don't have enough drivers to run the normal service through (I will allege) management incompetence so certainly don't expect many extras. There are 2 trains a day each way to Limerick Junction and these are often replaced by a bus due to driver shortage. Dublin trains go out late because the booked driver has to walk out to the yard to get their own train. Years ago there would have been the Rosslare train to cover too- it got closed down, can you see why ? There were 10 beet trains every day every autumn, it could never be reinstated now if beet growing starts again because of NO DRIVERS !!!!

goingnowhere

An extra train was run, there was no obligation to do so, there was an earlier scheduled service also
It arrived early in both directions
No report of any issues onboard
Presumably Irish Rail made a profit

Struggling to see what is wrong here

91wx763

goingnowhere wrote: »

An extra train was run, there was no obligation to do so, there was an earlier scheduled service also
It arrived early in both directions
No report of any issues onboard
Presumably Irish Rail made a profit

Struggling to see what is wrong here

There is somewhat of an obligation for a non-privatised semi state rail company to run a service that conveniences the unfortunate travelling public/taxpayer. Shur tis terrible that an operationally difficult county gets to the All Ireland final !!!

goingnowhere

That the scheduled timetable...

Extra trains require payment of a fee to the NTA as Irish Rail is using a state funded asset for commercial use.

The real killer is the restrictions on train lengths due platforms on the route. If Waterford long platform was available a 9 coach train could run non stop to Dublin.

There is a spare train available as there is no Waterford Limerick service on Sundays

Jamie2k9

91wx763 wrote: »

I sent this to dubyellor but they read out "Barry Kenny"'s statement/lie about lack of rolling stock.........
Eamonn.


Idon't have enough drivers to run the normal service through (I will allege) management incompetence so certainly don't expect many extras. There are 2 trains a day each way to Limerick Junction and these are often replaced by a bus due to driver shortage. Dublin trains go out late because the booked driver has to walk out to the yard to get their own train. Years ago there would have been the Rosslare train to cover too- it got closed down, can you see why ? There were 10 beet trains every day every autumn, it could never be reinstated now if beet growing starts again because of NO DRIVERS !!!!

If it was Waterford v Kilkenny, they would of ran two specials, don't buy the driver shortage. Yes they have one but honestly it wasn't the reason a second didn't operate.

I have never been delayed because trains are parked in the station yard. I also don't believe drivers go and get them. It's done by the person who does the various shunts around the station for the most part.

It must be a pain to park them up, not exactly a straight in/out job.

That the scheduled timetable...

Extra trains require payment of a fee to the NTA as Irish Rail is using a state funded asset for commercial use.

The real killer is the restrictions on train lengths due platforms on the route. If Waterford long platform was available a 9 coach train could run non stop to Dublin.

There is a spare train available as there is no Waterford Limerick service on Sundays

They have 2x3 and 3 car spare on Sundays, they ran the 2x3 car.

Now some clever planning could of resulted in a 4x3 car operating (without an empty stock movement), 7 coaches are allowed once they don't serve Kilkenny. Not sure but prehaps an 8 coach could of fitted onto the platform in Waterford but because of a trolley change it wouldn't of been allowed to operate.

Increasing the scheduled 9.05 from 5 to 6 coaches and only selling 140 of 380 seats online and also stating no tickets will be available at the station on the day. I wonder how many of those seats not sold were left empty on Sunday. If anything selling it out would of probally catered for the demand and deliver even more cash without the need for another service.

marno21

goingnowhere wrote: »

An extra train was run, there was no obligation to do so, there was an earlier scheduled service also
It arrived early in both directions
No report of any issues onboard
Presumably Irish Rail made a profit

Struggling to see what is wrong here

The volume of cars on the M7, M8 and M9 yesterday would indicate differently.

howiya

marno21 wrote: »

The volume of cars on the M7, M8 and M9 yesterday would indicate differently.

Was travelling back to Dublin last night and couldn't believe the level of traffic going the other way. Hit Naas after 9pm. Would have presumed most of the match traffic would have been long gone at that stage. Match finished at 5

tubbs26

Why do all the specials run to and from Heuston?

With the PPT open surely they could be run to and from Connolly

Jamie2k9

tubbs26 wrote: »

Why do all the specials run to and from Heuston?

With the PPT open surely they could be run to and from Connolly

Most drivers are not trained to operate via PPT and that would mean for every special ran they would require a second driver from Heuston plus the trains having to run empty to/from Connolly before/after the specials operate.

tubbs26

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Most drivers are not trained to operate via PPT and that would mean for every special ran they would require a second driver from Heuston plus the trains having to run empty to/from Connolly before/after the specials operate.

Thanks, as usual things are never as simple as they seem.

Hopefully in time drivers will be trained. For matches and concerts in Croke Park a service to Connolly/Drumcondra from the country would be seriously convenient.

marno21

The CIE effect. 72,000 fans arriving to Croke Park from two southern seaboard counties, in addition to it being peak season in Dublin and IE making the bare bare minimum effort.

A shuttle from Heuston to Drumcondra would've helped majorly here. Most Luases were almost full approaching Red Cow from Tallaght/Saggart let alone letting people on from the intercity bus services/park and ride. Then you had another stampede of people trying to join at Heuston.

Were there a decent service from feeder stations (Middleton etc, Cobh, Millstreet, Banteer) to Cork/Mallow/Charleville and also from Waterford you would have good uptake. No one wants to attend a match at Croke Park, after having got up early to drive to Dublin and have to face a 6 hour return trip.

Unfit for purpose is a very light way of putting the state of rail transit in the capital.

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

Extra trains require payment of a fee to the NTA as Irish Rail is using a state funded asset for commercial use.

well if that is the case then that needs to be stopped. those assets were not bought by the NTA and therefore the NTA should have no entitlement to take money for their use. the fact the railway may use assets to potentially bring in some income is neither here nor there, it bringing in income is surely what we all want?
such nonsense, which discourages the running of extra services and specials to cater to potential traffic generators, damages the reputation of the railway and deprives it of income.
the NTA is supposed to be about encouraging use of public transport and yet it implements guff like this. good old ireland.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

well if that is the case then that needs to be stopped. those assets were not bought by the NTA and therefore the NTA should have no entitlement to take money for their use. the fact the railway may use assets to potentially bring in some income is neither here nor there, it bringing in income is surely what we all want?
such nonsense, which discourages the running of extra services and specials to cater to potential traffic generators, damages the reputation of the railway and deprives it of income.
the NTA is supposed to be about encouraging use of public transport and yet it implements guff like this. good old ireland.

It is the case, would like to know how they calculate the charge.

Thanks, as usual things are never as simple as they seem.

Hopefully in time drivers will be trained. For matches and concerts in Croke Park a service to Connolly/Drumcondra from the country would be seriously convenient.

Not really ideal, if the line wasn't elevated it may of given the opportunity to expand Drumcondra station years ago and various services terminate there on match days.

goingnowhere

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It is the case, would like to know how they calculate the charge.

Appendix E, Section 5 of the PSO contract as revised

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

those assets were not bought by the NTA and therefore the NTA should have no entitlement to take money for their use. .

They were bought by the state for use on PSO contracts and are controlled by the NTA. Not charging would be a breach of state aid rules.

This is why BE have buses they own and buses the NTA own as separate sub fleets

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

They were bought by the state for use on PSO contracts and are controlled by the NTA. Not charging would be a breach of state aid rules.

This is why BE have buses they own and buses the NTA own as separate sub fleets

It's very easy to bend state aid rules, minor adjustment to the PSO contracts and IE could be obliged to provide additional services without having to pay the NTA however the NTA would never be open to that idea, Not sure it would encourage IE enough either.

goingnowhere

Its there to provide a fair playing field

If I'm a private company I have to pay access fee to use the infrastructure, why should Irish Rail not have to pay?

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its there to provide a fair playing field

If I'm a private company I have to pay access fee to use the infrastructure, why should Irish Rail not have to pay?

because it is a public service and we are paying for it. we own the operator and we own the infrastructure. this nonsense also insures extra services don't run more often which disbenefits the public (mind you whether irish rail would bother anyway is another question but still this doesn't help)
regardless, public services should not have to pay anything to unelected organisations.
private operators are technically not public services but providers of services to the public which is slightly different.
benefiting the public via public services comes before fair playing fields for me.

Hilly Bill

You don't own anything.

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its there to provide a fair playing field

If I'm a private company I have to pay access fee to use the infrastructure, why should Irish Rail not have to pay?

There is a big difference between a once off special service operated by IE and a private operator wanting access to the network. A private operator will never want to operate a once off special on the network as they cannot, just easier to outsource the ops to IE in such a situation.

No reason the PSO contracts cannot be adjusted which might encourage IE to get the finger out and provide such specials on thinner routes.

91wx763

This weekend's kettle is cancelled. No driver. No irony please. https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/whats-on/42/radio-train

A bit more honesty from facebook
"IMPORTANT - RADIO TRAIN CANCELLED

Dear passengers,



It is with deep regret that we have to inform you that this Sunday's special train Kilkenny has been CANCELLED.

This is as a result of Irish Rail not being able to provide drivers to operate the train. We contract Irish Rail to drive our diesel and steam services. Earlier this week we were informed that they were short drivers, but were doing their best to source a crew.

This morning, Thursday we were informed that no crew was available and that we have to cancel the train.

This is extremely disappointing following the failure of our steam loco No.4 2 weeks ago. It is disappointing to be let down at this late hour.

All tickets will now be fully refunded. If you booked online via Eventbrite, you should have received an email confirming that your refund has been approved. Please allow up to 7 working days for the payment to return to the card that you booked under.

If you booked by post, we will be posting you a cheque for the full amount over the next week. Postal booking queries can contact us at 01-4800553.

Our next public outing will be a diesel tour to Cork & Tralee in October and the next steam outing will be our Halloween specials to Maynooth in October. Please keep an eye on our Facebook and website for full details.

Yours sincerely,

Railway Preservation Society of Ireland

Dublin Area Operations Committee"

Del.Monte

91wx763 wrote: »

This weekend's kettle is cancelled. No driver. No irony please. https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/whats-on/42/radio-train

A bit more honesty from facebook
"IMPORTANT - RADIO TRAIN CANCELLED

Dear passengers,



It is with deep regret that we have to inform you that this Sunday's special train Kilkenny has been CANCELLED.

This is as a result of Irish Rail not being able to provide drivers to operate the train. We contract Irish Rail to drive our diesel and steam services. Earlier this week we were informed that they were short drivers, but were doing their best to source a crew.

This morning, Thursday we were informed that no crew was available and that we have to cancel the train.

This is extremely disappointing following the failure of our steam loco No.4 2 weeks ago. It is disappointing to be let down at this late hour.

All tickets will now be fully refunded. If you booked online via Eventbrite, you should have received an email confirming that your refund has been approved. Please allow up to 7 working days for the payment to return to the card that you booked under.

If you booked by post, we will be posting you a cheque for the full amount over the next week. Postal booking queries can contact us at 01-4800553.

Our next public outing will be a diesel tour to Cork & Tralee in October and the next steam outing will be our Halloween specials to Maynooth in October. Please keep an eye on our Facebook and website for full details.

Yours sincerely,

Railway Preservation Society of Ireland

Dublin Area Operations Committee"

Why is this posted under GAA special?

91wx763

Because that's where we were at the start with no driver (I allege) for a second Waterford special....

Jamie2k9

91wx763 wrote: »

Because that's where we were at the start with no driver (I allege) for a second Waterford special....

Indeed, this RPSI tour required 2 Waterford drivers to operate. Heuston and Portlaoise ones are probably already stretched and no other drivers would be able to operate.

In fairness they are doing a better job with the Limerick J shuttle this summer and it should be the priority if they are short drivers.

Belmond is also in the mix this year and has probally taking up what little availability there was.

goingnowhere

And you need a train guard (there aren't many of them left) who signs for vacuum braked stock

Jamie2k9

Anyway back to the GAA topic, looks like IE have been reading. On 3 September they have left the 10.20 special unchanged but knocked off 25 minutes from the 19.15 return by moving it to 19.40 giving 1h40m instead 2h05m,

91wx763

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Indeed, this RPSI tour required 2 Waterford drivers to operate. Heuston and Portlaoise ones are probably already stretched and no other drivers would be able to operate.

In fairness they are doing a better job with the Limerick J shuttle this summer and it should be the priority if they are short drivers.

Belmond is also in the mix this year and has probally taking up what little availability there was.

September railtour Belfast to Rosslare now going to Bray and Dromod !!! Eh, guess why.....

flyingsnail

91wx763 wrote: »

September railtour Belfast to Rosslare now going to Bray and Dromod !!! Eh, guess why.....

My guess would be engineering works closing the line south of Bray ???
and it is not going to Bray, it is Belfast - Connolly - Sligo - Connolly - Belfast

Jamie2k9

September railtour Belfast to Rosslare now going to Bray and Dromod !!! Eh, guess why.....

flyingsnail wrote: »

My guess would be engineering works closing the line south of Bray ???
and it is not going to Bray, it is Belfast - Connolly - Sligo - Connolly - Belfast

Unless they are unexpected works needed, surly not just poor planning from IE given this service would of been known about 6-9 months....

91wx763

Tour now to Sligo with (probably) 112

IMPORTANT LOCOMOTIVE UPDATE - RPSI / MRSI ''East Coaster'' Railtour , Saturday 9th September 2017. (Posted on behalf of RPSI BOAC).

It has been confirmed today that it is planned to operate next Saturday's tour to Sligo with the Northern Ireland Railway's 111 Class locomotive. The same locomotive will feature from Whitehead - Sligo & return. Such visits for the class are non existent.

The locomotive is likely to be No.112 which has toured the system in Irish Rail over the years and was always a favorite for enthusiasts whilst it was on loan during it's career. 112 last visited Sligo in 2003 and will be a welcome sight next Saturday.

The tour schedule main points are as follows:

Whitehead RPSI - 0735 departure
Belfast Central - 0806 / 0827
Lisburn - 0839 / 0841
Portadown - 0904 / 0906
Dundalk - 0940 (Pass)
Drogheda - 1005 / 1010
Dublin Connolly - 1100 arrival - 1130 departure via Newcommen.
Maynooth - 1159 (Pass)
Mullingar - 1249 / 1259
Dromod - 1344 / 1404
Sligo - 1505 Arrival.

Loco + 6 RPSI MkII shunt to Sligo Loop to run round.

Sligo - 1600 Departure
Ballymote - 1625 / 1633
Boyle - 1648 / 1658
Train then operates straight to Connolly , Passing ;
Longford 1747, Mullingar 1814, Maynooth 1849,
Dublin Connolly - 1927 Arrival via Newcommen.

Dublin Connolly - 1950 departure
Drogheda - 2031 / 2033
Dundalk - 2057 (Pass)
Portadown - 2133 / 2135
Lisburn - 2158 / 2200
Belfast Central - 2215 / 2225
Whitehead RPSI - 2257 Arrival

Locomotive and pathing requests subject to alterations on the day.

dowlingm

UNPOPULAR OPINION INCOMING, BRACE YOURSELVES

GAA specials are providing a private organisation with a significant benefit. In order to run such services, IE has to roster staff, get slots organised and obtain equipment often at reasonably short notice. Enthusiast and concert specials at least can be organised to fit more easily into IE's operations, whereas GAA fixture setters need not worry about that.

So: if IE want to get out of the special business because it imposes more overall costs than the revenue and because the state won't/can't subvent it, they should be allowed to do so without moaning and groaning from people on here. If it is deemed necessary to reduce the number of cars coming into Dublin, that can be done with park and ride arrangements for additional non-reserved suburban services... or by not ramming every half-significant GAA match into Croke Park when there are other, closer stadia available.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

UNPOPULAR OPINION INCOMING, BRACE YOURSELVES

GAA specials are providing a private organisation with a significant benefit. In order to run such services, IE has to roster staff, get slots organised and obtain equipment often at reasonably short notice. Enthusiast and concert specials at least can be organised to fit more easily into IE's operations, whereas GAA fixture setters need not worry about that.

So: if IE want to get out of the special business because it imposes more overall costs than the revenue and because the state won't/can't subvent it, they should be allowed to do so without moaning and groaning from people on here. If it is deemed necessary to reduce the number of cars coming into Dublin, that can be done with park and ride arrangements for additional non-reserved suburban services... or by not ramming every half-significant GAA match into Croke Park when there are other, closer stadia available.

IE make a lot of money from them, most destinations have one or two trains sitting idle most Sundays while restoring an extra driver or two is not a big problem and if I am not mistaking drivers have to be available on certain days to operate whatever services they are told if the need arises.

The whole path thing is a lazy excuse considering most specials have operated on the same paths since 2013 timetable change with only minor changes.

At times it can be difficult with replays where they might only have 6 days notice to arrange services which is understandable however in a lot of cases they have 2-4 weeks.

Whoever looks after operations must hate the Mayo team, they might do a hat trick and force another replay in September and win nothing again!

Del.Monte

In fairness now, the railway would be a great little operation if only there were no trains or pesky passengers.

marno21

dowlingm wrote: »

UNPOPULAR OPINION INCOMING, BRACE YOURSELVES

GAA specials are providing a private organisation with a significant benefit. In order to run such services, IE has to roster staff, get slots organised and obtain equipment often at reasonably short notice. Enthusiast and concert specials at least can be organised to fit more easily into IE's operations, whereas GAA fixture setters need not worry about that.

So: if IE want to get out of the special business because it imposes more overall costs than the revenue and because the state won't/can't subvent it, they should be allowed to do so without moaning and groaning from people on here. If it is deemed necessary to reduce the number of cars coming into Dublin, that can be done with park and ride arrangements for additional non-reserved suburban services... or by not ramming every half-significant GAA match into Croke Park when there are other, closer stadia available.

Sorry, but this is bollix. Irish Rail, as a public transport company publicly controlled, should be in existance to provide transport for passengers as they require, not to suit the drivers or the signalmen etc. In this instance you have 40k+ people from Mayo all going to the one destination in Dublin city centre. It would be ludicrous NOT to provide additional services for this demand.

And about your Park and Ride, the Luas Park & Rides at Red Cow and Cheeverstown were packed to bursting for the Cork-Waterford hurling semi final 5 hours before the match, and the Luas services themselves were jammed too. This is in addition to heavy congestion on the N7/M7 approach to Dublin. Given that there are railways all the way to Cork, Mayo and Waterford it would make sense to carry the passengers all the way from their respective counties.

goingnowhere

If they are bankrupt they can't exactly spend money can they?

If the state funds Irish Rail to do this, well that would be great, but the state actually charges Irish Rail to run extra trains

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

If they are bankrupt they can't exactly spend money can they?

If the state funds Irish Rail to do this, well that would be great, but the state actually charges Irish Rail to run extra trains

indeed and as i said before that needs to be stopped as it discourages operating extra services in turn disbenefiting the public.

howiya

goingnowhere wrote: »

If they are bankrupt they can't exactly spend money can they?

If the state funds Irish Rail to do this, well that would be great, but the state actually charges Irish Rail to run extra trains

I don't agree with the State charging Irish rail to run extra trains but why should the State fund IR to run extra trains for these matches when demand is so high.

If IR can't manage to sell out a special on All-Ireland Semi Final or Final day and make a few quid more than it costs then they shouldn't really be in the business.

This sort of thing should be money for jam.

91wx763

And ironically the headline on the morning news bulletins on Dubyellor (WLR, Waterford Local Radio) was this today. http://www.wlrfm.com/2017/08/29/the-limerick-junction-to-waterford-route-is-one-of-four-proposed-to-be-closed-by-irish-rail/
Sad really. I do wonder what the IÉ (mis)management will do when it's all closed down.

goingnowhere

The problem is having resources for the just in case scenario. Sure Irish Rail could fill 5 trains from Mayo but

1. Where are they going to find the trains, can't have a fleet lying around (and they have to go empty to position before and after)
2. Who will drive them, can't have staff sitting around getting paid with no work to do just in case

Dublin commuter area is different as lots of trains available but even so turning up drivers is a problem

So if you want the ability to support large events someone somewhere is going to have to pay

dowlingm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The problem is having resources for the just in case scenario. Sure Irish Rail could fill 5 trains from Mayo but

1. Where are they going to find the trains, can't have a fleet lying around (and they have to go empty to position before and after)
2. Who will drive them, can't have staff sitting around getting paid with no work to do just in case

Dublin commuter area is different as lots of trains available but even so turning up drivers is a problem

So if you want the ability to support large events someone somewhere is going to have to pay

Irish Rail must pay. From their store of gold in the dragon's cave under Inchicore Works. Apparently.

91wx763

On a lighter note, does anyone recall what was the situation concerned in this anecdote...... http://russianside.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/all-ireland-sunday-getting-to-match.html

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.