Aer Lingus staffing issues

Locker10a

Dardania wrote: »

We can see why there's been so little investment in the short haul fleet here - it's loss making apparently:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-warns-it-faces-turbulent-times-as-lowcost-norwegian-and-ryanair-threaten-its-market-share-35957841.html

Not mentioned is the effect of connecting passengers onto long haul...

I was always under the impression the short haul was profitable in EI, especially over the past 10/15 years since it was reformed.

Bussywussy

Locker10a wrote: »

I was always under the impression the short haul was profitable in EI, especially over the past 10/15 years since it was reformed.

It is,its just scaremongering,management know the staff are close to breaking point due to their penny pinching

alancostello

Bussywussy wrote: »

It is,its just scaremongering,management know the staff are close to breaking point due to their penny pinching

Exactly. EI is the most profitable division of IAG, they're trying to section everything off to make themselves look poor when crews come for higher wages.

Bussywussy

lxflyer wrote: »

Bizarrely enough every company has to market itself - this chestnut keeps coming up - companies have to promote themselves to the public.

Would you prefer EI did no marketing whatsoever?

suppose with the ****storm thats coming...

LXFlyer

Bussywussy wrote: »

suppose with the ****storm thats coming...

So is that advice to us not to book EI flights?

Anytime companies have pay/conditions disputes, the marketing spend is brought up, but it's a complete red herring - they have to advertise.

Locker10a

lxflyer wrote: »

Bussywussy wrote: »

suppose with the ****storm thats coming...

So is that advice to us not to book EI flights?

Anytime companies have pay/conditions disputes, the marketing spend is brought up, but it's a complete red herring - they have to advertise.

A vote for industrial action is standard practice at EI in resolving disputes, it generally doesn't come to fruition. Let's hope not anyway

Bussywussy

Locker10a wrote: »

A vote for industrial action is standard practice at EI in resolving disputes, it generally doesn't come to fruition. Let's hope not anyway

Agreed,but it's at tipping point and there's nowhere where staff can increase productivity

Open Up

It's been said in the past that the shorthaul business is loss-making in all but the busy summer months. Not sure of concrete sources off the top of my head but I heard Stephen Kavanagh mention it in a presentation before he was CEO.

A huge issue facing the airline is the staff members on older legacy contracts that are earning, in all honesty, outrageous salaries for the work being done.

Open Up

moloner4 wrote: »

Most staff aren't on outrageous salaries I can tell you.

I said the ones on older legacy contracts.

Locker10a

Open Up wrote: »

It's been said in the past that the shorthaul business is loss-making in all but the busy summer months. Not sure of concrete sources off the top of my head but I heard Stephen Kavanagh mention it in a presentation before he was CEO.

A huge issue facing the airline is the staff members on older legacy contracts that are earning, in all honesty, outrageous salaries for the work being done.

There's a tiny portion of these staff left now, the majority have been bought out over the past 10-15 years.
I don't have hard evidence but I'd happily guess that the current EI work force are the youngest and leanest they've ever been. Most staff now(cabin crew/ground staff) are under the age of 30, and on the lower scale pay rates.

Dardania

Locker10a wrote: »

Open Up wrote: »

It's been said in the past that the shorthaul business is loss-making in all but the busy summer months. Not sure of concrete sources off the top of my head but I heard Stephen Kavanagh mention it in a presentation before he was CEO.

A huge issue facing the airline is the staff members on older legacy contracts that are earning, in all honesty, outrageous salaries for the work being done.

There's a tiny portion of these staff left now, the majority have been bought out over the past 10-15 years.
I don't have hard evidence but I'd happily guess that the current EI work force are the youngest and leanest they've ever been. Most staff now(cabin crew/ground staff) are under the age of 30, and on the lower scale pay rates.

Roughly speaking , what are those pay scales? They mention pursers I think in the article, but that would only be a quarter ish of a cabin crew, so not wholly representative

Locker10a

Dardania wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Open Up wrote: »

It's been said in the past that the shorthaul business is loss-making in all but the busy summer months. Not sure of concrete sources off the top of my head but I heard Stephen Kavanagh mention it in a presentation before he was CEO.

A huge issue facing the airline is the staff members on older legacy contracts that are earning, in all honesty, outrageous salaries for the work being done.

There's a tiny portion of these staff left now, the majority have been bought out over the past 10-15 years.
I don't have hard evidence but I'd happily guess that the current EI work force are the youngest and leanest they've ever been. Most staff now(cabin crew/ground staff) are under the age of 30, and on the lower scale pay rates.

Roughly speaking , what are those pay scales? They mention pursers I think in the article, but that would only be a quarter ish of a cabin crew, so not wholly representative

The pursers mentioned are a tiny tiny fraction from my understanding, only the A330 carries a cabin service manager/purser and the pay mentioned for the role in the article would be top of the pay scale after probably 20 years seniority, but I'm not certain on this.
Most flights would operate with just cabin crew and 1 senior crew member.

Open Up

Dardania wrote: »

Roughly speaking , what are those pay scales? They mention pursers I think in the article, but that would only be a quarter ish of a cabin crew, so not wholly representative

In a row of 4 I was sitting beside 2 today in my office... This isn't representative at all of course but there's an example. Speaking of proportions here or course, not salaries...

alancostello

Locker10a wrote: »

The pursers mentioned are a tiny tiny fraction from my understanding, only the A330 carries a cabin service manager/purser and the pay mentioned for the role in the article would be top of the pay scale after probably 20 years seniority, but I'm not certain on this.
Most flights would operate with just cabin crew and 1 senior crew member.

Out of curiosity, is senior cabin crew a promotion or just a given after x years of service?

Locker10a

alancostello wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

The pursers mentioned are a tiny tiny fraction from my understanding, only the A330 carries a cabin service manager/purser and the pay mentioned for the role in the article would be top of the pay scale after probably 20 years seniority, but I'm not certain on this.
Most flights would operate with just cabin crew and 1 senior crew member.

Out of curiosity, is senior cabin crew a promotion or just a given after x years of service?

It's a promotion

Tenger

alancostello wrote: »

Out of curiosity, is senior cabin crew a promotion or just a given after x years of service?

"Senior crew" in EI or "No.1s" in FR are equivalent to 'Pursers' in some other airlines.
The role mentioned (CSM) in the leaked document is an additional promotion and is based on the A330 routes and dealing with high yield Business class customers. EG. BA have Cabin Service Directors (CSD) on their longhaul flights.
So Im not sure how that 2nd rank can be easily compared in salary to a Purser at Easyjet?

I would assume of approx 1500 (?) cabin crew that more than 25% are 'seniors' (redundancy is good) Lets guess ~30%, with maybe 5 of that 30 in the top rank. So you got ~5% of your cabin crew, not all of whom can be on the top pay scale being used as proof of an arguement.

joeysoap

Whatever the merits of 5% pay claim for 3 years, there is no longer any justification for increment freezes. This effects the poorest paid (in any industry), and has little or no effect on the best paid staff as they are probably on the maximum of their scales already. I never understand why unions don't fight harder on increment freezes. To the best of my knowledge the teachers unions were at one on this, hence teachers continued to receive their rightful increments. To that end the Aer Lingus unions have let their lowest paid members down over the past few years.

Stovepipe

For want of another word, I am legacy staff in EI and I assure you that my earnings as a licensed engineer are most certainly below industry par by a long shot; we are currently the lowest paid of our trade in DUB; we have been on a pay freeze for nigh on ten years, promotion is at a standstill, trade courses have effectively ceased, 15 very experienced engrs and others have left from our department alone, with several key staff on the slide to retirement (less than 2 years remaining) and our management is playing the poor mouth at the pay talks. Incidentally, Short haul has always made money. That's just more guff from management.

Locker10a

Stovepipe wrote: »

For want of another word, I am legacy staff in EI and I assure you that my earnings as a licensed engineer are most certainly below industry par by a long shot; we are currently the lowest paid of our trade in DUB; we have been on a pay freeze for nigh on ten years, promotion is at a standstill, trade courses have effectively ceased, 15 very experienced engrs and others have left from our department alone, with several key staff on the slide to retirement (less than 2 years remaining) and our management is playing the poor mouth at the pay talks. Incidentally, Short haul has always made money. That's just more guff from management.

Agreed, of course it's vital EI remain competitive but that article has a background agend, and it's obvious that they (management) intend on offering nothing in these pay talks.
And yes short haul has always been profitable, I'm certain there has never been a scale back of short haul like there was of transatlantic services during downturns.
Of course it is a seasonal business but it is everywhere and EI respond accordingly in low season, parking aircraft, reducing schedules and operating charter work.

Bussywussy

Locker10a wrote: »

Agreed, of course it's vital EI remain competitive but that article has a background agend, and it's obvious that they (management) intend on offering nothing in these pay talks.
And yes short haul has always been profitable, I'm certain there has never been a scale back of short haul like there was of transatlantic services during downturns.
Of course it is a seasonal business but it is everywhere and EI respond accordingly in low season, parking aircraft, reducing schedules and operating charter work.

There's being competitive and there's taking the mickey...the latter is what's going on..if another airbus operator(WOW) set up in dublin or anywhere in Ireland like Norweigen, EI will be cleaned out of staff,especially engineering.

Dardania

Bussywussy wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Agreed,  of course it's vital EI remain competitive but that article has a background agend, and it's obvious that they (management) intend on offering nothing in these pay talks.
And yes short haul has always been profitable, I'm certain there has never been a scale back of short haul like there was of transatlantic services during downturns.
Of course it is a seasonal business but it is everywhere and EI respond accordingly in low season, parking aircraft, reducing schedules and operating charter work.

There's being competitive and there's taking the mickey...the latter is what's going on..if another airbus operator(WOW) set up in dublin or anywhere in Ireland like Norweigen, EI will be cleaned out of staff,especially engineering.

Without being inflammatory (I genuinely mean this) - what's stopping those are unhappy with their wages from retraining (e.g. from Airbus to Boeing) and applying elsewhere? Surely the principles are similar, and the experience is valid...many US carriers operate mixed fleets

trellheim

Pension usually.

Open Up

Stovepipe wrote: »

For want of another word, I am legacy staff in EI and I assure you that my earnings as a licensed engineer are most certainly below industry par by a long shot; we are currently the lowest paid of our trade in DUB; we have been on a pay freeze for nigh on ten years, promotion is at a standstill, trade courses have effectively ceased, 15 very experienced engrs and others have left from our department alone, with several key staff on the slide to retirement (less than 2 years remaining) and our management is playing the poor mouth at the pay talks. Incidentally, Short haul has always made money. That's just more guff from management.

This certainly may be the case in M&E, but when I work along side someone doing the exact same job, earning practically twice what I earn, I find it difficult to believe it isn't replicated in other areas of the business. But yes, the numbers on these contracts are probably small now, but still there.

Bussywussy

Dardania wrote: »

Without being inflammatory (I genuinely mean this) - what's stopping those are unhappy with their wages from retraining (e.g. from Airbus to Boeing) and applying elsewhere? Surely the principles are similar, and the experience is valid...many US carriers operate mixed fleets

Forking out for a type rating theory course and forking out as well as organising for the practical training...

Pension? I think not.

Tenger

Dardania wrote: »

Without being inflammatory (I genuinely mean this) - what's stopping those are unhappy with their wages from retraining (e.g. from Airbus to Boeing) and applying elsewhere? Surely the principles are similar, and the experience is valid...many US carriers operate mixed fleets

The issue with airlines in general is that seniority is usually very important. By leaving you give up your seniority and start at the bottom elsewhere.
Add to that the somewhat limited options based in Ireland.

trellheim

The issue with airlines in general is that seniority is usually very important. By leaving you give up your seniority and start at the bottom elsewhere.
Add to that the somewhat limited options based in Ireland.

Seniority is only for certain occupations in the airline. ( not, for example, IT, as moving between companies is the norm )

Stovepipe

Why would you stay? One word: Mortgage. The pension has been slaughtered; mine will be 20% lighter before I get a cent of it......most of those who have left have gone to leasing companies, as it happens.