Season 7 Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" - "Book readers"

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I never said there was mention. I said there were hints and allusions.

Of a marriage? You'll have to remind me because my recollection is the very vague possibilty of Lyanna's acquiescence to the 'kidnapping'.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

As for the character having flashbacks, no, of course that didn't happen in the books - it was on the show. I trust you remember.

I do. I just don't understand why you brought it up in a discussion about book references.

EagererBeaver

Well no, I merely responded to your statement that there was nothing in the books.

J. Marston

pinkypinky wrote: »

Wasn't Howland Reed there? He's never appeared in the show but it would be easy for Meera to introduce her father.

The show made a point of introducing him in the Tower of Joy flashback. They probably wouldn't do it for no reason. I think we'll see him at some point. Maybe word is sent to him from Winterfell and he arrives to bring Meera home.

podgemonster

J. Marston wrote: »

The show made a point of introducing him in the Tower of Joy flashback. They probably wouldn't do it for no reason. I think we'll see him at some point. Maybe word is sent to him from Winterfell and he arrives to bring Meera home.

Reed had to be there though as Dayne was about to send Ned to meet the old gods. No way could Ned have survived that.

It would be seriously cool to meet Howland Reed though, who'd play him? Gabriel Byrne would be great.

Skyrimaddict

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Really? There's been stuff in the TV show about Jon's parents maybe being married? I missed all that.

There's discussions about Tyrion's parentage

There's other stuff in the backstory in the books that is particularly pertinent now - Field of Fyre for example.

The jist of what I'm saying: there's plenty of room for two threads, get over it.

Having read all the books, twice, I dont see anywhere it suggested the Rhaeger and Lyanna got married. Yes there is talk they loved each other and he obviously ran away with her, but even in the books I dont think it has been confirmed
I also dont think the books had confirmed that Jon is their child.
there is a good bit from Season 6 which has over taken the books, and now season 7 is outside them completely.

While I get the point of two threads and am "over it" I dont see the point of not using book based information on how this season "should be" if you had followed the books.

CMOTDibbler

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

While I get the point of two threads and am "over it" I dont see the point of not using book based information on how this season "should be" if you had followed the books.

The best reason I can think of is that it's for people who haven't read the books yet but are watching the show, won't have the books spoiled for them should they decide to read them now or later.

Plus it can create confusion if book stuff is referred to on the TV thread and not presented as such.

Skyrimaddict

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The best reason I can think of is that it's for people who haven't read the books yet but are watching the show, won't have the books spoiled for them should they decide to read them now or later.

Plus it can create confusion if book stuff is referred to on the TV thread and not presented as such.

I more mean why is the TV stuff being said here and bypassing what the books would have been.
Generally in books by now we have a different Targaryeon in Westeros with one of the best fighting groups ever.

pinkypinky

J. Marston wrote: »

The show made a point of introducing him in the Tower of Joy flashback. They probably wouldn't do it for no reason. I think we'll see him at some point. Maybe word is sent to him from Winterfell and he arrives to bring Meera home.

Sorry - I meant outside that flashback. He's the key to back-up the story. Why else would the Kingsguard be there if not to guard a member of the royal family? To my mind, them being there is tantamount to stating that R+L married in secret.

CMOTDibbler

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I more mean why is the TV stuff being said here and bypassing what the books would have been.
Generally in books by now we have a different Targaryeon in Westeros with one of the best fighting groups ever.

The clue is in the thread title and forum name/forum parent.

I think there are threads solely on the books over on the literature forum. Since we're past the books at this stage, it's hard to seperate the two. Some stuff is definitely different, but the main character's arcs are probably much the same. If we (or GRRM) live long enough for us to find out.

rawn

pinkypinky wrote:

Sorry - I meant outside that flashback. He's the key to back-up the story. Why else would the Kingsguard be there if not to guard a member of the royal family? To my mind, them being there is tantamount to stating that R+L married in secret.

There's an even more likely theory that Jon's parents were actually Ned and Ashara Dayne 😀

Grassey

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Ah what's the hurry? Surely a man with this physique has another 20 years at least to play with?

We might get lucky and get Sanderson to finish them off, a la Wheel of time.

Kunkka

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There is some speculation that this guy talking to Bran in one of the season 7 trailers might be HR

Looks like the new Winterfell Maestor I think?

CMOTDibbler

Kunkka wrote: »

Looks like the new Winterfell Maestor I think?

Actually no. This is Maester Wolkan:

EagererBeaver

So? You can't see the guy's face in the first photo, could easily be him.

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

So? You can't see the guy's face in the first photo, could easily be him.

The baldy bits are completely different. Also the first guy has big ears. Hair colouring is also different. A beard doesn't seem evident either.

matrim

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There is some speculation that ...

There's a speculation thread for those kind of images / talk.

Nerdlingr

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There is some speculation that ...[/IMG]

Yeah, can we not have any speculation images/screen grabs on this thread please? I've avoided all trailers for this season and would rather not see images of upcoming episodes appearing on a present episode thread. :)
Ta ta.

Gbear

I've enjoyed this series of reviews:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=36666

There's quite a lot of pages of it. It pretty much reviews season 6 from 3 different angles.

Mostly it rips the piss out of the show for what a load of absolute nonsense they've become in the last couple of series.
That's not to say that it says the shows are completely terrible.
Just that they're nonsense.

CMOTDibbler

Gbear wrote: »

I've enjoyed this series of reviews:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=36666

There's quite a lot of pages of it. It pretty much reviews season 6 from 3 different angles.

Mostly it rips the piss out of the show for what a load of absolute nonsense they've become in the last couple of series.
That's not to say that it says the shows are completely terrible.
Just that they're nonsense.

He certainly doesn't like the writers. That's for sure. So much so that he's actually attributing things that GRRM wrote to them.

I'm referring to his diatribe about Jon's death. Now, perhaps that's not what actually happened in ADWD, but it's so close as to be indistinguishable. In other words, whatever has befallen Jon at the end of ADWD will require a similar plot device to get him out of it.

I'd give him a pass on his diatribe on that basis except he makes absolutely no reference to ADWD in the criticism.

In some ways, it reads like one of those conspiracy theories about 9/11. It sounds good until you realise what they've left out to advance their theory.

Liam O

rawn wrote: »

There's an even more likely theory that Jon's parents were actually Ned and Ashara Dayne ��

I don't think that's more likely than R+L at all?

Jons parentage was guessed long ago. Anything said to the contrary is a diversion.

rawn

Liam O wrote: »

I don't think that's more likely than R+L at all?

Jons parentage was guessed long ago. Anything said to the contrary is a diversion.

Or maybe the popular theory is a diversion :eek:

They met at the same tourney Rhaegar met Lyanna. Ned visits Ashara after the Tower of Joy to return her brother's sword. He leaves the bones of his friends but goes out of the way to return the sword? She miscarries a child and throws herself into the ocean, no body found. Ned returns home with Jon.

In his POV chapters, when he thinks of bastards he doesn't think of Jon. He thinks of Jon when he thinks of his children.

Liam O

rawn wrote: »

Or maybe the popular theory is a diversion :eek:

They met at the same tourney Rhaegar met Lyanna. Ned visits Ashara after the Tower of Joy to return her brother's sword. He leaves the bones of his friends but goes out of the way to return the sword? She miscarries a child and throws herself into the ocean, no body found. Ned returns home with Jon.

In his POV chapters, when he thinks of bastards he doesn't think of Jon. He thinks of Jon when he thinks of his children.

Not much of a diversion when the majority of the people in Westeros think it true. The other stories that have been heard throughout the books are clearly a running joke that has been put in by GRRM.

He returned the family sword because he is a man of honour. Who was married and doesn't do dishonourable things such as impregnate people who aren't his wife.

He doesn't think of Jon as a bastard because he is his nephew.

rawn

Liam O wrote: »

Not much of a diversion when the majority of the people in Westeros think it true. The other stories that have been heard throughout the books are clearly a running joke that has been put in by GRRM.

He returned the family sword because he is a man of honour. Who was married and doesn't do dishonourable things such as impregnate people who aren't his wife.

He doesn't think of Jon as a bastard because he is his nephew.

This is a great discussion for another thread but I'll just leave this here, he explains it better than I ever could! It's just another theory, I find it a bit more plausible than R + L = J but that's just me

Gbear

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He certainly doesn't like the writers. That's for sure. So much so that he's actually attributing things that GRRM wrote to them.

I'm referring to his diatribe about Jon's death. Now, perhaps that's not what actually happened in ADWD, but it's so close as to be indistinguishable. In other words, whatever has befallen Jon at the end of ADWD will require a similar plot device to get him out of it.

The bits he took issue with about Jon's death were from season 6 and not written by Martin. He hasn't written for the show since season 4.

If GRRM makes it daft and arbitrary then we can slag him off then, but he's generally avoided doing that in the books thus far, with fairly-well defined rules that make the universe coherent.

There's any number of consistent in-universe ways that JS can survive. It's been endlessly speculated on since before it aired on TV - maybe Mel wil sacrifice Shireen, maybe she'll sacrifice Ghost; who knows.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd give him a pass on his diatribe on that basis except he makes absolutely no reference to ADWD in the criticism.

In some ways, it reads like one of those conspiracy theories about 9/11. It sounds good until you realise what they've left out to advance their theory.

The show needs to stand on its own merits and make sense on its own, so while he's free to contrast with the books, there's no requirement to do so.

Your criticism is weak without mentioning what was appraently left out.

There's a measure of trust being extended to GRRM about how he's going to handle this scene, and that it's expected to make sense in a way it doesn't in the show, but, admittedly, that's based on what has come before.

It could be that he makes a balls of it as well.
At any rate, that wouldn't be relevant to the criticism of the show.

CMOTDibbler

Gbear wrote: »

Your criticism is weak without mentioning what was appraently left out.

There's a measure of trust being extended to GRRM about how he's going to handle this scene, and that it's expected to make sense in a way it doesn't in the show, but, admittedly, that's based on what has come before.

It could be that he makes a balls of it as well.
At any rate, that wouldn't be relevant to the criticism of the show.

I can't really discuss this here without going way off topic. For me, it read as a lot of puffery about his own cleverness followed by a very sparse critique of the show without any semblance of balance to the criticism. He asks a lot of "why did they do this?" or "why did X do that?" questions which I've seen before on other fora and which have been discussed at length with many of those questions answered plausibly. He doesn't even attempt to do that. He even starts the whole series of blogs with a "I hate this show" diatribe.

He predicts people walking away from it and it collapsing. Yet year on year it extends its viewership. The first episode of season seven had over thirty million veiwers across all HBO's available platforms.

CMOTDibbler

rawn wrote: »

This is a great discussion for another thread but I'll just leave this here, he explains it better than I ever could! It's just another theory, I find it a bit more plausible than R + L = J but that's just me

Here's a full examination of all the different theories. It's a bit more... coherent.

Danjamin1

Gbear wrote: »

maybe she'll sacrifice Ghost; who knows.

:eek: I hope to f**k that doesn't happen!!

Danjamin1

pinkypinky wrote: »

I actually think he's lost the agency to finish his own story. The TV is the canon now and I think far fewer people will read the books, particularly when they remember how meandering the last book was. He sorely needed an editor.

If that's the case I'm disappointed, the show will always be canon for me & the show is a poor substitute, kinda like fan fiction at this stage. When it was based directly on the books the show was brilliant, but I don't think Weiss & Benioff's writing is up to scratch. I'm still eagerly anticipating an announcement from GRRM on WOW.

Thargor

wp_rathead wrote: »

My prediction for Yara:

To be tied to the prow of The Silence with her tongue cut out like the Falia Flowers character

Thats a good call, Id say we could see that happening alright.

Then again since they got ahead of GRRM my opinion of the shows writers gets lower every week so she'll probably just escape and kill Euron in some unlikely and lazy way.