Lime - how much do you spread?

patsy_mccabe

Tested all the fields here a few years back. Slowly getting around to putting out lime, spreading a few fields every year. Just wondering when I do get the PH right, how much on average, will I need to spread every year to keep it right.
I know it all depends on soil type, amount of fertiliser/urea spread but would 0.5Tonne/acre be about average or would less do?

Who2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Tested all the fields here a few years back. Slowly getting around to putting out lime, spreading a few fields every year. Just wondering when I do get the PH right, how much on average, will I need to spread every year to keep it right.
I know it all depends on soil type, amount of fertiliser/urea spread but would 0.5Tonne/acre be about average or would less do?

if you can get a lad to spread it at .5ton to the acre, youll be doing well.

patsy_mccabe

Who2 wrote: »

if you can get a lad to spread it at .5ton to the acre, youll be doing well.

That's not what I meant. I meant 0.5Tonne as an average. 2 tonne/acre every 4 years in the real world.

freedominacup

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Tested all the fields here a few years back. Slowly getting around to putting out lime, spreading a few fields every year. Just wondering when I do get the PH right, how much on average, will I need to spread every year to keep it right.
I know it all depends on soil type, amount of fertiliser/urea spread but would 0.5Tonne/acre be about average or would less do?

Depending on Sr and N usage you'll use about .5 t/acre/year. Once you get ph right basically cover quarter of the farm every year with 2t/acre to keep it right. Keeps the bill manageable too.

Username John

I spread about 13 or 14 ton on Saturday...

With a vicon spreader...

And yes, I had to shovel it in...

Worked away fine tho, slow going all right... but now that I know it works, will do the same very year...

DaDerv

freedominacup wrote:

Depending on Sr and N usage you'll use about .5 t/acre/year. Once you get ph right basically cover quarter of the farm every year with 2t/acre to keep it right. Keeps the bill manageable too.

Be very careful spreading too much Lime. Can create a copper deficiency in cattle and you could be in trouble. Safer to do a few acres every year. 1.5-2 tonne per acre more than that is considered a waste. Depending on the N-P-K of the soil too you could look at what fertiliser you're using. I have to put out more 10-10-20 now. Apparently that's the case as potash wasnt allowed during reps years and people put out too much nitrogen.

Who2

Username John wrote: »

I spread about 13 or 14 ton on Saturday...

With a vicon spreader...

And yes, I had to shovel it in...

Worked away fine tho, slow going all right... but now that I know it works, will do the same very year...

could you see in front or were you in plumes of dust?

Who2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's not what I meant. I meant 0.5Tonne as an average. 2 tonne/acre every 4 years in the real world.[/

id say youd be covering it alright at that.

Username John

Who2 wrote: »

could you see in front or were you in plumes of dust?

No, twasnt too bad... it was a savage still day though... if the wind was against me it would have been worse all right...

The part time boy

How much did you save by spreading it your self ?

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

How much did you save by spreading it your self ?

Oh, I would have gladly paid the fiver per ton to spread it...
GLADLY!

But it was in small high awkward fields Part-time, fields that a big trailed spreader wouldn't be any good in...
I got the contractor in to spread the places he could work in last year all right...

The part time boy

Ah glad to see your not total mad

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

Ah glad to see your not total mad

I dunno... still mad enough that I'm debating whether to spread one field with a shovel, and not the spreader... (its too high for the tractor to spread it)

Soil sample shows it has a ph of 5.5... I don't think granlime is going to cut it at that low a level...

Username John

DaDerv wrote: »

Be very careful spreading too much Lime. Can create a copper deficiency in cattle and you could be in trouble. Safer to do a few acres every year. 1.5-2 tonne per acre more than that is considered a waste. Depending on the N-P-K of the soil too you could look at what fertiliser you're using. I have to put out more 10-10-20 now. Apparently that's the case as potash wasnt allowed during reps years and people put out too much nitrogen.

Why is more than 2 ton per acre considered a waste?
I thought they recommended you could spread up to 3 ton at one time?

I think last year, we put out 3 ton / acre...

kowtow

Username John wrote: »

I dunno... still mad enough that I'm debating whether to spread one field with a shovel, and not the spreader... (its too high for the tractor to spread it)

Soil sample shows it has a ph of 5.5... I don't think granlime is going to cut it at that low a level...

Have you a quad spreader.?

Username John

kowtow wrote: »

Have you a quad spreader.?

Nope, and I wouldn't ask anyone to go in there with a quad. It was reseeded with a quad last year, and the quad went over once...

If it gets lime, it will either be me with a shovel or me with a bucket of granlime...

If i had a 4wd, I might chance it, but I'd prefer to go into it with a tractor than a quad to be honest...

I chanced going across a bit of it on Sunday, but one back wheel was soft maybe, as the tyre kinda went sideways under the tractor and the outside rim was almost on the ground... balls of a job...

satstheway

kowtow wrote: »

Have you a quad spreader.?

Will a quad spreader put on ordinary lime

Mooooo

Username John wrote: »

Nope, and I wouldn't ask anyone to go in there with a quad. It was reseeded with a quad last year, and the quad went over once...

If it gets lime, it will either be me with a shovel or me with a bucket of granlime...

If i had a 4wd, I might chance it, but I'd prefer to go into it with a tractor than a quad to be honest...

I chanced going across a bit of it on Sunday, but one back wheel was soft maybe, as the tyre kinda went sideways under the tractor and the outside rim was almost on the ground... balls of a job...

Would it be safer to back up and drive down? Be careful anyway if ground is that steep and it goes over doesn't matter what your in as it will keep rolling not just turn over. Tbh id leave ground like that off nearly

kowtow

Username John wrote: »

Nope, and I wouldn't ask anyone to go in there with a quad. It was reseeded with a quad last year, and the quad went over once...

If it gets lime, it will either be me with a shovel or me with a bucket of granlime...

If i had a 4wd, I might chance it, but I'd prefer to go into it with a tractor than a quad to be honest...

I chanced going across a bit of it on Sunday, but one back wheel was soft maybe, as the tyre kinda went sideways under the tractor and the outside rim was almost on the ground... balls of a job...

What you need is a few bags of granlime, a ground driven quad spreader, and a very quiet pony.

patsy_mccabe

Bredal make a tractor mounted Lime Spreader. Saw the odd one advertised on Donedeal.

http://www.bredal.com/en/Products/SG-Series/SGlift

Green farmer

This might have suited you John, particularly from the 6th minute on.

https://youtu.be/bbDkFxqujfI

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Tested all the fields here a few years back. Slowly getting around to putting out lime, spreading a few fields every year. Just wondering when I do get the PH right, how much on average, will I need to spread every year to keep it right.
I know it all depends on soil type, amount of fertiliser/urea spread but would 0.5Tonne/acre be about average or would less do?

I think Ger Courtney from The Teagasc/Kerry Heavy soils programme was saying you would have to put on 350kgs of lime/acre/year to cater for rainfall and takeoff from animals so more like 1.5t every 4 years.

The top lads on grass growing are going out with lime every year now with all land soil tested each year to max out growing power.

White Clover

Username John wrote: »

Nope, and I wouldn't ask anyone to go in there with a quad. It was reseeded with a quad last year, and the quad went over once...

If it gets lime, it will either be me with a shovel or me with a bucket of granlime...

If i had a 4wd, I might chance it, but I'd prefer to go into it with a tractor than a quad to be honest...

I chanced going across a bit of it on Sunday, but one back wheel was soft maybe, as the tyre kinda went sideways under the tractor and the outside rim was almost on the ground... balls of a job...

If you had double wheels John, you'd probably gamble it away if twas dry.

Bass Reeves

Username John wrote: »

I dunno... still mad enough that I'm debating whether to spread one field with a shovel, and not the spreader... (its too high for the tractor to spread it)

Soil sample shows it has a ph of 5.5... I don't think granlime is going to cut it at that low a level...

You would be surprised with granlime. There is also another granulated lime it is a burnt(hydrated lime) it has nearly twice the neutralizing value of gran/g-lime. However you need to spred it before rain as it could burn the ground.

The real trick with these products is to spread as early as possible in the year.This means that all of it neutralizing value is used up in that year. I saw figure where with ground lime 350kgs/ are washed away(in this case too deep for soil us) in the first year when spread at 2T/acre.

At a normal spreading rate by hand and bucket is about 100kgs/acre if I remember right. You be a long time spreading bulk lime with a shovel.

The part time boy

Btw how much is a Tonne of lime including spreading ?

Wildsurfer

The part time boy wrote: »

Btw how much is a Tonne of lime including spreading ?

€23/T delivered and spread in my area

Username John

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You would be surprised with granlime. There is also another granulated lime it is a burnt(hydrated lime) it has nearly twice the neutralizing value of gran/g-lime. However you need to spred it before rain as it could burn the ground.

The real trick with these products is to spread as early as possible in the year.This means that all of it neutralizing value is used up in that year. I saw figure where with ground lime 350kgs/ are washed away(in this case too deep for soil us) in the first year when spread at 2T/acre.

At a normal spreading rate by hand and bucket is about 100kgs/acre if I remember right. You be a long time spreading bulk lime with a shovel.

Do you know the name of that lime Bass?

As for spreading it with a shovel, if you tore into it, you'd be surprised what you'd get done in a day too... but it's not a job you'd like to do too often all right

So you say early springtime is the best time to go with the gran lime option... I might do that...

patsy_mccabe

The part time boy wrote: »

Btw how much is a Tonne of lime including spreading ?

24€/Tonne spread here in East Clare. Some coming tomorrow.

patsy_mccabe

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You would be surprised with granlime. There is also another granulated lime it is a burnt(hydrated lime) it has nearly twice the neutralizing value of gran/g-lime. However you need to spred it before rain as it could burn the ground.

The real trick with these products is to spread as early as possible in the year.This means that all of it neutralizing value is used up in that year. I saw figure where with ground lime 350kgs/ are washed away(in this case too deep for soil us) in the first year when spread at 2T/acre.

At a normal spreading rate by hand and bucket is about 100kgs/acre if I remember right. You be a long time spreading bulk lime with a shovel.

Not for silage ground though. Better to spread after silage is cut. On a cost basis, no comparison between Granlime and ordinary Aglime. Both made from the same stuff at the end of the day.

Username John

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Not for silage ground though. Better to spread after silage is cut. On a cost basis, no comparison between Granlime and ordinary Aglime. Both made from the same stuff at the end of the day.

Is the same issue with silage fermenting present for granlime as well Patsy?

patsy_mccabe

Username John wrote: »

Is the same issue with silage fermenting present for granlime as well Patsy?

Don't know, to be honest. It depends how much of it gets into the silage.
I see that Gouldings don't mention using it before silage in their literature. Maybe there's a reason for that.

http://www.gouldings.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Granlime-leaflet-right-way-up.pdf

Bass Reeves

Username John wrote: »

Is the same issue with silage fermenting present for granlime as well Patsy?

I have used it before silage and between first and second cut. However I graze the paddocks before first cut so lime is going on bare paddocks after slurry is spread. Never an issue. You are dealing with a totally different product to agri lime. Forst off over 90% is below 10 microns if I remember right as opposed. It is 100% water soulable so will be totally available after rain anwill dissolve onto ground. It can be spread at the same time urea or an N fertlizer provided it is spread seprately. There are some Nitrogen products that are now available with calcium(granulated lime) taht are targeted for early spreading. Last february I spread Granlime and Urea on about 10 acres itr was like rocket fuel on the place

Bullocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have used it before silage and between first and second cut. However I graze the paddocks before first cut so lime is going on bare paddocks after slurry is spread. Never an issue. You are dealing with a totally different product to agri lime. Forst off over 90% is below 10 microns if I remember right as opposed. It is 100% water soulable so will be totally available after rain anwill dissolve onto ground. It can be spread at the same time urea or an N fertlizer provided it is spread seprately. There are some Nitrogen products that are now available with calcium(granulated lime) taht are targeted for early spreading. Last february I spread Granlime and Urea on about 10 acres itr was like rocket fuel on the place

I thought you had to leave a break between gran lime and urea . If it works like that it would be mighty in spring

Bass Reeves

Bullocks wrote: »

I thought you had to leave a break between gran lime and urea . If it works like that it would be mighty in spring

Between ordinary lime and urea yes from what I understand it is the amount of dust involved covers all the ground. Not an issue with Granlime or any similar products such as G-Lime and I think there is a third available now as well

Username John

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Between ordinary lime and urea yes from what I understand it is the amount of dust involved covers all the ground. Not an issue with Granlime or any similar products such as G-Lime and I think there is a third available now as well

Is this it Bass?

There is a table in that page, that suggests the Neutralising Value is much higher for this, compared to lime and granlime

http://clogrennane.ie/agriculture/increase-soil-ph/

Bass Reeves

Username John wrote: »

Is this it Bass?

There is a table in that page, that suggests the Neutralising Value is much higher for this, compared to lime and granlime

http://clogrennane.ie/agriculture/increase-soil-ph/

Yes that is the one that is hydrated lime based. Make sure to soread early in the spring or before rain. It cannot be spread by hand as it is quicklime.

Username John

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes that is the one that is hydrated lime based. Make sure to soread early in the spring or before rain. It cannot be spread by hand as it is quicklime.

Hmmm, the not being able to spread by hand part doesn't suit me, as this is the reason I'd get rather than ground lime...

Bass Reeves

Username John wrote: »

Hmmm, the not being able to spread by hand part doesn't suit me, as this is the reason I'd get rather than ground lime...

Its a burnt lime product. It would be similar handling procedures. Just make sure it will not be wet when spreading. Ideally you would need one of those white disposable overalls and nitrile gloves but make sure that if they tear you can wash your hands fairly quickly and have spare gloves to continue, and a dust mask

If I am hand spreading fertlizer I use nitrile gloves. TBH gran lime is a little more expensive but you can safely spread by hand

123shooter

Is the pelleted lime as good as the normal stuff meaning does it last as long in the soil or does it get washed out so requiring more lime spread soon/more often?

Water John

Read post 35 link. Ground limestone is slower acting. It would release slower and thus last longer. Usually spread ground limestone every 3/5 years. As per OP in post 3.
Haven't used it but the Growmax every 2 years, I'd say.

Farm365

If you spread 2 tonne to the acre for two to 3yrs in a row would that be ok for fields around Ph 5 that badly need it. I know it's recommended to leave for two years before spreading again.

123shooter

Farm365 wrote: »

If you spread 2 tonne to the acre for two to 3yrs in a row would that be ok for fields around Ph 5 that badly need it. I know it's recommended to leave for two years before spreading again.

Of what normal lime or pellet lime?

Farm365

123shooter wrote: »

Of what normal lime or pellet lime?

Yep Normal lime

st1979

The way I was told at teagasc meeting was approx 30% of ground limestone is really fine. This is what they granulate and sell as bagged lime and reacts very fast. The rest of your ton of ground lime is of larger particles which take longer to break down. Some will be too big to ever breakdown but that is a small percentage. So for every ton you are getting 6 bags of gran lime.
Making granular lime too expensive

Edit
So by those calculations gran lime would need to be costing 80 a ton excluding the fact ground lime stone has another 70 percent that will keep working after the gran lime has stopped. Based on ground lime at 25 a ton. And you need to spread it yourself.
It's something I have been not spreading enough of. But am making up for this year. I am on heavy marine clay (macamore) and don't seem to lose as much as others

patsy_mccabe

Here's the particle size explained for Ground Lime and Granular Lime.

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/soil--soil-fertility/soil-ph--liming/types-of-lime/

123shooter

st1979 wrote: »

The way I was told at teagasc meeting was approx 30% of ground limestone is really fine. This is what they granulate and sell as bagged lime and reacts very fast. The rest of your ton of ground lime is of larger particles which take longer to break down. Some will be too big to ever breakdown but that is a small percentage. So for every ton you are getting 6 bags of gran lime.
Making granular lime too expensive

Edit
So by those calculations gran lime would need to be costing 80 a ton excluding the fact ground lime stone has another 70 percent that will keep working after the gran lime has stopped. Based on ground lime at 25 a ton. And you need to spread it yourself.
It's something I have been not spreading enough of. But am making up for this year. I am on heavy marine clay (macamore) and don't seem to lose as much as others

If the ground was acid then the lime will work but when the ground is neutral the ground will be alkaline until the acid returns from the rain.......is this correct?

pedigree 6

123shooter wrote: »

If the ground was acid then the lime will work but when the ground is neutral the ground will be alkaline until the acid returns from the rain.......is this correct?

The rain does lower the soil pH. (Basically why the western half of Ireland historically had poorer land. Well it's older land too.)

But other ways of lowering soil pH are nitrogen fertilisers. Urea would be worst one to do that. C.A.N wouldn't be as severe as it only has half the same type of N as urea but then it has added calcium in the form of (calcium lime ?) to reduce any acidifying effect.

Then Sulphur would be a big one too, bigger than Urea and the effects of one application in one year last longer and can carry into the next year. Soil microbes convert the elemental sulphur into sulphuric acid and only work in moist warm soil and stop over winter and then start up again in the spring when conditions are suitable again.

Bass Reeves

st1979 wrote: »

The way I was told at teagasc meeting was approx 30% of ground limestone is really fine. This is what they granulate and sell as bagged lime and reacts very fast. The rest of your ton of ground lime is of larger particles which take longer to break down. Some will be too big to ever breakdown but that is a small percentage. So for every ton you are getting 6 bags of gran lime.
Making granular lime too expensive

Edit
So by those calculations gran lime would need to be costing 80 a ton excluding the fact ground lime stone has another 70 percent that will keep working after the gran lime has stopped. Based on ground lime at 25 a ton. And you need to spread it yourself.
It's something I have been not spreading enough of. But am making up for this year. I am on heavy marine clay (macamore) and don't seem to lose as much as others

The economics of granular V Ground lime are not as simple as that. First off the effect of leeching on ground lime is not taken into account. AFAIk it accounts for 1/3 of the lime spread over 4 years if I remember right. It seems that some of it is washed away and more too deep to be effective,

The most effective of the ground lime is the dust and the portion that goes through the 0.15 mm sieve. Granalated lime is 90% less than 0.1mm. You also have to factor the fact that you can use UREA with granular lime and slurry. As well you can spread it onto silage ground in the spring.

IMO there is little in the economics of granular V ground lime when you analysis both. It is all about getting lime out and a lot of people are put off using granular when it is most suitable option by straight price comparisons. Most lads that use granular never go back to ground lime.

123shooter

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The economics of granular V Ground lime are not as simple as that. First off the effect of leeching on ground lime is not taken into account. AFAIk it accounts for 1/3 of the lime spread over 4 years if I remember right. It seems that some of it is washed away and more too deep to be effective,

The most effective of the ground lime is the dust and the portion that goes through the 0.15 mm sieve. Granalated lime is 90% less than 0.1mm. You also have to factor the fact that you can use UREA with granular lime and slurry. As well you can spread it onto silage ground in the spring.

IMO there is little in the economics of granular V ground lime when you analysis both. It is all about getting lime out and a lot of people are put off using granular when it is most suitable option by straight price comparisons. Most lads that use granular never go back to ground lime.

What difference does it make to your grass. I know it makes your bag manure more effective but I read once that land can also be mineral diffecient. Does lime help with this as well?

Bass Reeves

123shooter wrote: »

What difference does it make to your grass. I know it makes your bag manure more effective but I read once that land can also be mineral diffecient. Does lime help with this as well?

There is usually magnesium in granulated lime however that is the only mineral extra in graunlated lime V ground lime. There are slag type products that are high in trace elements but these usually trade in the 60-100 euro/ton bracket.

The main advantage of granulated lime is its flexability and it ability to be spread early in the year in any conditions.

pedigree 6

123shooter wrote: »

What difference does it make to your grass. I know it makes your bag manure more effective but I read once that land can also be mineral diffecient. Does lime help with this as well?

I know you're asking Bass Reeves and apologies for butting in.

But is this what you're on about.
The soil pH and mineral availability to plants chart.



Bear in mind if you want to go down the rabbit hole that mineral availability is like a chess board and too much of one mineral can block off another.
Too much calcium can block off magnesium etc.