''B'' championship

cms88

Probably something else about this already but couldn't find it.

Carlow captain is teh latest player from a ''weaker'' county to come out and say he has no interest in a B championship.

Just a few things on it. He says playing in a B championship they wouldn't get a chance like the one they have at the weekend playing Monaghan. Is this true? Yes of course. However, as great as it has been, this year for Carlow has been a bit of a fluk. The first time they've played in more then 3 championship i think it almost 80 years. The reality is next year they'll more than go back to how its more or less always been and be out after two games, and more than likely complain about that as well!!

Another thing i can never understand is why football teams seem to think they have a right to play in the senior championship and that it should be changed about to suit them? When in hurling its the total other way around.

The classic line of ''we dont't train all year to play in a B championship'' is always used. But what do they train for then? To get beat by 30 plus points in games? Maybe get a win or two over anotehr Div 4 team? I have a few other things to add but ill wait for a while

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

cms88 wrote: »

The classic line of ''we dont't train all year to play in a B championship'' is always used. But what do they train for then? To get beat by 30 plus points in games? Maybe get a win or two over anotehr Div 4 team? I have a few other things to add but ill wait for a while

Let's run with the example you used of Carlow.

If they are happy enough to train all year and end up getting destroyed by a top tier team, let them. Carlow's endeavours against Wexford and later against London and Leitrim has rewarded them with high profile games against Dublin and now Monaghan. They can look forward to playing in a packed Dr Cullen Park (which I understand never happens) against one of the big guns.

If they get trounced, so what? For Carlow, this year's Championship run has been unprecendented in modern times. If you take them out and stick them in a 'B' Championship, you rob them of that opportunity to play big teams in knockout football, where - on the day - there's always a small chance.

Another thing i can never understand is why football teams seem to think they have a right to play in the senior championship and that it should be changed about to suit them? When in hurling its the total other way around.

But of course they have the right to play senior championship, because every county has always had that opportunity. That's the magic thing about championship football. Waterford are on the same stage as Cork (and we saw what almost happened this year), Carlow are on the same stage as the Dubs, Leitrim could play Mayo and so on. This means a huge amount to players and fans from these counties and that should be respected.

There are merits to a 'B' Championship, if it is done properly. But downsides too.

randd1

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Let's run with the example you used of Carlow.

If they are happy enough to train all year and end up getting destroyed by a top tier team, let them. Carlow's endeavours against Wexford and later against London and Leitrim has rewarded them with high profile games against Dublin and now Monaghan. They can look forward to playing in a packed Dr Cullen Park (which I understand never happens) against one of the big guns.

If they get trounced, so what? For Carlow, this year's Championship run has been unprecendented in modern times. If you take them out and stick them in a 'B' Championship, you rob them of that opportunity to play big teams in knockout football, where - on the day - there's always a small chance.

There are merits to a 'B' Championship, if it is done properly. But downsides too.

Why not have both the Championship and a "B Championship? Of course for that to happen they would have to scrap the provincials, or run the provincials as a straight knockout cup competition separate from the Championship.

But just suppose they did. There are four tiers in the league each with 8 teams. If say for example we had four pots each with 8 teams (7 top sides of the league + top side of immediate lower league).

8 groups of 4, 3 games each, 1 home, 1 away, 1 neutral venue.
Top two of each group goes through to round of 16, 8 top sides of each group into pot 1, 2nd sides into pot 2, then draw accordingly.

For the "B" Championship, 8 3rd placed teams into Pot1 and 8 4th placed teams into pot 2, and draw accordingly.

Advantages:
- Every team gets a shot at Sam McGuire.
- Teams that don't make the latter stages of the AI go to "B" Championship, so more games and another chance to win a trophy.
- Minimum 4 games a year.
- More knockout games.
- League status becomes more important, therefore league becomes more important

Poor_old_gill

I'm looking forward to the level of hilarity going through the roof here when people start mentioning teams that are actually quite good as needing to be in the B championship.

I'll start it off- put Mayo in there as they might actually win something or else put Cork in there (cos I'm from Kerry and slagging your rivals is funny)

cms88

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Let's run with the example you used of Carlow.

If they are happy enough to train all year and end up getting destroyed by a top tier team, let them. Carlow's endeavours against Wexford and later against London and Leitrim has rewarded them with high profile games against Dublin and now Monaghan. They can look forward to playing in a packed Dr Cullen Park (which I understand never happens) against one of the big guns.

If they get trounced, so what? For Carlow, this year's Championship run has been unprecendented in modern times. If you take them out and stick them in a 'B' Championship, you rob them of that opportunity to play big teams in knockout football, where - on the day - there's always a small chance.



But of course they have the right to play senior championship, because every county has always had that opportunity. That's the magic thing about championship football. Waterford are on the same stage as Cork (and we saw what almost happened this year), Carlow are on the same stage as the Dubs, Leitrim could play Mayo and so on. This means a huge amount to players and fans from these counties and that should be respected.

There are merits to a 'B' Championship, if it is done properly. But downsides too.

Not actually true. Can't give an exact date but till at least the 40's every team didn't play in the SFC, some played in the JFC. Roscommon for example won the 1940 JFC with what was the cunties only team, they then went on to win SFC in 43 and 44. So this idea that teams have always been playing in the SFC just isn't true.

salmocab

Surely a B championship would be for counties who exit the championship before a certain point, say qualifer losers before the last round of qualifiers, that would give evryone the same crack at sam that they currently have but would mean that anyone not in say a provincial final or that comes out of the qualifier system to 1/4 final stage goes in. (disclaimer have put no thought into this)

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

cms88 wrote: »

Roscommon for example won the 1940 JFC with what was the cunties only team

:eek: a bit harsh! :pac:

OK, I take the point you're making about that, but for as long as most people can remember, every team has been able to enter Senior Championship football. Would that be fair to say?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

randd1 wrote: »

But just suppose they did. There are four tiers in the league each with 8 teams. If say for example we had four pots each with 8 teams (7 top sides of the league + top side of immediate lower league).

8 groups of 4, 3 games each, 1 home, 1 away, 1 neutral venue.
Top two of each group goes through to round of 16, 8 top sides of each group into pot 1, 2nd sides into pot 2, then draw accordingly.

For the "B" Championship, 8 3rd placed teams into Pot1 and 8 4th placed teams into pot 2, and draw accordingly.

One question - in the 8 groups of 4, are there seeded teams?

cms88

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

:eek: a bit harsh! :pac:

OK, I take the point you're making about that, but for as long as most people can remember, every team has been able to enter Senior Championship football. Would that be fair to say?

Yes that is. I think something like that would be a good way to go.

cms88

salmocab wrote: »

Surely a B championship would be for counties who exit the championship before a certain point, say qualifer losers before the last round of qualifiers, that would give evryone the same crack at sam that they currently have but would mean that anyone not in say a provincial final or that comes out of the qualifier system to 1/4 final stage goes in. (disclaimer have put no thought into this)

The way the Tommy Murphy cup worked was fine. Teams who lose in the first round of the qualifiers go into. They had two chances at that point in the senior championship yet they wouldn't play in it, and a few years after it stopped some counties wanted it back again!

Coillte_Bhoy

If the club cships are graded then why not inter county? It's a ridiculous notion that the likes of Carlow etc are on the same level as Dublin. Doesn't happen in any major team sport anywhere afaik. Have senior, intermediate and junior, if they are good enough they will come up a grade and have their chance. There are 'weaker' teams in every sport i dont know why we should be pandering to them in GAA, it is denying the top teams the chance to play against each other on a regular basis though the Super 8 for all its flaws will at least address that

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

cms88 wrote: »

The way the Tommy Murphy cup worked was fine. Teams who lose in the first round of the qualifiers go into. They had two chances at that point in the senior championship yet they wouldn't play in it, and a few years after it stopped some counties wanted it back again!

We need something everyone could buy into though. Roscommon were in that in 2005 or 2006. We weren't going particularly well at the time, so it's not like we thought we were going to get to an All Ireland that year, but nobody in the county knew or cared about being involved in the TM Cup, because it was almost seen as a joke competition but the GAA.

I think there would be a lot of counties who aren't top 12 or even 16 teams who just wouldn't be arsed about a competition that runs that way. The idea behind it meant well, but it wasn't put together properly. If we want something like that to run properly and for people to buy into it, you need to have the final of it on the same day as the AI Final, not at 12 o clock in an empty stadium before a quarter final.

Hammer Archer

cms88 wrote: »

The way the Tommy Murphy cup worked was fine. Teams who lose in the first round of the qualifiers go into. They had two chances at that point in the senior championship yet they wouldn't play in it, and a few years after it stopped some counties wanted it back again!

The Tommy Murphy Cup did not work fine. Most teams/players had little or no interest in it. The first year, only 4 teams competed. Year two, Carlow and Antrim withdrew. In 2007 and 2008, the teams that competed in division 4 were barred from entering the qualifiers and instead went straight into the Tommy Murphy Cup when they got knocked out of their provincial championships. I honestly can't remember any counties calling for its return when it was scrapped.

threeball

Personally I'd like to see a cohesive season where the league is broken down to Division 1 and 2 with 12 teams and division 3 with 10 teams. Straight league no finals.

The leagues are played and 3 teams from each division get relegated or promoted.
If you manage to stay in the top two divisions or have been promoted you get to play in the A championship. If you are in division 3 or have been relegated you play in the "B" championship.
The A championship should return to straight knock out.
You could even allow a scenario where if the bottom 6 of division 2 get beaten in the first round of the A championship they are allowed compete in the B also.

With this format everyone will have a chance to play A championship in a given year and every division 2 team can also lose that chance. The leagues become ultra competitive and have a bearing on championship which also gets more exciting as its a one shot thing. Playing well in a given year is rewarded and playing poorly is punished.

Theoretically Wicklow or Carlow could still win the All Ireland using this format or they could be spared a 30pt hammering from Dublin depending on how their team shapes up that year.

randd1

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

One question - in the 8 groups of 4, are there seeded teams?

Yeah, based on which league division you participated in. You'd have two options there:

Seeding System A - 4 pots of 8 teams, with each pot representing a division, with one team from each division drawn into each group. Teams that top Divisions 2, 3 & 4 would be placed into pots 1, 2 & 3 respectively as a reward for topping the division, and the bottom teams of Division 1, 2 & 3 would be in pots 2, 3 & 4 respectively. Relegation would still be two up, two down.

Seeding System B - Teams from top two divisions into one pot of 16, two teams from pot into every group. Teams from bottom two divisions into 2nd pot of 16, two teams from pot into every group.

rossie1977

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

If the club cships are graded then why not inter county? It's a ridiculous notion that the likes of Carlow etc are on the same level as Dublin. Doesn't happen in any major team sport anywhere afaik. Have senior, intermediate and junior, if they are good enough they will come up a grade and have their chance. There are 'weaker' teams in every sport i dont know why we should be pandering to them in GAA, it is denying the top teams the chance to play against each other on a regular basis though the Super 8 for all its flaws will at least address that

Happens in the fa cup. One of the romanticisms of the cup is the 3rd round where non league sides have to chance to test themselves against the man utds, liverpools and arsenals.

Dividing teams up in hurling hasn't worked so not sure why people think it will work in gaelic football. Yes 99 times out of 100 Dublin beats Carlow comfortably but on that one evening where it's windy and raining maybe Carlow pull off the impossible. Even this year Dublin struggled against Carlow until they were reduced to 14 and that was a fine day in a neutral venue.

cms88

rossie1977 wrote: »

Happens in the fa cup. One of the romanticisms of the cup is the 3rd round where non league sides have to chance to test themselves against the man utds, liverpools and arsenals.

Dividing teams up in hurling hasn't worked so not sure why people think it will work in gaelic football. Yes 99 times out of 100 Dublin beats Carlow comfortably but on that one evening where it's windy and raining maybe Carlow pull off the impossible. Even this year Dublin struggled against Carlow until they were reduced to 14 and that was a fine day in a neutral venue.

I dont know how you can say it hasn't worked in hurling. Weastmeath, Carlow and Kerry have benefited hugely in the last 10 years or so. Meath, Kildare ad even Wicklow have to lesser extents and thats just at Christy Ring level.

Armagh have become competitive as have Donegal. The only reason for this is because of having different teirs.

cms88

Hammer Archer wrote: »

The Tommy Murphy Cup did not work fine. Most teams/players had little or no interest in it. The first year, only 4 teams competed. Year two, Carlow and Antrim withdrew. In 2007 and 2008, the teams that competed in division 4 were barred from entering the qualifiers and instead went straight into the Tommy Murphy Cup when they got knocked out of their provincial championships. I honestly can't remember any counties calling for its return when it was scrapped.

How it was supposed to work was fine. 5/6 years ago Waterford were complaining about having to play with the likes of Cork, Kerry etc one year saying they should get home advantage for all their games, and the following year sayig no other sport has such a difference between its teams.

IMO the ''weaker'' counties want the system to be changed to suit them. A very good example was 4/5 years ago in Munster when Clare, Limerick etc complained about a draw being seeded. Came out with the usual it's unfair etc That would be fair enough had they been winning Munster titles under the open darw, they weren't. What they wanted was a way to avoid Kerry and Cork before the final and getting a easier way into the last round of the qualifiers. Basically saying they didn't want to put in the effort to try and get near Kerry and Cork.

armaghlad

Is there a list of counties that actually support a B Championship?

In Ulster, Antrim would be the only county that would possibly feature in it and they to my understanding have never had any interest in such a competition.

Divert more funding and coaching to weaker counties like what is done in hurling instead... invest in underage teams and improvements will come through

ArmaniJeanss

threeball wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see a cohesive season where the league is broken down to Division 1 and 2 with 12 teams and division 3 with 10 teams. Straight league no finals.

The leagues are played and 3 teams from each division get relegated or promoted.
If you manage to stay in the top two divisions or have been promoted you get to play in the A championship. If you are in division 3 or have been relegated you play in the "B" championship.
The A championship should return to straight knock out.
You could even allow a scenario where if the bottom 6 of division 2 get beaten in the first round of the A championship they are allowed compete in the B also.

With this format everyone will have a chance to play A championship in a given year and every division 2 team can also lose that chance. The leagues become ultra competitive and have a bearing on championship which also gets more exciting as its a one shot thing. Playing well in a given year is rewarded and playing poorly is punished.

Theoretically Wicklow or Carlow could still win the All Ireland using this format or they could be spared a 30pt hammering from Dublin depending on how their team shapes up that year.

3 of 12 is a fairly savage amount to be relegating (I know the current league is 2 of 8 the same ratio but it's not too important at the moment) and a much higher percentage than other sports do.
Also is there a logical reason for thinking that the Top3 in Div3 are more deserving of a place in the A than the Bottom 3 in Div2? Its plausible (perhaps even likely) that the latter will be better teams and having the best teams in the A is kinda the point.

I do like it fwiw, thought doubt anything like this would ever be done.

theoneeyedman

Any introduction of a B or a second tier championship will kit be done to suit the weaker teams, it will be done to clear the decks for a new TV deal without having to give airtime to the likes of Carlow or Leitrim,.

deadybai

I can't believe we are still talking about this.

A B championship would be bad if a team weren't entered into the all Ireland.

A simple solution is to bring in junior, intermediate and senior levels like club level.

The best solution would be to get teams who are knocked out early to enter a second tier comp and then get some reward for winning .

If there was no such thing as the league, the 4 divisions is perfect really

Boom__Boom

The championship record of the 8 teams that played in Division 4 this year so far is -

Played 22
Won 6
Drew 1
Lost 15

6 wins doesn't sound too bad until you look at the results and see 5 out of the 6 wins came where one Division 4 side was playing another Division 4 side. The other win and draw was Westmeath drawing with Offaly (Division 3) and then going on to beat them.

The last time a side that played in Division 4 beat a side that played in Division 1 was on 2010. That's once in 160 championship games.
Even if you drop the criteria down to Division 2 - including the 2010 championship and up until this weekend, Division 4 sides have beaten Division 2 sides 4 times.

Since 2010 Division 4 sides have played 160 games in the championship and won 5 in total playing against sides from Division 1 and Division 2.

The main reason Carlow are still playing football in July is because they happened to draw 3 Division 4 sides (London, Leitrim, Wexford)
Not sure of the odds on this but I'd imagine it will be a long enough wait before they get such a handy draw again.
As a comparison 4 of the other Division 4 sides had a record of played 2 lost 2 this year.
The other 3 Division 4 sides had 1 win each (2 of them against Division 4 opposition)
If Carlow and other bottom-tier sides are satisfied with this then so be it but it looks like craziness to me.

threeball

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

3 of 12 is a fairly savage amount to be relegating (I know the current league is 2 of 8 the same ratio but it's not too important at the moment) and a much higher percentage than other sports do.
Also is there a logical reason for thinking that the Top3 in Div3 are more deserving of a place in the A than the Bottom 3 in Div2? Its plausible (perhaps even likely) that the latter will be better teams and having the best teams in the A is kinda the point.

I do like it fwiw, thought doubt anything like this would ever be done.

i think the fact you can get relegated or promoted in the space of a year means anyone having a good year can get to push on while a bad start means theres a good chance you won't make the A. No one can really complain that they haven't had a fair crack of the whip as they would have had at least 9 games to prove themselves.
I think 3 is needed as you need a turnover of teams moving in and out to make it interesting. You could see someone like Meath, Roscommon, Cork or Galway get sucked down there and that will give the B championship kudos. Go win a B championship where you've overcome one or two of those and its worth celebrating. It would be worth way more than any provincial title.
I know its tough on the bottom 3 teams in Div 2 but it makes the whole season very interesting and not one team can say they were excluded from the race for Sam Maguire any year. You make what you want of any year.

cms88

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The championship record of the 8 teams that played in Division 4 this year so far is -

Played 22
Won 6
Drew 1
Lost 15

6 wins doesn't sound too bad until you look at the results and see 5 out of the 6 wins came where one Division 4 side was playing another Division 4 side. The other win and draw was Westmeath drawing with Offaly (Division 3) and then going on to beat them.

The last time a side that played in Division 4 beat a side that played in Division 1 was on 2010. That's once in 160 championship games.
Even if you drop the criteria down to Division 2 - including the 2010 championship and up until this weekend, Division 4 sides have beaten Division 2 sides 4 times.

Since 2010 Division 4 sides have played 160 games in the championship and won 5 in total playing against sides from Division 1 and Division 2.

The main reason Carlow are still playing football in July is because they happened to draw 3 Division 4 sides (London, Leitrim, Wexford)
Not sure of the odds on this but I'd imagine it will be a long enough wait before they get such a handy draw again.
As a comparison 4 of the other Division 4 sides had a record of played 2 lost 2 this year.
The other 3 Division 4 sides had 1 win each (2 of them against Division 4 opposition)
If Carlow and other bottom-tier sides are satisfied with this then so be it but it looks like craziness to me.

This is what i cant understand. As i said it's the first time in almost 80 years Carlow have played as many games as they have, and as you've said really it was just a fluke. If that's what they're happy with then fair enough but surely when you finish playing you'd want some sort of silverware and not having won a few games as being all you have to remember your career.

Coillte_Bhoy

rossie1977 wrote: »

Happens in the fa cup. One of the romanticisms of the cup is the 3rd round where non league sides have to chance to test themselves against the man utds, liverpools and arsenals.

Dividing teams up in hurling hasn't worked so not sure why people think it will work in gaelic football. Yes 99 times out of 100 Dublin beats Carlow comfortably but on that one evening where it's windy and raining maybe Carlow pull off the impossible. Even this year Dublin struggled against Carlow until they were reduced to 14 and that was a fine day in a neutral venue.

There is absolutely no comparison. For a start the The FA Cup is not the premier competition and even if it was, everybody does not start at the same level, the weaker teams play many qualifying rounds before the bigger teams enter at various stages.

And even if Carlow pull off that 100/1 so what? Why should the competition be structured to allow for once in a lifetime upsets while we have years of one sided dross

Coillte_Bhoy

threeball wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see a cohesive season where the league is broken down to Division 1 and 2 with 12 teams and division 3 with 10 teams. Straight league no finals.

The leagues are played and 3 teams from each division get relegated or promoted.
If you manage to stay in the top two divisions or have been promoted you get to play in the A championship. If you are in division 3 or have been relegated you play in the "B" championship.
The A championship should return to straight knock out.
You could even allow a scenario where if the bottom 6 of division 2 get beaten in the first round of the A championship they are allowed compete in the B also.

With this format everyone will have a chance to play A championship in a given year and every division 2 team can also lose that chance. The leagues become ultra competitive and have a bearing on championship which also gets more exciting as its a one shot thing. Playing well in a given year is rewarded and playing poorly is punished.

Theoretically Wicklow or Carlow could still win the All Ireland using this format or they could be spared a 30pt hammering from Dublin depending on how their team shapes up that year.

The problem with a league system deciding the cship draw is that the counties will not be able to plan their club fixtures at all. For all the mess the present situation creates there is a degree of certainty for most counties when it comes to drawing up their fixtures. Good idea apart though.

LeinsterDub

rossie1977 wrote: »

.

Dividing teams up in hurling hasn't worked so not sure why people think it will work in gaelic football.

Completely disagree. The standard of the weaker teams in hurling has improved dramatically. Teams like Kerry or Carlow are unlikely ever going to in the running for Liam due playing numbers but Carlow ran Laois close this season. Football counties with decent playing number could actually build in a B competition.

threeball

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

The problem with a league system deciding the cship draw is that the counties will not be able to plan their club fixtures at all. For all the mess the present situation creates there is a degree of certainty for most counties when it comes to drawing up their fixtures. Good idea apart though.

It really should be less cluttered than now. The additional league games are just replacing the league finals and semis and the fact that champo goes back to straight knockout means theres more weeks free. Aim to have it start in end may and done by mid august.

Coillte_Bhoy

threeball wrote: »

It really should be less cluttered than now. The additional league games are just replacing the league finals and semis and the fact that champo goes back to straight knockout means theres more weeks free. Aim to have it start in end may and done by mid august.

Well there no semis now but its not the extra games that are the problem, a county wont know when its playing cship until league is over.

threeball

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Well there no semis now but its not the extra games that are the problem, a county wont know when its playing cship until league is over.

Why, theyre still playing championship just the level needs to be decided. A and B games should be same weekend.
There should be set club weekends also as part of the revamp.