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HGV Versus Cyclist Road Rage

  • 12-07-2017 11:07pm
    #1
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭


    I came across the following video on a Facebook feed:

    https://www.facebook.com/idiotdriverscaught/videos/1910694995869836/

    All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

    A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.
    100%, it is not advanced driving though, it is a minimum expected standard.
    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.
    Having driven a rigid body before (not an arctic) it is dubious he ever saw the cyclist but he would have known there was someone close by because he seen the lads move ahead and would have seen the lads behind in his rear view. The camera man was clearly in his rear view mirror.
    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.
    He should be, but he won't
    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.
    This on the other hand is not an excuse, every cyclist in that lane after the truck arrived was in the wrong. Right or wrong, your priority on the road must always be yourself. The driver was a muppet but he had a point. You will end up dead.


  • #3
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    As a cyclist I would not wait in a HGV's blind spot at the lights, (as all thos cyclists did) then try to beat him across the junction from that position.

    Either get in front where he can see you before the lights change, or stay behind him. Poor anticipation and road sense from the cyclists. As the cyclists said they did because everyone does it. Very lucky not to have been killed.

    The Driver should have let the cyclists go ahead and not squeezed them. But it was clear from the way he moved off he was not going to give way and was going for the pinch point opposite, regardless of the cyclists. He will kill someone driving like that.


  • #4
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Driver at fault but contributory negligence on the part of the cyclist(s). What really annoyed me was that every cyclist in that clip were going straight on but not a single one thought to pull up in front of the truck. There were lights directly opposite the junction so holding back to see the sequence change not an excuse. Perhaps some would have but were obstructed by other cyclists (Mapei jersey guy I'm looking at you).

    Layout looks particularly dangerous though, especially with lanes narrowing and merging after the junction.

    Also I notice the guy fails to clip-in first time, stops pedalling and looks down, which was enough for the truck to overtake.


  • #5
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Those cyclists all went straight on from a left turn only lane, that's not acceptable.
    The trucker should have been able to see them but maybe he couldn't due to the angles and blind spots, hardly unfair to say he shouldn't expect cyclists to be there though given the lane setup.

    I counted 9 cyclists I think, all of whom, frankly, are morons for being in the position they were, how they cannot understand the danger that truck poses escapes me.


  • #6
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Habit. They infer it in the video.


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  • #7
    Danbo!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭Danbo!


    Forgetting about who is to blame for one second, how bloody lucky is the cyclist considering the way he fell against the truck? Odds are very much stacked against you on a bike getting hit unexpectedly by a hgv like that, but coming out unscathed and, more importantly, still upright, is insanely lucky!


  • #8
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    I came across the following video on a Facebook feed:

    https://www.facebook.com/idiotdriverscaught/videos/1910694995869836/

    All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

    A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.

    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?


  • #9
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution


  • #10
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    ...
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured....

    83% of UK cyclists hold driving licences

    This is nothing to do with licences or Rules of the Road.

    Its bad habits through lack of enforcement.


  • #11
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    An undertaking cyclist, in a left turn only lane, changes lanes in a lorries blindspot and collides with a lorry going straight on.

    Its a pity the gob****e didn't have his bike flattened the absolute ejit.


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  • #12
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,412 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right.
    While neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your position, perhaps 'not in the wrong' might be a more appropriate term than 'in the right' when referring to a situation whereby a person could quite possibly have been minced by the tens of tonnes of metal that the driver was responsible for safely moving around a shared environment?

    Just a thought. Anyway. As ye were...


  • #13
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution
    Are you suggesting its unreasonable to expect someone in a left turning lane
    to TURN LEFT??


  • #14
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The driver saw other cyclists coming from that position ahead of him, and should have anticipated other muppets.


  • #15
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Danbo! wrote: »
    Forgetting about who is to blame for one second, how bloody lucky is the cyclist considering the way he fell against the truck? Odds are very much stacked against you on a bike getting hit unexpectedly by a hgv like that, but coming out unscathed and, more importantly, still upright, is insanely lucky!
    Holy **** is right, plenty of people in this world who were not so lucky.
    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?
    Rubbish. I have driven HGVs, if he was looking he would have seen the camera biker. He hit the gas to cut off the cyclists he could see or he is incompetent. The cyclists are in the wrong, no doubt, that does not mean the driver was in the right. Thinking it does shows a lack of common sense or empathy. Neither of which are acceptable when in charge of a vehicle of that power and size.


  • #16
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Are you suggesting its unreasonable to expect someone in a left turning lane
    to TURN LEFT??

    He seen the cyclists ahead, he seen the cyclists in his rear view slightly further back. It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone. If you think it does, I can only hope no one relies on you for safety.


  • #17
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Holy **** is right, plenty of people in this world who were not so lucky.
    Rubbish. I have driven HGVs, if he was looking he would have seen the camera biker. He hit the gas to cut off the cyclists he could see or he is incompetent. The cyclists are in the wrong, no doubt, that does not mean the driver was in the right. Thinking it does shows a lack of common sense or empathy. Neither of which are acceptable when in charge of a vehicle of that power and size.

    Or maybe he expected people to obey the rules of the road like..... Do not undertake. In a left turning lane, you must turn left. Etc etc simple enough expectations. The cyclists should have more cop on.


  • #18
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    CramCycle wrote: »
    He seen the cyclists ahead, he seen the cyclists in his rear view slightly further back. It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone. If you think it does, I can only hope no one relies on you for safety.

    Muppets indeed. Although being in a go straight ahead lane, does entitle him to do that without expecting power rangers changing lanes and undertaking him and trying to push in against 50 tones of steel!


  • #19
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?


  • #20
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Or maybe he expected people to obey the rules of the road like..... ....

    ...only an idiot expects that... or someone with zero experience....


  • #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?

    The insurance which has the most to gain by a claim. Since its scam.

    If it was car though they'd all claim whiplash.


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  • #22
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Muppets indeed. Although being in a go straight ahead lane, does entitle him to do that without expecting power rangers changing lanes and undertaking him and trying to push in against 50 tones of steel!
    He doesn't have to be a mind reader, some were visible before the junction. He was arguably, barely, legally in the right. The cyclists were muppets, all of them. But for him not to expect it was coming is clearly driving without due care and attention.
    the whole year inn wrote: »
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?
    It does but I do fear the number of people who think that being, potentially, in the right, is more important than the life of another person.

    Sad times for civilisation.


  • #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know this is a cycling forum, and as such, the vast majority of users will defend the cyclist and find flaw in the truck driver. Which is fair enough.

    However, as someone who does use a bicycle, but admittedly is more of a driver than a cyclist (car driver, I've never drove a HGV), I find it very difficult to point any blame at the HGV driver for this encounter. Clearly (to us, the viewer) the cyclist is in a dangerous spot and is looking for trouble.

    Using the left turn only lane is unacceptable in the circumstances (although I would lean to forgiving it if there was even a cycle lane on the left of the road they were going (straight ahead) to. But there's not even that).

    Although I feel sorry for the cyclist, as he is the one who had the physical interaction with a HGV (not something I'd like), i reckon it's entirely his own fault and would appoint 0% of the blame to the HGV driver based on the footage.


  • #24
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know this is a cycling forum, and as such, the vast majority of users will defend the cyclist and find flaw in the truck driver. Which is fair enough....

    Who exactly is defending the cyclists? What majority?


  • #25
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ... I find it very difficult to point any blame at the HGV driver for this encounter....

    So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.


  • #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.

    Yeah. Of course. How long should he sit there for waiting before he takes off waiting on 'other cyclists' to appear?

    A cyclist can queue at a set of traffic lights like other people do, you know. They don't have to be at the front (or in this case, at the side, in the wrong lane).


    I don't cycle too often, but I am even clued in enough to know that you never go into a HGVs blind spot. It's promoted in ads, on literature by road safety crowds (RSA in our case), and it's something I would expect is common knowledge among cyclists. I would hazard a guess that the majority of cyclist related deaths are caused by being crushed by a HGV that didn't see them.


    It was even the first thing the driver said when he got out of the truck.

    beauf wrote: »
    Who exactly is defending the cyclists? What majority?

    Erm...?
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic.
    CramCycle wrote: »
    It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone.
    beauf wrote: »
    The driver saw other cyclists coming from that position ahead of him, and should have anticipated other muppets.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    Driver at fault but contributory negligence on the part of the cyclist(s)


    Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.


  • #27
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    CramCycle wrote: »
    He doesn't have to be a mind reader, some were visible before the junction. He was arguably, barely, legally in the right. The cyclists were muppets, all of them. But for him not to expect it was coming is clearly driving without due care and attention.

    It does but I do fear the number of people who think that being, potentially, in the right, is more important than the life of another person.

    Sad times for civilisation.

    If this cycler died and the driver was brought up in court, being right in this instance is his life, he could have a family that depends on him. Why is that sad.
    I can't understand any of the actions of the cyclists I'm not a biker and Espically not around towns but all the bikers that took no disregard to there own lifes and expect to get away with it.


  • #28
    rob w
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭rob w


    This is exactly why you should never go down the inside of a truck/bus. If one happens to pull alongside at lights like that - get in front of it where you can be seen or else let the truck go on ahead!!

    Theres blame on both the driver and cyclist here but there is no point getting killed for the sake of trying to prove a point!!

    Lucky escape for the guy - he wont do that again!


  • #29
    CSU
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭CSU


    They simply shouldn't have waited there as they did, it's the wrong lane.

    If I was approaching that on the bike - alarm bells would be going off in my head; 'wait behind the HGV for 100% life preservation'.

    That said, the HGV driver should have took the situation for what it was (a bunch of idiots with no feckin' cop-on) and let them pass...

    They were asking for that imo.


  • #30
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    rob w wrote: »
    Theres blame on both the driver and cyclist here but there is no point getting killed for the sake of trying to prove a point!!
    No point killing to prove a point either. Not great for society that people are ok with killing people once they are legally "in the right" for the sake of a few seconds. That idiot, also happens to be someone's son, maybe a partner or husband, father...


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  • #31
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.
    Very selective, bar the OP, everyone else would appear to have called the cyclists muppets, although I think sheeple is probably more accurate.

    I see road users every day do stupid and illegal sh1t. Doesn't give me the OK to plough on. There is no reasonable way the driver could have thought he was in the clear. For those asking how long should he wait. He had numerous options. Merge slightly over to the lane beside. Wait until the last cyclist in his rear view is visible in front.

    There is no easy answer but being in the right doesn't make him right. If he can live with a dead person because they were in the wrong, maybe he should consider retiring.

    The world is alas not black and white


  • #32
    FAILSAFE 00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭FAILSAFE 00


    I seen this gem in the replies.

    Mat Veal: Clearly the lorry. Cyclists don't need to follow the lane markings. Especially here "because it's London" apparently. I'm sure he'd want that on his headstone

    "Trampled by a lorry, was in the wrong lane, because it was London"


  • #33
    rob w
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭rob w


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    No point killing to prove a point either. Not great for society that people are ok with killing people once they are legally "in the right" for the sake of a few seconds. That idiot, also happens to be someone's son, maybe a partner or husband, father...

    Absolutley not, but thats not what I said! What I meant is that the only person likely to be killed here is a cyclist. If you dont give the truck the opportunity to flatten you then you wont be flattened!! We are a vulnerable lot!

    There is just a bit too much righteousness from some people after incidents like this . There may be new or inexperienced cyclists reading threads/watching videos like these and what they need to learn from it is how to best avoid these situations and not to come away with the attitude of being in the right!


  • #34
    Danbo!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭Danbo!


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Wait until the last cyclist in his rear view is visible in front.

    Could be a coincidence, but it does appear as if there's an acceleration just after the cyclist in front of victim appears in drivers field of view - I wondered did the driver maybe think he was the last one to clear before continuing. But no idea on what basis he would consider that to be "all cyclists cleared". It may be just a gear change though.


  • #35
    buffalo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭buffalo


    CSU wrote: »
    They were asking for that imo.

    They were both asking for it.


  • #36
    marklazarcovic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,229 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    no blame whatsoever for the hgv driver, cyclists in a lane for left turn only attempting to undertake a lorry from a standing start is a death wish and far far beyond stupid,ill bet the cyclist never does it again,because he knows he was blessed to come out alive doing what he did.

    the pompous attitude of the others that stopped tells me they would nearly have preferred if there was a injury caused just to highlight their right to be on the road.

    in this case,cyclists 100 % at fault, if they were in correct lane they would be behind the lorry,this would not have happened.simple as that.


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  • #37
    conor_mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 790 ✭✭✭conor_mc


    Honestly can't see what the truck driver has done wrong here. I am a daily city-centre cyclist so won't condone any kind of dangerous driving, but this is clearly the fault of the group of cyclists. You can even tell by the drivers braking reaction that he was not squeezing the cyclist out intentionally, but you can't expect him to do a head count of every cyclist he may or may not have seen in his mirrors while stopped at the lights. The cyclist had zero right to occupy that space, and if you can't get in front of a truck/bus in that situation, then you get yourself behind it asap! You don't push on hoping the cyclists in front of you all take off quick enough to allow you to get out front of the truck.

    The driver almost killed someone through no fault of his own, I'd feel pretty road-ragey about that if it was me!!


  • #38
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Idiot cyclists (and I cycle in London regularly) you see them all the time doing crap like this because of anything nearly happens or good forbid does happen, everyone will be on "their side". Self righteousness at its best.

    Still wouldn't wish a clip from a hgv for anyone. Easily avoided here though with a bit of patience


  • #39
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Danbo! wrote: »
    Could be a coincidence, but it does appear as if there's an acceleration just after the cyclist in front of victim appears in drivers field of view - I wondered did the driver maybe think he was the last one to clear before continuing. But no idea on what basis he would consider that to be "all cyclists cleared". It may be just a gear change though.

    Worrying if he did as he would have been able to see some of them in his rear view. The acceleration is just a gear change so I didn't read to much into that and he appears to pull right when he hears the shout. I also would have been surprised if any more than the tip of the helmet of the guy who was hit was visible for a split second, you lose the first few feet when driving a HGV and unless he leaned forward (which I was told was good practice to narrow your blind spots), I don't think it would have been obvious.

    Every cyclist in that video was in the wrong, most probably due to being sheep or just because they see others do it every day and think, ah shure, that's grand.

    The lorry driver would have known there were cyclists to his side, he should have seen the ones further back, he would have seen the ones jump ahead. To jump to the assumption there were none in between is quite a leap and shows massive under awareness. Legally he would be on dodgy enough ground, as other road users being in the wrong does not place you in the right. Morally, exactly the same, there is either the possibility he was ignorantly negligent and did not think it through (ie he let some through and thought he beat the rest) or he was trying to prove a point.

    Honestly, I think it was the former and the anger afterwards was the adrenaline in relation to the fear that most normal people would get.


  • #40
    Danbo!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭Danbo!


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Worrying if he did as he would have been able to see some of them in his rear view. The acceleration is just a gear change so I didn't read to much into that and he appears to pull right when he hears the shout. I also would have been surprised if any more than the tip of the helmet of the guy who was hit was visible for a split second, you lose the first few feet when driving a HGV and unless he leaned forward (which I was told was good practice to narrow your blind spots), I don't think it would have been obvious.

    Every cyclist in that video was in the wrong, most probably due to being sheep or just because they see others do it every day and think, ah shure, that's grand.

    The lorry driver would have known there were cyclists to his side, he should have seen the ones further back, he would have seen the ones jump ahead. To jump to the assumption there were none in between is quite a leap and shows massive under awareness. Legally he would be on dodgy enough ground, as other road users being in the wrong does not place you in the right. Morally, exactly the same, there is either the possibility he was ignorantly negligent and did not think it through (ie he let some through and thought he beat the rest) or he was trying to prove a point.

    Honestly, I think it was the former and the anger afterwards was the adrenaline in relation to the fear that most normal people would get.

    Yup - completely agree - it could be my own experiences colouring my opinion, but ignorant negligence covers an awful lot of issues I have had on the bike.


  • #41
    Bushmanpm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Bushmanpm


    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

    So am I but that is where we end in our agreement
    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

    Ambiguous nature of the road? There is absolutely ZERO ambiguity here, in the absence of a cycle lane, cyclists should comply with the regular lane directions and rules. Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? Where is the cyclists responsibility? And as another poster said, how long exactly should the driver wait while the cyclists sort themselves out?
    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

    The cyclist was also "applying the gas" when perhaps his brake levers would have been a better option? As for the 1 metre clearance, a LGV is somewhat wider than a regular car and therefore doesn't usually have the luxury of the 1 metre margin.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

    Perhaps the driver was angry and in a bit of shock at the sheer stupidity of the cyclist? I very much doubt he'll lose his job or get a ban. Nice that you'd like to see him lose his livelihood due to the stupidity of someone else.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

    It is a Left Turn Only lane. No ifs, no buts. Turn left only! If the Straight Ahead lane was taken up by the truck, wait behind or in front of it, not at the side, that's just dumb. Also, if there's no Cyclist Resting Bay (its not mandatory to have them you know) you just comply with the road markings that ARE present.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote:
    A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.

    TfL have spent in excess of
    £930,000,000 on cycle infrastructure so although there's no cycle facilities at this junction (again, its not mandatory) its not as if London hasn't paid for cycling infrastructure elsewhere.

    So to recap: the blame lies with the LGV driver, the truck was taking up his own lane, no cycle lane and no cycle resting box? And what about all the idiotic cyclists who consciously were in the wrong lane and tried to race a forty ton truck from the lights? Where's the cyclists responsibility for their own safety? As soon as the situation developed, why didn't the cyclist apply their brakes?
    But, y'know "Grrr, motor vehicles!"


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  • #42
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah. Of course. How long should he sit there for waiting before he takes off waiting on 'other cyclists' to appear?

    I didn't say he should wait. I said he should expect other cyclists based on what is happening around him.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    A cyclist can queue at a set of traffic lights like other people do, you know. They don't have to be at the front (or in this case, at the side, in the wrong lane).

    Again no one is defending the cyclists being in the wrong lane. You've invented that. But as a cyclist and are first at the lights you should definitely not stay left but stay center lane. The cyclists in the vid are in the wrong lane. Most likely because of the stay left mantra from people who either don't cycle or are inexperienced. Or just bad habits.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't cycle too often, but I am even clued in enough to know that you never go into a HGVs blind spot. It's promoted in ads, on literature by road safety crowds (RSA in our case), and it's something I would expect is common knowledge among cyclists. I would hazard a guess that the majority of cyclist related deaths are caused by being crushed by a HGV that didn't see them.

    Again this is danger of the stay left mantra. That said, I would guess most of these cyclists are going into the blind spot and left turning lane deliberately not from ignorance. They all look like experienced commuters. So using this lane is a bad habit they've got used to.


    Erm...?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.

    None of those defend the cyclists?

    Unless you think there can only be one party at fault in an accident, or that right of way mean you can through common sense out of the window and drive into people.

    So how about answering my question...
    beauf wrote: »
    So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.


  • #43
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    gctest50 wrote: »
    There should be a rule along the lines of :

    When a truck is at a standstill and until it has cleared the junction, cyclists must not pass its second axle

    The cyclists already ignored numerous rules here. Adding another one will make no difference.


  • #44
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    As a cyclist, the cyclist was completely in the wrong and an idiot along with all the other cyclists undertaking a HGV. Idiots!

    Lucky no one was hurt.


  • #45
    flatface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 722 ✭✭✭flatface


    Have to agree the cyclist showed poor position and judgement and put himself in this dangerous position.
    It happens way to much on our roads here, cyclists squeezing up inside buses and hgv dangerously just to gain a meter or 2. So pointless. It's so rare to see anyone stopping behind a bus or truck and waiting in line to move off.


  • #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bushmanpm wrote: »
    ...Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? ...

    Using anticipation or imagination is a key skill in using the road.

    Just because I see someone with their indicator on doesn't mean I should ignore the possibility that they won't turn or even turn in the opposite direction. Because people do stupid things all the time. All road users should anticipate that respond accordingly.


  • #47
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    flatface wrote: »
    Have to agree the cyclist showed poor position and judgement and put himself in this dangerous position.
    It happens way to much on our roads here, cyclists squeezing up inside buses and hgv dangerously just to gain a meter or 2. So pointless. It's so rare to see anyone stopping behind a bus or truck and waiting in line to move off.

    Even after the cyclist moved off he showed terrible situational awareness to not be watching the HGV. The cyclist should have anticipated the pinch point ahead and looked to see what was behind him.


  • #48
    Rave.ef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    Cyclist is one lucky idiot. How could the hgv driver see the mog...

    This would be the drivers view


  • #49
    Inviere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Bunch of wreckless tossers, clearly a left hand only lane...no excuse or justification to endanger themselves like that.

    Retro Computers/Consoles Repair/Restoration List



  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    Using anticipation or imagination is a key skill in using the road.

    Just because I see someone with their indicator on doesn't mean I should ignore the possibility that they won't turn or even turn in the opposite direction. Because people do stupid things all the time. All road users should anticipate that respond accordingly.

    I think the most vulnerable road users need to use the most anticipation and imagination......they're the ones that are going to come off second best.


  • #51
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Bushmanpm wrote: »
    Ambiguous nature of the road? There is absolutely ZERO ambiguity here, in the absence of a cycle lane, cyclists should comply with the regular lane directions and rules. Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? Where is the cyclists responsibility? And as another poster said, how long exactly should the driver wait while the cyclists sort themselves out?
    No need to wait, indicate and merge slightly right. Everyone here seems to agree that the cyclists were in the wrong. being in the wrong does not give anyone carte blanche to knowingly or otherwise kill someone.

    The position of the cyclists is bred from poor road craft practices that are bet into people from a young age. Cyclists, since I was a child, have this mentality of keeping left bet into them. We have some motorists beep us when we take the lane, I have had people jump out of their cars at junctions because they presumed I stopped at the red just to annoy them and impede their take off.

    All of the cyclists were wrong, do you think that the drivers lack of observance or due care and attention were OK because of this?

    I had a 4x4 pull out in front of me the other day. It was observance that was to thank that we did not collide in time. If I had ploughed on and hit the vehicle, I would have been in the "right" form a technical perspective. What alot of cyclists and motorists fail to realise is that being in the right and being right are very different things.
    The cyclist was also "applying the gas" when perhaps his brake levers would have been a better option? As for the 1 metre clearance, a LGV is somewhat wider than a regular car and therefore doesn't usually have the luxury of the 1 metre margin.
    100% on the cyclist applying the brake, never should have been there in the first place, just years of a large number of the population telling him that is the right place to be. Being a sheep, he doesn't realise the issue when the vehicle is a HGV.
    Perhaps the driver was angry and in a bit of shock at the sheer stupidity of the cyclist? I very much doubt he'll lose his job or get a ban. Nice that you'd like to see him lose his livelihood due to the stupidity of someone else.
    I'd like to see that he understands that being in the right is not the be all and end all. I completely understand his reaction though.
    But, y'know "Grrr, motor vehicles!"
    no one is saying that


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