New poster from seeking information on buying a property in Dublin

Henbabani

Hi there, I'm new here,from Israel.
I'm 28, planning to move to Dublin on may 2018, I'm following the property market for the last three months and i had to say i really don't understand all these bad articles with those terrifying headlines.
I really wanna ask, i read everyday that I'll never found 1Bdr apartment in less than 1400-1450€,while i found in daft more than 20-30 properties in good locations like dublin 1-8, I'm contacting the agents through daft and the apartments available for at least week or two.
In additional the sale market - i see the prices should be at least 300-400k and found more than 200 properties include 2Bdr apartments all over Dublin and co. Dublin. Including really good areas like dublin6-8 and even dublin 2.
So my question is if the news websites doesn't make the real situation bad while it's not that bad, i mean if i can buy a 2bdr apartment for 200-220k, so the market isn't that bad as it seems in irishtimes,journal,independent and my home and daft.
You comments please
Thank you for reading

LiamoSail

Henbabani wrote: »

Hi there, I'm new here,from Israel.
I'm 28, planning to move to Dublin on may 2018, I'm following the property market for the last three months and i had to say i really don't understand all these bad articles with those terrifying headlines.
I really wanna ask, i read everyday that I'll never found 1Bdr apartment in less than 1400-1450€,while i found in daft more than 20-30 properties in good locations like dublin 1-8, I'm contacting the agents through daft and the apartments available for at least week or two.
In additional the sale market - i see the prices should be at least 300-400k and found more than 200 properties include 2Bdr apartments all over Dublin and co. Dublin. Including really good areas like dublin6-8 and even dublin 2.
So my question is if the news websites doesn't make the real situation bad while it's not that bad, i mean if i can buy a 2bdr apartment for 200-220k, so the market isn't that bad as it seems in irishtimes,journal,independent and my home and daft.
You comments please
Thank you for reading

Generally anything in Dublin 1-8 is going for approx. 15-20% over asking. You won't get a 2 bed for 220, maybe 240 in a dodgy part of Dublin 8.

The_Conductor

LiamoSail wrote: »

Generally anything in Dublin 1-8 is going for approx. 15-20% over asking. You won't get a 2 bed for 220, maybe 240 in a dodgy part of Dublin 8.

+1 those are asking prices- typically, they achieve perhaps 25% over asking, and a good way to secure one, is to bump up the number of months rent you're willing to offer as a deposit.

Dublin 8- is Kilmainham- one of the US multinationals took 6 units there in the last week- paying a full years rent in advance, from an agent (but got them @ 20% less than the advertised rate).

Swings and round-abouts.

Henbabani

The_Conductor wrote: »

LiamoSail wrote: »

Generally anything in Dublin 1-8 is going for approx. 15-20% over asking. You won't get a 2 bed for 220, maybe 240 in a dodgy part of Dublin 8.

+1 those are asking prices- typically, they achieve perhaps 25% over asking, and a good way to secure one, is to bump up the number of months rent you're willing to offer as a deposit.

Dublin 8- is Kilmainham- one of the US multinationals took 6 units there in the last week- paying a full years rent in advance, from an agent (but got them @ 20% less than the advertised rate).

Swings and round-abouts.

So as i say, the problem isn't that bad as it looks like for the newspapers.
If you still can get nice apartment for 1,200 in Dublin 1-8 it's not that bad.
From Israel when i read the articles it's look really terrifying, that you'll need to pay 1,500 for 1BDr apartment, and I'll never found apartment with 2 bedrooms for max 200k.
But it could really happen with a bit of luck.
I'm watching sale advert from april-may, they still don't sell the apartment.
So if the apartments stay on daft for more than 2-3 months,even when the price is "comfort", the situation isn't that bad.
Don't you think it's a big problem that in Ireland you know if the rents are going up or down thanks to daft information?

The_Conductor

1,200-1,500 for a 1 bed apartment?
I'm not sure what industry you're working in- but if this is the going rate in not so salubrious parts of Dublin- wholly regardless of what the newspapers are saying- I think its way out of kilter.

Dublin 2/4/6 are the high demand areas. 1/3/5/7/8/9 etc- not so.
You need to do reasonable research on the specific areas- and the specific developments you're looking at- rather than simply pointing at a 1 bed in D8 that is sitting there for 2 months and suggesting this means the prices in the area are reasonable.

In a Dublin context- location is key- but location is a lot more than saying its a 20 minute walk to the city centre- its about whether its a safe area that people are killing each other to live in- or whether its a dodgy area reknowned for unsavoury people, unsavoury activities- or indeed properties with very obvious reasons why landlords find it so hard to find tenants.

It is not normal for a rental property to remain vacant in the Dublin area- however, the price is only one aspect of the equation............

LiamoSail

Henbabani wrote: »

So as i say, the problem isn't that bad as it looks like for the newspapers.
If you still can get nice apartment for 1,200 in Dublin 1-8 it's not that bad.
From Israel when i read the articles it's look really terrifying, that you'll need to pay 1,500 for 1BDr apartment, and I'll never found apartment with 2 bedrooms for max 200k.
But it could really happen with a bit of luck.
I'm watching sale advert from april-may, they still don't sell the apartment.
So if the apartments stay on daft for more than 2-3 months,even when the price is "comfort", the situation isn't that bad.
Don't you think it's a big problem that in Ireland you know if the rents are going up or down thanks to daft information?

If you want to be near the city (Dublin 1-8) and in a decent area (by decent I mean not a **** hole), 200k will get you a small 1 bed, no chance of a 2 bed irrespective of what's on daft. There's plenty on daft that is already sale agreed etc. I don't know about the rental market

Bob24

It is all a matter of what you think is an acceptable place to live.

There are central areas which are nice and others where you really don't want to live due to safety issues with a whole range in between.
There are very nice and large one bedroom appartements and there are seriously tiny ones with a whole range in between.
There are very new and well maintained buildings and some which are dumps with a whole range in between.

You will have to find the right compromise between these criteria and also the price you are willing to pay.

Making a quick search on daft only based on the postcode will not really give you a clear picture of what you can get.

I haven't been looking for a while but if my understanding of the rental market is not too rusty: in some of the postcodes you mentioned (but not all, for exemple forget most of Dublin 4) and with my standards, I'd say 1200 will get you a OKish appartement in a OKish area. But not one I would call nice and not a place I would enjoy living in in the long term. I have been lucky to keep a good deal as I have good rapport with my landlord and they want to keep me as a long term tenant, but to give you an idea of why you are reading worrying stories in the papers: in my area rents have increased at least 10% per year in the past 6-7 years. Back in 2010 you could get a very nice and large 1 bedroom appartement for 900 euros or less and nowadays the same appartement would probably go for around 1700-1800 euros.

It should probably be raised as a separate topic but if you want to post some ads you found at reasonable price, I am sure for all of them someone who knows the area and the renting market will be able to tell you why it is cheaper (i.e. what is wrong about it).

Cuddlesworth

If your not familiar with the areas, its difficult to say its a "good area". We have a weird city, you can walk for 30 minutes and hit multiple types of the different class areas.

Bob24

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

We have a weird city, you can walk for 30 minutes and hit multiple types of the different class areas.

Actually many large European/Western cities are that way (Asia can be different). Most city centres have pretty dodgy areas where you don't really want to live and fairly fancy/posh areas which can be much more expensive while just been 10 minutes away on foot.

The_Conductor

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If your not familiar with the areas, its difficult to say its a "good area". We have a weird city, you can walk for 30 minutes and hit multiple types of the different class areas.

I don't think most people really give a hoot about different class areas anymore- its more people shooting up in public, sex in public parks, unprovoked assaults, random damage to private property, thefts, dumping of household refuse, broken glasses/bottles, proximity to the route some people make their drunken way home from- or worse still, proximity to premises who facilitate late night drinking.

Some of the most decent, hard working and peaceful people I've ever known- were also dirt poor either through unemployment or poor pay. Conversely- some of the biggest scumbags I've had the misfortune to cross- were self entitled teenagers attending blackrock college.

You never can tell.

There are certain roads- or estates- that you just avoid. I can think of one road in particular in Inchicore- you just avoid, avoid, avoid. On the other hand- only across the street- is lovely. It can be that localised.

myshirt

I often wonder are the rest of us the fools here. Should we all just pack it in and get going on all this drink, drugs, sex in public parks, low cost housing, etc.

The_Conductor

myshirt wrote: »

I often wonder are the rest of us the fools here.

Honestly- you're in good company- I think most of us think this on a regular basis.

I'm not into sex in public, drugs or other antisocial behaviour- but by gawd, there is a long and varied list of things I'd do- had I the opportunity- near top of the list includes buying a small cottage in a village in the North of Portugal- and getting the hell out of here.

keane2097

Henbabani wrote: »

So as i say, the problem isn't that bad as it looks like for the newspapers.
If you still can get nice apartment for 1,200 in Dublin 1-8 it's not that bad.
From Israel when i read the articles it's look really terrifying, that you'll need to pay 1,500 for 1BDr apartment, and I'll never found apartment with 2 bedrooms for max 200k.
But it could really happen with a bit of luck.
I'm watching sale advert from april-may, they still don't sell the apartment.
So if the apartments stay on daft for more than 2-3 months,even when the price is "comfort", the situation isn't that bad.
Don't you think it's a big problem that in Ireland you know if the rents are going up or down thanks to daft information?

Good luck to you, I look forward to seeing what you think next April or May.

Henbabani

keane2097 wrote: »

Henbabani wrote: »

So as i say, the problem isn't that bad as it looks like for the newspapers.
If you still can get nice apartment for 1,200 in Dublin 1-8 it's not that bad.
From Israel when i read the articles it's look really terrifying, that you'll need to pay 1,500 for 1BDr apartment, and I'll never found apartment with 2 bedrooms for max 200k.
But it could really happen with a bit of luck.
I'm watching sale advert from april-may, they still don't sell the apartment.
So if the apartments stay on daft for more than 2-3 months,even when the price is "comfort", the situation isn't that bad.
Don't you think it's a big problem that in Ireland you know if the rents are going up or down thanks to daft information?

Good luck to you, I look forward to seeing what you think next April or May.

thanks for all the comments, i hope things will get better bacuse i saw last quarter that rent prices in Dublin start to go down because they are higher than they were in the boom.
i'll keep following.
you think that things get worse if Dublin become the "new London"?

Bob24

Henbabani wrote: »

they are higher than they were in the boom.

For reference, I would add that rents are significantly higher. In areas I know very well for having lived there extensively (Dublin 6 and Grand Canal Docks) the prices I see advertised on Daft in 2017 are roughly 50% higher than what I remember from 2007.

To give specific and practical exemples, a 2 beds in this nice Milltown development could be had for around 1500-1600 at the time and they are now advertised for 2200-2400.

Or I remember seeing a 2 beds in this good development at Grand Canal Docks at the end of 2006 which was going for 1600 per month, and as you can see from my link the price is now 2400-2600 for the same block.

I haven't seen any significant reduction in prices either for these places in the past few months. And 50% is a massive increase compared to the previous boom - salaries certainly haven't increase in the same proportion since then, so there is undoubtedly a serious housing issue (and remember that 50% increase is when comparing to the previous peak, if you were to compare to the previous bottom we're more talking 100% increase).

Note as well that there is a gap between rents as prices to buy (probably due to various regulations). While rents are significantly higher than they were back then, prices to purchase the same property still are lower.

frefrefre

@Henbabani - If you've been reading this forum, you'll see that the advertised prices are not always what properties are sold/leased for. 
For instance, due to a short supply of family homes, houses seem to be actually selling for around 20% on top of the asking price, I'm not sure this is filtering through to rental figures but we seem to have very high rents in  Dublin anyway. There is a real panic amongst first time buyers and it's aided and abetted by our media who feed off advertising revenue from property supplements.
Our government and media are expecting a significant amount of new jobs, some announced already, in the financial sector due to Brexit. Hopwver, this may be offset by jobs being lost in other areas, I don't think any serious commentator can tell you that there's only upside to Brexit and if they enter recession it will also hurt us due to the large amount of trade we have with the UK and everything that goes with that. I don't think Dublin has the 'pull' of London for Russan oligarchs or Arab Sheikhs in international terms but posters on here may convince you otherwise.
Do be careful about where you take a place to live, there's areas with rampant drug/crime issues and there's a reason they'd be far cheaper, I will say that if you don't have kids, I'd be fine living anywhere really, it's not Detriot.

Henbabani

thanks again for the datailed comments.
just wondering if 30,000 properties to sale and almost 3,500 to let is a bad situtaion in Ireland property market?
just wanna say, daft was hurry to publish an article when only 3,000 properties was  to let and said this is the lowest amount almost EVER in Ireland, and now when there's 3,500 almost, they didn't say a word.
thanks

Henbabani

Cyrus wrote: »

Rent was relatively cheap in the boom comparing current rents to the boom rents doesn't make any sense really

so the prices should go down?
unless some big firms will move from London to Dublin

frefrefre

Henbabani wrote: »

Cyrus wrote: »

Rent was relatively cheap in the boom comparing current rents to the boom rents doesn't make any sense really

so the prices should go down?
unless some big firms will move from London to Dublin

You have to understand how the culture works here in relation to property. A lot of Irish people have their pensions tied up in 'buy to let' properties, we tend to view high house prices as a good thing, it seems to give people a sense of confidence when they read irresponsible headlines in newspapers alluding to 'prices set to rise for 10 years' or other such speculative pieces.
After the 2008, there was a lot of talk of how the media were very compliant in fueling the bubble, not asking the correct questions and living off the advertising revenue that the property supplements produced. The same is probably the case now but we can only blame ourselves as we read the articles and supplements and have a government ideologically committed to raising property prices as it's seen as a key economic growth indicator. No concern is given to younger generations inability to purchase a home or the fact that the more people pay in rent or on a mortgage, the less there is to invest or spend in other areas. 
To conclude, the last boom didn’t burst because of an oversupply and because of the current feeling panic around property, I can’t see sale or rent prices falling regardless of supply, although a couple of astute commentators on here may tell you otherwise.
It's that way because we like it, makes us feel rich perhaps and I don't think it'll ever change.

Henbabani

frefrefre wrote: »

Henbabani wrote: »

Cyrus wrote: »

Rent was relatively cheap in the boom comparing current rents to the boom rents doesn't make any sense really

so the prices should go down?
unless some big firms will move from London to Dublin

You have to understand how the culture works here in relation to property. A lot of Irish people have their pensions tied up in 'buy to let' properties, we tend to view high house prices as a good thing, it seems to give people a sense of confidence when they read irresponsible headlines in newspapers alluding to 'prices set to rise for 10 years' or other such speculative pieces.
After the 2008, there was a lot of talk of how the media were very compliant in fueling the bubble, not asking the correct questions and living off the advertising revenue that the property supplements produced. The same is probably the case now but we can only blame ourselves as we read the articles and supplements and have a government ideologically committed to raising property prices as it's seen as a key economic growth indicator. No concern is given to younger generations inability to purchase a home or the fact that the more people pay in rent or on a mortgage, the less there is to invest or spend in other areas. 
To conclude, the last boom didn’t burst because of an oversupply and because of the current feeling panic around property, I can’t see sale or rent prices falling regardless of supply, although a couple of astute commentators on here may tell you otherwise.
It's that way because we like it, makes us feel rich perhaps and I don't think it'll ever change.

Thank you, in Israel it's a bit different because most of the people want to buy cheap houses and make the property accessible to the public.
Accordingly to what you said, no good news horizon.

Henbabani

another thing
how can articles like this can have an effect on the market?

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/house-sales-grind-to-near-halt-in-first-half-of-2017-35883894.html

if there's not any second hand transactions than the people doesn't have the money to buy the houses?
this is how read it.

The_Conductor

Henbabani wrote: »

another thing
how can articles like this can have an effect on the market?

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/house-sales-grind-to-near-halt-in-first-half-of-2017-35883894.html

if there's not any second hand transactions than the people doesn't have the money to buy the houses?
this is how read it.

You have to have some grasp of recent happenings in the Irish market- before you can offer any judgement on stats such as this.

1. We have an improbably high proportion of cash sales in the country (even now- its at around 40%)
2. The absolute number of cash buyers- is dwindling.
3. First time buyers- who make up almost 50% of the market- have been corralled into new property- through the first time buyers grant (worth 20k).
4. They also have a 10% deposit requirement- versus 20% for subsequent buyers- and up to 40% for investors
5. Current owners of second hand properties- have, in many cases, still not cleared negative equity from the last boom and bust

So- over half of all buyers- are not interested in second hand properties.
Of those who are- their deposit requirements are substantially higher than for first time buyers.
Of those who can buy- the absolute number of cash buyers- has, eventually, plummeted.

We all knew that there was a finite amount of cash sloshing around in the Irish system- but most of us were amazed it lasted as long as it did. We've been trying to call when the cash buyers were going to dry up- for most of the last 4-5 years- well, eventually, we've hit the limits.

The biggest issue- is we are not building 'family homes' - in this country- we're building apartments, flats and duplexes- in leasehold situations- which are an alien concept to most Irish.

Honestly- there isn't an awful lot of news in that article- its simply a rehash of whay most of us have been talking about in this thread.

dubrov

Henbabani wrote: »

another thing
how can articles like this can have an effect on the market?

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/house-sales-grind-to-near-halt-in-first-half-of-2017-35883894.html

if there's not any second hand transactions than the people doesn't have the money to buy the houses?
this is how read it.

Interesting article and and it certainly reflects what I am seeing (although I guess it is very area dependent). Asking prices have moved up but very little is selling and more and more houses are coming on line each week.

Henbabani

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/level-of-house-building-hits-a-threeyear-high-as-strategy-bears-fruit-35912103.html


another good news i guess?
it's never enough, all those articles said the same thing, even if they build in Ireland 35,000 units per year, so they were say, we need 45,000
but it can't be denied this is really good amount per year.

frefrefre

Henbabani wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/level-of-house-building-hits-a-threeyear-high-as-strategy-bears-fruit-35912103.html


another good news i guess?
it's never enough, all those articles said the same thing, even if they build in Ireland 35,000 units per year, so they were say, we need 45,000
but it can't be denied this is really good amount per year.

Estate agents work for sellers/landlords and as they are constantly asked for comment on prices/rents in our media, they are aghast to admit fresh supply could lead to a decrease in prices, they would simply lose business.
The other factor is they will tend to use the excuse that all our empty units are in areas where people don't want to buy which is patently untrue, there's plenty near urban centres.
Things might change if things like affordable or co-operative housing becomes popular but I can't see the powers that be allowing that to happen:

Henbabani

just want to know
why is this property is so cheap, and is listing for more than a month

http://www.raycooke.ie/property-sales-d.asp?PROP_ID=1369

thank you

mloc123

Henbabani wrote: »

just want to know
why is this property is so cheap, and is listing for more than a month

http://www.raycooke.ie/property-sales-d.asp?PROP_ID=1369

thank you

It is beside a prison, halting site and one of the worst estates in that area (IIRC that was the estate that featured in the news a few years ago where the fire brigade would no longer go into following a series of attacks?)

Henbabani

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What is your budget and let Boards find you a property?[/quote]
i'm in the same problem
young couple, with max 70,000 euros deposit.
can i found in good location of Dublin  2 Bdr apartment for max 200,000?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Henbabani

No,

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Are you tied to working in Dublin? Or family ties?[/quote]
no, but we have to start in Dublin because there we can find work easily, that's because there's a lot of offer for Hebrew speakers.

mloc123

Henbabani wrote: »

No,

no, but we have to start in Dublin because there we can find work easily, that's because there's a lot of offer for Hebrew speakers.

Why not rent for a few months? I assume you have not moved over yet? Rent, get a feel for areas etc.. as you can see it is hard to figure out what an area is like to buy unless you actually walk around it.

The_Conductor

Henbabani- I've moved your posts and responses into their own thread.

Regards-

The_Conductor

Have you researched the other side of the equation yet - what your likely after tax income might be?

Henbabani

mloc123 wrote: »

Henbabani wrote: »

No,

no, but we have to start in Dublin because there we can find work easily, that's because there's a lot of offer for Hebrew speakers.

Why not rent for a few months? I assume you have not moved over yet? Rent, get a feel for areas etc.. as you can see it is hard to figure out what an area is like to buy unless you actually walk around it.

yeah, the rent is bit problem when you come from foreign country because we don't have any references and the sale prices going up so as soon as we buy it'll be great.

Henbabani

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you researched the other side of the equation yet - what your likely after tax income might be?

i guess probably at least 25-30K for each one of us (we're couple without kids).

The_Conductor

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you researched the other side of the equation yet - what your likely after tax income might be?

Its a reasonable enough assumption that the max you should be spending on accommodation should be less than 40% of your net after tax income.

The marginal tax rate on income over 34k is >50% (you hit the higher rate at a ridiculously low level in Ireland).

An idea of what sector you're working in- and what your expected job might be in Ireland- would be very helpful for posters (and might also give people an idea of what part of Dublin you'd be best looking at).

The_Conductor

Henbabani wrote: »

i guess probably at least 25-30K for each one of us (we're couple without kids).

Here is a link to the Deloitte Irish tax calculator- it'll give you an idea of your after tax income.

http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/

Also- 25-30k would be considered to be low paid in an Irish context- its barely above minimum wage.

Edit- if you're both on 30k- it works out at 2,100 each per month- or about 490 (each) per week.
@ 35% of your net income- this is about 1,470 per month- call it 1,500

If you're on 25k- this works out at 1,800 each per month- or 418 (each) a week.
@ 35% of your net income - this is about 1,250 per month.

Henbabani

The_Conductor wrote: »

Henbabani wrote: »

i guess probably at least 25-30K for each one of us (we're couple without kids).

Here is a link to the Deloitte Irish tax calculator- it'll give you an idea of your after tax income.

http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/

Also- 25-30k would be considered to be low paid in an Irish context- its barely above minimum wage.

Edit- if you're both on 30k- it works out at 2,100 each per month- or about 490 (each) per week.
@ 35% of your net income- this is about 1,470 per month- call it 1,500

If you're on 25k- this works out at 1,800 each per month- or 418 (each) a week.
@ 35% of your net income - this is about 1,250 per month.

I meant 30,000k before tax, so if we are married its about 27k each after tax?
Isn't it a nice start salary?

The_Conductor

Henbabani wrote: »

I meant 30,000k before tax, so if we are married its about 27k each after tax?
Isn't it a nice start salary?

If you're married, and both on 30k- your net after tax income is less than 25k (each)- not 27k.

Use the Deloitte calculator I linked to- plug in your figures and see what it comes up with.

Graham

Assuming both on 30k that would mean not eligible for most work permits.

Henbabani

Graham wrote: »

Assuming both on 30k that would mean not eligible for most work permits.

my wife had Lithuanian nationality so as her spouse i can get work permit.
we gonna find some job specially for Hebrew speakers.
there's almost 40 positions like this only in Dublin, the salary range is from 27 to 50-60K
so i goes on the minimum level which is 30K for a year including bonuses.
thank you all for your kindly help

The_Conductor

Henbabani wrote: »

my wife had Lithuanian nationality so as her spouse i can get work permit.
we gonna find some job specially for Hebrew speakers.
there's almost 40 positions like this only in Dublin, the salary range is from 27 to 50-60K
so i goes on the minimum level which is 30K for a year including bonuses.
thank you all for your kindly help

Check the EPCI rules.
You do not qualify for a work permit as a spouse of an EU national, until such time as you have established permanent residency in this jurisdiction.
The rules all changed in April/May of this year.

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

Check the EPCI rules.
You do not qualify for a work permit as a spouse of an EU national, until such time as you have established permanent residency in this jurisdiction.
The rules all changed in April/May of this year.

It is a bit off-topic, but as far as I know under EU Treaty Rights (European Directive 2004/38/EC) the OP is allowed to come to Ireland with their EU spouse for 3 months initially. And if their spouse finds employment here within these 3 months the OP will quality for a 5 years residence card as family member of an EU citizen (Stamp 4 EU Fam) which will allow them to work without the need for a work permit.

Did I miss something?

The_Conductor

Bob24 wrote: »

It is a bit off-topic, but as far as I know under EU Treaty Rights (European Directive 2004/38/EC) the OP is allowed to come to Ireland with their EU spouse for 3 months initially. And if their spouse finds employment here within these 3 months the OP will quality for a 5 years residence card as family member of an EU citizen (Stamp 4 EU Fam) which will allow them to work without the need for a work permit.

Did I miss something?

Only once they have established permanent residency requirements in this jurisdiction. The latest rules were published on the DJEI website in May here

There are a not insignificant number of rules.

If the OP's EU partner has permanent residency in this jurisdiction (which is not automatic) they are entitled to apply for a different type of employment permit- but *not* the dependent spouse rule- its to encourage researchers and areas in which there is a perceived skills shortage- such as nursing.

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

Only once they have established permanent residency requirements in this jurisdiction. The latest rules were published on the DJEI website in May here

There are a not insignificant number of rules.

If the OP's EU partner has permanent residency in this jurisdiction (which is not automatic) they are entitled to apply for a different type of employment permit- but *not* the dependent spouse rule- its to encourage researchers and areas in which there is a perceived skills shortage- such as nursing.

OK I see what you meant. This does not apply to family members of EU citizens though. Directive 2004/38/EC forces Ireland to grant a residence card to direct family members of EU citizens (including spouses) as long as the EU citizen is employed (or studying) here, and that residence card lets the family member engage in any type of employment without the need for a work permit.

See here:
- http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_eu_national.html
- http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU+Treaty+Rights

The_Conductor

However, the EU citizen themselves- has to be resident here........
I.e. you can't leverage the fact that you have an EU spouse, to take up a job in Ireland. The spouse has to be legally resident here first- before the non-EU partner has the right to work here.

I've gone around this umpteen times, and petitioned the Department and 3 different Ministers- I've an Indian sister-in-law, who has been married to my brother for over 10 years- but they haven't lived here (they're currently living in London) and while she can live here, she can't work here (and despite having 2 kids who have Irish citizenship- also isn't entitled to Irish citizenship- which is proving an issue- particularly with Brexit etc on the horizon).

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

However, the EU citizen themselves- has to be resident here........
I.e. you can't leverage the fact that you have an EU spouse, to take up a job in Ireland. The spouse has to be legally resident here first- before the non-EU partner has the right to work here.

I've gone around this umpteen times, and petitioned the Department and 3 different Ministers- I've an Indian sister-in-law, who has been married to my brother for over 10 years- but they haven't lived here (they're currently living in London) and while she can live here, she can't work here (and despite having 2 kids who have Irish citizenship- also isn't entitled to Irish citizenship- which is proving an issue- particularly with Brexit etc on the horizon).

If your brother is Irish it is a different situation. EU Treaty Rights only apply to EU citizens who are not seeking residence in their home country - so it doesn't apply to an Irish person in Ireland (whereas it would apply to the OP's Lithuanian spouse in Ireland - but not in Lithuania). One exception would be if you sister in law has a residence card for family member of an EU citizen issued by the UK - in which case she can transfer that right to Ireland (so assuming your brother is not a British citizen and thus qualifies for EUTR in the UK, my advice if they want to move here would be for her to get an EU family member residence card in the UK and then transfer that right to Ireland: see the second paragraph of answer 14 here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EUTreatyRightsFAQs#Q14).

I am 100% sure of what I say and I have used this to bring my own non-EU partner to Ireland. She could work within a month (processing time of the initial stage of the application) as I was already working here myself.

Not sure what you mean by resident when you say "the EU citizen themselves- has to be resident here", but the only conditions are for the EU citizen to be non-Irish and to be either employed (even part time) or studying. Only this is sufficient for their spouse (and in some cases their non-married partner) to get a 5 years residence card and be allowed to work. So the OP can come here with their wife, and they will be allowed to stay 3 months with no condition. If their wife finds employment within those three months they are good to go and can get the 5 years residence card. If their wife doesn't they will not be able to legally remain in Ireland and will have to leave.

The_Conductor

What I meant was- an EU citizen- who has not established residency in the country, cannot be used as a mechanism for a non-EU national to gain employment rights in the country in question. In an Irish context- the OP's spouse would petition INIS and *may* (depending on their circumstances) be granted a work permit for Ireland. I have officially residency, for various purposes, in 2 other EU countries- and could, potentially, sponsor a spouse (if my wifey wasn't Irish) for an employment permit, in either France or Portugal. In practice, its an albatros around my neck- the paperwork involved in maintaining residency- is onerous (the Portuguese is even worse than the French)- but other than filing obligations (and property tax and the equivalent of local authority charges)- its relatively easy to maintain residency elsewhere (other than the initial setup which is a pain in the proverbial).

Thanks for the info re: my brother and his wife- I'm going to look into it further for them- as particularly in light of Brexit- they are looking into the possibilities for coming home.

johnnyskeleton

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm not into sex in public, drugs or other antisocial behaviour

Its only anti social if you do it by yourself!

Henbabani

So to conclude this discussion
Everything is ok and after one-two months waiting for the permit i can work legally?
Right?
Thank you

Bob24

Henbabani wrote: »

So to conclude this discussion
Everything is ok and after one-two months waiting for the permit i can work legally?
Right?
Thank you

Only if your spouse finds employment within 3 months after your arrival. And to be able to work you will have to submit this form along with the supporting documents listed in section 4 and wait for the application to be processed: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20EU1.pdf/Files/Form%20EU1.pdf

If your spouse doesn't find employment within that timeframe you will not only not be allowed to work, but you will also lose your right reside in Ireland.

A safer bet would probably be for your spouse to come first, and for you only to join her once she has found employement.