Air Corp Pilot Refused to Fly Minister in 2015

Storm 10

This has to be read to believe it, who the hell does he think he is to question an experienced pilot about his reason not to fly, we all know about Cork and its fog issues, it smacks of "Do you know who I am" well done that pilot and the Air Corps it just shows what these people in Government think about us they don't give a damn

Link: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coveney-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-due-to-fog-forecast-1.3143597?mode=amp

JCX BXC

What conditions can the Air Corps land in?

It seems a case of last minute flight cancellation due to possible fog, and then no fog arrived.

Anyway, I don't think ministers should be flown around Ireland at all, take the fecking car.

ELM327

Fair play to the pilot for standing his ground.
I heard this on Newstalk this morning, what a ridiculous sense of self entitlement our political classes have.

Storm 10

Fianna Fail getting involved rightly so

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-coveney-needs-to-clarify-if-he-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-over-predicted-fog-796406.html

christy c

Storm 10 wrote: »

Fianna Fail getting involved rightly so

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-coveney-needs-to-clarify-if-he-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-over-predicted-fog-796406.html

Fianna Fail are getting involved because they think it might benefit Fianna Fail, no other reason.

Anyway fair play to the pilot

L1011

If only Bertie's repeated cycle-building BAL-DUB positioning flights had ever been affected by fog...

smurfjed

Without knowing the weather, both actual and forecast, are we in a position to comment.
My WTF about this story is who released the pilots telephone number.

Irish Steve

Somebody somewhere looking to stir trouble, this story is 2 years old, so not what I would call hot news.

There are all sorts of conspiracy theories possible, but I'll leave them to the politics cafe or forum.

Fog at Dublin caused over 10 diversions earlier this week, so the issues are real.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if they'd gone, and then had to divert or return to Dublin with even longer delays as a result.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

No minister should be flown anywhere within Ireland. How much does each flight cost? I can bet it's not a few hundred euro, that's for sure. What a waste of our money. :mad:

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

Fog at Dublin caused over 10 diversions earlier this week, so the issues are real.
.

Due to unpredicted fog, a long delay in getting CAT III and then a large amount of traffic, I don't think these two scenarios are remotely comparable to be fair Irish Steve.

PukkaStukka

Perhaps the minister would do well to read the events surrounding the Smolensk Air crash in 2010. A crash whilst trying to land in dense fog killed everyone on board including the POlish PM and most of his cabinet.

The Aer Corp pilot did very well to stand his ground. Quite why this has emerged now is probably a more juicy story....

J.pilkington

Jeez, everyone jumping on the bandwagon here some posters even basing their fury on Paul clown Williams on newstalk this morning. It's like reading the comments section of the journal.

We only have one side of the story don't forget.

To balance the outrage, here is a possible explanation; pilot is pissed off with covney (afterall convey was the minister of defence during all the cuts) so has used the fog excuse numerous times to not fly him, convey has enough of flights being cancelled where fog doesn't materialise and wants to talk about it.

bkehoe

Not sure what rules the Aer Corps operate under for these flights but for a commercial operator its perfectly legal to dispatch the flight to destination as long as there are 2 alternate airports available which have suitable weather and fuel for the alternate furthest away is carried.

Don't think this can be compared to the Polish disaster which was a totally different situation at an airport where the actual weather at the time was below the required minima.


Here is the TAF the pilot would have viewed that morning (so temporary periods of weather above CAT II minima but below CAT I minima between 7am and 11am local time);
TAF EICK 170500Z 1706/1806 23010KT 3000 SCT002 OVC005
TEMPO 1706/1710 0400 FG OVC001
BECMG 1710/1712 27012KT
BECMG 1714/1717 31010KT 9999 NSW SCT012 BKN022
PROB40 TEMPO 1717/1723 BKN008=

Irish Steve

JCX BXC wrote: »

Due to unpredicted fog, a long delay in getting CAT III and then a large amount of traffic, I don't think these two scenarios are remotely comparable to be fair Irish Steve.

You have your opinion, I have mine. It seems that a number of people don't agree with your position on a number of things recently, hopefully we're not about to derail this thread by getting into another heated discussion.

IFR weather is challenging, especially when it changes very quickly, which can be the case with fog, if alternates are available, it takes some pressure off, but if the alternates are also marginal, then the safest decision is to not get airborne in the first place.

At least one of the diversions the other evening happened because the aircraft could not accept a CAT3 approach, even though it was available, which was not a Dublin issue.

If the forecast for Cork was for fog, the Aer Corp pilot was absolutely correct in evaluating the forecast, and making an informed decision based on that information. The Manx 2 accident was partly caused by similar weather issues, and there have been others at other locations that have not ended well.

Dragging this up after 2 years suggests an agenda that's not related to flight safety, hopefully it will die down again real soon.

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

You have your opinion, I have mine. It seems that a number of people don't agree with your position on a number of things recently, hopefully we're not about to derail this thread by getting into another heated discussion.

.

Excuse me?

Now that is piss poor for a mod I have to say. Should I not remind you the carnage that took place recently on this forum in regards to mod actions?

Really now time for cop on don't you think Steve?

martinsvi

J.pilkington wrote: »

To balance the outrage, here is a possible explanation; pilot is pissed off with covney (afterall convey was the minister of defence during all the cuts) so has used the fog excuse numerous times to not fly him, convey has enough of flights being cancelled where fog doesn't materialise and wants to talk about it.

We don't really have the planned departure or arrival times, but what we do have is that minister called the pilot at 7:05AM to complain. At that time fog is in full force in Cork airport as indicated by metar archives, so any claim that fog wasn't there simply is not true.

METAR EICK 170600Z 25005KT 0800 R17/1700U R35/0900U FG OVC001 14/14 Q1024 NOSIG=

JCX BXC

Commercial airlines regularly fly, even if weather is forecast out of limits, in the hope that a lull may occur (as they often do), is there a reason why Air Corps could not do this? Whatever your opinion is in ministerial use of this resource, is there not some merit to Simons concerns?

So in a topic about a minister questioning the decision making of a pilot we have lots of other people questioning the decision making of the pilot. I'm sorry but is that not a tad hypocritical of people ?

martinsvi

JCX BXC wrote: »

Commercial airlines regularly fly, even if weather is forecast out of limits, in the hope that a lull may occur (as they often do), is there a reason why Air Corps could not do this? Whatever your opinion is in ministerial use of this resource, is there not some merit to Simons concerns?

well when a commercial flight takes off knowing that the wx at destination is below minima, their goal is to get 50-100-200 or so pax closer to the destination, ideally making delays as little as possible. For them it makes sense.

If you're in VIP transporting business, if your VIP, a single pax, needs to make it to the meeting to a specific place at a specific time, what's the point in taking off, if you know that you will not make it?

JCX BXC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So in a topic about a minister questioning the decision making of a pilot we have lots of other people questioning the decision making of the pilot. I'm sorry but is that not a tad hypocritical of people ?

Well to be fair, the media platform nowadays is to jump from outrage to outrage, I think trying to bring a bit of balance is good. Overall I think Coveney is totally in the wrong here, but I think a few questions can be asked and rightly so.

JCX BXC

martinsvi wrote: »

well when a commercial flight takes off knowing that the wx at destination is below minima, their goal is to get 50-100-200 or so pax closer to the destination, ideally making delays as little as possible. For them it makes sense.

If you're in VIP transporting business, if your VIP, a single pax, needs to make it to the meeting to a specific place at a specific time, what's the point in taking off, if you know that you will not make it?

Fair enough, although I must ask, how do you know you won't make it?

martinsvi

JCX BXC wrote: »

Fair enough, although I must ask, how do you know you won't make it?

let's say, the minister needs to be in Cork for a 9AM meeting, that probably requires to have wheels down at Cork at 8AM.. It's probably a 30 minute flight, at 7AM you just simply make the call on the facts and knowledge you have..

Any pilot flying in Ireland will tell you, if you have fog in the morning, there are just two things that will make it disappear - 1) heat - as in- day needs to warm up or 2) wind.

If it's 7AM, you have slack winds, OVC001, that situation is not capable of changing much until at least 10 am or so.. You simply call it off, because the goal will not be reached. If you take off under these conditions, someone else might come along and question pilots motive to go out and burn through tax payers money when it's well know that the target will not be met?

smurfjed

If the forecast for Cork was for fog, the Aer Corp pilot was absolutely correct in evaluating the forecast, and making an informed decision based on that information.

There was a TEMPOrary, changes expected for less than 1 hour, and less than half the total period. The weather shown above was TEMPO 1706/1710 0400 FG OVC001. In my world the decision to go would be based on fuel, did we have enough fuel to hang around for an hour or so and then divert to the planned alternates with legally required reserves. If the answer was yes, then its brought to the VIP attention, if the answer is NO, then the flight might go to destination with an immediate diversion to the alternate. It would all depend on the VIP.

smurfjed

@Martinsvi.... If it's 7AM, you have slack winds, OVC001, that situation is not capable of changing much until at least 10 am or so
Then its not a TEMPO and should be reported as such.

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

@Martinsvi.... If it's 7AM, you have slack winds, OVC001, that situation is not capable of changing much until at least 10 am or so
Then its not a TEMPO and should be reported as such.

notice that the TAF with tempo was issued at 0500z, where as the METAR that I copied was for 0600z (7am local) with NOSIG remark.

mosesgun

Dublin to Cork is about 2.5 hours in a car which he most likely wouldn't have been driving himself anyway. Seems like such a waste of money to fly him to Cork. The sense of entitlement is unreal. Get up early and take the car, or the train. Internal flights should not be available to them.

smurfjed

Aha, didnt notice that...
NOSIG issued at 0600z would be good until 0800z.

smurfjed

BTW, what type of aircraft was involved?

bkehoe

smurfjed wrote: »

Aha, didnt notice that...
NOSIG issued at 0600z would be good until 0800z.

I'd be willing to count on one hand how often I see anything other than NOSIG on Irish/UK METARs followed by a total change. As the METAR archive shows the fog lifts very quickly, totally in line with what the TAF forecast indicated would happen.

METAR EICK 170630Z 24005KT 9999 BKN002 14/14 Q1024 TEMPO
3000=
METAR EICK 170700Z 24007KT 9999 BKN003 BKN020 14/14 Q1024
NOSIG=

Besides, the METAR at 0600z gives conditions that are totally legal for a CAT I approach.

Perhaps the aircraft wasn't even CAT I capable and was limited to a NPA?

smurfjed

R17/1700U R35/0900U FG OVC001

We need 200 feet for CAT1.

AGC

mosesgun wrote: »

Dublin to Cork is about 2.5 hours in a car which he most likely wouldn't have been driving himself anyway. Seems like such a waste of money to fly him to Cork. The sense of entitlement is unreal. Get up early and take the car, or the train. Internal flights should not be available to them.

This.

If he is phoning a pilot at 07.05 he has in all likelihood known about the meeting since the day before.

Get up earlier and drive and eliminate any risk of weather or the aircraft going tech...