Wine Leaf taxi - Cork

Orebro

Bloody Wine Leaf taxi operating in the Douglas area in Cork - maybe not taking the p1ss as bad as our friend in Gorey but not far off. Screw it, I'm changing sides - start charging for access to the FCPs asap as far as I'm concerned, sick of this carry on, grrrrr....

Soarer

Where's he charging, etc.?

Orebro

Now I have a few days off and I'm taking care of a few things at home I've been driving past the Grange and Rochestown FCPs a few times - he seems to be ever present. Nothing personal, I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but ffs it's really taking the Mick that Taxis can use these facilities imho.

ewj1978

Pulled up beside him by kearys nissan about 2 weeks ago. nice chap. as soon as i asked how long would he be, he unplugged and had a chat while i charged.
Have you talked to him at all?

Orebro

Just once today - he was at 54% and had been charging for 13 mins. Asked him how long he'd be and he said 20 mins more and went back to whatever he was reading. Had to cancel my plans with the kids over it, but whatever, not the end of the world. I've seen him plug in at Rochestown and head off for a walk with his partner too. I don't use the FCPs very much thankfully.

pwurple

Orebro wrote: »

Just once today - he was at 54% and had been charging for 13 mins. Asked him how long he'd be and he said 20 mins more and went back to whatever he was reading. Had to cancel my plans with the kids over it, but whatever, not the end of the world. I've seen him plug in at Rochestown and head off for a walk with his partner too. I don't use the FCPs very much thankfully.

Where do you usually charge?

There should be no plans with the kids that reply on public FCP infrastructure, because it can be occupied / faulty. If the rochestown one was occupied, would you not go to any of the others around? They are only a few minutes apart.

Orebro

pwurple wrote: »

Where do you usually charge?

There should be no plans with the kids that reply on public FCP infrastructure, because it can be occupied / faulty. If the rochestown one was occupied, would you not go to any of the others around? They are only a few minutes apart.

I usually charge at home.

Rochestown was faulty unfortunately. As mentioned above I don't use the FCPs a lot and certainly don't depend on them normally. I have a few days off so my motoring isn't the normal commute stuff I'm doing. I had a few errands to run and was running a bit low so needed a top up. Just grinds my gears that this lad seems to be omnipresent at these FCPs with his taxi is all.

Are you ok with taxis using the public FCPs? (for free I mean)

endacl

Orebro wrote: »

Just grinds my gears

No it doesn't. You don't have gears! :pac:

The Public charging network should not be for commercial use, as the yanks would say, PERIOD ! ha.

Orebro

pwurple wrote: »

There should be no plans with the kids that reply on public FCP infrastructure

Hey I was just in a jolly with the kids, it was the taxi plugged in was the one depending on the public FCP for his livelihood!

Atlantic Dawn

It's crazy the Leaf is allowed be a taxi, in the requirements it fails on both shoulder height and luggage capacity yet meets conditions to be a taxi. There appears to be exemptions for electrics and hybrids, no ICE car passes the test if it fails either of those requirements.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Model_Report_Database_18-08-14_PDF1.pdf

unkel

There shouldn't be free charging for commercial vehicles. But there is, and so you can't really blame him. He seems a decent person anyway, disconnecting himself to allow others to charge.

n97 mini

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's crazy the Leaf is allowed be a taxi, in the requirements it fails on both shoulder height and luggage capacity yet meets conditions to be a taxi. There appears to be exemptions for electrics and hybrids, no ICE car passes the test if it fails either of those requirements.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Model_Report_Database_18-08-14_PDF1.pdf

Not every journey needs space for 3 adults and suitcases, so that's fair enough. Ironically ridesharing services which do need the room like UberPool are not legal here.

ED E

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's crazy the Leaf is allowed be a taxi, in the requirements it fails on both shoulder height and luggage capacity yet meets conditions to be a taxi. There appears to be exemptions for electrics and hybrids, no ICE car passes the test if it fails either of those requirements.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Model_Report_Database_18-08-14_PDF1.pdf

Weren't the original e-taxi pilots a leaf or something similar (had a trip in one in '12/13 IIRC)?

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

There shouldn't be free charging for commercial vehicles. But there is, and so you can't really blame him. He seems a decent person anyway, disconnecting himself to allow others to charge.

Well it seems he did move for someone at the Nissan dealership - not so sure how eager he is at the public FCPs - he certainly had no intention of letting me get a few mins when I asked him how long he'd be!

tedpan

Orebro wrote:

Had to cancel my plans with the kids over it, but whatever, not the end of the world.

Unfortunately you drive a leaf like the rest of us. You can't make plans based on any charging points.

If I find an FCP with two or less cars ahead of me I'm happy enough.

We will just have to live with it until the infrastructure changes significantly

Orebro

tedpan wrote: »

Unfortunately you drive a leaf like the rest of us. You can't make plans based on any charging points.

If I find an FCP with two or less cars ahead of me I'm happy enough.

We will just have to live with it until the infrastructure changes significantly

Not really the point I'm making, think I've confused people with it. My point is that there is a taxi constantly using the couple of FCPs that are there - what happens when another few EV taxis arrive on the scene?

I also wonder what his attitude to me would have been if situation was reversed - 13 mins charging, already at 54%, other FCP in the area faulty, and tell him I'll be another 20 mins? Might put it to the test if he ever pulls in next to me at a FCP and I'm there before him.

tedpan

I get what you're saying. A further 20 minutes is not acceptable. He's have been up to 80 in far less than 20 mins.

pwurple

Yeah, I don't have any problem with taxi's using the FCP's. I like seeing Leaf Taxi's actually, more visibility for electric vehicles, and I'd say the punters ask questions about it.

You've no more right to it than him in my opinion.

If it's the older leaf, where it switches to a slow-charge after 80%, then yes, it is poor etiquette to hog a fast charger on a slow-charge draw, but that's about all I'd have an issue with.


And I've been at the charger before him... when we had work done on our house, and our power was out, I used the charger early morning, about 6am. He waited for me to be done, just as anyone else would. No biggie.

ELM327

There's a second issue here and it's using the private network for commercial gain

pwurple

ELM327 wrote: »

There's a second issue here and it's using the private network for commercial gain

It's not a private network, it's public infrastructure.

He also uses the public roads.... should he build his own roads as well?

Sounds like the Cork taxi guy is behaving well. I bet he's really anxious getting on a driver's seat of a 60 kWh model next year.

ELM327

pwurple wrote: »

It's not a private network, it's public infrastructure.

He also uses the public roads.... should he build his own roads as well?

He uses the public roads and pays motor tax to do so. Moot point.

It is a private network, the "project" was to enable private ev ownership. Not pay taximen's running costs!

Orebro

samih wrote: »

Sounds like the Cork taxi guy is behaving well. I bet he's really anxious getting on a driver's seat of a 60 kWh model next year.

What evidence do you have that he is behaving well?

Orebro

pwurple wrote: »

It's not a private network, it's public infrastructure.

He also uses the public roads.... should he build his own roads as well?

Wherever the money is coming from for the public FCPs (and that's from you and me at the end of the day), they didn't have it in mind to run Taxis for free, so no I don't agree that he has as much right to the network as I do. As a private user yes, leeching off it many times a day to run your business no.

DrPhilG

Orebro wrote: »

What evidence do you have that he is behaving well?

Or that there will be a 60kwh model next year!

Orebro

Orebro wrote: »

What evidence do you have that he is behaving well?

None. At least he seem to only have one Leaf so not like *the other* cabbie in Gorey that keep hogging a charger using two cars.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Or that there will be a 60kwh model next year!

Just pure speculation based on the Internet.

Orebro

samih wrote: »

None. At least he seem to only have one Leaf so not like *the other* cabbie in Gorey that keep hogging a charger using two cars.

Even though I've posted that he is taking the p1ss with the chargers?

Orebro

Orebro wrote: »

samih wrote: »

None. At least he seem to only have one Leaf so not like *the other* cabbie in Gorey that keep hogging a charger using two cars.

Even though I've posted that he is taking the p1ss with the chargers?

Your word against the other driver who mentioned that the cabbie moved out of his way.

Sounds like a lack of infra in Cork due to ChaDeMo down tbh.

Orebro

samih wrote: »

Your word against the other driver who mentioned that the cabbie moved out of his way.

Sounds like a lack of infra in Cork due to ChaDeMo down tbh.

No I don't doubt the other driver but it wasn't the same - that was at a Nissan dealership.

And thts exactly my point - the FCPs in Corkare very few and far between - we certainly don't need taxis coming in and running their businesses for free from a public infrastructure that was never intended for them.

Would a Leaf taxi charge say 5 times a day? So every one that arrives on the scene increases demand on the FCPs 4 or 5 fold - another couple of taxis like this in Cork and we can forget about private cars charging, the taxis would effectively take over. See where I'm going with this?

pwurple

Aha... so you think taxi's should be banned from being Electric full stop? Is this where you are going with this? Enforced diesel?

Orebro

pwurple wrote: »

Aha... so you think taxi's should be banned from being Electric full stop? Is this where you are going with this? Enforced diesel?

Of course not. And I think you're just trying to get a reaction from me here. What I'm saying is very simple - the public infrastructure in its current form should not be avilable for commercial purposes, especially high demand ones like taxis, as it squeezes out the intended private users. How would you feel about taxis getting free diesel and it also comes out of our pockets?

I'm all for EV taxis, but there needs to be a plan for them.

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

Of course not. And I think you're just trying to get a reaction from me here. What I'm saying is very simple - the public infrastructure in its current form should not be avilable for commercial purposes, especially high demand ones like taxis, as it squeezes out the intended private users. How would you feel about taxis getting free diesel and it also comes out of our pockets?

I'm all for EV taxis, but there needs to be a plan for them.

+1
I am strongly of the opinion that all public transport should be EV at least in the city. Put a load of AC chargers at taxi ranks. Heck, follow the TFL model from the UK. Anything is better than diesel fumes in the city slowly killing us and giving us respiratory diseases. Since the public network now is subsidised for private usage in the embryonic stage of development, it should not be available for commercial use.

pwurple

Orebro wrote: »

Of course not. And I think you're just trying to get a reaction from me here. What I'm saying is very simple - the public infrastructure in its current form should not be avilable for commercial purposes, especially high demand ones like taxis, as it squeezes out the intended private users. How would you feel about taxis getting free diesel and it also comes out of our pockets?

I'm all for EV taxis, but there needs to be a plan for them.

Well that is where you're going by singling out taxi's for penalty/restriction.

I don't want diesel full stop. If you want Electric taxi's then you have to encourage them. These are professional drivers talking to people all the live long day about their driving experience. They are effectively electric salesmen. I'd feckin pay them extra to do it.

If anything, it's private users who should be destination charging, in their own homes, or at work. What in the world is someone who lives in Cork doing at a Cork FCP?

The 'intended' users... pu-lease. And god gave unto the non-taxi's an FCP and doth smote anyone else who dareth touch it? Who has sent down from high who the 'intended' are?

I don't see any benefit in ring-fencing some chargers for one use and some chargers for another. Talk about doubling up resources. Waste waste waste.

Didn't your mother ever tell you... Share your toys with your brother.

Orebro

pwurple wrote: »

Well that is where you're going by singling out taxi's for penalty/restriction.

I don't want diesel full stop. If you want Electric taxi's then you have to encourage them. These are professional drivers talking to people all the live long day about their driving experience. They are effectively electric salesmen. I'd feckin pay them extra to do it.

If anything, it's private users who should be destination charging, in their own homes, or at work. What in the world is someone who lives in Cork doing at a Cork FCP?

The 'intended' users... pu-lease. And god gave unto the non-taxi's an FCP and doth smote anyone else who dareth touch it? Who has sent down from high who the 'intended' are?

I don't see any benefit in ring-fencing some chargers for one use and some chargers for another. Talk about doubling up resources. Waste waste waste.

Didn't your mother ever tell you... Share your toys with your brother.

Don't even know where to start with his nonsense, so not going to bother!

pwurple

Orebro wrote: »

Don't even know where to start with his nonsense, so not going to bother!

Thanks for bothering to tell us you're not bothering. :rolleyes:

ELM327

pwurple wrote: »

Thanks for bothering to tell us you're not bothering. :rolleyes:

No bother :P

(Channeling my inner "Orebro" lol)

KCross

I wonder how long, on average, do taxi drivers spend waiting during the day?

If they had dedicated access to 7kW posts, and obviously 7kW capable cars, on their ranks would that negate the need for them to use an FCP at all?

Clearly EV taxis do work. C&C taxis in the UK is a good example. They bought several FCP's for themselves and it paid for itself. Im wondering would 7kW posts also work though or do taxis only spend 10-15mins waiting?

30mins on a 7kW post will give you 15%. If you do that a few times a day and you start with 100% I wonder would it work, or is FCP the only realistic option for taxis?

Orebro

KCross wrote: »

I wonder how long, on average, do taxi drivers spend waiting during the day?

If they had dedicated access to 7kW posts, and obviously 7kW capable cars, on their ranks would that negate the need for them to use an FCP at all?

Clearly EV taxis do work. C&C taxis in the UK is a good example. They bought several FCP's for themselves and it paid for itself. Im wondering would 7kW posts also work though or do taxis only spend 10-15mins waiting?

30mins on a 7kW post will give you 15%. If you do that a few times a day and you start with 100% I wonder would it work, or is FCP the only realistic option for taxis?

I would say what the likes of C&C have done in the U.K. is a good example. The taxi firms / co-ops here could invest / business loan / with Gov incentive to install their own FCPs.

ELM327

C&C actually installed their own FCPs and still made money versus an ICE taxi in I believe less than 3 years.

a bunch of 22kW AC and 22kW DC chargers at a rank would not be that expensive, but just AC on its own would be cheaper again. There are many tesla taxis in the netherlands, no reason we can't encourage that here.

For clarity - I am 100% pro EV taxis, just not to the detriment of the private user.

Orebro

ELM327 wrote: »

For clarity - I am 100% pro EV taxis, just not to the detriment of the private user.

I'll second that, and the sooner the better.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

For clarity - I am 100% pro EV taxis, just not to the detriment of the private user.

The reality is "you" can't stop it. They are entitled to use it the same as the rest of us.

Maybe the govt should consider a grant for 20kW DC chargers for taxi ranks to encourage taxi uptake and then at the same time get eCars to restrict commercial use of the public infrastructure (maybe 2 FCP charges allowed per FCP per day)?

Orebro

The place isn't full of them now because they know like the rest of us that charges are coming and they want to see how it plays out before they invest in vehicles. If it were going to be free in the long term the taxi fleet would change to EV overnight - taxi drivers ain't no fools. I think for the greater good and to protect our lungs and general health, them and buses should the the first to go in our cities. I cycle regularly around Cork City, nothing better to wake you up in the morning than being in the middle of a black Bus Eireann cloud out the back of it.

pwurple

KCross wrote: »

Clearly EV taxis do work. C&C taxis in the UK is a good example. They bought several FCP's for themselves and it paid for itself. Im wondering would 7kW posts also work though or do taxis only spend 10-15mins waiting?

Not to state the bleeding obvious here, but the taxi market in the UK is considerably larger. Can you realistically compare the population of London (8.7 million), to Cork (100,000 population). We have, at a guess, maybe 2 electric taxis?. Hardly warrants a network of FCPs or anything else tbh.

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

The place isn't full of them now because they know like the rest of us that charges are coming and they want to see how it plays out before they invest in vehicles. If it were going to be free in the long term the taxi fleet would change to EV overnight - taxi drivers ain't no fools. I think for the greater good and to protect our lungs and general health, them and buses should the the first to go in our cities. I cycle regularly around Cork City, nothing better to wake you up in the morning than being in the middle of a black Bus Eireann cloud out the back of it.

They really should have their own dedicated FCP's rather than waiting to see how the public charging regime works out.

The success stories in the UK show it works financially to have your own and what taxi company would want a customer to be held up because their taxi is queuing at a public FCP. They need their own FCP's.

KCross

pwurple wrote: »

Not to state the bleeding obvious here, but the taxi market in the UK is considerably larger. Can you realistically compare the population of London (8.7 million), to Cork (100,000 population). We have, at a guess, maybe 2 electric taxis?. Hardly warrants a network of FCPs or anything else tbh.

Cant say I know the London taxi market but I presume a taxi over there isn't travelling the entire population centre of London? They work in boroughs, no?

I don't think Cork needs a network of FCP's but a dedicated FCP per taxi company and maybe one on each taxi rank for topups wouldn't be a bad thing. Small cost and would encourage EV taxi uptake. I'm talking about the small 20kW DC chargers now, not a big fridge sized FCP on the ranks! That would be too ugly for the main streets.

The fact that there is only a handful of taxi EV's in Cork isn't the point. We want to encourage more and its a chicken and egg thing... you need the infrastructure first.

Taxis spend a lot of time waiting around at ranks, there's plenty of time for charging at 7 Kw. So I agree that taxi ranks should have charge points.

At the end of the day there's no denying we need 10 times the number of fast chargers, I hope that if the ESB get the go ahead to own the network that they get the finger out fast and install 300 Kw chargers and certainly not the 45-65 Kw chargers they installed in the past, though they could become the new slow chargers too, but we need faster charging fast chargers or will soon enough.

pwurple

KCross wrote: »

Cant say I know the London taxi market but I presume a taxi over there isn't travelling the entire population centre of London? They work in boroughs, no?

I don't think Cork needs a network of FCP's but a dedicated FCP per taxi company and maybe one on each taxi rank for topups wouldn't be a bad thing. Small cost and would encourage EV taxi uptake. I'm talking about the small 20kW DC chargers now, not a big fridge sized FCP on the ranks! That would be too ugly for the main streets.

The fact that there is only a handful of taxi EV's in Cork isn't the point. We want to encourage more and its a chicken and egg thing... you need the infrastructure first.

Luckily, the infrastructure is already here, and has existed for 5 or 6 years. We must be FLOODED with electric taxi's by now... Oh wait.

A charger on every rank... interesting idea, digging up the city to lay cables to ranks is a project and a half alright though. And let's run through our use-cases shall we? Think this scenario through: Drunk 20 year olds in stilettos falling out of a night club, prancing over charging cables at 3am. See any problem?

Yes, absolutely encourage. Putting more regulation in place, more cost and overhead, and being a dick about recharging is not encouragement by my reckoning. It's more deterrent.

Here is a link on Taxi regulation here if you want to see the hoops they already jump through in their diesels.
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/new-to-the-business/

I don't know how you think taxi companies work... They are independent cars and drivers, who might pay a fee for a phone service.

Maybe you are also oblivious to the taxi history here, and how drivers took out loans to purchase taxi plates, which were overnight rendered worthless. Many of those loans are still being paid off.

Sorry to piss all over this, but sometimes the simplest solution really is the best. Let's all use the same infrastructure and try to get along.

KCross

pwurple wrote: »

Luckily, the infrastructure is already here, and has existed for 5 or 6 years. We must be FLOODED with electric taxi's by now... Oh wait.

I wouldn't agree it is here already as such. If you had a couple of more taxis using it 4 or 5 times a day it would become flooded very fast to the detriment of those trying to do long journeys.

Im not saying they don't have the right to use it today just that the network as is doesn't scale very well within cities when taxis start using it. They really need their own.

pwurple wrote: »

A charger on every rank... interesting idea, digging up the city to lay cables to ranks is a project and a half alright though. And let's run through our use-cases shall we? Think this scenario through: Drunk 20 year olds in stilettos falling out of a night club, prancing over charging cables at 3am. See any problem?

They probably fell over long before they came to the taxi rank!
Im sure you could find your way to resolving that issue. Think outside the box.... maybe the last spot in the line is for charging and you only join the line when you have enough charge and so the taxi at the front of the queue picking up the drunken stilleto wielding 20yr old doesn't have a cable in harms way. Just one idea off the top of my head.

As for digging up the streets... 20kW isn't a lot of power. The works might be minimal as the main streets have power lines and ducting already laid. Its still worth considering surely?

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, absolutely encourage. Putting more regulation in place, more cost and overhead, and being a dick about recharging is not encouragement by my reckoning. It's more deterrent.

Here is a link on Taxi regulation here if you want to see the hoops they already jump through in their diesels.
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/new-to-the-business/

I don't know how you think taxi companies work... They are independent cars and drivers, who might pay a fee for a phone service.

Maybe you are also oblivious to the taxi history here, and how drivers took out loans to purchase taxi plates, which were overnight rendered worthless. Many of those loans are still being paid off.

Not sure what your point in all that was. You are talking about legacy issues that have nothing to do with EV adoption. Putting in EV incentives and charging infrastructure isn't new regulation or costs for taxis.... probably the opposite actually.

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry to piss all over this, but sometimes the simplest solution really is the best. Let's all use the same infrastructure and try to get along.

If we are to all use the same infrastructure it will need significant expansion. Thats not going to happen in the short term... maybe even medium term as eCars believe the network is sufficient already for 20k EV's. If 2 or 3 taxis are already causing queuing issues in Cork we should start looking at alternatives.

Taxis really are a different cohort here and need a separate solution. Chargers at their base and/or ranks would solve that. Thats what the taxi companies in the UK did and it also gives them certainty about charging costs as its their own hardware and electricity. When charging for charging comes in here its unlikely the taxi EV's would be viable.

pwurple

KCross wrote: »

They probably fell over long before they came to the taxi rank!
Im sure you could find your way to resolving that issue. Think outside the box.... maybe the last spot in the line is for charging and you only join the line when you have enough charge and so the taxi at the front of the queue picking up the drunken stilleto wielding 20yr old doesn't have a cable in harms way. Just one idea off the top of my head.

Chargers no-where near punters would be my suggestion.

Not sure what your point in all that was. You are talking about legacy issues that have nothing to do with EV adoption. Putting in EV incentives and charging infrastructure isn't new regulation or costs for taxis.... probably the opposite actually.

Maybe I misunderstood you. Are you talking about taxpayer supplied infrastructure? Because I took it as Taxi-supplied, which is where my rant on how the taxi-drivers already have taken the brunt of several decisions in recent times.

If 2 or 3 taxis are already causing queuing issues in Cork we should start looking at alternatives.

This is the big IF. I don't think they are, because I've seen no evidence of it. One singular report of a hold-up in the order of minutes. It doesn't sound like a problem at all to me.