Neighbours not paying management fees.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 7:16am #1

Non payment of management fees is a massive problem in my estate. The real black spot is my block were the majority of duplexes/apartments don't pay. A number have never paid a cent (some in over 10 grand in debt). The management company say they are powerless as there is not enough money to persue them legally. As insanely infuriating as this is my main issue is the bin shed. My property is attached to the communal bin shed. The bins are not being collected weekly anymore and the smell is horrific. Even with my window's closed I can still smell it and having the window's open aren't an option.

Has anyone had any experience with this? I rang the citizens advice bureau but they had no advice.

Homer · 03-07-2017 7:31am

Are they all owner occupiers or tenants? I know a property own was bought at the height of the bubbly many years ago and a lot of the properties were bought as investments. These landlords don't care about the properties and a large percentage don't pay their fees

The only silver lining for those that do is that the property cannot legally be sold while their is outstanding management fees.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 7:35am

Homer wrote: »

Are they all owner occupiers or tenants? I know a property own was bought at the height of the bubbly many years ago and a lot of the properties were bought as investments. These landlords don't care about the properties and a large percentage don't pay their fees
The only silver lining for those that do is that the property cannot legally be sold while their is outstanding management fees.

Most are rented by people who bought to rent. A couple a owner occupiers who have never paid 1 cent.

Yourself isit · 03-07-2017 7:40am

It's the owners who have to pay anyway regardless of rent.

lawred2 · 03-07-2017 7:43am

This isn't kingswood by any chance?

We had to get out of a place like that because of non payment to the management company. The bin sheds were unbelievable.

squidgeroo · 03-07-2017 8:18am

Can you introduce parking permits? Most managed estates have to do that now in order to ensure payment. Only those that pay get the permits. Need to really start legal action once some payments come in.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 8:22am

lawred2 wrote: »

This isn't kingswood by any chance?

We had to get out of a place like that because of non payment to the management company. The bin sheds were unbelievable.

Not Kingswood. We're hoping to move within the year....mean while we have to live with this stink

Sleeper12 · 03-07-2017 8:23am

ClubDead wrote: »

Non payment of management fees is a massive problem in my estate. The real black spot is my block were the majority of duplexes/apartments don't pay. A number have never paid a cent (some in over 10 grand in debt). The management company say they are powerless as there is not enough money to persue them legally. As insanely infuriating as this is my main issue is the bin shed. My property is attached to the communal bin shed. The bins are not being collected weekly anymore and the smell is horrific. Even with my window's closed I can still smell it and having the window's open aren't an option.

Has anyone had any experience with this? I rang the citizens advice bureau but they had no advice.

They are not that bothered as all back fees have to be paid before a building can be sold. In other words they'll get paid somewhere down the road

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 8:24am

squidgeroo wrote: »

Can you introduce parking permits? Most managed estates have to do that now in order to ensure payment. Only those that pay get the permits. Need to really start legal action once some payments come in.

They seem reluctant to do anything other than reduce bin collections. Last summer we went a whole month without one (for a 32 property communal bin shed).

Yourself isit · 03-07-2017 8:24am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

They are not that bothered as all back fees have to be paid before a building can be sold. In other words they'll get paid somewhere down the road

That doesn't help now.

squidgeroo · 03-07-2017 8:25am

the management company which are the owners - should be bothered as if they don't get paid the will no longer be able to pay for insurance, gardening, bins or the agency that manages it on their behalf. it could be years before any of these apts get sold - too long to wait.

ED E · 03-07-2017 8:25am

Hit them where it hurts, parking.

squidgeroo · 03-07-2017 8:26am

so the owners are reluctant to try and get money in to pay for these services?? you really need an EGM on this. why are they reluctant - it works

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 8:48am

squidgeroo wrote: »

so the owners are reluctant to try and get money in to pay for these services?? you really need an EGM on this. why are they reluctant - it works

They estate is broken up into 50% houses, 25% apartments/duplexes. They houses had there fees reduced to 100e a few years ago and aim to have there fees cancelled. Many of them won't pay fees and fight every suggestion to force payers to pay. The majority of apartments/duplexes are rented and owners don't pay and/or attend EGMs (either way don't care about problems were having).

In other words the majority is made up of vocal apponants to fees and don't support any steps to in force payment.....basically we're screwed, I don't know if there is a solution.

delboythedub · 03-07-2017 8:59am

I think that if you are paying your fees to management company for services your management company must supply these services and it's their problem to collect this money from non payers. End

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 9:03am

delboythedub wrote: »

I think that if you are paying your fees to management company for services your management company must supply these services and it's their problem to collect this money from non payers. End

Yep well aware of that, but that's obviously not happening.

Paulw · 03-07-2017 9:16am

delboythedub wrote: »

I think that if you are paying your fees to management company for services your management company must supply these services and it's their problem to collect this money from non payers. End

Oh, if life was only that simple. Owners ARE the management company. If people don't pay then they hurt themselves, especially in the long run.

It is up to the management company to draw up a budget for services. Members vote on that at the AGM. But, if the budget is approved, but is not affordable, then the directors would be liable.

So, the management company should do all it can to collect fees, especially overdue fees. This can be done in a number of ways. Services such as clamping do have an impact and "encourage" payment. But, failing that, you bring the people to court. It is very very seldom that the management company won't win and get costs awarded. Because of that, many solicitor firms will take the easy work from management companies with a small upfront fee, knowing they will get paid once the case is won. Getting to court is never quick (normally the ones we have had are 2-3 years), but we have always won and been paid. The majority of people don't want it being judged in court, so will arrange a payment plan before the first court date.

In our development we had a payment rate of approx 65%. I, as a director, had enough of this, so with the other directors and management agent, we brought in strict control. Anyone more than 2 years behind was put on to the legal path - solicitor letters, etc, and finally court. We also brought in clamping. That was about 6 years ago now. Currently we have brought 3 people to court and won all. Everyone else began a payment plan (120% of annual fees as a minimum). At the moment, our compliance rate is 98%. We have one unit still behind more than 3 years, and that is due to be heard in court later this year.

If the directors are not doing their jobs, enforcing payment, then you can consider action against them, or report them to the ODCE.

....... · 03-07-2017 9:17am

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ClubDead · 03-07-2017 9:51am

....... wrote: »

Who is the other 25%.

The house owners signed a contract to pay fees - its that simple. Is anyone actively chasing non payers? Sometimes a few phonecalls explaining the problems caused by non payment will persuade some to pay up.

What is the managing agent doing to enforce non payment? They need to introduce measures to encourage payment - for example, change the locks on the bins and only issue new bin keys to payers.

Same for parking, issue permits to payers and then clamp anyone who doesnt have a permit.

25/25% apartments/duplexes, 50% houses.

Yes the house owners signed a contract. But no, it's not that simple. The non payers have been contacted by debt collectors but according to the management company, there is not enough money to take them to court. Non payers are more than aware of the problem. In fact I was told "hard luck, but I'm still not paying" by one of them on social media.

As I said, the majority are house owners want to get rid of fees so they vocally object to parking restrictions etc.

They only steps the management company are taking is stopping bin collections (which the house owners don't care about....nor to the landlords). And reducing the grass cutting.

I don't think there is a real solution....i was hoping to hear that maybe the HSE or EPA has intervened in the passed since it attracting rat's. And I have to live in a house that smells like landfill.

....... · 03-07-2017 10:04am

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03-07-2017 10:09am

ClubDead wrote: »

........The management company say they are powerless as there is not enough money to persue them legally. ................

Has anyone had any experience with this? I rang the citizens advice bureau but they had no advice.

Management company seem sh1t.
The complex I'm in got a decent lash of unpaid fees in after getting solicitors etc involved. Also one or two non payers sold up so they got other cash in that way.

A management company saying they are powerless is a cop out but if loads aren't paying and they don't act that's what can happen.

Parking permits issued upon paying all outstanding management fees might be only way to go. Lots of "innocent" tenants gets fncked over by having no where to park but after 12 months or so problem solved IMO.
Unless there are very few folk with cars living there.

ClubDead wrote: »

..................

As I said, the majority are house owners want to get rid of fees so they vocally object to parking restrictions etc. ...........

Park outside their houses so if there are no restrictions.

ClubDead wrote: »

..............

I don't think there is a real solution....i was hoping to hear that maybe the HSE or EPA has intervened in the passed since it attracting rat's. And I have to live in a house that smells like landfill.

Report the rats you have "seen"

lawred2 · 03-07-2017 10:10am

the management company = the owners

strange mentality that sees people f**king themselves but there you go - that's people for you.

Paulw · 03-07-2017 10:11am

ClubDead wrote: »

The non payers have been contacted by debt collectors but according to the management company, there is not enough money to take them to court.

There are plenty of solicitor firms that will take this on, since when they win, they will get paid.

ClubDead wrote: »

I don't think there is a real solution.

If the directors of the management company aren't doing their jobs, by pushing enforcement of payment, then they can be reported to the ODCE.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 10:21am

lawred2 wrote: »

the management company = the owners

strange mentality that sees people f**king themselves but there you go - that's people for you.

Yup pretty much!

waxon-waxoff · 03-07-2017 10:22am

Overflowing bins will lead to rats, thats another problem.

You need to get out of there asap. It will take a professional, and patient, management agent to turn it around but they wont make enough money to make it worthwhile. So it gets passed around and nothing is achieved. If theres no money to collect bins they are surviving on the last few cents in the bank.

Selling wont be easy as prospective buyers will see the neglect and their lawyer will see the accounts are in bad shape.

SozBbz · 03-07-2017 10:25am

I'm on the board of my management company. This does not sound like something you should have to put ip with.

Can you propose a change in Management Agent? The crowd we're with persue everyone and as a result we always have 100% payment by the end of each year. Yes, some people drag their feet a bit but our MA has a zero tollerance policy so they initiate the legal route and suddenly the money comes in. Typucally a solicitors letter is enough, and we then add the cost of that to the late payers bill, so we're not out anything.

They absolutely can do things to make life uncomfortable for those not paying, as already stated locking the bins and only giving keys/fobs to those who have paid, and introducing a parking permit system.

Perhaps you should get a solicitor to write to them and remind them of their responsibilities as directors. THey're clearly letting their own agenda (stopping fees altogether) get in the way of fullfilling their duties, and this is unacceptable. I'm assuming its the board themselves who don't want these changes, because I know in my experience, we don't go to the membership for every decision. We're been elected to make decisions, so unless those who don't want fees at all are actually the people who comprise the board, then what a few owners think shouldnt come into it. Report to ODCE and health and safety officer of local authority.

Also - try to get on the board yourself at next AGM. Best way to make a difference.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 10:29am

SozBbz wrote: »

I'm on the board of my management company. This does not sound like something you should have to put ip with.

Can you propose a change in Management Agent? The crowd we're with persue everyone and as a result we always have 100% payment by the end of each year. Yes, some people drag their feet a bit but our MA has a zero tollerance policy so they initiate the legal route and suddenly the money comes in. Typucally a solicitors letter is enough, and we then add the cost of that to the late payers bill, so we're not out anything.

They absolutely can do things to make life uncomfortable for those not paying, as already stated locking the bins and only giving keys/fobs to those who have paid, and introducing a parking permit system.

Perhaps you should get a solicitor to write to them and remind them of their responsibilities as directors. THey're clearly letting their own agenda (stopping fees altogether) get in the way of fullfilling their duties, and this is unacceptable. I'm assuming its the board themselves who don't want these changes, because I know in my experience, we don't go to the membership for every decision. We're been elected to make decisions, so unless those who don't want fees at all are actually the people who comprise the board, then what a few owners think shouldnt come into it. Report to ODCE and health and safety officer of local authority.

Also - try to get on the board yourself at next AGM. Best way to make a difference.

Thank you for the advice.

daheff · 03-07-2017 10:35am

....... wrote: »

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Lived in an estate that had very similar issues. The mgmt co went to court, got judgements against apartment & house owners but they still didnt pay. Mgmt co wanted to get the sheriff involved to claim property to sell for the outstanding amounts, but the sheriff advised that it would be very difficult. As the houses/apts were rented and the judgment was against person X at the property, the sheriff could not seize any property as he could not be sure it was belonging to person X (rather than the tenant).

While its all well and good saying if the mgmt co go to court and win they will get the costs, the costs could be due for years before the mgmt co get it (when there is a sale due).

the other issue we found with the mgmt co was that they were doing deals with outstanding amounts because they thought it was better to get something rather than nothing. When that came out at an AGM there was war. I think more people stopped paying because of this.

With regards to the issue of parking, very hard to do this in some places. Unless the mgmt co can legally prove they have ownership of the parking (ie in a mixed development issues between on street & apartments) they cannot start issuing parking certs. Further to anybody thinking of it, you also need to go back to the original sale to see what was included. If a parking spot (or 2/3) were included in the sale, then you have no right to issue certs on those spots. Tread carefully!

....... · 03-07-2017 10:43am

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faceman · 03-07-2017 12:19pm

This is common around the country. It's important to distinguish between the Can't Pays and Wont Pays. Management fees can be extortionate in some complexes.

I know of one apartment complex where if you don't pay your fee that deactivate your building access fob.

LionelNashe · 03-07-2017 12:35pm

If the houses don't need a bin shed, do the duplexes and apartments really need one? Could they just not do kerbside collections and each be responsible for their own individual bins?

lawred2 · 03-07-2017 12:40pm

LionelNashe wrote: »

If the houses don't need a bin shed, do the duplexes and apartments really need one? Could they just not do kerbside collections and each be responsible for their own individual bins?

where would you store your bins if you lived on the 4th floor?

Tigerandahalf · 03-07-2017 12:57pm

Does anyone else feel this new era of management companies managing estates is a bad idea?

Why aren't county councils doing their job? Isn't this why people pay a property tax?

Some people in estates must be doing all the running of the mgt company while others can drag their arse and do nothing.

Are directors taking a payment or getting mgt fees waived for the services they are given?

It seems like a nightmare going in and buying a new house in these new estates. You just don't know what hassle you will get.

....... · 03-07-2017 1:11pm

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wordofwarning · 03-07-2017 1:24pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new era of management companies managing estates is a bad idea?

Maybe, maybe not. If you are not happy with buying a house in a housing estate with a management company, don't buy a house in a housing estate with a management company

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Why aren't county councils doing their job? Isn't this why people pay a property tax?

Councils are stretched financially without taking on vast amounts of housing estates to manage. When people were buying housing in managed estates, they knew what they were buying into ie the council were not going to manage their estate. How can you say the council are not doing their job, when they were never supposed to manage these estates?

Come on the LPT is a joke. When people are paying 1-2% of their property value in LPT like the US, they can question where is the service that they are paying for. New houses are not even paying LPT.

ClubDead · 03-07-2017 1:27pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new era of management companies managing estates is a bad idea?

Why aren't county councils doing their job? Isn't this why people pay a property tax?

Some people in estates must be doing all the running of the mgt company while others can drag their arse and do nothing.

Are directors taking a payment or getting mgt fees waived for the services they are given?

It seems like a nightmare going in and buying a new house in these new estates. You just don't know what hassle you will get.

100% Bad idea. If people think they can get away with not paying bills they won't.

The council have no say on properties run by management companies.

Every few month some good intentioned neighbour tries to take on the task of but is ultimately overcome with the size of the problem. Who has the spare money to take on solicitors? I don't for one.

No, directors don't get paid or have there fees waved.

It is a nightmare. We're hoping to move within the year and will never again live in an estate. It's really made me hate having neighbours....currently looking at caves in the middle of nowhere :ðŸ˜

Paulw · 03-07-2017 1:43pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new era of management companies managing estates is a bad idea?

Yes and no. It very much depends on the unit owners and how the management company is run. When done right, it's not bad at all. The issue is when it's not done right, and when people don't pay their fees.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Why aren't county councils doing their job? Isn't this why people pay a property tax?

What are councils not doing?

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Some people in estates must be doing all the running of the mgt company while others can drag their arse and do nothing.

Yep, and that happens in everything, in every walk of life.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Are directors taking a payment or getting mgt fees waived for the services they are given?

Usually no. Very uncommon for payment or fees waived.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It seems like a nightmare going in and buying a new house in these new estates. You just don't know what hassle you will get.

Good research, good understanding, and good neighbours make it work, and bad ones make it fail. Buying a house can always end up with problems, even in a council managed estate.

Tigerandahalf · 03-07-2017 1:49pm

ClubDead wrote: »

100% Bad idea. If people think they can get away with not paying bills they won't.

The council have no say on properties run by management companies.

Every few month some good intentioned neighbour tries to take on the task of but is ultimately overcome with the size of the problem. Who has the spare money to take on solicitors? I don't for one.

No, directors don't get paid or have there fees waved.

It is a nightmare. We're hoping to move within the year and will never again live in an estate. It's really made me hate having neighbours....currently looking at caves in the middle of nowhere :ðŸ˜

I have a friend who is a director and has her fee waived for acting as a director. No way would she do it for nothing and when no one else offered up their services they agreed to waive her fee.

Personally I think management companies are a bad idea unless you have a system to enforce payment. There is a possibility of people illegally dumping owing to mgt companies locking refuse bins. Of course if people paid it wouldn't be a problem. It is just another example of poor planning in this country. I am surprised that rte as a public broadcaster hasn't covered this topic in one of the numerous property programmes they do.

Surely housing estates built 20 years ago are still managed by county councils. It seems only since townhouses and apartment blocks came on the scene during the boom that things have changed.

Why aren't people obliged to take a mgt company course before buying a house in a managed estate. So many people are clueless as to their rights and responsibilities.

Mrs OBumble · 03-07-2017 1:53pm

OP contact environmental health in your local council - they should put pressure on your management company.

daheff · 03-07-2017 2:12pm

....... wrote: »

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I think it would be very difficult to do so. All the person has to do is say they moved in and its now their primary residence and no court is going to force a sale on a home over a (relatively) small amount.

....... wrote: »

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I think it said something along the lines of access to communal parking -although some have dedicated parking.

faceman wrote: »

This is common around the country. It's important to distinguish between the Can't Pays and Wont Pays. Management fees can be extortionate in some complexes.

Absolutely....I've seen some which have fees >3K per annum.....with little or nothing for that 3k. A lot of mgmt agents cream it off the top if they think they can get away with it.

faceman wrote: »

I know of one apartment complex where if you don't pay your fee that deactivate your building access fob.

There was talk of this, but it was advised that it would be illegal to prevent somebody having access to their home (or renter to a rented apartment).

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new era of management companies managing estates is a bad idea?

Why aren't county councils doing their job? Isn't this why people pay a property tax?

yep I think its a terrible idea for estates -maybe not for apartment complexes. Housing estates do not need a management company. This sh*te started during the boom when councils couldnt handle taking on more responsibility. Laws were changed to require mgmt companies be set up to take over responsibility until the council got around to taking it over. In my previous estate a lot of people didnt want the council to take it over because they were afraid they wouldnt get any service......until it was brought to their attention by a local TD that they were getting no service (green areas were only cut twice one summer) as all the fees were being spent on insurance and lighting -which the council would pay for if it was taken over.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. If you are not happy with buying a house in a housing estate with a management company, don't buy a house in a housing estate with a management company

Ah thats all well in good in principle, but when the property is all you can afford or get, then you are out of choices.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Councils are stretched financially without taking on vast amounts of housing estates to manage. When people were buying housing in managed estates, they knew what they were buying into ie the council were not going to manage their estate. How can you say the council are not doing their job, when they were never supposed to manage these estates? .

What about all the development levies that the councils received for these new estates? They were supposed to pay for upkeep of estates.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Come on the LPT is a joke. When people are paying 1-2% of their property value in LPT like the US, they can question where is the service that they are paying for. New houses are not even paying LPT.

LPT is supposed to pay for all this (and local services). whether there is enough collected or not is a different story.

....... · 03-07-2017 2:19pm

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Tigerandahalf · 03-07-2017 2:25pm

....... wrote: »

I thought directors of OMCs were not allowed to take a fee?

Maybe not take a fee but would waiving their own mgt fee be allowed?

....... · 03-07-2017 2:27pm

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Tigerandahalf · 03-07-2017 2:32pm

I can understand that a management company of some sort would be needed for apartment blocks as the individual doesn't own their own building but just has a lease.

I wonder how it works in mixed developments where some people have detached properties while others could be in apartment blocks or duplexes.

I can imagine people in the detached houses would have no want/need for a mgt company as they would be paying their own house insurance.
Of course landscaping, grass cutting and lights would need to be done but you could end up in an estate with none of the above being done because of wrangles within a mgt company.

GarIT · 03-07-2017 2:40pm

lawred2 wrote: »

the management company = the owners

strange mentality that sees people f**king themselves but there you go - that's people for you.

Except in cases where the management company is a 3rd party company recruited by the owners and take a huge cut on every tiny bit of work done. Which is something many people face.

I was renting (so it didn't bother me as I wasn't paying) in a situation where the management company were a for-profit company that just added huge margins onto everything. "We got the lifts serviced, we added our 25% on top of what the lift company charged for the call we made to them", "We're adding 50% to the grass cutting fees for the time it took us to arrange having the grass cut", "We arranged having the fire alarms checked and we sent out a flyer to inform residents of this, we're charging €5 per apt in a 200apt estate for putting this two line note in your letter box", etc. They couldn't be gotten rid of as the few rich busybodies in the area all went to the agm and voted for it but the unemployed and less well off people who didn't like the high fees didn't go, (their own fault really).

GarIT · 03-07-2017 2:43pm

....... wrote: »

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This can be easily gotten around by voting in a private company to handle the "maintenance" and them turning a profit. The private company can just be a few of the residents working together.

....... · 03-07-2017 2:45pm

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....... · 03-07-2017 2:46pm

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Paulw · 03-07-2017 2:49pm

GarIT wrote: »

Except in cases where the management company is a 3rd party company recruited by the owners and take a huge cut on every tiny bit of work done.

That is a management agent, not the management company.

GarIT wrote: »

They couldn't be gotten rid of as the few rich busybodies in the area all went to the agm and voted for it but the unemployed and less well off people who didn't like the high fees didn't go, (their own fault really).

All it takes is a director's vote at a director's meeting, to change management agent. But, normally such things are done at an AGM, and it only requires an approval. Not hard to do at all.

It will also depend on how contracts are written, between the management company and management agent, but normally there are break clauses.

GarIT · 03-07-2017 2:52pm

....... wrote: »

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You're probably right, everyone called it the management company but I don't know for sure.

....... wrote: »

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Where I was one of the residents was employed to do things like change light bulbs and fix door handles in common areas, might not have been a director though.

GarIT · 03-07-2017 2:55pm

Paulw wrote: »

All it takes is a director's vote at a director's meeting, to change management agent. But, normally such things are done at an AGM, and it only requires an approval. Not hard to do at all.

It will also depend on how contracts are written, between the management company and management agent, but normally there are break clauses.

The directors and anyone else that went to the AGM wanted to keep the agent, anyone I personally talked to, which was only really the apartments on my floor and the guys directly above us weren't happy with the agent.

Neighbours not paying management fees.

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