far out pasture pigs

gr8 m8

Hello.

I'm currently on a theoretical mission to extract the most from my farm and this is the new hair brained idea is have! So bear with me if at all possible.

I have been reading about Joel Salatin and his pigerator pork, have basically uses pigs as areators for his soil and manure piles.

Now my circumstances are that I have access to a large quantity of spent straw from a horse stud and the farm in inherited is run down and in need of a large quantity of TLC.

if I put 100 pigs on 10 acres divided into 26 paddocks and moved them to the next paddock every 2 weeks, ran over the last paddock with a leveling bar and chain harrow then somehow spread the straw out over the paddock and left it break down for whatever amount of time!

Would it:
A) add organic matter to the ground?
B)give grass good growing conditions to tiller?
C)act as mulch over bare soil to stop weeds germinating?

I realise that was a long (but hopefully not pointless ) question to ask.

Any thoughts are welcome, thank you for your time.

Markcheese

First thing is have you much knowledge of keeping/feeding and finishing pigs... They'll eat a lot and cost to finish.. If you haven't much of a market you'll be still paying week in/week out to put fat on their backs.. Do your costings very carefully..
. . There are people successfully rearing pigs in paddocks.. They'll definitely turn your soil and help compost your manure... It can get"interesting" in wet weather...
. .. Try it small first, they'll root out everything and anything and will need to be moved a lot..

_Brian

One thing I've wondered about is the earthworms!!
We keep pigs out on a wee corner ourselves and they eat every single earthworm on sight, 100 would leave a paddock devoid of same.

gr8 m8

Hello.

Thank you for the replies. I have only fed pigs on a dairy farm i worked on years ago and it was only 3 for the farmers freezer. I would start off very small with 2 pigs to see how I get on and maybe work up to a sow or 2 eventually and go from there.

As far as I have heard the supply of organic pork is not able to keep up with demand at present. Other than that I would ideally look into direct sales and local butchers. My plan was to fatten them off high cell count cows milk cultured into yogurt, apple pressings and sprouted barley. Along with hay and finish some of them in a oak forest we own, on all of the above and the acorn drop from the oak trees and what ever they forage.

I imagine it would make for a beautiful tasting meat.

As for earthworms, I've actually been doing vermacomposting for a few years and worms breed so fast that I don't think it would be a problem, I use the figures of 10 acres and 100 pigs just for calculation ease but my understanding is that the pigs stay on that parcel of land for 1 year but moved on every week or two depending on ground and weather conditions, so the first paddock is rested for one year as the pigs don't see that paddock again and the next year they are moved to a different parcel of land in something like a 3-5 year rotation. Cattle and sheep graze it for the following years.

It's the addition of straw to the paddock is where my main questions arise from because a few years ago I left animals into grass that was way to long for them and the weather turned really bad, when I removed them the grass was all trampled and the ground was destroyed in hoof prints but there was no bare soil. When I walked back into that field the next spring is couldn't understand how the field had somehow sorted itself out until I thought of the earthworms. My understanding is that the earthworms had a feast all winter and in return they leveled the clay and fertilised the field for me! Would straw do the same and also in port neautrients?

_Brian

Would also depend on soil type too, if your on heavy marl clay it will just turn to gullion at the first rain and be horrible mess.

Username John

What are you trying to achieve with the pigs?

If this a case of raising pigs, to give good tasting meat - then it sounds savage...

If this is just to put more life back into the soil - what exactly do the pigs offer?
To me - they seem to take the paddocks out of rotation for year... I have no doubt that they would improve it - but would they improve it enough to balance out the fields out of the rotation for 12 months?

Would you get on as well with just putting out a lot of dung every autumn, on a routinely basis, and skip the pigs?

I'm just not sure what the ultimate goal is?

ganmo

If the ultimate goal is to sell the pork as organic the high cell count milk will have to be certified organic

gr8 m8

Hello again,

We have a fine gradient on our farm and the soil has very good drainage. Any flat fields are silage fields and would not be used for pigs.

The milk is semi skimmed milk from organic jersey cows. It's not high cell when it comes out but when I make it into yogurt it will be high cell.

I'm still mainly curious about putting a layer of straw on the pasture and what the outcome would be? Anyone ever do this or is the idea that insane?

Sorry, I missed one of the replies! Many thanks. My aim is a diverse and sustainable farm. If cattle aren't doing well then the pigs pick up the slack. If I can't sell apples then I feed them to the pigs. The idea that many farm enterprises work in sync with each other so there is minimal waste.

Basically just an elaborate plan for the foundation that is already in place on the farm.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Before you do anything with pigs on the farm, you will have to be registered with the Dept of Agriculture before you keep pigs.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationmovement/nationalpigidentificationandtracingsystem/

gr8 m8

More paper work! !!!!!

I'm up with you on that. I would start small and build up some as not to get too far ahead of myself. I'm predominantly trying to work out if this out in my head first.

Thanks for the input.

Buford T. Justice XIX

gr8 m8 wrote: »

More paper work! !!!!!

I'm up with you on that. I would start small and build up some as not to get too far ahead of myself. I'm predominantly trying to work out if this out in my head first.

Thanks for the input.

Dem boxes don't tick themselves....:D

pedigree 6

I have nothing to add to the thread but this thread reminds me of Jimmy Doherty (Jamie Oliver's friend) and his endevours with his outdoor pig farm on TV.

gr8 m8

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Dem boxes don't tick themselves....:D

I get you!
I'll drop the form off at the post office on the way to collect the first couple hundred of pigs! Sure the boys from the department can help me unload the second couple of hundred when they call around!
Sure twill be the finest!

whelan2

This lad here is oh's cousin, he started small and now is doing very well, lovely lad to talk to, might be worth talking to him https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjEk-_e-O3UAhUFiRoKHTiIDOAQFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fthewholehoggs%2F&usg=AFQjCNHV1VDGBO9k2ssexj-FTomdKtRiTA

tractorporn

ganmo wrote:

If the ultimate goal is to sell the pork as organic the high cell count milk will have to be certified organic

Same with the apple pressings and sprouted barley also the forest would have to be certified organic.

Market for organic pork isn't wonderful and what puts most people off is the fact that the pigs have to have outdoor access at all times and that under organics paddocks have to have grass covers. But you seem to have all that figured into your plan.

The really bad summers of 12 and 13 finished most organic pig producers in Ireland.

tractorporn

gr8 m8 wrote:

I get you! I'll drop the form off at the post office on the way to collect the first couple hundred of pigs! Sure the boys from the department can help me unload the second couple of hundred when they call around! Sure twill be the finest!

Took 6 months for the department to issue me with a pig number so don't expect miracles from our friends in the department.

Username John

gr8 m8 wrote: »

I'm still mainly curious about putting a layer of straw on the pasture and what the outcome would be? Anyone ever do this or is the idea that insane?

Basically just an elaborate plan for the foundation that is already in place on the farm.

Plan sounds good...

Did you say the straw was used? So is It dung or more straw type stuff?

Could you pile it up somewhere to rot and then spread at the end of the year?

Although under cross compliance you can't leave dung pulled up in the corner of a field over the winter anymore can you?

ganmo

tractorporn wrote: »

Same with the apple pressings and sprouted barley also the forest would have to be certified organic.

Market for organic pork isn't wonderful and what puts most people off is the fact that the pigs have to have outdoor access at all times and that under organics paddocks have to have grass covers. But you seem to have all that figured into your plan.

The really bad summers of 12 and 13 finished most organic pig producers in Ireland.

There was an article on Agriland not too long ago giving out about the lack of organic Irish pork.
Whoever wrote it had no idea about Irish pork production

gr8 m8

Now that cousin of your oh seems to have a fantastic thing going. I was actually only asking about dexter cattle on this last month! I'll definitely be contacting him.

About the organic forest, I'm guessing it is because it's just natural woodland and it would easily qualify. It's not planted, it's probably over a hundred years old and nothing has ever been done with it except thinnings taken for fire wood. Would that sound about right.

As for the barley, I'll have to source that from an organic fareally but it needs to be organic in order to sprout so I'll just be looking for the organic stamp on it.

The apple trees here are an old orchard of cooking apples and again nothing has ever really been done with them except picking a few for the mother who says they are there all her life and she is in her 70s but more will have to be planted. I'm thinking of basing it on the agroforestry style that teagasc promote but probably limiting it to about 100 trees /acre and planting and legume heavy green manure crop below it that will help fix nitrogen and also allow sheep to graze it before harvest.

gr8 m8

Username John wrote: »

Plan sounds good...

Did you say the straw was used? So is It dung or more straw type stuff?

Could you pile it up somewhere to rot and then spread at the end of the year?

Although under cross compliance you can't leave dung pulled up in the corner of a field over the winter anymore can you?

Okay, it could be called dung and probably should be but I'm calling it loose straw for now because it's 55 round bales a week and if a horse only looks at it then it goes out!

Can we please not dwell on this area?

You are not allowed to leave dung piled in a field over winter, no. I would like to use it for bedding and compost and spread it under over and around everything possible in order to get it away from sight as to not draw attention to it. I can also have any amount of it for free. They will even give me their tractor and trailer to draw it away! Obviously I nearly took their hand off for the offer.

tractorporn

gr8 m8 wrote:

About the organic forest, I'm guessing it is because it's just natural woodland and it would easily qualify. It's not planted, it's probably over a hundred years old and nothing has ever been done with it except thinnings taken for fire wood. Would that sound about right.

gr8 m8 wrote:

As for the barley, I'll have to source that from an organic fareally but it needs to be organic in order to sprout so I'll just be looking for the organic stamp on it.

gr8 m8 wrote:

The apple trees here are an old orchard of cooking apples and again nothing has ever really been done with them except picking a few for the mother who says they are there all her life and she is in her 70s but more will have to be planted. I'm thinking of basing it on the agroforestry style that teagasc promote but probably limiting it to about 100 trees /acre and planting and legume heavy green manure crop below it that will help fix nitrogen and also allow sheep to graze it before harvest.

The rules for converting land to organic are actually quite strict. The Orchard will have to go through a three year conversion period and the land and forest will have to go through at least a one year period before you can sell any pork as organic.

gr8 m8 wrote:

Okay, it could be called dung and probably should be but I'm calling it loose straw for now because it's 55 round bales a week and if a horse only looks at it then it goes out!

gr8 m8 wrote:

Can we please not dwell on this area?

I think you should dwell on this cos if the department/EPA/county council inspect you they would go to town on you for having dung on the land during the closed period.

ganmo

are you thinking about selling direct? Or who are ya thinking of selling yo?

The reason I ask is you might be better not going for organic certification, using the sprouting barley and free range aspect as the selling points. They're fairly unique in pork production

gr8 m8

I'm with you about cross compliance. But you can import straw from any farm even if they aren't organic because there would not be enough organic straw in the country for all these straw bedded organic cattle sheds otherwise.

I wouldn't be piling it in a field, I would be using it to bed the animals with and using it to make compost.

Now if I went to someone's yard for a bale of straw and dropped it in sh!t while crossing the yard I'm still going to have to pay for it and bring it home because obviously the other farmer doesn't want it back? And by the time my animals have their wicked way with it then how can I tell their "gifts " from anyone else's?

I'll look more deeply into this anyway and if I can't get organic status because of this straw then I'll walk away from one or the other!

As for the organic transition stage. I understand it to be 2 year's and even though the pigs in have before that time can not be organic certified, there offspring born after the conversion will be!

I'll make sure I get the woods and orchard transferred over with the other land but the organic payments are not there at the moment but I'm told that they will return. (We live in hope !).

gr8 m8

ganmo wrote: »

are you thinking about selling direct? Or who are ya thinking of selling yo?

The reason I ask is you might be better not going for organic certification, using the sprouting barley and free range aspect as the selling points. They're fairly unique in pork production

I'm thinking about box schemes along with beef and seasonal lamb and mutton firstly, farmers market second and then butchers after that! Hell if it all went well I'd drive it to Dublin and Cork and Dublin and flog my wares to any restaurants or hotels that would have me.

Even export would be talked about because I was in a restaurant in Chicago during the summer with a big sign out the front saying "grass fed beef " it turned out they were importing hereford X beef from new Zealand! I'm closer to Chicago than new Zealand! Ha ha.

Quick question.
If you saw a sign that said "organic apple fed pork sausage finished on acorns and love " would you not try it out of curiosity if it was competitively priced at a farmers market or country show? Just curious.

kowtow

tractorporn wrote: »

Same with the apple pressings and sprouted barley also the forest would have to be certified organic.

Market for organic pork isn't wonderful and what puts most people off is the fact that the pigs have to have outdoor access at all times and that under organics paddocks have to have grass covers. But you seem to have all that figured into your plan.

The really bad summers of 12 and 13 finished most organic pig producers in Ireland.

And - if organic - I suspect the straw as well. I doubt a livery stable would be certified organic even if it was in effect run organically.

Pigs do great on waste milk (I am something of an expert on this...) and indeed on whey which has the advantage of keeping them worm free.

However - and to my mind it's a big however - any of the local butchers i deal with maintain that they can't get any kind of a premium for traditional pigs, rare breed, organic, or otherwise. I know a few people who produce pork for direct sales but I would have thought ten acres was a fair chunk of bacon to be trying to shift. You would definitely have to start small. How about giving them the full salatin treatment by deep bedding a few cattle and throwing fruit in to ferment in the straw, let the pigs go on an alcoholic binge for the fruit while turning the whole bed to compost then spread the lot? ... then turn them away onto some wood land and feed them in the trees.

You could run the cattle on the grass when they weren't indoors and you'd not have such a lot of meat to shift at harvest time?

kowtow

gr8 m8 wrote: »

I'm with you about cross compliance. But you can import straw from any farm even if they aren't organic because there would not be enough organic straw in the country for all these straw bedded organic cattle sheds otherwise.

I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure you can't.

gr8 m8

I could be wrong also, I picked up a binder of organic practices at an organic farm open day and I thought it said that straw can be sourced from non organic farms due to its limited availability in this country. I'll double check if I can find that paperwork.

As for the premium price, I'm basically all about the taste! I want it to be fantastic!

The idea of feeding fermented fruit and grain to pigs in animal bedding troubles me because I have often wondered if it's healthy for a pig to nose through cattle sh!t for its supper? But it's something I'm not completely familiar with so I don't know.

Ever try feeding yogurt to pigs? I do it with calves at about a month old and I find its great stuff to protect against scour and stomach upset. Also I have often stored milk as yogurt for up to 4-5 months and it never smells bad, only yogurty.

ganmo

Restricted
i) The use of all plant wastes and animal manures from non­organic sources are restricted, the need for them must be recognised and approved by the OCB and they must receive the treatments specified before use and be accompanied by the appropriate GM­Declaration Form. Details of the manure must be provided including its source and the animal species and husbandry system from which it came. All imported FYM must come from extensive husbandry. Factory farming origin forbidden in all circumstances.

Bedding
Permitted
i) Straw from non­organic sources (including materials such as bean haulm, and rushes)

The thing is once the horse lies(or the bale is opened) on the straw it's classed as manure or at least it is in my books

gr8 m8

Crap! Literally!

I can still take some until I apply for the organic cert!

The part time boy

I no advise but sounds like interesting plan . Fair play .

I would defo try organic apple fed pork sausage finished on acorns and love.

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

I no advise but sounds like interesting plan . Fair play .

I would defo try organic apple fed pork sausage finished on acorns and love.

This is a bit funny, and I accept that it's prob cos I am a bit odd and maybe getting old and grumpy

But I wouldn't be that into 'organic apple fed pork sausage finished on acorns and love'
When I see 'and love' - it makes me think kinda hippy, which conjures of images of things not being done properly, somehow, unprofessional...
I prefer the idea of my food being managed professionally...

If it was 'organic apple fed pork sausage finished on acorns' - I would be more interested somehow...

Again - I accept it's prob me being odd... and most people might say the opposite

ganmo

The marketing language is important.

Organic apple fed pork doesn't mean the pork is organic. It means the apples are organic.

Buford T. Justice XIX

ganmo wrote: »

The marketing language is important.

Organic apple fed pork doesn't mean the pork is organic. It means the apples are organic.

Organic apple fed organic pork is a bit longwinded though...

gr8 m8

Hello.

I wouldn't really put "and love " on the sign in was just messing around.

If anything I'd put "gr8 m8 happy meals! Now even heavier on the happy! "

Much more professional!

gr8 m8

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Organic apple fed organic pork is a bit longwinded though...

It's going to be a big long sausage !

ganmo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Organic apple fed organic pork is a bit longwinded though...

Apple fed organic pork. Means the pork is organic which means the apples are organic

gr8 m8

ganmo wrote: »

Apple fed organic pork. Means the pork is organic which means the apples are organic

Yeah, that one is right.

gr8 m8

My basic point however is that, whatever its called as long as the information was put across to you. Would you not be curious as to what it tastes like?

ganmo

gr8 m8 wrote: »

Yeah, that one is right.

But if ya go for the first way you'll only need to turn the orchard organic and you'd be able to use the livery straw

Who2

I think your cracked, but if your happy at it then work away.

gr8 m8

I've spent years milking cows and fattening cattle for the commercial market and at the end of it i made just enough money to starve to death !

I've come to the conclusion that is cracked!

Would you mind if I asked you why you think this is cracked? No profit in it or just too "off the wall "? Just out of curiosity.

kowtow

gr8 m8 wrote: »

I've spent years milking cows and fattening cattle for the commercial market and at the end of it i made just enough money to starve to death !

I've come to the conclusion that is cracked!

Would you mind if I asked you why you think this is cracked? No profit in it or just too "off the wall "? Just out of curiosity.

I think it's cracked too, but in a good way.

Like John above the "and love" bit says to me it's all label and no content - which in reality is the opposite of what it is. Truly great products, especially ones you eat or drink, aren't about labeling or packaging - that just keeps mediocre business school mentors and startup schemes in business. Truly great products are the ones that are so naturally good and wonderful that you'd kill to eat them if they came wrapped up in old newspaper.

What worries me is that you have way too large a scale in mind. This kind of thing is best as a local product and in Ireland that means a fairly small product. There are plenty of producers like this in the UK (for example) typically raising rare breed pigs on or around woodland - we used to raise a few Tamworths that way ourselves - but local is key and for you local is Ireland, probably a small part of it.

How many pigs a year would that market realistically take?

Markcheese

Are you going organic?
. . It's bloody expensive to rear pigs organically.. And as someone else said you'll only be able to charge one premium.. So free-range, Apple and acorn fed, organic pork won't get you more of any more of a premium than just free-range..
. . . Pick your breed well, hard to sell over finished, fat pork.. (unless almost all of its going into sausages)...
Biggest problem could be getting a steady market.. (who'll pay you what you need)
. . . But.. It sounds like a great idea..

gr8 m8

Hello.

Sorry, I switched shifts at work. Again thank you for your input and it's great food for thought.

Firstly I will say that I'm not going to section off 10 acres in the morning and put 100 pigs on it after lunch. I was just using round figures. I would start with a few for the freezer and build up as demand dictates. At any moment I could pull the plug and get out.

The idea of 100 pigs was that I would have 5 sows giving an average of 10 piglets per litter twice a year.so say from February to November I have a litter each month or maybe 2 litters every other month. And this can be broken down even more to even a single spring litter and autumn litter. So I could only have one sow to start off with and see how it goes.

My dream of my farm going forward is to be as diverse as possible. The rule of thumb is that everything does two jobs, one for profit and one for sustainability. Apples get pressed into juice or go for cooking and the skins, cores and pressings are ensiled for winter feed. Milk has the cream skimmed off and the cream is sold and the left over skimmed milk is made into yogurt for feeding bought in calves or pigs. Calves and pigs are sold but earn their keep by fertilising the ground and keeping the grass in check, etc.etc.

If something isn't making good money then hopefully something else will take up the slack. And if nothing is making money then obviously what are we all farming for and maybe a more serious and expansive group of questions need to be asked of people much more educated and intelligent than myself?

As for feeding the pigs, if I feed them the skimmed milk, apple pressings, sprouted barley and everything that's not used from the vegetable patch (which I realise I have only mentioned now for the first time ) and give them a organic vitamin and mineral balancer coupled with what they forage from the pasture and woods then would they really require much more supplemental feeding? Bearing in mind that the supply of the above mentioned feeds will dictate the amount of stock i keep.

I was thinking of the Tamworth breed or maybe a Tamworth cross for their hardiness and growing them slow and naturally over maybe 8 to 9 months? (Anyone want to weight in?).

I think that a great saying that I say to myself when I'm dreaming up my "big ideas" is:
You can shear a sheep many times but you can only skin her the once!

Apologies over the length of the post but if there are more questions to ask then I'm delighted to hear them and once more, thank you for your interest.

Who2

Everything you keep mentioning is pure labour. Will you be handing in your notice on the day job? Or are you part time because you've got a fairly wide spectrum of work to cover

carrollsno1

Thought i heard recently the organics scheme was closed could be wrong though

gr8 m8

Hello again.

I will be giving up the day job eventually, I have always viewed it as a means to an end. It will be labour intensive but it will be spread out because the numbers in any one venture will be small and manageable! It will be 8 to 10 cows in the dairy herd. 28 to 35 suckler cattle, styles of grazing that allow minimum effort due to their proximity to the natural cycle of nature.

With organics I won't be spreading fertiliser or dosing cattle and my aim is to have a hardy herd that can stay out in the fields as long as possible.

Apples are only picked in September until the first frost as far as I believe. The idea is to work with the seasons as much as possible and to have a harvest for most seasons.

I would definitely not class myself as any type of hippy but from what I've looked into and watched for the past few years I've learned that nature has great patients and 8f left to her own devices, she will sort out a lot of the problems herself!

Since I've taken an interest in it all I'm constantly amazed by how it all works.

tractorporn

carrollsno1 wrote:

Thought i heard recently the organics scheme was closed could be wrong though

The the organic farming scheme is closed for payments atm but you can convert over anytime you want. But very few convert without the payment.

croot

gr8 m8 wrote: »

Hello again.

I will be giving up the day job eventually, I have always viewed it as a means to an end. It will be labour intensive but it will be spread out because the numbers in any one venture will be small and manageable! It will be 8 to 10 cows in the dairy herd. 28 to 35 suckler cattle, styles of grazing that allow minimum effort due to their proximity to the natural cycle of nature.

With organics I won't be spreading fertiliser or dosing cattle and my aim is to have a hardy herd that can stay out in the fields as long as possible.

Apples are only picked in September until the first frost as far as I believe. The idea is to work with the seasons as much as possible and to have a harvest for most seasons.

I would definitely not class myself as any type of hippy but from what I've looked into and watched for the past few years I've learned that nature has great patients and 8f left to her own devices, she will sort out a lot of the problems herself!

Since I've taken an interest in it all I'm constantly amazed by how it all works.

I think you may be ahead of the pack on this. It seems to be the way food production is heading (for the premium market at least). Sustainability will be the buzzword and its clear to see that most of the chemical sprays and antibiotic's or medicines are coming under pressure from the green lobby so its only a short hop to the EU deciding future SFP will be linked to a more organic like approach.

And I for one would definitely buy meat like you've described at a farmers market for the curiosity alone to start but if it tasted good you'd get repeat custom.

gr8 m8

Hello yet again.

I don't want any of this to sound condescending and if it does then take note that it was not my intention!

I wish I could claim it was ahead of the curve but it's my belief that this has all been done before by the generations gone before us.

My grandmother often spoke about how they got the whey and skimmed milk back from the creamery after they took the cream from it and how everyone had an orchard and grew apples and plumbs for deserts and jam making. My grand uncle kept bees to pollinate the trees and sold the honey over the winter.

My uncle set a half acre of potatoes every year to sell when the milk check was gone over the winter along with fire wood! Any potatoes left were cooked for feeding to the pigs.

Apparently animals were more content because they could forage in the hedgerows for ivy and whatever else they could find and it's been proven I believe that an animal will self medicate on all these "weeds" in order to achieve a balanced diet which reduces a lot of drugs being needed.

The pasture of that time were not simply ryegrass but a collection of between 10 and 20 different varieties of grass, legumes and herbs with each having its own pros in the animals diets.

I suppose I'm just basically trying to return to the old ways of farming but on a larger scale than what my family did before me!

Birdnuts

Tasted acorn fattened rare breed pork in France a couple of years ago - totally different experience to the bland stuff you get in the shops here. These pigs have access to oak woods for the summer/autumn and basically rear themselves till slaughter