Home heating automation

Roberto_gas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862724#Comment_122862724

it was slow yday..working fine today

Glebee

Something still not right with mine, it seems to come on on time alright but if I make any adjustments during operation it can take a 1 minute or more to turn of a rad or turn off the heat. Starting to not trust it which was never the case.

Dozz

I installed a Tado system last year. Not a fan I have to say. Seems to ignore most of my schedules and do it's own thing which is quiet annoying.

Preferred the nest thermostat.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122867683#Comment_122867683

You can examine the graph on any date which will show the room thermostat response v schedule temperature by sliding your finger along the graph line. If the actual temperature curve does not follow the schedule changes over time, there is generally a reasion. If an old wall thermostat has been left in circuit after installing a wireless Tado, this can prevent the Tado from operating the boiler intermittently. Similarly, older controllers should be set to always on if they were not removed out of the control circuit.

Another issue that may arise is if the boiler flow temperature is set too low, in which case the boiler stat will cut the boiler firing while the Tado is still calling for heat. In these circumstances the room may heat to target temperature on mild days but not on colder days. Also check if the open window detection is not being triggered, which will override the schedule.

Another issue is the placement of the main stat. If this is located on a poorly insulated outer wall, in direct sunlight, over a radiator, or any other circumstance that can cause too high or too low a temperature reading, then the actual overall temperature of the home will be at variance with the schedule.

The place to start though is with the graphs, see what they say. It could be as simple as loose connection on one of the stat or extension kit wiring terminals causing unreliable firing of the boiler.

Roberto_gas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122867020#Comment_122867020

I was told it will not trigger stuff instantly as boilers switching is not like a light switch..it needs to complete its thing before shutting off

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122867991#Comment_122867991

True, and it's very boiler dependant, condensing boilers and gas boilers may have several steps before firing. It may have pre and post firing fan purge, it may run the circulation pump only until the heat exchanger temperature lowers to a condensing efficient temperature, all of which might take a minute from when the actual stat relay clicks. It's not unusual to have a few seconds delay due to server connection from say manually pushing up set temperature on the app to when the stat relay clicks, followed by another delay as the boiler does it's own housekeeping.

ECO_Mental

I have a house with 12 zones of heating, all underfloor upstairs and downstairs and the heating is controlled by these controllers (all 12 of 'em☺️) and while they are ok, I just had them set if they dip below a temp they triggered the heatpump to come on and open a valve on a manaifold for that room. Now I am changing my heating strategy where I want to have less zones and generally more contollable (pain in the hass going around to all 12 to make any adjustments). I would also like them to controllable using home assisatant so wifi enabled.

What is my best solution here…from my basic understanding these temp sensors are simple machines they just send a signal back to controller that opens an acuator and tells the HP to come on when the temp is below the set level.

Could I get rid of them an put in something like a shelly relay and have that trigger through a HA automation! or is there a straight swap I can put in here with a temp stat that has wifi and can be intergrated with HA

Dozz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122867834#Comment_122867834

Thanks @deezell, I will look into those other issues you mentioned.

I have looked at the graph and unfortunately it doesn't represent what happening for me.

I have the temperature set in the living area (location of the thermostat) to 17 degrees from 930 at night and at 1030 the radiators are hot even though its still 20 degrees in the room.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870184#Comment_122870184

You could do it with Shellys alright - you would need something like a Zigbee dongle on the HA server, then remote sensors in each room. Then you could put Shellys into the wall where the existing controllers are. Each Shelly would then be the heating switch obviously and the room sensor would return the temperatures instantly. I have that working here and it's perfect.

Your other option would be to use ESPHome and a relay hub like this:

https://www.athom.tech/blank-1/8ch-inching-self-lock-relay

I currently have the 4-channel version of that on my bench here under test.

Then create 8 climate controllers in ESPHome (one per relay) and have it manage the temps but be controlled by Home Assistant.

https://esphome.io/components/climate/

ECO_Mental

What you are doing there @10-10-20 is right fancy and beyond my paygrade🫣 I have a zigbee network and 6 aquara temp sensors but if I'm doing it I want WiFi...while zigbee is OK it's nowhere near as stable as WiFi. I have little mini shelly 1pm that might work the trick. I have one Stat that does the end of a hall that if I did mess it up it mighnt matter. Also I have my heat pump service technician calling in a couple of weeks and he can fix it if it goes wrong.

Need to do some more research

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122872030#Comment_122872030

😁 Nah, Zigbee is just for reporting temps and humidity, not for connectivity with the Shelly controller. As long as you have some Zigbee router devices (such as light bulbs left powered on but turned off) then you'll have a more stable Zigbee network.

Try the PM1, it's overkill for the need here (as it's a power monitoring device), but it will do fine to get you started.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122870184#Comment_122870184

You have 12 of those? Any one could be used as the master for a grouped heating zone. 4 wired stats could control 3 ufh rooms each, or perhaps a mix of 4s, 3s, 2s and single, with the chosen zone stat located in the key or master room. 4 wired smart thermostats such as Tado could replace your chosen retained masters, and would give full flexible scheduled time and temperature control. E.g, bedrooms in one or two groups, living areas similarly. At about €100 per wired stat (currently less on a black Friday deal), you could have a completely automated app cintrolled smart heating system with a more manageable number of zones.

If there were warmer or cooler rooms in the zone group due to uneven heat loss profile of a room (north facing, corner room with more external walls etc.), it should be possible to balance this by judicious tweaking of a rooms flow rate at the manifold. All things being equal, ufh should impart the same heat per m² in any room, but other factors such as window size, ventilation, open doors, rugs, will affect this. Work out a plan for combining rooms, see how many zones will cover it, and just use the control voltage from one stat to activate the heating to more than one ufh manifold electric valve. It's that simple. Then swap out these basic electronic stats for wired smart.Tado.

ECO_Mental

Took the Temp stat off the wall and there is only 3 wires coming out of the Joule temp stat…this must be easy to do…I just connect the live and neutral from the Joule Stat (connections 1 & 2) into the L & N of the Shelly. Then wire the output 3A live (No4 on the Joule) to the Shelly 1pm Mini output connection (Connection O)see wiring diagram below for the shelly..

Easy peasy! am I right or wrong??

Shelly 1PM Mini wiring.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122873672#Comment_122873672

Yep, looks right to me.

ECO_Mental

Well that worked a treat!!!

5 minute job… I now have the shelly controlling one of my temp stats. Just turned switched the Shelly On and it fired the HP, turned on the circulation pump and opened the actuator, turned the Shelly off and everything went off.

Now just to order up 11 more 😎 Although you can buy a bundle of two of them for €29 it wont break the bank.

Need to get a blanking plate for the box and jobs a gud un.

It might be a Christmas project at this stage as I have my HP service technician coming in a week or two and he goes around to all the stats to make sure the settings are ok and fires them one by one to see check flow rates so having all shelly switches might cause confusion.

This will give me unlimited control over the heating and run fancy automations in HA etc, have it voice controlled also

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874477#Comment_122874477

Go for the non-PM version - they are cheaper as they don't have the current meter fitted.

https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-1-gen3

Did you connect it to a thermostat in HA yet? There is a good one called Advanced Heating Control.

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/advanced-heating-control/469873

It might do what you need, but I haven't played with fully yet.

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874511#Comment_122874511

Yeah but for the extra 1 or 2 euro it's worth having the power monitoring gives options and a nice to have. All those 5 Watts add up😁

jiminho

IMG_4229.jpeg

hi folks - I have a combi boiler with rads throughout the house. It’s 2 no. Zone (upstairs and downstairs) and I have 2 no hive thermostats, one on each floor. System works really well, house temp is kept very consistent, love the app etc. I have noticed two things:

1. I’ve attached the trends graph from the app (which is a fantastic feature). As you can see, the boiler is turning off and on throughout the day, just a few minutes at a time. I don’t really have an issue with this in principle but as it’s using a combo boiler as a heat source, would this constant on and off throughout the day cause the boiler to wear out faster? Is there a way to change the sensitivity of the thermostat e.g wait for the temp to drop perhaps a degree or half a degree lower than set temp before turning on the boiler?
2. Heat rises! I have a fairly open upstairs and downstairs landing with a radiator situated in both. I’ve noticed that the downstairs rads are on significantly more than the upstairs rads. Most days could look like downstairs on for two hours but upstairs on for only 15 minutes in the morning or at all. This isn’t really an issue but is there a way to make the system more efficient or are there any issues with how the system is performing as is?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874654#Comment_122874654

1. No. There’s nothing to wear out that wouldn't occur over steady burning anyway. The combi Direct HW operation will fire the boiler eveytime a tap is turned on anyway. The on-off nature of the CH firing is more likely due to the smart nature of the stat as it calculates rate of change of measured temperature, it modulates the firing as a means of approaching the set temperature smoothly, and holds it there by a series of short calculated bursts. What you're suggesting is actually the problem with old mechanical thermostats, where the actual room temperature is a constant overshoot/undershoot, often a very noticeable 2-3° over or under.
2. Heat does rise, so the upstairs rads will have less to do, and as a consequence the upstairs stat, assuming it's on the landing, will spend less time responding to a drop below scheduled set temperature, especially if upstairs daytime temperatures are set lower as bedrooms are empty until evenings mostly.

christy c

Hi Deezell. Long story, but I have a 2 zone drayton kit, and a house that has three zones.

I could get a 3 zone kit, but could I make it work with what I have? What would I need to do on the backplate?if you wouldn't mind dumbing it down for me please.

Thanks

ECO_Mental

Nothing done yet all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874511#Comment_122874511

Nothing advanced done yet with the Shelly. Just set up one automation for it to come on in the middle of the night when I have the super low EV rate. I'll wait until I have them all installed which might be over Christmas but in a couple of weeks at least by the time I get another 11🫣

Need to look at that advanced Heating Control you linked to but I'm thinking of keeping it simple enough I don't think it has to be fancy with the HP..slow and steady is the key. Just run a few automation to turn on if the weather looks cold or the internal temp. Sky's the limit now really in what I can do

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876028#Comment_122876028

There's a PID based thermostat too which might be ideal for underfloor if you have the time to work out the P, I and D values. I'm looking at evaluating them for my needs at the moment, I'll update here.

https://github.com/ScratMan/HASmartThermostat

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122875201#Comment_122875201

If you buy a complete 3 zone kit, with two stats and a 3 zone receiver, you'll have to rewire the backplate for the new receiver. Your old backplate was wired

N L HW (3) and CH (4).

The Three zone receiver is wired ,

N L CH1(1) HW(2) CH2(3).

These are the three Wiser wiring diagrams for 1, 2 and 3 zone receivers.

There are two wires visible to CH terminal 4 of your current baseplate. I assume these wires are the two CH zone control wires, (one is using a green/yellow earth wire, not the safest idea...). You'll connect these individually to terminals 1 and 3, after you move HW from 3 to 2.

You might ask can you keep your old 2 zone and just add the single zone Kit1 stat and receiver. You could, but there are issues with having two seperate wifi connected Wiser controllers visible to the same app, as normally each would require a seperate instance of the app to operate. I don't see why it shouldn't work, but a straight replacement of the kit 2 by the kit 3 is probably the best solution. You can box up the other and easily sell it on the ads sites.

christy c

Thanks Deezell. A gent as always

encryptix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860641#Comment_122860641

Hi Deezell,

I tried this at the weekend and couldn't get it working. Hoping you wont mind giving your opinion.

The water and downstairs zone when triggered would open the valve but no triggering of the boiler (left it about 20-25 minutes too). The upstairs zone when activated, did nothing (Additional thermostat wire joined).

Should I have put the second wire in 5 (not the one that is the jump from 2) somewhere? Does it make sense that the boiler wouldn't fire/be called for heat?

All is ok when I put the wiring back to how it was and reconnected the Climote.

Thank you

Roberto_gas

Whats general view of gas consumption

Always maintain thermostat temp(multiple calls to boiler)

VS

Schedule for two three times during day

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885164#Comment_122885164

On your original Image there are live jumpers to 1,2 and 5, the three zones' commons, which are hardwired in the Wiser. I also see an extra wire jumpered off 5, which heads off back out. This is probably the live to the motorised valves' relay contacts, switched to the boiler whenever any valve is actuated. This extra black wire on 5 must be connected to Live on the Wiser plate.

This one

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885464#Comment_122885464

Depends on your use-case of the house and the need of the people there-in. If it is occupied over the course of the day then the system should be left running on a thermostat; otherwise I'd be just boosting it at the points when people occupy it. As a test I left mine running yesterday as there were multiple people in the house, it came on automatically 6 times over the course of the day with the boosts in the morning being ~20 mins and the boost in the late evening being ~50 mins.

But that's not my default setting - I normally just leave it off until people get home at 6 and then boost it for an hour or more, but we also have a wood stove to add to the heating input.

So yeah - there is no one answer to that question. 😁

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885464#Comment_122885464

Schedule different times with different temperatures, different you have zones then have differential temperatures, I.e, lower upstairs during daytime, and use a geolocation to turn down the temperatures when the hoous is vacant. All this requires a smart stat and the app on the phones of all family for the geolocation. It's definitely more economical to smart schedule set and forget, than chasing the temperature like a human thermostat with bursts of boost. The structure of the house is slower to heat if left completely off, and will absorb a lot of your boost so it will still feel cold despite the rads hopping.

BullBauld

Hi I'm looking to upgrade to a smart thermostat. I've 3 zones, downstairs, upstairs and hot water.

What should I be looking out for. Wired or wireless systems. Can this be changed over myself or should I get a electrician in.

Any recommendations or comments appreciated .