Electric gates repair recommendation

mikekerry

Hi,
I am finding it hard to locate someone to have a look at repairing electric gates & intercom in Dublin ( problem with wiring).
The previous guy that fixed it charged 300 euro so I don't want to get caught paying that again.
Anybody have any recommendations.
Failing that is it straightforward to convert the gates back to manual gates?
thanks

Sleeper12

I think by law now you must use a security company to install & repair so I wouldn't be expecting a cheap job

mikekerry

I don't expect a cheap job just a reasonable price.
if I'm paying out amounts of 300 a year on maintenance it would be easier to get the gates converted to manual.

Sleeper12

Sorry. That might have come out wrong. I meant to say that because it's a regulated industry & it's illegal for someone else to install & repair that the prices are more expensive.

Gate Automation

Check them: http://rem-ltd.com/

mikekerry

ok thanks I made a booking with REM electrical

The high horse brigade

mikekerry wrote: »

I don't expect a cheap job just a reasonable price.
if I'm paying out amounts of 300 a year on maintenance it would be easier to get the gates converted to manual.

300 a year isn't much. It's a regulated industry, expect to pay about 150 per hour, 500+ per day. Annual maintenance would be about half a day, this is just a quick look to ensure all safeties are in order and the paperwork to say the same. Gates are dangerous and can and do kill people.

JonnyM

Try these guys too www.nordeal.ie

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

It's a regulated industry

I don't think so. Electric gates can be installed by anyone once the electrical supply is from a spur outlet (most are). The installer does not have to be qualified in any area (although some are). They do not need to be a REC.

Who regulates them?

expect to pay about 150 per hour

Seriously? :eek:
i can understand a call out charge and a high hourly rate but this is outrageous. If correct then why only €500 per day??

The high horse brigade

Gates are covered under lots of existing EU regulations. The HSA has issued guidelines.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Safety_Alerts/2010/Electric_Gates_Alert/

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Gates are covered under lots of existing EU regulations. The HSA has issued guidelines.

I am not disputing that.
So who are you claiming regulates this industry in Ireland?

The high horse brigade

2011 wrote: »

I am not disputing that.
So who are you claiming regulates this industry in Ireland?

Guidelines are as good as regulations. If your gate injures or kills someone the first thing a judge will ask is if the regulations and guidelines have been adhered to.

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Guidelines are as good as regulations. If your gate injures or kills someone the first thing a judge will ask is if the regulations and guidelines have been adhered to.

They can be dangerous alright. I installed a few. Never aware of anyone regulating this industry. I've even seen plumbers installing electric gates. They did a good job too in fairness.

The high horse brigade

2011 wrote: »

They can be dangerous alright. I installed a few. Never aware of anyone regulating this industry. I've even seen plumbers installing electric gates. They did a good job too in fairness.

I was at a meeting down the country last year where the HSA launched these guidelines. The PSA were present and will be regulating this area before long

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

The PSA were present and will be regulating this area before long

You do know that very few electric gates are secure ? A triangular shaped key will open most of them. They are primarily for convenience or to stop animals. So I can't see why the PSA would be involved. Anyway they don't regulate it now.

JonnyM

You must have a license from the psa to install an automated gate.

http://www.psa.gov.ie/Website/psa/psa.nsf/agentvw?Openform&vw=psaLicensing

2011

No mention of automated gates on that link. The access control mentioned is defined as "security equipment".
So this only applies to security gates which would only be a small fraction of all automated gates.

Just like CCTV, security cameras can only be installed by a PSA licensed person whereas other CCTV cameras (such as a calving cameras) can be installed by anyone.

JonnyM

2011 wrote: »

No mention of automated gates on that link. The access control mentioned is defined as "security equipment".
So this only applies to security gates which would only be a small fraction of all automated gates.

Just like CCTV, security cameras can only be installed by a PSA licensed person whereas other CCTV cameras (such as a calving cameras) can be installed by anyone.

Automated gates is access control.

Where it says defined as security equipment immediately after that in brackets it says access control.

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/standards

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/WP15000046

2011

JonnyM wrote: »

Automated gates is access control.

Not as defined in your PSA link. See direct quote of the entire definition:

The definition of Access Control as defined in S.I. No: 144 of 2012 states:

“ installer of security equipment (access control) “ means a person who installs, maintains, repairs or services security equipment that consists of electronic or other devices designed, constructed or adapted to control or record access by persons or vehicles to or within premises where such equipment is situated"

It is very clear that access control can be installed by a non-PSA registered person once it is not installed for security reasons. Why else would the PSA definition would the PSA definition specifically refer to "security equipment"??

JonnyM

2011 wrote: »

Not as defined in your PSA link. See direct quote of the entire definition:

What would you class automated gates as??

I would class them as access control.

2011

JonnyM wrote: »

What would you class automated gates as??

I would class them as access control.

So would I, but the PSA define it differently. Why do you think that is? The clue is in the name, Private Security Authority.

JonnyM

2011 wrote: »

So would I, but the PSA define it differently. Why do you think that is? The clue is in the name, Private Security Authority.

I don't think they do if you read the definition again where it states that 'control or record of access' which if I'm not misunderstanding is an automated gate.

That's the way I see it.

2011

JonnyM wrote: »

I don't think they do if you read the definition again where it states that 'control or record of access' which if I'm not misunderstanding is an automated gate.

You are correct, the definition does say 'control or record of access' but it says the after it says 'security equipment'. So it is control or record of access of security equipment.

I agree that an automated gate "controls access" and therefore is a form of access control. However the Private security Authority is only there to regulate aspects of the security industry. I agree that this can include access control, but only when the access control is installed for security reasons.

Example of electric gates installed for security reasons: The gates on the British embassy in the picture below. These would not be easy to bypass. Therefore a PSA licensed installer is required.


Example of electric gates that it could be argued are not installed for security reasons: The electric gates in this picture are not difficult to climb over / open / bypass. Therefore a PSA licensed installer is not required.



The same logic applies to CCTV. If it is installed for security reasons it must be installed by a PSA registered installer. So if for example CCTV is installed in a factory to monitor the quality of products being manufactured by an operator it does not have to be installed by a PSA registered installer.

It is the same with doormen, if they provide security they must be PSA licensed. This doorman is this picture does not have to be PSA licensed




Anyway, I have gone wayyy of topic so back to the OP.
My original point was that paying someone €150 per hour per hour to repair electric gates is ridiculous whether the industry is regulated or not. Furthermore nobody that charges €150 per hour will work for €500 a day That was in response to this post.

The high horse brigade

2011 wrote: »

Anyway, I have gone wayyy of topic so back to the OP.
My original point was that paying someone €150 per hour per hour to repair electric gates is ridiculous whether the industry is regulated or not. Furthermore nobody that charges €150 per hour will work for €500 a day That was in response to this post.

I said 500+ , a company charging 150 per hour callout will charge 500+ per day day rate. Many companies in the business charge a full day rate for a callout longer than 4 hours

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I said 500+ , a company charging 150 per hour callout will charge 500+ per day day rate.

Leaving the regulated / not regulated bit aside, your previous post makes no mention of a out charge.
So if the €150 per hour rate includes a call out charge how much are the subsequent hours charged at?

Many companies in the business charge a full day rate for a callout longer than 4 hours

Over €1000 a day, plus a mark up on materials, no doubt there is a call out charge on top of this too. Almost sounds too good to be true...
Great money if you can get it

I doubt these prices are achievable simply because I know from personal experience that there isn't a lot to electric gates. I installed quite a few and learned how to do so just from reading the manual. I have also know that more complex electrical installs pay so much less.

The high horse brigade

2011 wrote: »

Leaving the regulated / not regulated bit aside, your previous post makes no mention of a out charge.
So if the €150 per hour rate includes a call out charge how much are the subsequent hours charged at?

About 150 per hour is what gate automation companies charge, two hours is 300

2011 wrote: »

Over €1000 for an eight hour day, plus a mark up on materials, no doubt there is a call out charge on top of this too. Almost sounds too good to be true...
Great money if you can get it

I said 500+ per day day rate. More than 4 hours gets chared as a day at the day rate

2011 wrote: »

I doubt these prices are achievable simply because I know from personal experience that there isn't a lot to electric gates. I installed quite a few and learned how to do so just from reading the manual. I have also know that more complex electrical installs pay so much less.

I'm dealing with companies that have the proper installation and safety training and they charge these rates. Two weeks ago a callout to the West of Ireland to change a photocell cost 830.
There is a lot to gate safety even if you don't think so. The maintainer of the gate is the one responsible if anything goes wrong. The gate should be certified and there should be a full maintenance record. Gates can and do kill people.

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

About 150 per hour is what gate automation companies charge, two hours is 300

Wow fantastic money.

I said 500+ per day day rate. More than 4 hours gets chared as a day at the day rate

Yup, so 4 hour and five minutes on one job is €500+ do the same on another job and you are on €1000+ a day just like I said.

I'm dealing with companies that have the proper installation and safety training and they charge these rates.

The project I am working on at present employs the services of mechanical and electrical engineers in two different countries. In addition we have contracted electricians, instrument technicians and automation engineers in Ireland. I am not going to pretend that I am running the whole show, but I see all of the rates of pay. As we are designing and building grid connected turbines we also need to have some appreciation of safety...

Stoner

I'd agree with 2011.

Barriers gates and access control / security are not the same thing.

An electric gate like mine has no security value. It's keeps dog sh1t out of my garden,it's handy and automated, mine is linked to my home av system so I can open it with my phone.

It's no different to any gate and less secure than a gate with a lock. The recessed posts are a security device.

Security, CCTV yes to PSA, but not an electric gate. It's even tendered seperately in the ARM tenders where access control, security systems, CCTV and Barrier control are all seperate line items.

On the logic that an electric gate is a security item , so is hanging a front door that provides access to a house IMO. Or a manual pole barrier to be operated by a security guard or the recessed post suggested above. The only difference is a motor/ requirement for cables.

The gate is the security item just as the post or door is.

With a CCTV or security alarm you are adding items to monitor and alert , for most electrical gates it's just another way of opening it, but not the only way, you can step over mine or open the mechanisms
I'd agree that you could alarm a gate or Barrier, that would be PSA work, just like alarming a front door or window, or adding a maglock

To cable the motor and intercom, I'd argue you'd need to be a REC as usually the power supply is a dedicated new circuit in SWA or surface conduit, they require PSUs and possibly two new items of switchgear installed in a consumer unit, so way beyond the simple connection to a fused spur a security technician is permitted to undertake.

150 per hour per man is great money if you can get it. It's nowhere near any private or government framework contract I've ever seen but if people are willing to pay it so be it, great clients well done!! possibly the service is top class and or extra fast.

Sleeper12

Stoner wrote:

Barriers gates and access control / security are not the same thing.

I think it all changed recently. I think only security companies can work on motorised gates. There were ads on the radio recently and that's what I took from the ad. It's down to the safety aspect of it. A closing gate could kill a child if not serviced correctly.
Happy to be corrected here but that's what I took from the radio ad

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I think it all changed recently. I think only security companies can work on motorised gates. There were ads on the radio recently and that's what I took from the ad. It's down to the safety aspect of it. A closing gate could kill a child if not serviced correctly.
Happy to be corrected here but that's what I took from the radio ad

There are far more dangerous systems than automated gates such as compactors, centrifuges, agitators, fairground rides. None of these need to be installed by PSA licensed installers. With all due respect to the PSA they are not uniquely qualified to deal with the safety aspects of automated gates. No matter how people try to spin it automated gate systems and their associated safety interlocks are not that complicated.

If you don't believe that the PSA are only to deal with security then read their mission statement.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

There are far more dangerous systems than automated gates such as compactors, centrifuges, agitators, fairground rides. None of these need to be installed by PSA licensed installers. With all due respect to the PSA they are not uniquely qualified to deal with the safety aspects of automated gates. No matter how people try to spin it automated gate systems and their associated safety interlocks are not that complicated.

If you don't believe that the PSA are only to deal with security then read their mission statement.

Like I said I'm happy to be corrected. My info was based solely on a radio ad. I was assuming it was like restricted works for REC or gas work for RGI

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Like I said I'm happy to be corrected. My info was based solely on a radio ad. I was assuming it was like restricted works for REC or gas work for RGI

Fair enough.
I'm basing my opinion on the PSA's definition of access control. My personal view is that interested parties try to regulate as much work as they can when they see an opportunity. Work that was traditionally done my electricians such as intruder alarms has since been regulated. This revenue stream has now been cut off to any that are not PSA. Was this in the public interest? Maybe, maybe not. Was it in the alarm installers interest? Definitely.

I think we will see more of this in the future.

The high horse brigade

2011 wrote: »

No matter how people try to spin it automated gate systems and their associated safety interlocks are not that complicated.

We are following the UK who after a few deaths from gates have introduced regulations. There is a lot more to modern gate operators which not only use photo cells and safety edges but also require the programming and setting of encoders. An installer needs manufacturer training and the gate needs to be force tested with the measurements recorded when it's installed.

The PSA has started a consultation process for the possible revision of their standards regarding access control

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/NS17000011

2011

The high horse brigade wrote: »

We are following the UK who after a few deaths from gates have introduced regulations. There is a lot more to modern gate operators which not only use photo cells and safety edges but also require the programming and setting of encoders. An installer needs manufacturer training and the gate needs to be force tested with the measurements recorded when it's installed.

The PSA has started a consultation process for the possible revision of their standards regarding access control

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/NS17000011

Soft interlocks and hard interlocks, sounds good.


Interestingly the consultation paper is titled "Requirements for Access Control Contractors in the Private Security Industry"

Tuco88

If that's the going rate for access control call outs... I have to re-consider my career or the boom is back big time.

I used to think the verdor lads had it made, commission a valve/weigh scales so on... One fella was over €1400 a day + expenses.

No offence intended to anyone and with all due respect, I'd rater be horse whipped than pay that out, utter extortion.

It's been a while as far as I can remember a poly/poly and a power supply on a common domestic set-up? Setting up/programming fancy heating circuit is just as, if not more complicated and can be very dangerous also!

If you can get that off a person fair play, I'm just really jealous I guess ☺.

mikekerry

HI,
In the end (snip) did 3 hours maintenance on the gates for a reasonable price.
They did a very good job.

2011

mikekerry wrote: »

HI,
In the end (snip) did 3 hours maintenance on the gates for a reasonable price.
They did a very good job.

So less than €150 per hour + call out charge?

mikekerry

it worked out a lot less than 150 p/h.
It was a standard one fee maintenance charge so they didn't charge by the hour.
If it was 150 p/h it just wouldn't be worth the cost of keeping them if they needed repairs every year.

poker--addict

Any recommendations available for electric gate repairs DM me

meath