RTB Cases, do they get enforced

Hi

I posted here recently about issues with a tenant who didnt move due to house sale falling through.

Long story short i am now having to go RTB route. If we do get a finding for overholding in my favour, how enforcable is this?

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi

I posted here recently about issues with a tenant who didnt move due to house sale falling through.

Long story short i am now having to go RTB route. If we do get a finding for overholding in my favour, how enforcable is this?

Its an RTB ruling.
If the tenant decides to ignore the ruling- then you have to go to court to enforce it.
You cannot go to court first- you have to go to the RTB.
However- they can't enforce anything (to cut a long story short).

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its an RTB ruling.
If the tenant decides to ignore the ruling- then you have to go to court to enforce it.
You cannot go to court first- you have to go to the RTB.
However- they can't enforce anything (to cut a long story short).

Thanks.

Are they compelled to attend this? My worry is he just will not show up.
Had promised to move out a while back and still there now.

whippet

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Thanks.

Are they compelled to attend this? My worry is he just will not show up.
Had promised to move out a while back and still there now.

they can't be compelled - but it would look very unfavourable on the party who fails to show to a hearing.

whippet

whippet wrote: »

they can't be compelled - but it would look very unfavourable on the party who fails to show to a hearing.

Thanks.

If they dont does the case for non payment of rent go in my favour. It should be fairly straight forward

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Thanks.

If they dont does the case for non payment of rent go in my favour. It should be fairly straight forward

It won't automatically go in your favour- no, however, you would have a vastly stronger case if he decided to ignore it.

However- even if there is a determination in your favour- you still have to go to court to enforce it.

The whole process is a mess.

srsly78

Even if you win everything the tenant will probably claim to have no money, then you might be left with a small attachment order of e10/week or less.

jamesthepeach

srsly78 wrote: »

Even if you win everything the tenant will probably claim to have no money, then you might be left with a small attachment order of e10/week or less.

Divide that by 10

So am i only now looking to just get him out now at this stage. I know he has a very good job.

Could the sale falling through and my EA not performing repairs go against me in terms of no rent

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

So am i only now looking to just get him out now at this stage. I know he has a very good job.

Could the sale falling through and my EA not performing repairs go against me in terms of no rent

No.
A tenant has to pay rent, period.
He/she does not get to decide that paying rent is optional.
If he/she has an issue with lack of repairs etc- they have to take a case against you.
They do not get to withhold rent- without your express permission to do so.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

No.
A tenant has to pay rent, period.
He/she does not get to decide that paying rent is optional.
If he/she has an issue with lack of repairs etc- they have to take a case against you.
They do not get to withhold rent- without your express permission to do so.

I didnt think so.
It should be fairly straight forward to win so.

I had felt guilty initially about my causing the sale to fall through.

KrakityJones

From experience no RTB are pretty much pointless.

Had a clearcut case where landlord illegally withheld deposit, RTB ruled against him. Sent enforcement/demand letters etc. Landlord stuck the two fingers up and said nope not paying it and that was it. Could have bought him to court but the time/costs involved wasn't worthwhile.

Graham

srsly78 wrote: »

Even if you win everything the tenant will probably claim to have no money, then you might be left with a small attachment order of e10/week or less.

Or may pay up to avoid a judgment against him. Good job, just bought a house.....

pilly

I remember the thread you're talking about. I thought that they had bought somewhere else. What happened with that?

pilly

pilly wrote: »

I remember the thread you're talking about. I thought that they had bought somewhere else. What happened with that?

I am unsure. From what i know he did buy and was due to move,maybe there was a delay?=

If i win with RTB then go to court, do costs not get awarded to me.

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I am unsure. From what i know he did buy and was due to move,maybe there was a delay?=

If i win with RTB then go to court, do costs not get awarded to me.

I'd imagine so, again it's a risk you take that he'll pay up.

Look maybe the threat of court action will be enough.

How many months rent does he now owe?

mrslancaster

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its an RTB ruling.
If the tenant decides to ignore the ruling- then you have to go to court to enforce it.
You cannot go to court first- you have to go to the RTB.
However- they can't enforce anything (to cut a long story short).

what is the point of going through the rtb if they can't enforce the ruling? is it in some legislation that the rtb is the way to sort out a problem between tenants & LL

I remember something similar with the board that was set up to handle car accidents years ago, think it was called the PIAB. people were told they had to go through them & couldn't go straight to the courts but AFAIK that turned out to be incorrect & people were free to go straight to court through their solicitor.

is the rtb something similar to the piab?

maybe someone has knowledge of this

pilly

pilly wrote: »

I'd imagine so, again it's a risk you take that he'll pay up.

Look maybe the threat of court action will be enough.

How many months rent does he now owe?

Its three at this stage.

My only concern is, it can be proven that i delayed a sale by not engaging and also not informing him of an issue i had with the deeds.

Since the sale has been cancelled the house price has gone up. Would it not look like i delayed the sale and ignored queries to gain a better deal later.

Can the tenant claim for surveys etc done to the house for the sale..

Graham

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Its three at this stage.

My only concern is, it can be proven that i delayed a sale by not engaging and also not informing him of an issue i had with the deeds.

Since the sale has been cancelled the house price has gone up. Would it not look like i delayed the sale and ignored queries to gain a better deal later.

Can the tenant claim for surveys etc done to the house for the sale..

None of that is relevant to the unpaid rent.

The_Conductor

mrslancaster wrote: »

what is the point of going through the rtb if they can't enforce the ruling? is it in some legislation that the rtb is the way to sort out a problem between tenants & LL

I remember something similar with the board that was set up to handle car accidents years ago, think it was called the PIAB. people were told they had to go through them & couldn't go straight to the courts but AFAIK that turned out to be incorrect & people were free to go straight to court through their solicitor.

is the rtb something similar to the piab?

maybe someone has knowledge of this

Under the Residential Tenancies Act- which governs all residential letting in the country- the RTB is the designated agency tasked with regulating the sector- and where disputes arise between landlords and tenants- you are obliged- under the Act- to pursue a case via the RTB.

If you try to go straight to court- you will be batted back to the RTB- as you will be in breach of the Act- by not pursuing a case through the RTB.

The RTB though- does not have the means to enforce its judgements- if a tenant, or a landlord, decides to ignore a judgement or a determination order- the wronged party then has to go to a court with the judgement or order- and request the court enforce it.

Its a round-about way of doing things- and it means some less scrupulous people, both tenants and landlords, hold up two fingers to the RTB- and ignore it- safe in the knowledge its too costly and time consuming for a tenant or a landlord to chase a case to court- esp. as penury can be claimed- and its not worth your while to pursue a case if you're only going to get a couple of quid a week for the next 20 years- in satisfaction of a ruling.

The system patently does not work- and less scrupulous tenants and landlords know this- and abuse this knowledge in their favour.

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Its three at this stage.

My only concern is, it can be proven that i delayed a sale by not engaging and also not informing him of an issue i had with the deeds.

Since the sale has been cancelled the house price has gone up. Would it not look like i delayed the sale and ignored queries to gain a better deal later.

Can the tenant claim for surveys etc done to the house for the sale..

No, they can't.
I couldn't tell you how many surveys I've had done on properties that fell through for various reasons down the years- but its more than I can count on my two hands.
The tenant is obliged to pay rent. Period. Anything else- is a separate matter.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Under the Residential Tenancies Act- which governs all residential letting in the country- the RTB is the designated agency tasked with regulating the sector- and where disputes arise between landlords and tenants- you are obliged- under the Act- to pursue a case via the RTB.

If you try to go straight to court- you will be batted back to the RTB- as you will be in breach of the Act- by not pursuing a case through the RTB.

The RTB though- does not have the means to enforce its judgements- if a tenant, or a landlord, decides to ignore a judgement or a determination order- the wronged party then has to go to a court with the judgement or order- and request the court enforce it.

Its a round-about way of doing things- and it means some less scrupulous people, both tenants and landlords, hold up two fingers to the RTB- and ignore it- safe in the knowledge its too costly and time consuming for a tenant or a landlord to chase a case to court- esp. as penury can be claimed- and its not worth your while to pursue a case if you're only going to get a couple of quid a week for the next 20 years- in satisfaction of a ruling.

The system patently does not work- and less scrupulous tenants and landlords know this- and abuse this knowledge in their favour.

Yes, this is how i feel at present. Not sure how long it will take to chase up.

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Its three at this stage.

My only concern is, it can be proven that i delayed a sale by not engaging and also not informing him of an issue i had with the deeds.

Since the sale has been cancelled the house price has gone up. Would it not look like i delayed the sale and ignored queries to gain a better deal later.

Can the tenant claim for surveys etc done to the house for the sale..

Have you tried negotiating to get him out at all. I think you said he had carried out some work and purchased a washing machine etc. This plus the deposit would nearly cover most your loss here if you can just get him out fast.

Are channels of communication open at all?

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

No, they can't.
I couldn't tell you how many surveys I've had done on properties that fell through for various reasons down the years- but its more than I can count on my two hands.
The tenant is obliged to pay rent. Period. Anything else- is a separate matter.

Its just how i feel it looks.

I have issued numerous notices over last three years for a sale, then i go sale agreed only to not follow throigh, in the mesnwhile ignoring repair requests.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Have you tried negotiating to get him out at all. I think you said he had carried out some work and purchased a washing machine etc. This plus the deposit would nearly cover most your loss here if you can just get him out fast.

Are channels of communication open at all?

Tried a while back and he said he was going. Other than that it was all through the EA.

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Tried a while back and he said he was going. Other than that it was all through the EA.

Honestly- I'd have fired the EA a long time ago (having read your other thread).

You need to initiate an RTB case- at once, the guy is playing you for a fool.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- I'd have fired the EA a long time ago (having read your other thread).

You need to initiate an RTB case- at once, the guy is playing you for a fool.

Ea was fired.

Case was opened a month ago, documents have been sent out.

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Ea was fired.

Case was opened a month ago, documents have been sent out.

Its a waiting game in that case. I wish it wasn't so damn procedural- but it is.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its a waiting game in that case. I wish it wasn't so damn procedural- but it is.

It is. I dont even know if he is still at the house.
Should i vetify this.

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

It is. I dont even know if he is still at the house.
Should i vetify this.

Informally- remember, even if he isn't paying his rent, legally he is still entitled to 'peaceful enjoyment' of the property. Asking a neighbour would probably be the way to go- rather than hassling him directly.

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Tried a while back and he said he was going. Other than that it was all through the EA.

Okay, I'm glad you fired this EA because he has been the cause of a lot of your problems.

I'm just telling you now what I would do as a LL. I would call to see him, apologise profusely for all the hassle etc. etc. and appeal to his human decency. Tell him you're really stuck blah blah and can you come to some sort of agreement.

A man to man agreement is going to be a lot quicker and less painful than the long drawn out RTB then Court route.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Informally- remember, even if he isn't paying his rent, legally he is still entitled to 'peaceful enjoyment' of the property. Asking a neighbour would probably be the way to go- rather than hassling him directly.

Informally would mean unreliable. I can hardly go to RTB and say i saw him there.

Has anyone experience of getting money back at the other side?

aluminium

KrakityJones wrote: »

From experience no RTB are pretty much pointless.

Had a clearcut case where landlord illegally withheld deposit, RTB ruled against him. Sent enforcement/demand letters etc. Landlord stuck the two fingers up and said nope not paying it and that was it. Could have bought him to court but the time/costs involved wasn't worthwhile.

If the tenant went to the RTB with / through Threshold aren't (?) Threshold more likely to seek enforcement through the Courts? (on the tenants behalf).

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Informally would mean unreliable. I can hardly go to RTB and say i saw him there.

Has anyone experience of getting money back at the other side?

Surely if you find out he's gone then your problem is solved?

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Surely if you find out he's gone then your problem is solved?

Still want the money at this stage, i was happy to let it go if he moved, but now think i might chase it.

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Still want the money at this stage, i was happy to let it go if he moved, but now think i might chase it.

That's up to you but if he's gone I think you're wasting time and money.

gizmo81

The RTB will enforce in certain cases. Here are some outcomes from Circuit Court

https://www.rtb.ie/media-research/court-decisions/enforcement-of-orders/2016

There were 356 requests for enforcement in 2016 and 204 Circuit Court Orders granted.

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/enforcement-of-orders/order-enforcement-statistics

aluminium

gizmo81 wrote: »

The RTB will enforce in certain cases. Here are some outcomes from Circuit Court

https://www.rtb.ie/media-research/court-decisions/enforcement-of-orders/2016

There were 356 requests for enforcement in 2016 and 204 Circuit Court Orders granted.

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/enforcement-of-orders/order-enforcement-statistics

Thanks, thats helpful.

Do you have any insight as to why the RTB enforce some cases and not others?

I saw one of the cases above relating to a house in Knocklyon, rent arrears and overholding. €21,698. Assuming 1200 a month rent - thats a long time to get enforcement.

gizmo81

I don't really know how they chose to enforce, I had a cursory glance over some and it seems they are running into the thousands not the smaller amounts.

aluminium wrote: »

Thanks, thats helpful.

Do you have any insight as to why the RTB enforce some cases and not others?

I saw one of the cases above relating to a house in Knocklyon, rent arrears and overholding. €21,698. Assuming 1200 a month rent - thats a long time to get enforcement.

aluminium

gizmo81 wrote: »

I don't really know how they chose to enforce, I had a cursory glance over some and it seems they are running into the thousands not the smaller amounts.

I just had a look at a few cases on your links. I then followed googling some of the names involved.

To see the damage / overholding / arrears involved and then see that the Judge lets the tenants continue residing in the property is really bizarre.

Landlords are getting it from every angle.

Claw Hammer

mrslancaster wrote: »

what is the point of going through the rtb if they can't enforce the ruling? is it in some legislation that the rtb is the way to sort out a problem between tenants & LL

I remember something similar with the board that was set up to handle car accidents years ago, think it was called the PIAB. people were told they had to go through them & couldn't go straight to the courts but AFAIK that turned out to be incorrect & people were free to go straight to court through their solicitor.

is the rtb something similar to the piab?

maybe someone has knowledge of this

All disputes between landlords and tenants which are comprehended by the RTA must go through the RTB first. Same with PIAB. People cannot ignore PIAB and go straight to court.

gizmo81

gizmo81 wrote: »

I don't really know how they chose to enforce, I had a cursory glance over some and it seems they are running into the thousands not the smaller amounts.

aluminium wrote: »

Thanks, thats helpful.

Do you have any insight as to why the RTB enforce some cases and not others?

I saw one of the cases above relating to a house in Knocklyon, rent arrears and overholding. €21,698. Assuming 1200 a month rent - thats a long time to get enforcement.

Some cases were for small amounts.

I wonder are those the cases the rtb found in favour of LL and then were persued.

Has anyone here as an LL had any experiemce with this

ED E

Who were the two wagons involved in a case in like Dalkey/Killiney, believe one was American? Found against but still remained in the house for like 2.5yrs IIRC? Cant remember enough keywords for google to throw it up.

The_Conductor

ED E wrote: »

Who were the two wagons involved in a case in like Dalkey/Killiney, believe one was American? Found against but still remained in the house for like 2.5yrs IIRC? Cant remember enough keywords for google to throw it up.

Doing a google- also can't find it, though I remember it well.
The media was all over it.
Don't 'get' why its so hard to find........
Maybe they used their 'right to forget' option on Google- if so, it damn well works........

Graham

December 9th the landlord was granted possession of the house (Twin Trees) with a stay until January 6th. On January 20th they were still in occupation and were appealing the court decision.

I won't name the individuals here but it looks like there's a few articles that still refer.

aluminium

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Has anyone here as an LL had any experiemce with this

I have been before the old PRTB several times.

The most common case involved tenants viewing, paying deposit, presenting references, signing leases, moving in, transferring utilities, paying rent in advance and then CHANGING THEIR MINDS!!!!!!!!! and wanted there deposits back. Usually they were moving because they fell out with someone they were sharing with. (I had 9 studios at the time)

Me having turned down other tenants, removing advert off DAFT, registering with PRTB etc etc. Loss of rent etc.

The ugliest cases were where Threshold got involved. One individual in particular acted like she had a point to prove. She had experience, could turn anything you said into a crime.

I always kept records of phone calls, texts and emails. Leases were always sent by email.



I was always amazed how the PRTB always let the cases go ahead. I always "won". In that I was permitted to retain the deposit.

jamesthepeach

The_Conductor wrote: »

Doing a google- also can't find it, though I remember it well.
The media was all over it.
Don't 'get' why its so hard to find........
Maybe they used their 'right to forget' option on Google- if so, it damn well works........

Wonder are they paying their rent now?
I doubt they got a reference anyway.

http://www.herald.ie/news/were-not-privileged-weve-nowhere-to-go-mum-and-daughter-living-rent-free-35280146.html

https://twitter.com/TheJanusProject/status/601098235818713089

Some info here too

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64044&sid=f7fe03a01896225542b532c196e1c7e6

Claw Hammer

http://www.herald.ie/news/mum-and-daughter-who-owe-11k-rent-still-in-dalkey-home-35381512.html


Nothing obscure about it.

ED E

The Herald wouldnt be my first choice of evidential publication but that case epitomises the Irish rental framework.

beauf

Won, in that never had to pay a fine, or return deposit. But not won in that any money lost was never recovered.