11 deaths this year , will we get the facts?

jon1981

The public need details on each of these "accidents", there has to be lessons learned for both cyclist and motorist. It's not good enough to publish a small inquest summary on the 15th page of a broadsheet a year after each incident, we need a full report summary involving all these accidents on what the hell is going on.

Is it bad luck? Lack of road awareness? Bad safety equipment? Bad driving?

A full campaign is needed here, where the hell is the voice of cycling Ireland in all this?

Annie get your Run

I was literally just thinking the exact same thing. I'm sure there's an element of not wanting to further traumatize either of the families involved but there must be a way to do it so that everyone can learn.

deandean

Yes, absolutely.
From the small amount of info that's been published, I have noticed a change in the last year. Most fatal cycling accidents had traditionally involved lorries, and noticeably construction trucks. However the majority of the more recent accidents seem to have involved cars.

jon1981

Obviously the most recent death is too soon to talk about, but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely ... how does an accident result in a death?

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

micar

jon1981 wrote: »

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

07Lapierre

micar wrote: »

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

Just send Shane Ross an invite to Dublin Cycling Campaigns AGM!

http://www.dublincycling.ie/

Leroy42

micar wrote: »

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

I wouldn't worry about that. More important to get something down on "paper" on get it sent than worry about style of writing.

It is the weight of the outcry rather than the outcry itself that is the trigger on these things.

Don't wait for the perfect e-mail or letter. Do one yourself and send it off.

It will be ignored anyway, at best a cut and paste reply. But if enough people contact them enough then they will be forced to do something if for no other reason than to avoid looking like they ignored it should something happen in the future.

This is what I am sending.

Dear Minister Ross,

There has been an significant increase in the number of cyclists being killed on our roads in the last number of months.

Can you assure me that steps are being taken to get a full understanding of circumstances in the accidents and whether any learnings take be taken.

What plans are in place to advise the public of these findings.

Finally, do you have a plan for reducing the fatalities and are there timelines for the plans to be implemented.

Yours ......

ED E

Already raised this question

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057740486/1/#post103499410

mr spuckler

jon1981 wrote: »

but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely

unfortunately cars do drive way too fast in built up areas / housing estates.

the new 30kpkh / slow zones initiative is currently a complete waste of time because as ever there's no enforcement. new speed limit signage has been erected at the front of my estate showing the child playing with a ball etc and yet i constantly still see people belting up and down our estate much faster than 30kph.

however, as we saw in the case of the cyclist who collided with a pedestrian in the Phoenix park last year speed doesn't have to be an issue and may well not have been in the latest case.

i fully agree with your general point though, i want to know how and why these deaths are occuring.

Annie get your Run

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about that. More important to get something down on "paper" on get it sent than worry about style of writing.

It is the weight of the outcry rather than the outcry itself that is the trigger on these things.

Don't wait for the perfect e-mail or letter. Do one yourself and send it off.

It will be ignored anyway, at best a cut and paste reply. But if enough people contact them enough then they will be forced to do something if for no other reason than to avoid looking like they ignored it should something happen in the future.

This is what I am sending.

Dear Minister Ross,

There has been an significant increase in the number of cyclists being killed on our roads in the last number of months.

Can you assure me that steps are being taken to get a full understanding of circumstances in the accidents and whether any learnings take be taken.

What plans are in place to advise the public of these findings.

Finally, do you have a plan for reducing the fatalities and are there timelines for the plans to be implemented.

Yours ......

I think I'll add to that that this has happened on his watch...

Macy0161

jon1981 wrote: »

Obviously the most recent death is too soon to talk about, but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely ... how does an accident result in a death?

Will it even be properly investigated?

A number of the deaths this year (not just yesterdays), have quoted Gardai as saying it is "just a tragic accident". If they're starting investigations with that mindset, I really doubt they're going to come up with anything helpful.

ford2600

jon1981 wrote: »

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

In spite of the fact that most cyclist deaths are due to errors/careless/dangerous driving as a cyclist you can do a lot to mitigate your risk of any accident.

This forum is obsessed with arguing with motorists rather than proactively pushing roadcraft, information on safe route selection etc. Look how busy thus thread was (despite it being essential reading). Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

Between experienced users there are millions of miles commuting safely among Dublin's trafffic roads. Put that knowledge to use rather than asking that self serving incompetent khunt in Stepaside to help you


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

Johnny Jukebox

Shane actually lives in a lovely house in Enniskerry but spends a lot of his time standing on the traffic island in Stepaside village holding a sign about re-opening the Garda station in one hand and messing with his phone with the other hand...

magicbastarder

jon1981 wrote: »

It's not good enough to publish a small inquest summary on the 15th page of a broadsheet a year after each incident, we need a full report summary involving all these accidents on what the hell is going on.

the main question i'd ask is where this would be published; if on the CI site or dublin cycling campaign, etc., it likely going to be preaching to the converted, though that could be a first step.

cruizer101

ford2600 wrote: »

Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

That article you linked is very good, really should be mandatory reading for driving licence, here is direct link to it.

Link to Article

tunney

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

tomasrojo

tunney wrote: »

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

That's how quite a few people would like to "solve" the problem. It's a worry. I mean, if you put people off cycling, you "solve" the cycling "problem", but since cycling is an effective solution to a raft of other problems, it's not a good approach. But if your brief is to address road traffic deaths, deaths through inactivity or air pollution is the problem of another department.

The number of deaths is ten, by the way. This probably sounds like heartless pedantry, but it also illustrates how small changes to small totals (even minor categorisation decisions; one cyclist death has become a pedestrian wheeling a bike) change the percentages disproportionately.

07Lapierre

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

Good Idea:
I made a few suggestions already:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103475279&postcount=38

Annie get your Run

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

In spite of the fact that most cyclist deaths are due to errors/careless/dangerous driving as a cyclist you can do a lot to mitigate your risk of any accident.

This forum is obsessed with arguing with motorists rather than proactively pushing roadcraft, information on safe route selection etc. Look how busy thus thread was (despite it being essential reading). Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

Between experienced users there are millions of miles commuting safely among Dublin's trafffic roads. Put that knowledge to use rather than asking that self serving incompetent khunt in Stepaside to help you


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

That is a very interesting article, I don't disagree with your comment about mitigating risks but that will go only so far. We still need to somehow get driver attitude changed. Apart from anything else if we don't do something now it will only get worse and god help us all if it gets worse and worse. The way we are heading now is moving towards total removal of cyclists from our roads and it won't take long a the current rate.

listermint

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

Wasnt the cyclist involved in yesterdays incident heavily involved in promoting roadcraft safe cycling.

None of this gets answers for people btw, Writing to the minister to make sure that steps are taken to actually understand the cause of accidents is helpful and more helpful than what you are suggesting.

Without knowing the facts of an accident your roadcraft is misdirected.

loyatemu

there have been a lot of deaths this year, but we won't know the causes until there have been inquests held.

Presumably though we could go back to (say) 2015 and compile the inquest result for all the deaths that year to try and get some sort of picture of what are the common causes (maybe someone like the RSA has already done this).

Even so, this would be an incomplete picture as it only covers accidents where the cyclist died.

kenmc

tunney wrote: »

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

07Lapierre

kenmc wrote: »

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

ED E

07Lapierre wrote: »

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

tomasrojo

Based on Australian experience, helmets cannot fail; they can only be failed. (People still aren't wearing "their" helmets; they're wearing them wrong; they really are working, there's just been a massive increase in bad behaviour by cyclists that cancels out the protective effect; etc.)

ford2600

listermint wrote: »

Wasnt the cyclist involved in yesterdays incident heavily involved in promoting roadcraft safe cycling.

None of this gets answers for people btw, Writing to the minister to make sure that steps are taken to actually understand the cause of accidents is helpful and more helpful than what you are suggesting.

Without knowing the facts of an accident your roadcraft is misdirected.

Every fatality is investigated by a specialist unit of the Gardaí. They are all trained at De Montfert University in investigating road accidents. They close road and collect all evidence, impound vehicles/bicycles/interview everyone. It's pretty thorough, do detailed digital road survey. Prosecution follows if the evidence warrants it.

Once investigation is over, making those documents public would be as good as you could hope for.

I've investigated a lot of road deaths; the same sh1t keeps happening. Year in year out.

The information on how to build safe roads, cycle lanes is all there. The training for drivers/cyclists is all there. We have enough information.

07Lapierre

ED E wrote: »

Y'see! in your photo that's clearly the cyclists own fault! No helmet and No hi-viz!

Leroy42

07Lapierre wrote: »

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

Yes, I think that will be along shortly.

Even look at some of the advice given out - I don't disagree with it but it paints a picture of cyclists being in the way- Choose a safer/quieter route, avoid right hand hurns etc.

Why? I am as much a part of traffic as the next guy and it is part of the licence that motorists assume responsibility for the safety of those they share the road with in as much as possible.

It is a simple solution, a vote getter, and will have clear results (less fatalities is hard to argue with).

There will no review of how totally unsuitable trucks are for an urban environment, no review of lack of adequate infrastructure (the left turn from Dame Street to Georges street which means that Buses can turn if other traffic is turning right off Georges Street for example)

the_pen_turner

it is one of my bug bears as well. what good it total no of fatalities if the reasons aren't known. this goes for all road users.


the problem is that there is a reluctance to blame the person that died for the crash
we need to stop that mind set so that we can look at the causes of crashes and see how we can reduce them

tomasrojo

I can't get onto some off-road cycle tracks with the bakfiets. The kerbs are dished all wrong, and if I approach at any type of speed, I'll turn the bike over. And it scarcely seems worth gingerly negotiating my way onto some of them, because I'll only have to negotiate my way back onto the road within about 20m anyway.

tomasrojo

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even look at some of the advice given out

[...]
avoid right hand turns

I'm going to enjoy circling my neighbourhood in safety.

07Lapierre

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, I think that will be along shortly.

Even look at some of the advice given out - I don't disagree with it but it paints a picture of cyclists being in the way- Choose a safer/quieter route, avoid right hand hurns etc.

Do you not think this advice could apply to any form of transport? (well, maybe not a train! )

Even when I'm driving, I usually try to choose a route that has less traffic/ lights/junctions etc. Obviously it's not as critical when driving, and it's probably because I do this when cycling, that makes me think about these things when driving, but its all about making your journey as stress free as possible.

07Lapierre

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm going to enjoy circling my neighbourhood in safety.

To clarify...the original advise was:
"if you can, choose a route that involves less right hand turns, roundabouts, junctions etc."

Leroy42

07Lapierre wrote: »

Do you not think this advice could apply to any form of transport? (well, maybe not a train! )

Even when I'm driving, I usually try to choose a route that has less traffic/ lights/junctions etc. Obviously it's not as critical when driving, and it's probably because I do this when cycling, that makes me think about these things when driving, but its all about making your journey as stress free as possible.

07Lapierre wrote: »

To clarify...the original advise was:
"if you can, choose a route that involves less right hand turns, roundabouts, junctions etc."

As I said in my post I don't disagree with it, but it paints the picture that cyclists should somehow try to avoid traffic.

Well no, cyclists are traffic.

Again, its a short term solution. Of course if all cyclists stay off the road then there will be no cycling fatalities, but its hardly a reasonable solution and it only serves to shift the responsibility away from motorists

Macy0161

ford2600 wrote: »

Every fatality is investigated by a specialist unit of the Gardaí. They are all trained at De Montfert University in investigating road accidents. They close road and collect all evidence, impound vehicles/bicycles/interview everyone. It's pretty thorough, do detailed digital road survey. Prosecution follows if the evidence warrants it.

That's reassuring actually, as like I said, the "tragic accident" bit really annoys me. However, then back into the DPP, and then the courts system.

Would be great if they were published, either after a decision not prosecute or after a case has been brought.

ford2600

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's reassuring actually, as like I said, the "tragic accident" bit really annoys me. However, then back into the DPP, and then the courts system.

Would be great if they were published, either after a decision not prosecute or after a case has been brought.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Finding%20your%20Way%20-%20A%20%20guide%20for%20victims%20of%20RTC%27s.pdf

On every incident Gardaí liase with specialist section of NRA to investigate if road contributed to accident. .

Often at that stage, where road redesign is warranted the county council bullsh1t can happen.

https://goo.gl/KPL4Hp

At that location to only real engineering solution to improve a pretty horrific sightline is
*knock the house
*close by road for traffic emerging onto road

Best of luck getting those past Healy Rae, Ming and the rest. Often in fact where NRA have a design in compliance with all ISO/BS etc, when they go back to inspect the work the local county councilor muppets have involved themselves in the redesign and build. I wish I made that up

Atlantic Dawn

I think full details of the reports in to each death should be published and be available online so lessons can be learned. Doesn't need to be a blame game just publish the facts similar to MCIB...

http://www.mcib.ie

I spotted 2 cyclists on their phones during the week, one swerved about a metre across my path while struggling with it, the other was going steady but still shouldn't be using it. Mind you in the same time I have spotted at least 30 people in their cars on phones, rate of use must be 25% plus in cars.

Guy Sajer

They will never ban cycling. The country will just look stupid, especially when tourists come and see how many people would be still cycling and how bad the police force must be if the laws are broken so easily.

In honesty who would stop cycling if they banned it. How are they going to enforce it? They really want to lose the revenue that cycling generates.

Driver's don't care anymore. Driving safely messages are just another boring lecture like manual handling courses at work. You can't rely on them to self teach themselves. It needs routine driving tests, continuous assessment via tracking devices

Just yesterday I saw a driver pull away at lights change with both hands tying up her ponytail.

07Lapierre

Leroy42 wrote: »

As I said in my post I don't disagree with it, but it paints the picture that cyclists should somehow try to avoid traffic.

Well no, cyclists are traffic.

Again, its a short term solution. Of course if all cyclists stay off the road then there will be no cycling fatalities, but its hardly a reasonable solution and it only serves to shift the responsibility away from motorists

Fair enough. When I'm cycling, I'm cycling for enjoyment, not to protest/ defend my rights as a road user. I choose a route that suits me. My advise is for others to do the same. If that means cycling along a busy road ( which it does for me on my commute..the R139) your absolutely right...as legitimate traffic, cyclists should not feel intimidated by others to take a different route. But I do think that if a newbie cyclist had to cycle my commuting route, it would probably turn them off cycling for good.

At the end of the day, everyone is different. As an experienced cyclist and motorist, my idea of a safe commute may differ from someone who is less experienced, doesn't cycle etc. Guess we'll never please everyone.

tunney

kenmc wrote: »

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

Road tax mandatory for cyclists
Insurance mandatory for cyclists
And a Cycling license

jon1981

tunney wrote: »

Road tax mandatory for cyclists
Insurance mandatory for cyclists
And a Cycling license

What an opportunity for the compo vultures.... insured cyclists ... will be the end of cycling in Ireland if this ever happened.

MysticMonk

kenmc wrote:

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

Cycling proficiency tests and penalty points for dangerous cycling.

I've never seen a fatal accident involving a cyclist ,thank god but ive seen plenty of accidents where it was plainly the cyclists fault and in many cases it was the cyclist colliding with a stationery object.

I know its trendy to blame motorists (and pedestrians) for every accident involving a cyclist but as a cyclist myself the people I see behaving the most dangerously on the roads are other cyclists.

07Lapierre

MysticMonk wrote: »

Cycling proficiency tests and penalty points for dangerous cycling.

I've never seen a fatal accident involving a cyclist ,thank god but ive seen plenty of accidents where it was plainly the cyclists fault and in many cases it was the cyclist colliding with a stationery object.

I know its trendy to blame motorists (and pedestrians) for every accident involving a cyclist but as a cyclist myself the people I see behaving the most dangerously on the roads are other cyclists.

There's nothing "Trendy" about it! and I think you'll find most cyclists also hate seeing other cyclists breaking the law!

Also, We already have penalty points for cycling offences...
(Its enforcement of these offences that's needed)


Offences now the subject of €40 fines are:
1. Cyclist driving a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration.
2. No front lamp or rear lamp lit during lighting-up hours on a pedal cycle.
3. Cyclist proceeding into a pedestrianised street or area.
4 . Cyclist proceeding past traffic lights when the red lamp is illuminated.
5. Cyclist proceeding past cycle traffic lights when red lamp is lit.
6. Cyclist failing to stop for a School Warden sign.
7. Cyclist proceeding beyond a stop line, barrier or half barrier at a railway level crossing, swing bridge or lifting bridge, when the red lamps are flashing.

Leroy42

MysticMonk wrote: »

Cycling proficiency tests and penalty points for dangerous cycling.

I've never seen a fatal accident involving a cyclist ,thank god but ive seen plenty of accidents where it was plainly the cyclists fault and in many cases it was the cyclist colliding with a stationery object.

I know its trendy to blame motorists (and pedestrians) for every accident involving a cyclist but as a cyclist myself the people I see behaving the most dangerously on the roads are other cyclists.

Then you really are not paying enough attention.

The most dangerous users on the roads are cyclists? So you don't see speeding, don't see mobile phone use, haven't heard of drunk or drugged driving.

Kaisr Sose

tunney wrote: »

Road tax mandatory for cyclists
Insurance mandatory for cyclists
And a Cycling license

Is there a dislike button?

Tomred13

For whats its worth ive sent a email to minster poxy Ross who has turned into the usual sterotypical parochial irish politician that only cares about his own voters. Hes a laughing stock of a man, he used to be a big mouth piece before he went to the darkside and the oireachteas but now he says nothing except to oppose social housing in his community and trying to open a garda station that isnt needed.

so here my two cents.

The Dept of Transport only care for road tax payers and we dont fall into that group
The RSA are inept and only care for motorist and dont give a feck about us
the Garda are a waste of time and dont enforce the rules of the road.
The cycling infrastructure in this country is unfit for purpose
The average motorist WILL Break red lights and are usually to preoccupied with their phones to notice us.

Annie get your Run

MysticMonk wrote: »

I know its trendy to blame motorists (and pedestrians) for every accident involving a cyclist but as a cyclist myself the people I see behaving the most dangerously on the roads are other cyclists.

Here's a list of the most dangerous things I've seen this week so far:

1. A construction van overtaking on a solid white line into oncoming traffic whilst speeding.
2. A woman in her SUV overtaking me on the left then swinging across my path to turn right (as I was) in order that she could speed to the next lights and put her makeup on.
3. FOUR cars breaking a RED light (not amber) coming into the Castleknock gate of the Phoenix Park yesterday evening.
5. A woman in heavy traffic on the quays on her mobile phone texting and driving.
6. Two taxi drivers who pulled out in front of me on the quays in separate incidents as if I wasn't there despite the big flashing white light on my bike, my evasive maneuvers in once instance sent me into the kerb and in the other over a bad pothole (the other option was into traffic).
7. A woman who overtook me on the road only to pull in 10 seconds later to collect her boyfriend who was waiting on the side of the road, no indication, luckily the car behind me reacted quickly and allowed me out otherwise I was into the back of her.
8. A motorbike driving in the cycle track on the quays at speed while bikes were in front of him.
9. The SUV driver on the Castleknock road yesterday evening that was doing at least 80KPH in a 50 zone who passed too closely and at such speed my bike wobbled.
10. 9/10 cars on the R149 that drive far in excess of the speed limit every single day.

This is just the stuff that stands out, plenty more gets forgotten. In contrast I've seen many cyclists break red lights (it drives me mad) but not one of them put themselves or anyone else in danger while doing it. Is it wrong? Yes, is it dangerous? Probably mostly not.

average_runner

Tomred13 wrote: »

For whats its worth ive sent a email to minster poxy Ross who has turned into the usual sterotypical parochial irish politician that only cares about his own voters. Hes a laughing stock of a man, he used to be a big mouth piece before he went to the darkside and the oireachteas but now he says nothing except to oppose social housing in his community and trying to open a garda station that isnt needed.

so here my two cents.

The Dept of Transport only care for road tax payers and we dont fall into that group
The RSA are inept and only care for motorist and dont give a feck about us
the Garda are a waste of time and dont enforce the rules of the road.
The cycling infrastructure in this country is unfit for purpose
The average motorist WILL Break red lights and are usually to preoccupied with their phones to notice us.

In fairness the average cyclist will break red lights also.
Also you see feck all reports on why a car accident happens.
In Ireland we seem to like to hide why an accident happens, instead of learning from it.

average_runner

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Here's a list of the most dangerous things I've seen this week so far:

1. A construction van overtaking on a solid white line into oncoming traffic whilst speeding.
2. A woman in her SUV overtaking me on the left then swinging across my path to turn right (as I was) in order that she could speed to the next lights and put her makeup on.
3. FOUR cars breaking a RED light (not amber) coming into the Castleknock gate of the Phoenix Park yesterday evening.
5. A woman in heavy traffic on the quays on her mobile phone texting and driving.
6. Two taxi drivers who pulled out in front of me on the quays in separate incidents as if I wasn't there despite the big flashing white light on my bike, my evasive maneuvers in once instance sent me into the kerb and in the other over a bad pothole (the other option was into traffic).
7. A woman who overtook me on the road only to pull in 10 seconds later to collect her boyfriend who was waiting on the side of the road, no indication, luckily the car behind me reacted quickly and allowed me out otherwise I was into the back of her.
8. A motorbike driving in the cycle track on the quays at speed while bikes were in front of him.
9. The SUV driver on the Castleknock road yesterday evening that was doing at least 80KPH in a 50 zone who passed too closely and at such speed my bike wobbled.
10. 9/10 cars on the R149 that drive far in excess of the speed limit every single day.

This is just the stuff that stands out, plenty more gets forgotten. In contrast I've seen many cyclists break red lights (it drives me mad) but not one of them put themselves or anyone else in danger while doing it. Is it wrong? Yes, is it dangerous? Probably mostly not.

So basically you only saw motorists doing bad things and not cyclists. Very one sided, maybe you should walk with me on the quays some morning and you will see both sides are very stupid!

07Lapierre

average_runner wrote: »

So basically you only saw motorists doing bad things and not cyclists. Very one sided, maybe you should walk with me on the quays some morning and you will see both sides are very stupid!

Did you see any Law Enforcement?

Annie get your Run

average_runner wrote: »

So basically you only saw motorists doing bad things and not cyclists. Very one sided, maybe you should walk with me on the quays some morning and you will see both sides are very stupid!

Did you not see the last part of my post? I see plenty of cyclists doing bad things, not necessarily dangerous things though, and I cycle the quays morning and evening, I see plenty. I was responding to someone who said and I quote:

"the people I see behaving the most dangerously on the roads are other cyclists."

In my experience that's simply just not true. My opening sentence says "Here's a list of the most dangerous things I've seen this week so far"