Why have the LUAS works taken 4 years so far?

Dinarius

Both of the two original Green and Red lines, a multiple of kilometers longer than the current cross city connection, were built in a three year period (approx.), from 2001 to 2004.

Despite having carte blanche to open and close streets as they see fit, the current north/south, Green/Red inter-connector has, so far, taken almost 4 years.

Why is this?

Has it gone over budget? If so, who is paying?

Just curious.

Thanks.

D.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Dinarius wrote: »

Both of the two original Green and Red lines, a multiple of kilometers longer than the current cross city connection, were built in a three year period (approx.), from 2001 to 2004.

Despite having carte blanche to open and close streets as they see fit, the current north/south, Green/Red inter-connector has, so far, taken almost 4 years.

Why is this?

Has it gone over budget? If so, who is paying?

Just curious.

Thanks.

D.

Construction was initially scheduled to finish in 2017 so they are on schedule.

Shane Ross has recently claimed that it's on budget.

bk

Vastly more complicated.

The vast majority of the original Luas lines were either fully or partly segregated, which meant whole streets could be fully closed and worked on 24/7.

With LCC most of the route is fully shared and in fact some of the busiest streets Ireland that couldn't be completely closed. Instead they could only close one lane or footpath, work on it and then move over to the next section. All while allowing cars and buses to use the lane right next to them, never mind the massive numbers of pedestrians walking beside.

Add to that that much of the route had old listed buildings next to it, whose foundations needed to be protected, oh and many of which had basements and cellars that went under the road and had to be filled.

Then their was the archeology of an old Viking city. And finally all the power lines, telecoms, water and sewage under these roads that needed to be dealt with.

All extremely complicated.

BTW LCC isn't over schedule, it is right on the planned schedule (end of 2017), maybe even a little ahead of schedule.

Also no cost overruns that I've heard of.

Dinarius

bk wrote: »

Vastly more complicated.

The vast majority of the original Luas lines were either fully or partly segregated, which meant whole streets could be fully closed and worked on 24/7.

With LCC most of the route is fully shared and in fact some of the busiest streets Ireland that couldn't be completely closed. Instead they could only close one lane or footpath, work on it and then move over to the next section. All while allowing cars and buses to use the lane right next to them, never mind the massive numbers of pedestrians walking beside.

Add to that that much of the route had old listed buildings next to it, whose foundations needed to be protected, oh and many of which had basements and cellars that went under the road and had to be filled.

Then their was the archeology of an old Viking city. And finally all the power lines, telecoms, water and sewage under these roads that needed to be dealt with.

All extremely complicated.

BTW LCC isn't over schedule, it is right on the planned schedule (end of 2017), maybe even a little ahead of schedule.

Also no cost overruns that I've heard of.

Thanks!

D.

LeinsterDub

Easter 2016 and Paddy's days also caused periods of time were no construction was possible in fact the opposite happened as they had to clean up mid construction.

XPS_Zero

Imagine if the govt hadn't taken Luas off CIE how long they all would have taken.
I asked someone who worked in Berties govt why they had two state rail companies.
"we didn't trust CIE not to make an unholy balls of it"
"hang on...you didn't trust the states rail operator...to deliver a rail project without screwing it up?"
"no" (with an expression that suggested this was the most obvious thing in the world)
"doesn't that suggest CIE is not fit for purpose and should be wound up and replaced"
"yes, but that would create a union sh1tstorm, and Bertie prefers to bribe unions rather than confront them, even if it means stabbing his own people in the back to do it"

At the time I thought this was kinda ridiculou, that of course CIE could do it they were trusted to do the original DART, DART Upgrade why not this? The years since have taught me that the guy was not only correct but he was not nearly as cynical as I would become about CIE...the DSP...the HSE...basically anything in the Irish public sector where unions exist no longer to protect workers but to protect inefficiency, incompetence and bad work practices.  Funny thing is I stayed pro union, personal experience taught me private sector unions don't have the same "throw yourself on the ground next to mammy in the supermarket and scream BUT I WANT IT!!!" mentality.

goingnowhere

It is quickly forgotten that the Luas was designed by Irish Rail and the initial procurement and related matters was done by CIE.

The original Red/Green lines were badly late and over budget due politics constantly revising the project as well as walking away from the Airport - Shankill metro project

The reality was to get the service run privately (and to derisk the state as a result) it could not be within CIE.

Dublin Bus did apply to run the Luas but lost out (bear in mind Dublin Bus was originally the Dublin United Tramway Company...)

lawred2

I see a shed load of work yet to be done... Is it really on schedule for 2017?

brokenarms

lawred2 wrote: »

I see a shed load of work yet to be done... Is it really on schedule for 2017?

It looks like there is loads of work to be done , but the massive bulk has been completed.
All the underground cabling and pipe work has been dealt with. Which takes to the most time. On top they had to deal with old structures and foundations. For example On collage green there was an old underground 19th century public toilets that need to be dug out and filled .
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-toilet-site-demolished-luas-works-2747693-May2016/


Whats left seems to be cosmetic in the city center which can be done very quickly if needed. On the other hand, I seen the site at Broudstone bus station yesterday, it still looks like a massive hole in the ground.

bk

Given that they are already testing the trams on the track (which also means power works and overhead wiring is complete), it is already well over the hardest work and is now on the finishing straight.

Most of the work left to do is mostly cosmetic, fixing paving, ticket machines, etc. and relatively quick to complete.

Keyzer

The original lines were vastly less complicated than running two lines from one side of the city to the other. Add to that the huge amount of preparation works that were required before any lines were put down.

Bear in mind, construction was virtually unimpeded when construction of the green line got to the top of Harcourt street, the old harcourt street line was used.

lawred2

bk wrote: »

Given that they are already testing the trams on the track (which also means power works and overhead wiring is complete), it is already well over the hardest work and is now on the finishing straight.

Most of the work left to do is mostly cosmetic, fixing paving, ticket machines, etc. and relatively quick to complete.

where are they testing?

Geuze

A test tram ran on Sat.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0617/883483-luas-tests/

hmmm

Moving all the services took ages. There's a lot of businesses relying on things like Telecoms, water, power etc along the route, and none of them would be happy if someone dug through a pipe. All required very careful and painstaking work.

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

where are they testing?

Was on O'Connell St, College Green, etc. on Saturday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/luas-cross-city-testing-today-to-cause-traffic-disruption-1.3123905

Got some pics passing myself, looked great on O'Connell St.

lawred2

bk wrote: »

Was on O'Connell St, College Green, etc. on Saturday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/luas-cross-city-testing-today-to-cause-traffic-disruption-1.3123905

Got some pics passing myself, looked great on O'Connell St.

brilliant... great to see Trams back on O Connell Street.

bk

Great video of it being tested here on College Green:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-luas-crosscity-line-tested-for-the-first-time-today-35836496.html

lawred2

Where it says 'the trams will travel at walking speed' - I presume that they mean for the trial

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

Where it says 'the trams will travel at walking speed' - I presume that they mean for the trial

Of course! It is a trial to test the track gauge, fit, overhead cables, etc.

Seemingly driver route training begins in September, shows how far along it is.

end of the road

lawred2 wrote: »

Where it says 'the trams will travel at walking speed' - I presume that they mean for the trial

as part of the trial, slowly speeding up until eventually they will test at full line speed.

Keyzer

lawred2 wrote: »

Where it says 'the trams will travel at walking speed' - I presume that they mean for the trial

Seriously?

They need to carry out significant testing in order to certify the extension is fit for purposes. One such test, which you can see from the clips, is cornering to see if there is adequate space for two trams to navigate the same corner at the same time.

LeinsterDub

Speaking at today’s launch, he said: “Luas Cross City has been a priority project for the Government and is on target to be completed and fully operational by the end of this year

The current project shouldn't be a priority project for the government unless they are planning to do some of the digging themselves . The current project should be monitored by the government while planning a new priority project.


It's like me putting the spuds in the oven and sitting there watching them cook and then when they are done saying best get started on the chicken now.

L1011

Dinarius wrote: »

Both of the two original Green and Red lines, a multiple of kilometers longer than the current cross city connection, were built in a three year period (approx.), from 2001 to 2004.

Despite having carte blanche to open and close streets as they see fit, the current north/south, Green/Red inter-connector has, so far, taken almost 4 years.

Why is this?

Has it gone over budget? If so, who is paying?

Just curious.

Thanks.

D.

The timescale you're quoting for this line includes preparatory works. The timescale you're quoting for the original build does not.

That makes up a significant difference.


Nearly all contracts are fixed-price since the DPT overruns.

loyatemu

end of the road wrote: »

as part of the trial, slowly speeding up until eventually they will test at full line speed.

aka "jogging speed"

Spanish Eyes

I think this project is hammering along. When I think how long some others took to come to fruition, I was a bit sceptical of a December 2017 finish TBH..

But I am delighted to see the progress that has been made. You can't make an omellette without breaking an egg and all that so the disruption was and is worth it.

Will be great to get our city back better than ever when it's done. Looking forward to wider pavements on OCB, and in Westmoreland Street and all the other improvements promised. That will be great.

bk

I think one point that people missed about Luas Cross City, is that DCC are using it as an excuse to also do major improvements to footpaths, street regeneration, major realignment of traffic lanes, road access, cycleways, etc.

All of these changes will be very positive IMO. But they wouldn't have happened without the excuse of LCC. The Luas really helps shape the street and traffic scape around it.

bobbyss

Frantic work on O 'Connell Street today. I asked one of the men when it would be finished and he said something about 9th July and November. Couldn't hear with all the noise. But it looked as they are putting final touches to a lot of stuff and very noisy.

SPDUB

hmmm wrote: »

Moving all the services took ages. There's a lot of businesses relying on things like Telecoms, water, power etc along the route, and none of them would be happy if someone dug through a pipe. All required very careful and painstaking work.

They weren't as careful in the construction of the Red Line in the Rialto area in 2003,2004 .

There were at least 3 major outages of NTL ( or whatever it was called at the time ) because they managed to damage the cables .

As far as I recall most took place in the late afternoon/early evening when presumably people let their attention drift .

dazberry

SPDUB wrote: »

There were at least 3 major outages of NTL ( or whatever it was called at the time ) because they managed to damage the cables .

I worked in Abbey St in 2001 when they were doing the ground works - it was hell. Beyond the noise and vibrations - we also had a week without water where they'd managed to not reconnect us after some bit of work - all the while insisting that we had been reconnected.

D.

Victor

I took this picture in February 2014. It was the laying of the track on the Rosie Hackett Bridge. Luas works didn't start until well after the bridge opened, so it hasn't been 4 years.

bk wrote: »

I think one point that people missed about Luas Cross City, is that DCC are using it as an excuse to also do major improvements to footpaths, street regeneration, major realignment of traffic lanes, road access, cycleways, etc.

Because they won't have the opportunity to do so afterwards.

Chivito550

Keyzer wrote: »

Seriously?

They need to carry out significant testing in order to certify the extension is fit for purposes. One such test, which you can see from the clips, is cornering to see if there is adequate space for two trams to navigate the same corner at the same time.

Just out of interest, what happens if there isn't adequate space? Dig it up and start again?

TheQuietFella

bk wrote: »

Vastly more complicated.

The vast majority of the original Luas lines were either fully or partly segregated, which meant whole streets could be fully closed and worked on 24/7.

Also no cost overruns that I've heard of.

Because they haven't been publicised!

GhostyMcGhost

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, what happens if there isn't adequate space? Dig it up and start again?

Or a signal so that only one tram can turn at any one time

Chivito550

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Or a signal so that only one tram can turn at any one time

That would be a bit of a disaster tbh. Would rather they dug it up and fixed it in such a scenario than do that.

LeinsterDub

Victor wrote: »

I took this picture in February 2014. It was the laying of the track on the Rosie Hackett Bridge. Luas works didn't start until well after the bridge opened, so it hasn't been 4 years.

Cellar infills started June 2013
https://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/

Pelvis

Where exactly does the new line go exactly? Connolly? I take it you have to get off the green line at some point to get on the red line?

Also any idea how many more trams will be operating to cater for the increased passenger numbers?

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, what happens if there isn't adequate space? Dig it up and start again?

If there was an issue then yes there would have to be re-alignment works to correct it.

That's why the gauge test happens so far in advance of full operations - it allows a window for any rectification works that would be needed to facilitate full unrestricted operations.

LXFlyer

Pelvis wrote: »

Where exactly does the new line go exactly? Connolly? I take it you have to get off the green line at some point to get on the red line?

It's an extension of the Green Line from St Stephen's Green to Broombridge.

Look up www.luascrosscity.ie

Pelvis

lxflyer wrote: »

It's an extension of the Green Line from St Stephen's Green to Broombridge.

Look up www.luascrosscity.ie

Holy ****, I literally thought it was just connecting the red and green line, had no idea it was heading so far north. That's awesome.

How does the LCC crossing the Red line on Abbey St work with the tracks perpendicular to each other?

TheQuietFella

Deedsie wrote: »

Can you inform us on the cost overruns? Do you have information the rest of us don't?

Of course I don't but they will leak out over time...as they usually do.
Maybe after an election or when they've finished the works!

seamie78

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Imagine if the govt hadn't taken Luas off CIE how long they all would have taken.
I asked someone who worked in Berties govt why they had two state rail companies.
"we didn't trust CIE not to make an unholy balls of it"
"hang on...you didn't trust the states rail operator...to deliver a rail project without screwing it up?"
"no" (with an expression that suggested this was the most obvious thing in the world)
"doesn't that suggest CIE is not fit for purpose and should be wound up and replaced"
"yes, but that would create a union sh1tstorm, and Bertie prefers to bribe unions rather than confront them, even if it means stabbing his own people in the back to do it"

At the time I thought this was kinda ridiculou, that of course CIE could do it they were trusted to do the original DART, DART Upgrade why not this? The years since have taught me that the guy was not only correct but he was not nearly as cynical as I would become about CIE...the DSP...the HSE...basically anything in the Irish public sector where unions exist no longer to protect workers but to protect inefficiency, incompetence and bad work practices. Funny thing is I stayed pro union, personal experience taught me private sector unions don't have the same "throw yourself on the ground next to mammy in the supermarket and scream BUT I WANT IT!!!" mentality.

good point as the LUAS is in the private sector you would never see their staff strike for what they want

LXFlyer

Pelvis wrote: »

Holy ****, I literally thought it was just connecting the red and green line, had no idea it was heading so far north. That's awesome.

How does the LCC crossing the Red line on Abbey St work with the tracks perpendicular to each other?

They just cross one another - that's all.

Dinarius

Chivito550 wrote: »

That would be a bit of a disaster tbh. Would rather they dug it up and fixed it in such a scenario than do that.

I would have thought that one tram being able to pass by another was an engineering/mathematical calculation that those laying track have been doing for the best part of 200 years.

D.

Victor

Dinarius wrote: »

I would have thought that one tram being able to pass by another was an engineering/mathematical calculation that those laying track have been doing for the best part of 200 years.

D.

Yes, but mistakes happen, there are a lot of things to consider - type of tram, speed, curvature, camber, asymmetric loading of tram. Best that the problems are found now, not when services commence. Trams tend to have tighter curves and less space available to them than trains.

magicbastarder

Dinarius wrote: »

I would have thought that one tram being able to pass by another was an engineering/mathematical calculation that those laying track have been doing for the best part of 200 years.

D.

so they shouldn't test it?

Dinarius

magicbastarder wrote: »

so they shouldn't test it?

Of course they should test it.

My reply was referencing those wondering what would be done if it failed the test.

I would be stunned if it did.

D.

Stephen15

goingnowhere wrote: »

Dublin Bus did apply to run the Luas but lost out (bear in mind Dublin Bus was originally the Dublin United Tramway Company...)

I know this opinion would be unpopular but DB probably should have won that tender IMO. If DB had of won it then we would have a proper intergrated public transport system here in Dublin. Leap would've been easier to implement as you'd only be relying on IE to co-operate there were already cross DB/IE tickets at that time and there probably wouldn't not have been a need to set up the NTA as long as there was good DB IE relations. I assume DB would've had to be renamed to Dublin Transport maybe.

DB actually had many good ideas around that time like a flat fare which was blocked for some silly reason by the DoT. I know DB are far from perfect but a lot of their inefficiencies are down to NTA, DoT or union policy. They seem to be the better run of three CIE companies.

Anyone what other companies bidded for the tender?

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

I know this opinion would be unpopular but DB probably should have won that tender IMO. If DB had of won it then we would have a proper intergrated public transport system here in Dublin. Leap would've been easier to implement as you'd only be relying on IE to co-operate there were already cross DB/IE tickets at that time and there probably wouldn't not have been a need to set up the NTA as long as there was good DB IE relations. I assume DB would've had to be renamed to Dublin Transport maybe.

DB actually had many good ideas around that time like a flat fare which was blocked for some silly reason by the DoT. I know DB are far from perfect but a lot of their inefficiencies are down to NTA, DoT or union policy. They seem to be the better run of three CIE companies.

Anyone what other companies bidded for the tender?

DB, BÉ and IÉ are all owned by the same company and never integrated tickets or routes. They are now being forced to do so by the NTA.

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

DB, BÉ and IÉ are all owned by the same company and never integrated tickets or routes. They are now being forced to do so by the NTA.

There were intergrated DB/IE and DB/Luas tickets before Leap. Just not tickets that were valid on all three

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

There were intergrated DB/IE and DB/Luas tickets before Leap. Just not tickets that were valid on all three

How much is the annual Dublin area CIÉ travel pass?

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

DB, Band Iare all owned by the same company and never integrated tickets or routes. They are now being forced to do so by the NTA.

Stephen15 wrote: »

There were intergrated DB/IE and DB/Luas tickets before Leap. Just not tickets that were valid on all three

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How much is the annual Dublin area CItravel pass?

There certainly were integrated prepaid tickets available prior to LEAP, including a monthly and annual Short Hop Bus, Rail and LUAS ticket.

The current version costs EUR218 and EUR2,180 for the monthly and annual respectively.

What there wasn't was the ability to use a smartcard with an epurse across all three modes to pay as you go.

Incidentally, there were also the Medium Hop, Long Hop and Giant Hop tickets that covered travel on Bus Eireann, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus in extended travel zones as far north as Dundalk and as far south as Gorey.

LEAP however has facilitated a single card on which tickets can be bought across the public operators and some private ones too - that alone is a major step forward.

With that in mind, it's a shame to see that JJ Kavanagh (in their infinite wisdom) decided to develop their own separate smartcard rather than joining LEAP.