A question to those of faith

NIMAN

I would not be a person of faith, and would describe myself as agnostic.

A simple question always pops into my head, and I'd like to throw it out there to all those who have a belief in a higher power or God.

"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.

We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.

Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?

Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?

NIMAN

FanadMan

NIMAN wrote: »

Mega repeat troll - they've spent two nights doing this.

Peregrinus

The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.

Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.

A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.

J C

Peregrinus wrote: »

The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.

Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.

A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.

All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.

Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??

J C

NIMAN wrote: »

"If he (God) does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.

We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.

Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?

Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?

God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will.
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.

When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.

Peregrinus

J C wrote: »

All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ...

Oh, sure, yes, but the point is that he didn't look like what we might expect God Made Man to look like - no crowns of fire, lightning bolts, choirs of angels, etc. He looked like the not-very-prosperous son of a not-very-famous carpenter from a not-very-big place.

The point is that in asking for God to "show himself", the OP is asking for God to conform to his expectations of what God showing himself will look like. Which means that, when God does show himself, the OP doesn't notice.

(The OP is not alone. The gospels suggest that practically nobody noticed.)

NIMAN

J C wrote: »

All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.

Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??

If he did appear 2000 years ago, it was in a less technical time, with only word of mouth and peoples imaginations as the means to record history.

We have much better technology now, if he was to appear now then surely it would have more impact?

Also, I don't see how his appearance would strip us of our own free will. We would still have that. He doesn't have to intervene, simple appear to show us he exists.

Peregrinus

NIMAN wrote: »

If he did appear 2000 years ago, it was in a less technical time, with only word of mouth and peoples imaginations as the means to record history.

We have much better technology now, if he was to appear now then surely it would have more impact?

Well, it's had quite a lot of impact already, if you look at the last two thousand years of history!

More to the point, though, the Christian view is that God is still present in the world, in an incarnate way. The Ascension didn't bring the Incarnation to an end; just marked a change in the way in which it was made manifest.

You obviously don't accept this (which is fair enough). But your questions imply an assumption on your part that if God were to appear in the world, that would be instantly recognisable to you (and everyone else). Obviously, that hasn't happened. Which leaves open two possibilities; (a)God hasn't appeared in the world, or (b) your assumptions about what that would look like are wrong. As a good sceptic, the first thing you should be doing is scrutinising your own assumptions here. So I would turn your question around; how do you know that God hasn't appeared in the world?

antiskeptic

NIMAN wrote: »

Also, I don't see how his appearance would strip us of our own free will. We would still have that. He doesn't have to intervene, simple appear to show us he exists.

To suppose this, you would have to ignore the account of what occurred when God did turn up. Let's say he turns up in anything like his holiness and might (which wasn't how Jesus turned up).

We have accounts of what occurred: people fell flat on their faces, overpowered by the sheer purity and might of him. Bear in mind, that if God exists then you (and me) are sinners. At present the extent of that (sin) in yourself (and myself) is largely hidden from us by our ability to deny and excuse and suppress it. Yes, we have a conscience but that is, relatively speaking, a blunt, dulled instrument.

Were God to turn up then we would immediately see ourselves for what we are (for we would have him and his purity to measure ourselves against) We would realise just how wanting we are: impure, decadent, selfish, cruel, petty, thieving (along with the good things about us) Thus, we would fall flat on our faces. There's no freewill to be found there?

Or God could turn up as Jesus turned up. Deniable, discountable and ultimately, removable. But there isn't any point in God turning up so again: the mission for which he did turn up so was accomplished. There is no need to repeat it.

-

God doesn't need to "turn up" in order to demonstrate his existence to a person. He's got access to all areas and doesn't need to confine himself to that which is scientifically demonstrable in order to prove his existence beyond a persons doubt.

Terrlock

Isn't it also the case that part of being christian is actually building your own personal relationship with God.

I guess those who don't or can't even perceive this would find it hard to comprehend, but I find that God works at the moment mostly on an individual basis through the holy spirit.

We don't fully understand the nature of God or even the nature of creation itself, we only comprehend from our own narrow viewpoint.

Once we repent and turn to God can we begin to start understanding and learning through the holy spirit what he has in store for us.

We also know through scripture that Jesus will indeed return and the whole world will see him when he does.

hinault

NIMAN wrote: »

I would not be a person of faith, and would describe myself as agnostic.

A simple question always pops into my head, and I'd like to throw it out there to all those who have a belief in a higher power or God.

"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.

We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.

Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?

Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?

If you read the Bible, Genesis tells of God revelation to Adam and Eve. God made Himself known to them.

Because of the Fall (Adam and Eve defying God), humanity's relationship to God became more distant. What God had created had deliberately defied him.

We don't know what the nature of this defiance was. But it is reasonable to conclude that this defiance was sufficient enough to separate us from God.

The question has been asked, why is God apparently asleep/dead? And on one level it may seem a reasonable question.

However if we read Scripture, Jesus tells us that God is with us collectively and individually. And that it is up to each of us to accept that relationship or reject it. It is the exercise of free will, on our part.

lazybones32

Us catholics already have the physical presence of Christin the eucharist but, personally, I think a visual sign of God's presence would nearly be infuriating. Direct questions were put to Christ over 100 times in the gospels and he gave an answer less than 20% of the time. Knowing God is there and hears your prayers and pleas doesn't increase the likelihood of getting an answer or getting an answer you like. Even if there were proof, people would find fault with some other thing he does or doesn't do. Even the jews who say miraculous signs, turned away soon after...


If it's a personal thing op and you just need to know, I can't guide you cos i accidentally found it - i never was looking for it - but maybe ask for some sign. It prob won't be a mathematical solution or a formula; it'll be something personal and tailor-suited to you. Maybe live next week with the notion "maybe God exists?" and see what happens? I guarantee nothing and I'm not trying to trick you but that's what my brain is thinking on this grey sunday afternoon.

Peregrinus

lazybones32 wrote: »

Us catholics already have the physical presence of Christin the eucharist . . .

Nitpick: "real" or "substantial", not "physical". Physically, it's bread and wine.

Sorry. It's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.

And of course belief in the real presence is not confined to us Catholics.

frag420

Peregrinus wrote: »

The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.

Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.

A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.

Is this novel based on fact of is it fiction? Also when someone writes a book they tend to go on promotional tours, chat shows etc...why wont God not do a State of the World address maybe once a year to tell his or her flock all will be OK in the world? He/She is meant to be the saviour and father/mother to mankind, surely making his/her flock feel safe should be top of his/her priority list.

J C wrote: »

All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.

Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??

Odd how he/she was willing to give proof thousands of years ago but now in modern times he/she is nowhere to be seen part from in his/her creations? What is he/she hiding from? Why does he/she not come and perform a few miracles now, rid the world of hunger for a start, stop wars would be another. Imagine the following they would have after pulling that off!?

You use this word evidence...can you share some evidence of gods existence! Evidence that would stand up in court perhaps and not just the words of a guy who lived 2000 years ago.

J C wrote: »

God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will.
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.

When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.

So God made a mistake introducing free will then? What other mistakes has (s)he made?

Terrlock wrote: »

Isn't it also the case that part of being christian is actually building your own personal relationship with God.

I guess those who don't or can't even perceive this would find it hard to comprehend, but I find that God works at the moment mostly on an individual basis through the holy spirit.

We don't fully understand the nature of God or even the nature of creation itself, we only comprehend from our own narrow viewpoint.

Once we repent and turn to God can we begin to start understanding and learning through the holy spirit what he has in store for us.

We also know through scripture that Jesus will indeed return and the whole world will see him when he does.

We understand nature more through science than we do a 2000 year old book!!

I shall assume that you have repented and turned to God...what from your learnings has he/she got in store for us...with proof please! Is it another miracle where he/she opens up the sea and lets all the poor people in North Africa free passage to Europe? Maybe he/she will tell us that we are not alone in the universe!?

Peregrinus

frag420 wrote: »

Is this novel based on fact of is it fiction? Also when someone writes a book they tend to go on promotional tours, chat shows etc...

I don't think you've quite grasped the analogy. If the author of a book goes on a publicity tour, the characters in the book don't observe that.

frag420 wrote: »

. . .why wont God not do a State of the World address maybe once a year to tell his or her flock all will be OK in the world? He/She is meant to be the saviour and father/mother to mankind, surely making his/her flock feel safe should be top of his/her priority list.

Again, you're just coming up with a simplistic notion of God in your mind, and asking why God doesn't conform to your notion. You fail to ask the obvious question; why should he? "Feeling safe" may be top of your priority list, but perhaps God has different priorities. For example, it could be more important to him that you should feel free.

I love Sean nos

NIMAN wrote: »

"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

Answer 1: Doesn't exist.
Answer 2: Drama queen. :pac:

I love Sean nos

Peregrinus wrote: »

Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation?

Has anything been created recently?

Leroy42

J C wrote: »

All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.

Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??

Have you ever tried to simply not want to believe in something? Try telling a child that the shadows are not monsters in the room.

Its not the amount of evidence, it is the quality. Apart from the resurrection, God has provided no evidence that cannot be attributed to natural happenings. So even in that there is very little evidence. But God created us, has unlimited time and it appears that are only purpose on earth is to find a relationship with God. Why would God get fed up with helping us in the regard? So you are down to one piece of evidence, which even people at the time didn't universally accept. It was his followers and a few others. It wasn't until the Romans decreed Christianity as the one religion that it made any serious impact.

J C wrote: »

God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will.
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.

The free will argument does not hold water.

Satan had direct relationship with God and choose to ignore his views. So whilst he may be wrong, he, even knowing God still had free will.
Adam and Eve also had direct relationship with God, but again had free will. So knowing of God's existence does not appear to remove the ability to exercise free will.


The other problem with the free will argument is that, logically, if after death we get to share in the presence of God, then that must mean that free will is removed. So why give us free will for 80 years but remove it for the rest of eternity? What purpose does having free will serve?

And free will does not mean that you leave people ignorant. Real free will comes from telling people the facts and letting them make their own decisions. So why would God leave so much to ignorance. Why would God leave the whole Climate Change open to interpretation for eg? It is not free will that Trump is exercising, it is ignorance of this area. What purpose would that serve?

The OP asked why God does not reveal himself. Religions people would say that God has done plenty of times and based on the Bible, culminating in Jesus arriving on Earth and sacrificing himself to free us of our sins.

So which is it? Does God reveal himself or not? Was it a limited time offer and now it back to the wonders of his creation rather than more immediate signs. Why would God reveal himself multiple times in the Middle East, an area that already believed and were waiting for a messiah, and not reveal himself again.

It is clear that the population of the world continues to grow since 20oo years, and the atheism is increasing even in traditional religions areas, so why has God not seen fit to return to deal with the doubters.

It is simply not believable that God sees little point in returning as people still wouldn't believe. He is the creator, he knows what would work, why not do that.

One must assume that God has the power, so the only conclusions are that he either doesn't want to or doesn't feel it worth it at the present time. Either one would suggest that he cares less about us now than he did previously. Has God given up on us?

J C wrote: »

When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.

Why? Jesus raised people from the dead but evil cannot be defeated?

You then go on to say that that it will be removed at the end of the universe, so why wait? God is willing to let untold billions suffer simply because to save them doesn't fit with his universe timeline?

Why does God not reveal himself? I don't know. If I had the ability to take away someones suffering, someones fear of death, then I would do it. I try to reduce the pain from my kids as much as possible by soothing them etc.

Why would an all loving God allow people to suffer terrible pain and disease when it is in his power to grant them the knowledge to free them of that. To remove the fear of death.

homer911

Have you ever read the parable of the Sower?

Leroy42

homer911 wrote: »

Have you ever read the parable of the Sower?

You mean in Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:1-15?

Yes I have. And Deuteronomy 32:4 states that 'His work is perfect'.

So taking the parable, and Deuteronomy, one must infer that God means that some of his seeds will not land on the soil. It must therefore be Gods plan that only some people will ever truly understand.

Again I go back to my previous question. It was clear, taking the teachings of the bible, that God took a very direct hand in the affairs of man in the OT and then send Jesus down in the NT. Since then he has stayed removed from us and despite many pleas refuses to reveal himself. So God is very much capable of direct revelation.

Do you think God no longer cares enough about people nowadays to get involved? What other reason is there for his apparent lack of interest since Jesus?

lazybones32

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nitpick: "real" or "substantial", not "physical". Physically, it's bread and wine.

Sorry. It's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.

And of course belief in the real presence is not confined to us Catholics.

Do you name your hobbyhorse 'zwingli'? The RCC differ somewhat with your explanation: the bread and wine don't lose their properties but become the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of the risen Christ. A substantial change does occur.

johnnyskeleton

Peregrinus wrote: »

Again, you're just coming up with a simplistic notion of God in your mind, and asking why God doesn't conform to your notion. You fail to ask the obvious question; why should he? "Feeling safe" may be top of your priority list, but perhaps God has different priorities. For example, it could be more important to him that you should feel free.

Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?

You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?

hinault

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?

You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?

If you are Christian, you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate.

The New Testament describes how Jesus, before His ascension to Heaven, promised that God would be with us in the form of the Holy Ghost.

Gospel of St John Chapter 14

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever,

17 The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.

20 In that day, you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them: he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot, Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?

23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him:

24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine: but the Father's who sent me.

25 These things have I spoken to you, remaining with you.

26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world giveth, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.

28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come again to you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.

30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, *and as the Father hath given me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Acts of the Apostles Chapter 1

6 They, therefore, who were come together, asked him, saying; Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel:

7 But he said to them; It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:

8 *But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, **and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Peregrinus

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Has anything been created recently?

In the Christian view, you yourself and everything around you are "creation". You yourself would be a relatively recent creation, I suppose, but I'm not sure why "recent" would enter into this at all.

Leroy42

So according to Hinault, it is the Holy Spirit that is with us, not God.

It doesn't in any way answer the question that he was responding to

Originally Posted by johnnyskeleton View Post
Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?

You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?

Why hasn't god returned 2000 years since the last time when such terrible things have happened. We have witnessed terrible wars, disease, droughts, famine, plagues, torture and cruelty, apartheid, genocide and now are faced with the potential destruction of the planet as we have known it. And nothing, cept for some people claiming they hear the holy spirit in their prayers and a few, questionable, miracles.

The almighty God left to mess about with moving statues and Jesus likeness in toast!

Why? One can only infer that indeed it is the Jews that are his chosen people as it is only that he seems to care for, or at least did up to 2000 years ago. Why has God stopped interacting with us? Does he not love us as much as he used to, or are we no longer in need of his direct guidance?

hinault

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the Christian view, you yourself and everything around you are "creation". You yourself would be a relatively recent creation, I suppose, but I'm not sure why "recent" would enter into this at all.

It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.

Boards.ie.:D

Leroy42

hinault wrote: »

It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.

Boards.ie.:D

I would have thought that even those that believe would be interested in God revealing himself.

Imagine the world changing dynamic that would bring about? God could, in a single event, unite the peoples of the world as one. He could end all violence and war. He could could peace and harmony and allow man to concentrate on the real issues that face us. Disease, famine etc instead of wasting time arguing, and in many cases, fighting, over not only does God exist, but whose God is the real one and what that God actually wants.

Why are believers in God so willing to allow such suffering, suffering that God could easily remove.

Are the Christians today less believing in God than those of the ME 2000+ years ago? Why did God continue to visit and help them but has seemingly decided to ignore us?

Why were the lepers and postitutes etc of Palestine 2000 years ago worthy of miracles but a dying baby today is left to suffer. It is not that I expect anybody to know what God's plan is, but have you even questioned it? Have you questioned why God has seemingly forsaken the children raped by the priests in his own church? Why the young girls with babies were treated so cruelly in workhouses on the basis of what God wants.

Why did the Holy Spirit not visit these priests/nuns to show them the error of their ways? He was prepared to get involved to get the Israelites out of Egypt but apparently felt nothing got the slaves brought from Africa to US.

Why?

I love Sean nos

hinault wrote: »

It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.

Boards.ie.:D

Well done for misunderstanding (deliberately perhaps) the entire thread. :rolleyes:

hinault

hinault wrote:

It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.

Boards.ie.:D

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Well done for misunderstanding (deliberately perhaps) the entire thread. :rolleyes:

All Christians accept that God is with us, individually and collectively, throughout this life.
Each of the Christian posters on this thread have alluded to this.

One tenet of Christianity is not to test God. The Gospels teach this tenet.

Demanding that God reveals Himself would directly contradict that tenet.

.......

This post has been deleted.

I love Sean nos

hinault wrote: »

One tenet of Christianity is not to test God. The Gospels teach this tenet.

Demanding that God reveals Himself would directly contradict that tenet.

The rules of Christianity are certainly convenient. If anyone else tried something similar with you in any other aspect of your life, you'd call them out for trying a con.

But this thread isn't really about Christianity. Christianity is just a structure that has been built around God. This thread is questioning the practical advantages of God maybe not being so hands-off. We've had thousands of years of war, escalating in death tolls, hopefully peaking in WWII. Organised genocide. Constant famines and suffering. At what point does God's indifference become a problem? As was mentioned earlier in the thread, is it really asking too much for a sign, a Godly "Have a word with yourself mankind".

The other question that pops into my mind is regarding all of the events of the past century or so is what was so bad that it caused the flood?

hinault

I love Sean nos wrote: »

The rules of Christianity are certainly convenient.

Take that up with the Gospel writers and the writers of the Old Testament.

I love Sean nos wrote: »

But this thread isn't really about Christianity

OP is in the Christianity section of this site.

Moderator asleep on the job again, (non)shocker.

I love Sean nos

hinault wrote: »

Take that up with the Gospel writers and the writers of the Old Testament.

They were men, correct?

johnnyskeleton

hinault wrote: »

It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.

Boards.ie.:D

It's more that we are drawing inferences from his silence

Leroy42

But the rules of Christianity are man made, God is not limited by them only we are.

So even if you accept that those rules are divine, what is to stop God amending them? God has intervened plenty of times. Moses to separate the waters, Noah given the heads up on the flood, Mary & Joseph given the heads up on Herods plan to kill babies. So not intervening is not the problem.

So then it can only be that he doesn't want to. Fine, but as said above, what was so terrible in Noahs time that required the complete destruction of all living things but today (which IMO has seen far worse than I can imagine was happening back then) not a word.

And if, as has been claimed, that God is making himself known to millions through prayer etc, why is it having such a poor effect on the world. Surely one can question the effectiveness of the plan? God seems impotent to stop the bloodshed, the terror, disease, famine etc etc yet people accept him, without question, as the all powerful creator of the universe?

It is a contraction that I cannot square. Why would God play such a direct part in BC Middle East but play no role at all in the Americas, China, Europe etc. And why does he not continue to play a more active role roday?

johnnyskeleton

hinault wrote: »

One tenet of Christianity is not to test God. The Gospels teach this tenet.

Demanding that God reveals Himself would directly contradict that tenet.

So the Apostolic Creed contradicts the Gospels?

It says that we believe that Jesus will come again. So praying for God to reveal himself again is against the gospels?

hinault

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So the Apostolic Creed contradicts the Gospels?

It says that we believe that Jesus will come again. So praying for God to reveal himself again is against the gospels?

Christians do believe that Jesus Christ will return again.

Christians don't go around trying to set the time or date for His return.

And earlier I already referred you to Act Chapter 1 verse 7:)
Perhaps you too do not believe the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament as well?

Leroy42

Acts 1:7New International Version (NIV)

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

But it does not say that you can't ask? And we can't ask why God seemingly has placed more value on the Israelites in slavery in Egypt of the African Slaves in the US? Of the genocide in Rwanda?

Surely Christians must question why the Jews appear to be closer to God affections than they are? God delivered Jews from Slavery, gave them his only Son, gave them a promised land.

EirWatchr

Leroy42 - You ask the same thing over and over. What you are stuck in is called the logical problem of evil - there’s lots of resources out there about it.

You can question all you like. You can spend your time questioning why God isn’t acting as you think best, or you can spend your time instead divining what God reveals about himself (and continues to), especially through the Gospel and prayer. If you insist on seeing that the only revelation available about God is as "man made" (i.e. limited by human understanding alone) you will remain unable to "square it", instead of raising your consciousness to God. God will always remain, to varying degrees, uncomprehendable - but not unapproachable. Jesus was and is approachable, and only because God approached us.

The Jesus of the Gospel clearly didn’t act like you would have wished or expected either (and clearly didn’t for many in his time) - he didn’t evict the evil Roman regime occupying the Jewish promised land, who crucified criminals and political opponents - instead, he gave himself over to their power and shared in the sufferings of their victims. There is no cheap answer, but there is a way. Ask Him why he did it that way; then read how he replies in the Gospels. Ask Him how he can reveal it in the sufferings of your life and times.

In a suffering world, we can recognise goodness by contrast, and we are given opportunities to practice goodness and exceed our human nature and grow closer to God and share his nature with him - not just on this sphere, but forever.

The state you describe, where no bad events happen, but (presumably) you still have free will to act as you like, is called heaven. Again, you might want to question Jesus for what he said about how that can be attained.

Leroy42

I keep asking the question because I never get an answer. Why has God not revealed himself? Ans - Why should he.

Seriously?

And I'm not questioning why god doesn't act the way I would like. I was asking why God modus operandi has changed. Why was he so intent on intervention for the Jews in Egypt but seemingly unmoved by the slaughter of Christians in the ME today?

Obviously I don't think I have had god reveal himself to me, and maybe it is because I am focused on 'man-made' revelations. So what should I be looking for. How has God made himself known to you?

The only account, that I am aware of, that is taken seriously as someone who claimed to have direct revelation of God was Jesus. Billions of people has passed through this life and save for a handful (I assume their are others that I am not aware of) very few, and none of them have been able to relate what that entailed.

There are plenty of people who never hear of God or Jesus, yet suffer great evil. To what end? A small child abused and killed would only experience evil yet would never have a chance to contrast this with Gods word. To what end?

On heaven, I'm sorry but how can you have free will in heaven? Seemingly, to know God is to remove free will. The two cannot co-exist.

And how can heaven be considered good, as there cannot be evil and thus nothing to contrast it with.

I am merely asking have you asked yourself these questions and how have you dealt with the seeming inconsistencies. There doesn't seem to be any reason as to why God wouldn't reveal himself, so it is natural to then question why he hasn't. Yes you can talk about the wonders of the world, childbirth, happiness, clouds etc but that still leaves is with the problem of the change is his approach.

EirWatchr

Leroy42 wrote: »

I keep asking the question because I never get an answer. Why has God not revealed himself? Ans - Why should he.

You do get an answer. I have answered (and I have answered these same questions from you before).

It is simple; it is not easy.

God has revealed himself, in Jesus Christ. He left the Christian Church as the body of Christ acting in the world today.

You either don't understand the answers, or just don't like them (and so discount them).

Pick yourself up a copy of "Who designed the designer?" and read chapter 9 for some insights into why the problem of evil can't have the answer you hope it does. Don't have time to replicate it all here.

EirWatchr

Leroy42 wrote: »

On heaven, I'm sorry but how can you have free will in heaven? Seemingly, to know God is to remove free will. The two cannot co-exist.

They can. To know God is to choose to do God's will, which is always love. In the presence of pure love, who would choose evil?

Leroy42 wrote: »

And how can heaven be considered good, as there cannot be evil and thus nothing to contrast it with.

Unless by contrast with the evil/suffering we've had to experience in this life?

Leroy42

EirWatchr wrote: »

You do get an answer. I have answered (and I have answered these same questions from you before).

It is simple; it is not easy.

God has revealed himself, in Jesus Christ. He left the Christian Church as the body of Christ acting in the world today.

You either don't understand the answers, or just don't like them (and so discount them).

Pick yourself up a copy of "Who designed the designer?" and read chapter 9 for some insights into why the problem of evil can't have the answer you hope it does. Don't have time to replicate it all here.

You are trying to divert this to something that wasn't asked. Yes the issue of evil is complicated but not what was asked in the OP.

The OP asked why God does not reveal himself. Your answer is that he already has and that the Church is now his presence in the world today. He didn't question Jesus, only in that why send Jesus down 2000+ years ago but not now.

I don't want to misrepresent what you said, or for you to feel that I am not listening, as believe me I am. Are you saying that the reason that God doesn't reveal himself today as he has in the past is that he doesn't need a reason?

I struggle with this as well. Why were the Jews considered to be more needing of God direct intervention that we are? Either evil was worse back then or we have become closer to god since. I can't see any other option.

Now, if we take the first. Then would must conclude that, overall, God is happy with the world as it now is. With famine, disease, divorce, abortion, gay marriage, child rape, murder, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons. It is nothing to do with evil, it is a comparison of the state of the world between when God decided to send down Jesus to now.

The second option is that we are closer to God. Taken all the points I raised above, and add on the increasing atheism in the world I find this hard to fathom as being true.

It has been pointed out before that we simply do not understand God's will, and for myself that is completely true. But can you say that you do? If you don't understand it (and safe to say you don't) then how can you be confident in something you don't know? You have no idea whether God has forsaken us or not. The only evidence we have is that previously he seemed to take an active role in the lives of people and now he doesn't. Why has this changed?

Leroy42

EirWatchr wrote: »

They can. To know God is to choose to do God's will, which is always love. In the presence of pure love, who would choose evil?

Well its not always love is it? The killing of the Egyptians. Destruction of Sodam and Gomorrah. Allowing Judas to suffer such torment as to hand himself. The destruction of the world in the flood?

Satan seemingly choose evil. Adam and Eve choose to question God.

If free will can exist even with the knowledge of God, then there is no reason for God not to reveal himself to us now, since it would not reduce free will. Evil can still exist, God goodness can still be seen in contrast.

EirWatchr wrote: »

Unless by contrast with the evil/suffering we've had to experience in this life?

So you believe that we recall what happened in our lives when we sit in heaven? How would you be in heaven knowing that a child/friend/loved one etc were in distress on earth, or worse that they had been sent to hell.

I hate to think of my kids suffering whilst I am away, would heaven not be a torment knowing that?

EirWatchr

Leroy42 wrote: »

I hate to think of my kids suffering

How do you feed those kids? Do you have a job?! You seem to have abundant time for theological discourses here. I have to work now - theological essays later.

nozzferrahhtoo

hinault wrote: »

Christians do believe that Jesus Christ will return again.

Actually I have met a quantity of people who describe themselves as Christian who do NOT believe that. The ones I met did indeed believe Jesus to be the son of a god, and his human form was murdered, but not that he is going to return.

It always worries me when someone who considers themselves "Christian" presumes to dictate to others what you have to believe to be "Christian".

There are, according to the world Christian Encyclopedia (and my copy is quite old now, so I would expect the current number to be different and likely higher) over 33,000 different brands, sects, variations and cults around Christianity. I do not think any one of them gets to tell any other one of them what they do believe, should believe, or must believe.

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps you too do not believe the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament as well?

Which one? There are different variations on the bible. Some with more text than others. Some with different translations than others.

And that is before you get into the multitude of INTERPRETATIONS of each particular text, and what each reader thinks it means.

Not reading the same bible as you, or not interpreting a passage the same way as you, is not the same as saying they do not believe the words.

NIMAN wrote: »

"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

It is possible to expand that question. Not only do the gods not show themselves, but they appear to have contrived to build a universe that looks and operates EXACTLY like one would look and operate were there to be no god.

There is a difference, I feel, between not showing yourself to exist, and contriving to build everything in such a way that looks exactly like it would IF You did not exist.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

hinault wrote: »

OP is in the Christianity section of this site.

hinault is correct, it is the Christianity forum so the discussion will lean towards a Christian outlook.

Moderator asleep on the job again, (non)shocker.

If you've a problem with moderation, take it to Helpdesk.

Don't derail the thread.

Thanks for your attention.

I love Sean nos

Leroy42 wrote: »

Surely Christians must question why the Jews appear to be closer to God affections than they are? God delivered Jews from Slavery, gave them his only Son, gave them a promised land.

I think that question was answered in the 1930s and 40s.

Don2012

NIMAN wrote: »

I would not be a person of faith, and would describe myself as agnostic.

A simple question always pops into my head, and I'd like to throw it out there to all those who have a belief in a higher power or God.

"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"

It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.

We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.

Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?

Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?

God is here! Jesus said before He ascended into heaven "I am with you always, until the end of time". Many people nowadays are so busy with their lives they have no time for God or let Him in their lives. He is always waiting wanting us to turn to Him.

Men cause wars not God! Greed and pride are just a few factors. Men caused diseases, just look at the way water is being interfered with? Fruit and vegetables taste alot different nowadays than they did 20 years ago.

Like I mentioned earlier God is here with us if we turn to Him our lives would change forever. God has not caused the evil in this world Satan has and will continue to do so because so many people are turning away from God.

Yes. The moment we die we meet Jesus face to face. But if the second coming happens in my lifetime I will see Him then.

koumi

Leroy42 wrote: »

It has been pointed out before that we simply do not understand God's will, and for myself that is completely true. But can you say that you do? If you don't understand it (and safe to say you don't) then how can you be confident in something you don't know? You have no idea whether God has forsaken us or not. The only evidence we have is that previously he seemed to take an active role in the lives of people and now he doesn't. Why has this changed?

I'm not a scholar and really don't have much to else to offer on the subject but I read (listened to) the Book of Enoch recently and it answered most of your questions. I don't know if it is a legitimate source of information but in bibilcal perspective it answers questions about Noah, the flood, the evil which walked the earth then, the reasons why God decided to destroy it and why we are where we are now in the sense that you feel forsaken by him. (it's sort of like, well ok I know these are my children and I would much rather they figured out how to do this by themselves instead so will give them enough time to decide if they want to stay or be removed at the end of the day)