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A question to those of faith
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21-06-2017 3:24am#1I would not be a person of faith, and would describe myself as agnostic.
A simple question always pops into my head, and I'd like to throw it out there to all those who have a belief in a higher power or God.
"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"
It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.
We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.
Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?
Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?8
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The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.
Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.
A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.0 -
All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.Peregrinus wrote: »The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.
Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.
A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.
Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."
If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??0 -
God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will."If he (God) does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"
It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.
We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.
Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?
Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.
When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.0 -
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Oh, sure, yes, but the point is that he didn't look like what we might expect God Made Man to look like - no crowns of fire, lightning bolts, choirs of angels, etc. He looked like the not-very-prosperous son of a not-very-famous carpenter from a not-very-big place.All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ...
The point is that in asking for God to "show himself", the OP is asking for God to conform to his expectations of what God showing himself will look like. Which means that, when God does show himself, the OP doesn't notice.
(The OP is not alone. The gospels suggest that practically nobody noticed.)0 -
All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.
Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."
If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??
If he did appear 2000 years ago, it was in a less technical time, with only word of mouth and peoples imaginations as the means to record history.
We have much better technology now, if he was to appear now then surely it would have more impact?
Also, I don't see how his appearance would strip us of our own free will. We would still have that. He doesn't have to intervene, simple appear to show us he exists.0 -
Well, it's had quite a lot of impact already, if you look at the last two thousand years of history!If he did appear 2000 years ago, it was in a less technical time, with only word of mouth and peoples imaginations as the means to record history.
We have much better technology now, if he was to appear now then surely it would have more impact?
More to the point, though, the Christian view is that God is still present in the world, in an incarnate way. The Ascension didn't bring the Incarnation to an end; just marked a change in the way in which it was made manifest.
You obviously don't accept this (which is fair enough). But your questions imply an assumption on your part that if God were to appear in the world, that would be instantly recognisable to you (and everyone else). Obviously, that hasn't happened. Which leaves open two possibilities; (a)God hasn't appeared in the world, or (b) your assumptions about what that would look like are wrong. As a good sceptic, the first thing you should be doing is scrutinising your own assumptions here. So I would turn your question around; how do you know that God hasn't appeared in the world?0 -
Also, I don't see how his appearance would strip us of our own free will. We would still have that. He doesn't have to intervene, simple appear to show us he exists.
To suppose this, you would have to ignore the account of what occurred when God did turn up. Let's say he turns up in anything like his holiness and might (which wasn't how Jesus turned up).
We have accounts of what occurred: people fell flat on their faces, overpowered by the sheer purity and might of him. Bear in mind, that if God exists then you (and me) are sinners. At present the extent of that (sin) in yourself (and myself) is largely hidden from us by our ability to deny and excuse and suppress it. Yes, we have a conscience but that is, relatively speaking, a blunt, dulled instrument.
Were God to turn up then we would immediately see ourselves for what we are (for we would have him and his purity to measure ourselves against) We would realise just how wanting we are: impure, decadent, selfish, cruel, petty, thieving (along with the good things about us) Thus, we would fall flat on our faces. There's no freewill to be found there?
Or God could turn up as Jesus turned up. Deniable, discountable and ultimately, removable. But there isn't any point in God turning up so again: the mission for which he did turn up so was accomplished. There is no need to repeat it.
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God doesn't need to "turn up" in order to demonstrate his existence to a person. He's got access to all areas and doesn't need to confine himself to that which is scientifically demonstrable in order to prove his existence beyond a persons doubt.0 -
Isn't it also the case that part of being christian is actually building your own personal relationship with God.
I guess those who don't or can't even perceive this would find it hard to comprehend, but I find that God works at the moment mostly on an individual basis through the holy spirit.
We don't fully understand the nature of God or even the nature of creation itself, we only comprehend from our own narrow viewpoint.
Once we repent and turn to God can we begin to start understanding and learning through the holy spirit what he has in store for us.
We also know through scripture that Jesus will indeed return and the whole world will see him when he does.0 -
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I would not be a person of faith, and would describe myself as agnostic.
A simple question always pops into my head, and I'd like to throw it out there to all those who have a belief in a higher power or God.
"If he does exist, why doesn't he just show himself?"
It may sound to some like a silly question, but the way I look at it, it would solve every human problem we have.
We'd have no wars, hunger, pain, etc.
Why is 'he' hiding away, watching the mayhem and evil from afar and not being here with us all?
Do you honestly believe that he will show himself one day? Honestly?
If you read the Bible, Genesis tells of God revelation to Adam and Eve. God made Himself known to them.
Because of the Fall (Adam and Eve defying God), humanity's relationship to God became more distant. What God had created had deliberately defied him.
We don't know what the nature of this defiance was. But it is reasonable to conclude that this defiance was sufficient enough to separate us from God.
The question has been asked, why is God apparently asleep/dead? And on one level it may seem a reasonable question.
However if we read Scripture, Jesus tells us that God is with us collectively and individually. And that it is up to each of us to accept that relationship or reject it. It is the exercise of free will, on our part.0 -
Us catholics already have the physical presence of Christin the eucharist but, personally, I think a visual sign of God's presence would nearly be infuriating. Direct questions were put to Christ over 100 times in the gospels and he gave an answer less than 20% of the time. Knowing God is there and hears your prayers and pleas doesn't increase the likelihood of getting an answer or getting an answer you like. Even if there were proof, people would find fault with some other thing he does or doesn't do. Even the jews who say miraculous signs, turned away soon after...
If it's a personal thing op and you just need to know, I can't guide you cos i accidentally found it - i never was looking for it - but maybe ask for some sign. It prob won't be a mathematical solution or a formula; it'll be something personal and tailor-suited to you. Maybe live next week with the notion "maybe God exists?" and see what happens? I guarantee nothing and I'm not trying to trick you but that's what my brain is thinking on this grey sunday afternoon.0 -
Nitpick: "real" or "substantial", not "physical". Physically, it's bread and wine.lazybones32 wrote: »Us catholics already have the physical presence of Christin the eucharist . . .
Sorry. It's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.
And of course belief in the real presence is not confined to us Catholics.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »The theist answer is; he shows himself all the time. Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? You're demanding an unusual, spectacular show, because you presume that ordinary mundane things/events can't be the work of the creator.
Another way of looking at it is to say that you're essentially in the position of a character in a novel asking "why doesn't the author show himself"? The very existence of the novel discloses the existence of the author, but the author isn't a character his own novel. God isn't an element within his own creation, and therefore you don't see him in the way that you see other elements of creation. Rather, you see him in the very fact of creation itself.
A more specifically Christian answer would add that, actually, God has entered into his own creation, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. To continue the analogy, it's (a bit) like an author inserting himself as a character in his own novel. Obviously, to the other characters in the novel, he doesn't look anything fundamentally different; he's just another person in their universe.
Is this novel based on fact of is it fiction? Also when someone writes a book they tend to go on promotional tours, chat shows etc...why wont God not do a State of the World address maybe once a year to tell his or her flock all will be OK in the world? He/She is meant to be the saviour and father/mother to mankind, surely making his/her flock feel safe should be top of his/her priority list.All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.
Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."
If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??
Odd how he/she was willing to give proof thousands of years ago but now in modern times he/she is nowhere to be seen part from in his/her creations? What is he/she hiding from? Why does he/she not come and perform a few miracles now, rid the world of hunger for a start, stop wars would be another. Imagine the following they would have after pulling that off!?
You use this word evidence...can you share some evidence of gods existence! Evidence that would stand up in court perhaps and not just the words of a guy who lived 2000 years ago.God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will.
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.
When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.
So God made a mistake introducing free will then? What other mistakes has (s)he made?Isn't it also the case that part of being christian is actually building your own personal relationship with God.
I guess those who don't or can't even perceive this would find it hard to comprehend, but I find that God works at the moment mostly on an individual basis through the holy spirit.
We don't fully understand the nature of God or even the nature of creation itself, we only comprehend from our own narrow viewpoint.
Once we repent and turn to God can we begin to start understanding and learning through the holy spirit what he has in store for us.
We also know through scripture that Jesus will indeed return and the whole world will see him when he does.
We understand nature more through science than we do a 2000 year old book!!
I shall assume that you have repented and turned to God...what from your learnings has he/she got in store for us...with proof please! Is it another miracle where he/she opens up the sea and lets all the poor people in North Africa free passage to Europe? Maybe he/she will tell us that we are not alone in the universe!?0 -
I don't think you've quite grasped the analogy. If the author of a book goes on a publicity tour, the characters in the book don't observe that.Is this novel based on fact of is it fiction? Also when someone writes a book they tend to go on promotional tours, chat shows etc...
Again, you're just coming up with a simplistic notion of God in your mind, and asking why God doesn't conform to your notion. You fail to ask the obvious question; why should he? "Feeling safe" may be top of your priority list, but perhaps God has different priorities. For example, it could be more important to him that you should feel free.. . .why wont God not do a State of the World address maybe once a year to tell his or her flock all will be OK in the world? He/She is meant to be the saviour and father/mother to mankind, surely making his/her flock feel safe should be top of his/her priority list.0 -
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Has anything been created recently?Peregrinus wrote: »Where else would we see the creator if not in his creation? 0 -
All quite true ... but I would take it a little further, Jesus Christ wasn't just 'another person in the universe' ... He was God made man ... incarnated on Earth 2,000 years ago specifically to do as the OP has asked ... to reveal Himself to Humanity ... and He performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead in full public view and ressurrecting Himself from the dead ... yet most people didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Him.
Indeed in Luke 16:31, Jesus says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."
If somebody doesn't want to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them. Why should God waste His time giving a 100th proof to someone who wasn't convinced by the first 99 ??
Have you ever tried to simply not want to believe in something? Try telling a child that the shadows are not monsters in the room.
Its not the amount of evidence, it is the quality. Apart from the resurrection, God has provided no evidence that cannot be attributed to natural happenings. So even in that there is very little evidence. But God created us, has unlimited time and it appears that are only purpose on earth is to find a relationship with God. Why would God get fed up with helping us in the regard? So you are down to one piece of evidence, which even people at the time didn't universally accept. It was his followers and a few others. It wasn't until the Romans decreed Christianity as the one religion that it made any serious impact.God is omnipotent and has granted us free will. If He started using His omnipotence, this will frustrate the exercise of our free will.
God wants us to freely love Him ... not coerce us into loving Him.
The free will argument does not hold water.
Satan had direct relationship with God and choose to ignore his views. So whilst he may be wrong, he, even knowing God still had free will.
Adam and Eve also had direct relationship with God, but again had free will. So knowing of God's existence does not appear to remove the ability to exercise free will.
The other problem with the free will argument is that, logically, if after death we get to share in the presence of God, then that must mean that free will is removed. So why give us free will for 80 years but remove it for the rest of eternity? What purpose does having free will serve?
And free will does not mean that you leave people ignorant. Real free will comes from telling people the facts and letting them make their own decisions. So why would God leave so much to ignorance. Why would God leave the whole Climate Change open to interpretation for eg? It is not free will that Trump is exercising, it is ignorance of this area. What purpose would that serve?
The OP asked why God does not reveal himself. Religions people would say that God has done plenty of times and based on the Bible, culminating in Jesus arriving on Earth and sacrificing himself to free us of our sins.
So which is it? Does God reveal himself or not? Was it a limited time offer and now it back to the wonders of his creation rather than more immediate signs. Why would God reveal himself multiple times in the Middle East, an area that already believed and were waiting for a messiah, and not reveal himself again.
It is clear that the population of the world continues to grow since 20oo years, and the atheism is increasing even in traditional religions areas, so why has God not seen fit to return to deal with the doubters.
It is simply not believable that God sees little point in returning as people still wouldn't believe. He is the creator, he knows what would work, why not do that.
One must assume that God has the power, so the only conclusions are that he either doesn't want to or doesn't feel it worth it at the present time. Either one would suggest that he cares less about us now than he did previously. Has God given up on us?When it comes to death and mayhem ... unfortunately death and sin was introduced into a sinless perfect world by the free-willed Fall of Adam and Eve ... our common ancestors ... and once evil came into the Universe it cannot be sent back ... until the end of the Universe, when Jesus Christ and the raptured Saints will return to judge the living and the unsaved dead.
... and He will then consign all evil to Hell, where it belongs.
Why? Jesus raised people from the dead but evil cannot be defeated?
You then go on to say that that it will be removed at the end of the universe, so why wait? God is willing to let untold billions suffer simply because to save them doesn't fit with his universe timeline?
Why does God not reveal himself? I don't know. If I had the ability to take away someones suffering, someones fear of death, then I would do it. I try to reduce the pain from my kids as much as possible by soothing them etc.
Why would an all loving God allow people to suffer terrible pain and disease when it is in his power to grant them the knowledge to free them of that. To remove the fear of death.0 -
Have you ever read the parable of the Sower?0
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Have you ever read the parable of the Sower?
You mean in Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:1-15?
Yes I have. And Deuteronomy 32:4 states that 'His work is perfect'.
So taking the parable, and Deuteronomy, one must infer that God means that some of his seeds will not land on the soil. It must therefore be Gods plan that only some people will ever truly understand.
Again I go back to my previous question. It was clear, taking the teachings of the bible, that God took a very direct hand in the affairs of man in the OT and then send Jesus down in the NT. Since then he has stayed removed from us and despite many pleas refuses to reveal himself. So God is very much capable of direct revelation.
Do you think God no longer cares enough about people nowadays to get involved? What other reason is there for his apparent lack of interest since Jesus?0 -
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Do you name your hobbyhorse 'zwingli'? The RCC differ somewhat with your explanation: the bread and wine don't lose their properties but become the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of the risen Christ. A substantial change does occur.Peregrinus wrote: »Nitpick: "real" or "substantial", not "physical". Physically, it's bread and wine.
Sorry. It's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.
And of course belief in the real presence is not confined to us Catholics.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »Again, you're just coming up with a simplistic notion of God in your mind, and asking why God doesn't conform to your notion. You fail to ask the obvious question; why should he? "Feeling safe" may be top of your priority list, but perhaps God has different priorities. For example, it could be more important to him that you should feel free.
Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?
You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?
You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?
If you are Christian, you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
The New Testament describes how Jesus, before His ascension to Heaven, promised that God would be with us in the form of the Holy Ghost.
Gospel of St John Chapter 1416 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever,
17 The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.
20 In that day, you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them: he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot, Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?
23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him:
24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine: but the Father's who sent me.
25 These things have I spoken to you, remaining with you.
26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world giveth, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.
28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come again to you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.
30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, *and as the Father hath given me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Acts of the Apostles Chapter 16 They, therefore, who were come together, asked him, saying; Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel:
7 But he said to them; It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:
8 *But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, **and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight.0 -
In the Christian view, you yourself and everything around you are "creation". You yourself would be a relatively recent creation, I suppose, but I'm not sure why "recent" would enter into this at all.I love Sean nos wrote: »Has anything been created recently?0 -
So according to Hinault, it is the Holy Spirit that is with us, not God.
It doesn't in any way answer the question that he was responding toOriginally Posted by johnnyskeleton View Post
Well then why did he ever do it? Why did he feel the need to prove his existance c. 4000 years ago to Moses and c. 2000 to Jesus and since that time hasnt bothered? Surely a good time for him to weigh in would have been over the last 100 years, or are things like the holocaust and church sex abuse so low on his list of priorities that he doesnt care enough to go to the minimal, in fact infintesimal (as he is omnipotent) effort of proving himself then?
You know, just a quick - "seriously lads im all for free will and all but stop murdering each other" said from a high mountain and in a deep voice wouldve done a lot of good, no?
Why hasn't god returned 2000 years since the last time when such terrible things have happened. We have witnessed terrible wars, disease, droughts, famine, plagues, torture and cruelty, apartheid, genocide and now are faced with the potential destruction of the planet as we have known it. And nothing, cept for some people claiming they hear the holy spirit in their prayers and a few, questionable, miracles.
The almighty God left to mess about with moving statues and Jesus likeness in toast!
Why? One can only infer that indeed it is the Jews that are his chosen people as it is only that he seems to care for, or at least did up to 2000 years ago. Why has God stopped interacting with us? Does he not love us as much as he used to, or are we no longer in need of his direct guidance?0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »In the Christian view, you yourself and everything around you are "creation". You yourself would be a relatively recent creation, I suppose, but I'm not sure why "recent" would enter into this at all.
It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.
Boards.ie.:D0 -
It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.
Boards.ie.:D
I would have thought that even those that believe would be interested in God revealing himself.
Imagine the world changing dynamic that would bring about? God could, in a single event, unite the peoples of the world as one. He could end all violence and war. He could could peace and harmony and allow man to concentrate on the real issues that face us. Disease, famine etc instead of wasting time arguing, and in many cases, fighting, over not only does God exist, but whose God is the real one and what that God actually wants.
Why are believers in God so willing to allow such suffering, suffering that God could easily remove.
Are the Christians today less believing in God than those of the ME 2000+ years ago? Why did God continue to visit and help them but has seemingly decided to ignore us?
Why were the lepers and postitutes etc of Palestine 2000 years ago worthy of miracles but a dying baby today is left to suffer. It is not that I expect anybody to know what God's plan is, but have you even questioned it? Have you questioned why God has seemingly forsaken the children raped by the priests in his own church? Why the young girls with babies were treated so cruelly in workhouses on the basis of what God wants.
Why did the Holy Spirit not visit these priests/nuns to show them the error of their ways? He was prepared to get involved to get the Israelites out of Egypt but apparently felt nothing got the slaves brought from Africa to US.
Why?0 -
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hinault wrote:It seems that several here are demanding that the God they refuse to believe exists, to reveal Himself.
Boards.ie.:DI love Sean nos wrote: »Well done for misunderstanding (deliberately perhaps) the entire thread. :rolleyes:
All Christians accept that God is with us, individually and collectively, throughout this life.
Each of the Christian posters on this thread have alluded to this.
One tenet of Christianity is not to test God. The Gospels teach this tenet.
Demanding that God reveals Himself would directly contradict that tenet.0 -
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