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Legality of carrying a knife for self defense

  • 17-06-2017 2:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 356 ✭✭


    I got assaulted pretty badly by a fella with homicidal rage (and some of his friends), completely unprovoked. Long story short, I'm good friends with his mother (new friends, but already really good friends), and shes not letting him terrorize or dominate him anymore, I'm her friend and I'm not going anywhere. And for whatever reason, hes decided he wants to kill me (he outright said it on the phone while I was in the car with her "I KNOW YOUR THERE AND YOU CAN HEAR ME, I'M GONNA KILL YOU!". It wasn't only seen by neighbours, I think it was actually caught on camera. The gards know exactly what happened, I chose not to press charges out of good will, respect and integrity (him going to jail would just cause more suffering). The circumstances, you have no idea, if it went to court it would be unanimous among the jury, and the judge would be harsh about it.

    But anyhow, having a death threat looming over me, it'd be reassuring to have a blade I can use to fend off an attack by multiple people. I'm a Buddhist (well not really, I just follow the path of loving kindness, good will to all beings), I don't intend on hurting anyone, I go for the route that creates most happiness and causes least suffering. I know you can carry a blade, and the gards will assess you to determine if you have a legitimate reason to have it. Is self defense considered a legitimate reason?

    Also, what kind of blades can be carried? I read this:

    (2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

    (3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had the article with him for use at work or for a recreational purpose.

    (4) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—

    (a) any flick-knife, or

    (b) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,

    he shall be guilty of an offence.

    (5) Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence.

    4 and 5 seem to contradict each other? How I interpret 4 is you can carry a flick knife or any weapon intended to incapacitate someone if you can prove to the gards you have a legitimate reason to have it. Then 5 says that carrying any article intended to intimidate or incapacitate a person is unlawful. So which is it? After being assaulted badly (literally two days out of hospital from a back injury the left me walking like an old man, I was incapacitated and defenseless), so there would be no doubt in anyones mind that I have good reason need something for self defense. Does this mean I can carry a weapon legally?

    This fella could show up at my house, be waiting for me on the streets, I could run into him at any time. So in a worst case scenario, if I got surrounded, theres no way I'm gonna let my family deal with the pain of me being killed. I'd like to be able to fend them off, and if I'm surrounded the only realistic way would be with a blade. Best case scenario, they'd run away. Worst case scenario, I'd slash a few of them and they'd back off, and end up with a scar. I flick knife would be out of the question because you can only stab with those, I'd never do anything to cause serious damage. A butterfly knife would be ideal cuz I would get it out rapidly and if they come at me, slash one or two of them and hopefully they back off. Even if they got weapons themselves, it'd give me a decent chance.

    Its very unlikely anything like this would happen, but it'd be reassuring to know that if it did, I could scare them off.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,102 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    If you carry anything for self protection it's illegal and most of the time the self protection weapon carrier is usually injured by the weapon that they are carrying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Self defence is not a legitimate reason to carry a weapon in Ireland.
    The legitimate reason clause is for the like of chefs carrying their knives to and from work


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭FanadMan


    The homicidal rage guy will probably take the knife off you and use it on you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Wouldn't it fall into pre meditated rather than self defense if you were carrying a knife explicitly to use it to hurt someone?
    It seems very planned out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭St. Leibowitz


    My understanding is that carrying any device for self defence is not a defence in court. In fact, judges take a very dim view of members of the public doing their job. If a guard asks you why you've a baseball bat in your car, it's for playing rounders, for tamping down divots on the golf course, for knocking apples off your apple tree ... ANYTHING but self defence.

    Knives move into a different league. Slashing and leaving a scar may be what you think you intend, but probably not going to be the outcome. More than likely, you'll be stuck with your own blade.

    I don't have any advice, but the law is clear. Carrying a sharpened pencil, if it can be proven that you intend to stab someone with it, even in self defence, comes down to commiting an offence.

    Regarding 4 and 5. I think they are clear.

    4 references a) flickknives, which are just illegal, or b) anything made or adapted to harm. So a pointy stick is covered.

    5 references articles not adapted. So a baseball bat is covered.

    If you carry a blade, you need a lawful reason. You've got a Stanley knife? You should be a carpet fitter going to a job. You're a carpet fitter, and you forgot to take it out of your pocket when heading out for a drink ... that's not a good reason for having it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    You do realise if it was legal for you to carry a knife for self-defence, it would be legal for him to carry a knife right up to the point where he stabs you with it?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,912 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Pepper spray, just make sure you are up wind, no point in spraying that and having it blown back on you and then they have a blinded target to kick the crap out off. Wind direction is key.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,102 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Pepper spray, just make sure you are up wind, no point in spraying that and having it blown back on you and then they have a blinded target to kick the crap out off. Wind direction is key.

    Pepper spray is an offensive weapon in this country.

    But people regularly carry stuff which can be as effective, I've no hair so don't have a use for it so could be done for carrying a weapon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Are Am Eye


    BogMonkey wrote: »
    I'm a Buddhist

    I'm sure you know the story of the monk and the scorpion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    What you are asking is completely illegal..
    You can completely avoid the situation by not seeing your new "friend"
    What you are talking about is basically premeditated murder... and you have asked about the legality on a public forum... that deal with the police on a regular bases.. if you hurt that person you can be sure that your computer would be gone through and even if you deleted everything your ip address is in a server log...
    Considering in another post you talk about being in a mental institution for psychosis i am going to advise you do not under any circumstances carry a weapon illegally for your protection. It is illegal, you have no right to do so in Ireland.
    Call the police and report the person for making a threat against you... that is their job...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 356 ✭✭BogMonkey


    Okay so carrying a knife is completely outta the question then. The laws are so different here than the US. Ah its alright, I can take this fella down in a fight without a bother, if he has a weapon cripple his right leg so badly he won't be able to won't come anywhere near me. His mates aren't bad fellas I don't think, he probably wouldn't unleash the full rage with them around. His punches weren't even strong enough to break my nose (which I've broken twice already), I was so drunk I didn't know where I was and had just come out of hospital after having two seizures. The most confusing beating of my life. This is life, we live and learn.

    No, it is not premeditated murder. Lets use America as an analogy. In many states you can get a license to carry a gun. If you shoot someone in self defense this is not even considered murder, it is completely legal. You suspecting who the attacker might be does not change the fact that its self defense. If you even read the thread, you would see that I said I HAVE NO INTENTION OF HARMING HIM IN ANY WAY. I didn't press charges because I don't want the poor fella to have to go to jail, someone like him going into jail without being able to control his anger, he'd have the anger beaten out of him and would be lucky to come out alive. I wouldn't stab him, I wouldn't even slash him unless it was unavoidable, and a little slash is nothing, just leaves you with a scar.  A tough love lesson might be what he needs, but understand shes my friend, hes her son. Despite him terrorizing her, there will always be that mother-son bond. I wouldn't do that to my friend.

    St. Leibowitz: Thanks. That clears it up. When I think of it now, thank God its not legal to carry knives like that, theres enough stabbings as it is.

    juice1304:
    No I won't abandon my new friend. A big milestone just happened today. Yesterday I was in the car with her, she was saying "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE REPEATEDLY", and not his whole attitude has shifted, hes asking for permission to eat her food, he seems to be realising hes not the boss. I can handle myself, I don't need a knife, I was just asking if it was legal, I see now its not, so I won't carry a knife. I thought maybe given my circumstances, I would qualify for having a legitimate reason, but I'm guessing legitimate reasons are anything that exclude violence or threats of violence.
    juice1304 wrote: »
    What you are asking is completely illegal..
    You can completely avoid the situation by not seeing your new "friend"
    What you are talking about is basically premeditated murder... and you have asked about the legality on a public forum... that deal with the police on a regular bases.. if you hurt that person you can be sure that your computer would be gone through and even if you deleted everything your ip address is in a server log...
    Considering in another post you talk about being in a mental institution for psychosis i am going to advise you do not under any circumstances carry a weapon illegally for your protection. It is illegal, you have no right to do so in Ireland.
    Call the police and report the person for making a threat against you... that is their job...

    No I'm not calling the police, this woman loves her son, and it would cause her pain to call the police. And no I am not abandoning my friend because her son is angry and violent. That would be weak and spineless. We're all in this thing together, its not "every man for himself". I would willingly hand my laptop over to the gards because it is so loaded with evidence that I have done nothing but helped my friend, and done nothing but look for a resolution to this problem with her son so that she can live in peace. Today seems like a huge victory, but we'll see how tomorrow and the next day go.
    Its legal to carry
    28064212 wrote: »
    You do realise if it was legal for you to carry a knife for self-defence, it would be legal for him to carry a knife right up to the point where he stabs you with it?

    Yes. Its legal to carry all kinds of knives and weapons believe it or not. Anything used in construction, there you got a valid explanation. You were doing a construction job in your house. Back when I was young and dumb, living in another country, I decided to go homeless for a while. Got arrested the first night, they found a box cutter in my pocket. They handcuffed me and threw me in the back of the car and locked me up for the night. Next morning, they let me out and gave me the box cutter back. You can carry a screwdriver, you can carry those dry wall saws, chisels. The police in that other country (Canada) didn't even ask for an explanation about the box cutter. In America its legal to carry guns for self defense. I see your point entirely, but I'm guessing now you see mine.
    FanadMan wrote: »
    The homicidal rage guy will probably take the knife off you and use it on you.
    He could be more likely to have an a few veins severed trying to take a knife from me. Have you ever considered what it would be like trying to take a knife from someone? Knives are a very scary weapon to come up against. I'm glad I've never been unlucky enough to have been in a knife fight (or any fight involving weapons for that matter).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 356 ✭✭BogMonkey


    Half the people misinterpreted what I said in this thread, but I have a beautiful update. This win win, everyones happy resolution seems to be unfolding. My friend says its like a switch has been flipped. He went out last night, and he is not the same person anymore. He is now giving her the respect she deserves and accepts that its her house, not his. I don't know what happened last night, but I'm guessing he learned a tough love lesson. Its not easy learning lessons these ways, but we all learn them one way or another. This was my intent all along, for my friend to reunite with her son, for her to be at peace and both of them support each other. It looks like its starting to happen. I knew in my heart it was gonna happen, it was unfair to possibly risk my families lives, but I couldn't abandon her (he grabbed phone one day while we were skyping and said "leave my mother alone, last warning"). Theres no way I'd abandon my friend based on a threat. But anyway, it looks like something good is happening. When I was sitting in the car with her yesterday, she was really assertive, she wasn't taking any ****. I can only speculate as to what brought about the sudden shift, but I'm just glad this resolution is finally coming about :heart: I knew it would eventually.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    Wouldn't it fall into pre meditated rather than self defense if you were carrying a knife explicitly to use it to hurt someone?
    It seems very planned out

    That would require proof of intent. I see your point but mere possession would not of itself establish intent to use the knife as a weapon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    That would require proof of intent. I see your point but mere possession would not of itself establish intent to use the knife as a weapon.

    I see what you mean, thanks.


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