The Offseason 2017

LuckyLloyd

Seems time to get this started as conversation in the Finals thread has turned to it already:

Gregk961 wrote: »

The Cavs are not an great shape this off season either. No cap room so all they can do(assuming Lebron and Kyrie stay) is trade Love, which may not even be the right move, or as I heard somebody suggest Tristan Thompson.

Love for Paul George seems to be what people are latching onto but its probably wishful thinking more than realistic. I dont know what you can get for Thompson but im sure it isnt going to be groundbreaking. It will be interesting to see what the Celtics do, surely they have to roll the dice now and go after the Cavs.

Im sure the Warriors dont have any intention of changing things up but im not sure what their situation is with contracts. Surely Zaza has to go? After that Id fight to keep the other pieces intact. The Warriors only competition seems to be the Spurs and maybe the Rockets so those two will probably make moves.

New Orleans need a few Sharpshooters and they will surely be a threat to any team.

[quote=[Deleted User];103804611]Problem with the cabs now Is any vets looking for a rings will sign with the warriors that's what the cabs have been relying on but I can't imagine any vets turning down money to go to them any more[/QUOTE]

The Cavs are $28m over the cap and will only have room for Mid Level Exceptions.

Kyle Korver ($9.9m), James Jones ($1.5m), Deron Williams ($1.5), Derrick Williams ($1.5) and Dahntay Jones ($1.5m) all expire at the end of the month. This eliminates all the additional depth gathered to see them through the playoffs while doing nothing to improve their cap woes.

I'm not sure what they will do regarding that depth but I think they'll have to wait until buyout season to fully address it. If they can trade Love for George they absolutely should. This may work for George and Indy who respectively would get a shot at a ring before FA and would get a replacement in contract through 2020. From the Cavs perspective, it could represent a last roll of the dice before the team potentially breaks up after next season.

Eyes Down Field

It's possiblly Lebron's last season in Cleveland next year. So would Paul George want to go to Cleveland? More importantly can Cleveland run the risk of both James and George walking in 2018 and leaving the franchise high and dry.

LuckyLloyd

Eyes Down Field wrote: »

It's possiblly Lebron's last season in Cleveland next year. So would Paul George want to go to Cleveland? More importantly can Cleveland run the risk of both James and George walking in 2018 and leaving the franchise high and dry.

I think George would as he'll be a Free Agent in 2018 so why the **** not? Otherwise he stays in Indy for the year struggling to make the playoffs before leaving for pastures new anyway. Cleveland should be looking to maximise whatever the LeBron window remaining for them is. They should be relentlessly short term in their mindset right now as they have a Championship calibre squad. If they could improve weaknesses and get the rotational mix right they could take the Warriors an extra game or two and, like last year, when you stay in a series who knows what might happen.

Eyes Down Field

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think George would as he'll be a Free Agent in 2018 so why the **** not? Otherwise he stays in Indy for the year struggling to make the playoffs before leaving for pastures new anyway. Cleveland should be looking to maximise whatever the LeBron window remaining for them is. They should be relentlessly short term in their mindset right now as they have a Championship calibre squad. If they could improve weaknesses and get the rotational mix right they could take the Warriors an extra game or two and, like last year, when you stay in a series who knows what might happen.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think George would as he'll be a Free Agent in 2018 so why the **** not? Otherwise he stays in Indy for the year struggling to make the playoffs before leaving for pastures new anyway. Cleveland should be looking to maximise whatever the LeBron window remaining for them is. They should be relentlessly short term in their mindset right now as they have a Championship calibre squad. If they could improve weaknesses and get the rotational mix right they could take the Warriors an extra game or two and, like last year, when you stay in a series who knows what might happen.

There is also talked of Love being moved for Carmelo or Jimmy Butler. Of the 3, Butler would be the best decision for them long term, Carmelo doesn't make much sense, doesn't make them better, But he is Lebron's buddy. George great for the short term, but will likely leave after a year with Lebron.

LuckyLloyd

Carmelo is a winner (his Team USA / College play indicates that) frustrated for most of his career so he might just come in and ball out of his mind for a year as a friend of LeBron and a star player desperate for a ring. But on paper he's a terrible fit - he's a high usage iso scorer who doesn't play great defense and rebound consistently. I don't see them being better if they swapped Love for Melo - but I would be willing to try it because Love has been desperate two finals series in a row overall relative to what he needs to be.

Gregk961

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Carmelo is a winner (his Team USA / College play indicates that) frustrated for most of his career so he might just come in and ball out of his mind for a year as a friend of LeBron and a star player desperate for a ring. But on paper he's a terrible fit - he's a high usage iso scorer who doesn't play great defense and rebound consistently. I don't see them being better if they swapped Love for Melo - but I would be willing to try it because Love has been desperate two finals series in a row overall relative to what he needs to be.

The last thing the Cavs need is Melo. Their D is already poor why add another suspect defender for 30+ minutes per game. His offense gives you an extra win over the Warriors at best or swept aside even easier than this year at worst. Somebody like Butler or George has to be the target, keep Love otherwise.

LuckyLloyd

Gregk961 wrote: »

The last thing the Cavs need is Melo. Their D is already poor why add another suspect defender for 30+ minutes per game. His offense gives you an extra win over the Warriors at best or swept aside even easier than this year at worst. Somebody like Butler or George has to be the target, keep Love otherwise.

Because you might conclude that you can't stop the Warriors anyway and you need to score 120 against them consistently to win. Love scored 9 and 6 points respectively in the last two losses of the series - losses that were by 5 and 9 points respectively. Bottom line is that isn't acceptable as the third option offensively. Melo isn't ending up with less than 20 points in a key playoff game, imo (his playoffs ppg average for his career is 25 vs Love's 15).

I don't think Melo instead of Love is enough, but I think they're better in a series against the Warriors if it came to pass, and they'll march through the East either way.

When LeBron is kicking it outside for open looks in moneytime, much rather Melo taking those shots.

Eyes Down Field

I think most people would agree that the Celtics are best placed to challenge Cleveland in the east next season. But does anyone see a challenger to Golden State in the west? OKC, Houston and San Antonio all have one great player leading their team but not much else, Even if any of them did acquire a Paul, George, Jimmy Butler or Carmelo Anthony, would it really worry GS?

LuckyLloyd

San Antonio might conclude that they had a shot given that they were on course to win game one before Kawhi went down, and not want to change a huge amount.

K.O.Kiki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

San Antonio might conclude that they had a shot given that they were on course to win game one before Kawhi went down, and not want to change a huge amount.

Spurs need to replace Tony & Manu though, they're getting old.
Tony's going to be recovering from serious injury, too.

LuckyLloyd

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Spurs need to replace Tony & Manu though, they're getting old.
Tony's going to be recovering from serious injury, too.

I wouldn't be surprised if both come back. Manu's 21m contract is expired on July 01st though, and he'll be resigning for a much lower number if he does. Actually looking at their cap, they should have a little room to manoeuvre as they have $7m in space and plenty of luxury tax space to eat into. Enough to resign Mills anyway and work out their depth as they please.

I kind of love their situation. Beyond next summer, they only have four players signed up:

Kawhi Leonard; 25; 2020
LaMarcus Aldridge; 31; 2019
Danny Green; 29; 2019
Dejounte Murray; 20; 2020

Parker, Gasol, Lee, Bertans, Anderson, Forbes all expire next year

And Manu, Mills, Simmons and Anthony are out of contract now.

Pop is 68, so he may not want to hang around for another rebuild, but they are perfectly poised to rebuild around Kawhi after next year.

Eyes Down Field

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Pop is 68, so he may not want to hang around for another rebuild, but they are perfectly poised to rebuild around Kawhi after next year.

It will be strange to see a Spurs team without Pop. No coach embodies their team quite like him. Those are some big shoes to fill

snotboogie

Eyes Down Field wrote: »

I think most people would agree that the Celtics are best placed to challenge Cleveland in the east next season.

It depends what they do over the next few weeks, there is huge talk of them moving the first pick to Philly for Philly's 3rd this year, the Lakers unprotected next year and either the Kings unprotected 2019 or the 76ers own pick next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boston make the trade and just gamble on a hugely talented 2018 draft class, the Lakers, 76ers and Brooklyn still being bad and the lottery balls going their way. In theory the Celtics could end up with Jayson Tatum, Luca Doncic and Michael Porter Jr for Markelle Fultz, that's not including their unprotected Brooklyn pick in the same draft which they could use to get Mo Bamba or DeAndre Ayton. Obviously it could also end up being Tatum and two non lottery picks for Fultz. Interesting times

Eyes Down Field

snotboogie wrote:

It depends what they do over the next few weeks, there is huge talk of them moving the first pick to Philly for Philly's 3rd this year, the Lakers unprotected next year and either the Kings unprotected 2019 or the 76ers own pick next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boston make the trade and just gamble on a hugely talented 2018 draft class, the Lakers, 76ers and Brooklyn still being bad and the lottery balls going their way. In theory the Celtics could end up with Jayson Tatum, Luca Doncic and Michael Porter Jr for Markelle Fultz, that's not including their unprotected Brooklyn pick in the same draft which they could use to get Mo Bamba or DeAndre Ayton. Obviously it could also end up being Tatum and two non lottery picks for Fultz. Interesting times

If they can make a trade like that, It makes sense, especially in the long term. There are certainly allot of highly rated prospects in the next few draft classes. Porter, Ayton and Bamba next year but also Zion Williamson and Marvin Bagley in 2019.

I think allot hangs on whether they are going to commit long term to Thomas as their PG. Do they really want to give a hugely undersized guard max dollars? Or will they roll the dice on Fultz?
As good as the class of 2018/19 look, They are noticibly lacking in back court talent. The time to draft a young PG is now with Fultz, Ball, Fox and the highly underrated Denis Smith Jr up for selection.

Boston are in a great position with so many options. Excited to see what happens

Pyjamarama

I think the deal is going to get done. The deal makes sense for both teams. Philly have too much draft capital to not do it imo. Give up their 2018 and the Kings 2019 would be the most likely imo. I think with Fultz in there the philly pick won't be a lottery. They won too many games this season with Embid hardly playing and no Simmons to not win more with both (tho you can't count on Embid at this stage) and Fultz. Brett Brown is a good coach imo.

For the Celtics they don't need Fultz and they're obviously completely in love with Josh Jackson. Which i understand, the guy is a freak who could end up being the best player in the draft. This could be just like the Hardaway Webster deal. People often say that the warriors lost that trade but they got an awesome player in Webber, it just didn't work out.

Deal Is done 1st for 3rd this year and either 1st from lakers next if it falls between 2-5 or 2019 kings first

Pyjamarama

Celtics fans in meltdown on Twitter. Sixers fans getting tattoos of Sam Hinkie on their butt cheeks.

At the end of the day you never know, Fultz might bust but he's a solid athlete who can shoot and create his own shots, hard for a guy like that to total bust in todays nba. With Simmons and Embid the sixers don't need him to be an MVP level guy but he could be a solid all star type player.

If and its a HUGE if, Joel stays healthy the sixers look perfectly positioned to dominate post Lebron era.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Carmelo is a winner (his Team USA / College play indicates that) frustrated for most of his career so he might just come in and ball out of his mind for a year as a friend of LeBron and a star player desperate for a ring. But on paper he's a terrible fit - he's a high usage iso scorer who doesn't play great defense and rebound consistently. I don't see them being better if they swapped Love for Melo - but I would be willing to try it because Love has been desperate two finals series in a row overall relative to what he needs to be.

Every time I think this forum has reached a new high (or maybe it's low?) in terms of ridiculousness, it goes and outdoes itself.

All of the other crazy stuff that's been spouted before makes perfect sense now if Melo is seen as the solution to problems.

ButtersSuki

Whilst I'm surprised (to put it mildly) at the Celtics move I'm assuming there's a bigger picture at play here in the background re. signing a next level guy....even though logic would dictate the #1 pick would have been part of any package. Interesting to see how this unfolds.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Every time I think this forum has reached a new high (or maybe it's low?) in terms of ridiculousness, it goes and outdoes itself.

All of the other crazy stuff that's been spouted before makes perfect sense now if Melo is seen as the solution to problems.

Your narrative based views of the sport are irrelevant to be frank, as is the certainty with which you proclaim them. If you are interested in actually engaging with posts and rebutting assertions made within I'm all ears mind.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Your narrative based views of the sport are irrelevant to be frank, as is the certainty with which you proclaim them. If you are interested in actually engaging with posts and rebutting assertions made within I'm all ears mind.

Why would I engage with someone who considers my views irrelevant? I've often discussed Melo over the years on the forum and you can read back over them if so wish; I certainly won't be wasting my time or energy retyping them.

I thought you were just a biased LeBron fanboy, but this is a new low. Melo? Smh. You loco.

D2D

Alright, that's enough. We've had it in the Playoffs thread and I've no intentions of seeing/letting it happen in this. All this stuff can be dealt with through Private Messaging etc....

Only warning, keep on topic

NufcNavan

PG has completely screwed us. Had he been up front behind closed doors, we could have come out with something good.

I don't blame the Pacers for not trading him given all the mixed signals he's sent. One day he's giggling with Kimmel about not talking to Kobe yet, then another day he's sporting Pacer merch with JO/Granger and taking about wanting a title here. He's done nothing but play mind games and send mixed signals. He's really screwed us now.

I don't blame the Pacers for not trading him. Franchises generally aren't better off when they lose a star. Also, teams (Magic, Nuggets, Hornets, Thunder) generally aren't better off when a star leaves. The Pacers in the last five years built a fanbase back up after the disastrous 2000's. Trading stars generally doesn't help ticket sales.

LuckyLloyd

They need to trade him now though, now that they know.

Paully D

If the Bulls trade away Butler, Paxson and Foreman should be ran out of their building (it should happen anyway, but...).

Keep him, build around him. If you're getting picks, realistically the best case scenario is landing another Butler.

The NBA draft is one of the hardest things to hit on IMO unless there's a sure fire #1 and even that is an inexact science at times.

Any decisions should be made with Butler at the forefront of the franchise.

LuckyLloyd

http://hoopshype.com/2017/06/15/nba-free-agency-2017-the-top-players/

Decent list of the players potentially available from June 1st. Of course, for the player options we'll know if they've exercised or not by June 24th. Team options can be decided up to close on June 29th.

Paully D

Cavs working on a multi team trade deal for Butler, per Marc Stein.

Only GarPax would be stupid enough to even entertain it. Imagine actually letting him go to Cleveland. Those two bumbling idiots will probably do it too.

LuckyLloyd

Butler is out of there in two years. The last year is a player option for less than the max. Chicago getting a good deal now is probably better than being in Indiana's situation this summer with George. And Chicago have obviously decided that they have too much work to do to win a championship from here in two years. They also have very little committed (apart from Butler) beyond next year, so if they got a raft of picks they'd be in good shape cap wise to do a full rebuild.

I think there is some merit to their thinking if they arrange a block buster deal.

LuckyLloyd

https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/877006123357929472

Griffen and assistant out in Cleveland. As such, don't expect they'll be coming up with any blockbuster deals this week.

ButtersSuki

One stat that hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) been posted on here since the Finals ended was that statistically, LeBron's performance in the Finals was his best 5 game stretch since he entered the league. Amazing he did that at his age on one level, but testament to the amazing athlete (in a pure athletic sense) he is. I read last year that he spends approx. $1m per year "on his body" (nutritionists/chefs, massueses, personal trainers etc.) and given his injury free career and performances, it clearly shows.

ButtersSuki

That US Men's U16 team I met in Denver a couple of weekends ago seem to have done ok at the tournament they went to.....:pac: Won their semi by 70+ and the final by 51.

https://www.usab.com/mens/u16/schedule.aspx

HigginsJ

I don't typically post in here but apparently there are rumours that the Knicks are open to trading Kristaps Porzingis and will draft Lauri Markkanen as his replacement in the draft.

Now I know Phil Jackson has been pretty poor as a GM thus far but even this must be beyond him? It's being reported by Adrian Wojnarowski.

What sort of package would it take for the Knicks to trade him?

HigginsJ

HigginsJ wrote: »

I don't typically post in here but apparently there are rumours that the Knicks are open to trading Kristaps Porzingis and will draft Lauri Markkanen as his replacement in the draft.

Now I know Phil Jackson has been pretty poor as a GM thus far but even this must be beyond him? It's being reported by Adrian Wojnarowski.

What sort of package would it take for the Knicks to trade him?

Apparently every workout they did with every prospect was triangle based the knicks are a ****show

ButtersSuki

HigginsJ wrote: »

I don't typically post in here but apparently there are rumours that the Knicks are open to trading Kristaps Porzingis and will draft Lauri Markkanen as his replacement in the draft.

Now I know Phil Jackson has been pretty poor as a GM thus far but even this must be beyond him? It's being reported by Adrian Wojnarowski.

What sort of package would it take for the Knicks to trade him?

Honestly? Prob not that much. I think I'd Boston offered them the 1 pick - and maybe, maybe - someone like an Avery Bradley then that does it. Though honestly I think the 1 pick alone would have done it.

For other teams 1 player at lower end All-Star level depending on age and someone just below it again if he's young + a pick maybe.

I don't think NY have much leverage. He's already indicated he MAY leave.

HigginsJ

Calliope Proud Dustpan wrote: »

Apparently every workout they did with every prospect was triangle based the knicks are a ****show

Sigh

Pyjamarama

I doubt Kristaps gets traded. Celtics should be trying their best to make this trade tho. Pair him and Hayward and thats a big upgrade. Enough to beat the Cavs? Maybe not next year but the following year when LeBron is playing in LA they might make it to the finals to get crushed by the Warriors.

ButtersSuki

The Hawks are sending Howard and the No. 31 overall pick in Thursday's NBA draft to Charlotte for center Miles Plumlee, shooting guard Marco Belinelli and the 41st pick. The deal became official late Tuesday night.

Carcharodon

Knicks must be worst run professional sports team in America. Crazy to trade Porzingas, if he wants out then it's somewhat understandable but only reason he wants out is cos he is on a sinking ship

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The Hawks are sending Howard and the No. 31 overall pick in Thursday's NBA draft to Charlotte for center Miles Plumlee, shooting guard Marco Belinelli and the 41st pick. The deal became official late Tuesday night.

Howard....the gift that keeps on giving

LuckyLloyd

Howard actually had a decent year - better than his last year in Houston certainly. If he produces in and around this level for the next two years I'd suggest it's a good trade for Charlotte.

LuckyLloyd

https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status/876952924194209792

Gilbert, **** sake.

LuckyLloyd

Also Pau Gasol has turned down his $16m player option, presumably going to restructure to give the Spurs more cap space. Returns me to my fawning over the Spurs from last week.

LuckyLloyd

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 1m1 minute ago
More
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.

Marc Stein ✔ @ESPNSteinLine
Can the Lakers now land Paul George by offering Thursday's No. 27 and 28 picks and either Julius Randle or Jordan Clarkson? They're trying.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 1m1 minute ago
More
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.

Marc Stein ✔ @ESPNSteinLine
Can the Lakers now land Paul George by offering Thursday's No. 27 and 28 picks and either Julius Randle or Jordan Clarkson? They're trying.

Lots of interest in PG, even as a 1 year rental. They'll have to do a lot better than that.

Not sure why they're in a rush though as he's pretty much/effectively said the ONLY team he wants to/will play for in 2018-19 in the Lakers.

Eyes Down Field

Why would the Lakers give up assets for George now. When they are already getting him as a free agent next year.

I like the Brooklyn trade. They need to get rid of the Mosgov contact and will Russell moving. It opens the door for De'Arron Fox to take the PG roll from day 1.

LuckyLloyd

The Lakers may be willing to give up assets now because why run the risk of George going somewhere else, having an extraordinarily successful season and being convinced to stay in that situation? Plus Lopez is $21m dollars of effective offense sitting there for the year on a roster, as it stands today, that won't win more than 30 games at a push. No harm bringing in George, going to the playoffs and start to build a culture of winning again. If you can do it with picks and Randle it's a good deal imo.

Paully D

ButtersSuki wrote: »

One stat that hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) been posted on here since the Finals ended was that statistically, LeBron's performance in the Finals was his best 5 game stretch since he entered the league. Amazing he did that at his age on one level, but testament to the amazing athlete (in a pure athletic sense) he is. I read last year that he spends approx. $1m per year "on his body" (nutritionists/chefs, massueses, personal trainers etc.) and given his injury free career and performances, it clearly shows.

Yep. He's an insane talent, but as well as that you don't see him out in the clubs partying or just being silly off the court in general. He looks after himself so well. That $1m a year is a solid, solid investment.

snotboogie

Eyes Down Field wrote: »

Why would the Lakers give up assets for George now. When they are already getting him as a free agent next year.

I like the Brooklyn trade. They need to get rid of the Mosgov contact and will Russell moving. It opens the door for De'Arron Fox to take the PG roll from day 1.

If he ends up in Cleveland or Boston would he leave a team that (maybe) just made the NBA finals to go play with Ball and Ingram and fight for the 8 seed?

NufcNavan

As a Pacer fan I would take Randle + them two picks.

I like Randle. Would give us much needed rebounding too.

ButtersSuki

Could all be bullsh*t, but if it's true it's an interesting development. Wonder who the players ar (if it's true)?


Report: Cavaliers players started telling Jimmy Butler to stay away from Cleveland

By Kurt HelinJun 21, 2017, 12:18 PM EDT

First came the reports that LeBron James and other Cavaliers players were calling Jimmy Butler to recruit him, and he wanted to push his way to Chicago.

Then came the report Butler told the Cavaliers he wants to stay in Chicago.

What changed? Did Butler remember his love of deep dish pizzas and Millennium Park and have a change of heart?

No, more likely is that Cavaliers players actually called him up and said “you don’t want to come here right now,” reports Joe Crowly at the Chicago Sun-Times.

According to a Cleveland source close to the situation, several of the Cavaliers who had been prodding Butler to push for a trade from the Bulls the last five days were now warning him to stay away from a suddenly volatile situation.

That change? Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert decided to let go of GM David Griffin. It was a stupid move on multiple levels, primarily that Griffin had done an amazing job in the role, and that LeBron James trusted him and was not happy Griffin was cut loose.

As an aside: Gilbert just gave LeBron a legitimate reason to leave in 2018. LeBron can say Gilbert showed he was not serious about keeping a contender together, he was able to bring one title to Cleveland but Gilbert stands in the way of future ones, and it is time to move on so he can keep chasing greatness and the ghost of Jordan. Outside of Cleveland, fans would look at the incompetence and nod.

Cleveland doesn’t have a GM — and may be about to hire one with no front office experience — heading into a key offseason where they need to revamp their roster to better compete with the Warriors, or risk losing LeBron. Does Butler want to walk into that situation? No.

And it’s the Cavs who are telling him so.

ButtersSuki

It's been a busy 24hours, given how things have started and the relative inactivity of the last two trade deadlines (last summer and All Star break) things are looking like they may well get kray-kray over the next 36-48hours.

COOL!