London Fire and Aftermath RIP

tara73

mikeybrennan wrote: »

he said it on question time

yes, found something now.

Water John

The cladding has an internal core. In the cladding in question that core was PE.
So Clad/PE/ Clad.

mikeybrennan

if the pe cladding and wall insulation are flammable

it's reasonable to guess there are issues with the installation and fire stops which are supposed to close off the vent gap between them in a fire situation,it certainly looked that way

jackofalltrades

Samaris wrote: »

S'true. Very likely that a group of people living in the posh side of Kensington in an estate where the starting price is over a million in the richest borough in the UK are middle of the road or below in terms of financial security.. :P

Making the assumption that they're well-off isn't exactly a huge leap of logic. Making the assumption that yer wan was being a snobby bat doesn't need any confirmation of background, just listening to her comments.

My post wasn't questioning whether they were well off or not.
It was replying specifically to Steddyeddys claim of " there's plenty in their lives that could be viewed as unfair or unearned."
He doesn't know these people, where they've came from or what struggles they've had in their lives.
He's pulling assumptions out of thin air, largely driven by his own prejudices.
But hey there's nothing more ugly than discrimination. :rolleyes:

orangerhyme

mikeybrennan wrote: »

if the pe cladding and wall insulation are flammable

it's reasonable to guess there are issues with the installation and fire stops which are supposed to close off the vent gap between them in a fire situation,it certainly looked that way

If you look at the fluted/ridged columns here, there doesnt appear to be any fire stops between floors. However on the panels around the windows there does appear to be firestops. To me it looks like the fire spread up the columns and then laterally across the panels.

Then if you look at the video below, which is the earliest video from when the fire started, you can see the column is completely in flames, right up the building.
It looks like a "chimney effect" to me. Ive read that flames will jump up to 10 times its height in cavities in search of oxygen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AYUZ5Snxzo&t=17s

orangerhyme

This photo shows similar. If you look at side of the building to the right, you can see the columns were burning and carrying the flames whilst the cladding around the windows remains intact.

deandean

Smart lad Orangerhyme. Spot on.
I'd be interested in finding out which apartment the fire started in. I wonder was it on the side facing us in that photo, 3rd floor up and 3rd window in. It looks well scorched.

Water John

I think it was on the 4th floor, from memory.

GM228

And so it begins (no doubt the first of many).

161 homes in an apartment in Chalcots, Camden currently being evacuated due to fire concerns over cladding.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40389148?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

tara73

GM228 wrote: »

And so it begins (no doubt the first of many).

161 homes in an apartment in Chalcots, Camden currently being evacuated due to fire concerns over cladding.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40389148?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Relieved they're doing it. Didn't thought they will.

GM228

800 homes in 5 tower blocks now being evacuated.

Harry Palmr

This is going to be a bit of a challenge even for a place the size of London given the immediacy of it all.

tara73

they also suspect the material on schools, hospitals, universities... imagine evacuating hospitals... good lord, great times in the United Kingdom...I just ask myself why this loonheads in doing regulations, councils and building industry allowed this sh** of a cladding to be used. I mean, it's not that it wasn't known that it's that flammable. just crazy and they should all go to jail for manslaughter.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/camden-tower-block-evacuated-grenfell-fire-raises-cladding-concerns/

GM228

tara73 wrote: »

they also suspect the material on schools, hospitals, universities... imagine evacuating hospitals... good lord, great times in the United Kingdom...I just ask myself why this loonheads in doing regulations, councils and building industry allowed this sh** of a cladding to be used. I mean, it's not that it wasn't known that it's that flammable. just crazy and they should all go to jail for manslaughter.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/camden-tower-block-evacuated-grenfell-fire-raises-cladding-concerns/

And I wonder is there concerns/checks outside the UK?

Would Ireland have any buildings with cladding?

Also I wonder what the "particular set of circumstances on this estate that make this [evacuation] necessary" are?

mikeybrennan

GM228 wrote: »

And I wonder is there concerns/checks outside the UK?

Would Ireland have any buildings with cladding?

Also I wonder what the "particular set of circumstances on this estate that make this [evacuation] necessary" are?

Dubai ,Qatar is riddled with the stuff on high rises

Lack of building regulations

tara73

I wonder, is this cladding a UK product?

mikeybrennan

tara73 wrote: »

I wonder, is this cladding a UK product?

Edit : Arconic US company

i think

tara73

mikeybrennan wrote: »

Edit : Arconic US company

i think

yes, thanks, US

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arconic

mikeybrennan

Begs the question

If this can slip through the net

What other public safety scandal is lurking out there

prinzeugen

GM228 wrote: »

And I wonder is there concerns/checks outside the UK?

Would Ireland have any buildings with cladding?

Also I wonder what the "particular set of circumstances on this estate that make this [evacuation] necessary" are?

Of course there are buildings in Ireland with it. Almost all the boom time apartments and office blocks are clad (even if they look brick, its cladding).

How much is dangerous I don't know but I would bet my wages some of it is lethal.

The "circumstances" I believe are the proximity of the blocks to each other. If one goes up, any burning material that comes off could ignite another block if the wind is blowing the right way.

prinzeugen

mikeybrennan wrote: »

Begs the question

If this can slip through the net

What other public safety scandal is lurking out there

I know certain trains in the UK have had questions asked about their ability to survive a major collision.

Thankfully one has not happened yet.

I was reading about gas pipes in the blocks also.

I was under the impression that tower blocks in the UK had to be all electric after Ronan Point.

Samaris

prinzeugen wrote: »

I know certain trains in the UK have had questions asked about their ability to survive a major collision.

Thankfully one has not happened yet.

I was reading about gas pipes in the blocks also.

I was under the impression that tower blocks in the UK had to be all electric after Ronan Point.

I don't -think- that's the case; Ronan Point was a design flaw rather than a gas/electric issue, wasn't it? I didn't see anything on the Ronan Point wiki about it when it was linked to Grenfell in terms of how the building was constructed for strength.

That bit worked, at least. The tower was built to last in terms of standing as a big concrete block and even given the heat of the fire, it appears to be structurally sound.

That 84 other towers with the cladding seems to have been a very low estimate (when it was announced, other councils were being asked for how many they had in their boroughs). I think the last number I heard was over 600 in England alone. ffs. Although the story keeps changing as to whether it is legal or illegal or illegal over a certain height or what.

Richard Hillman

GM228 wrote: »

And I wonder is there concerns/checks outside the UK?

Would Ireland have any buildings with cladding?

Also I wonder what the "particular set of circumstances on this estate that make this [evacuation] necessary" are?

The Burlington Hotel has cladding over the old structure. I reckon they would be adequate for fire exits and the like though.

Samaris

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The Burlington Hotel has cladding over the old structure. I reckon they would be adequate for fire exits and the like though.

It's less urgent if the place is at least not failing on all other points like Grenfell was. Although I'd say even if it's perfectly compliant in all other ways, it'll be stripped of the cladding even so. People are going to be very nervous of fires in high rises and the whole cladding thing, especially as we've all become experts in cladding since last week! (I know I couldn't have named a single variety of cladding, and I'd have been shaky on what exactly it was before the fire happened)

Still though, that stuff almost negates the rest of the fire safety measures when it can spread a fire all over a building in minutes (the French case with the similar stuff especially, it's been linked in here a couple of times).

As a side-thing, it really does need to be stripped though - London can expect more in the way of heatwaves and strong local heating effects. The last thing the city needs is highly flammable buildings in conditions where everything is tinder dry. We really need to be taking this sort of thing into account with regulations as much as we're now taking sea level rise into account when planning buildings near the coast or near tidal estuaries.

orangerhyme

If you look at our regulations here :http://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/building-standards/tgd-part-b-fire-safety/technical-guidance-document-b-fire-safety-20
This type of cladding is perfectly legal. Our regs seem similar to the English ones although less ambiguous.
It looks like we copied the UK ones and simplified them a little.

Class B materials are allowed in cladding in buildings above and below 18m in height. So Reynobond PE is perfectly legal here!
Id hope someone in the Dept of Housing is changing the regulations as we speak.

bridster007

http://www.safelincs.ie/fire-evacuation-hoods/

Something like these should a requirement for high towers.
Say six in each apartment.
15 mins gives them a reasonable chance to get out.

silverharp

I think they were mad to evacuate everyone. They could easily have assigned professionals to monitor each building

tara73

silverharp wrote: »

I think they were mad to evacuate everyone. They could easily have assigned professionals to monitor each building

and what would that bring? if you look at Grenfell Tower, the flames spread so quickly to the upper floors, litterally in seconds. If you put firefighters and their relevant equipment on every affectetd Tower, it might work, but just a person to monitor? Don't think so.

tara73

I also wonder, how the fire brigade managed to put out the flames in the upper floors, like the 20th-24th in the end? Or did the fire just run out of substance to burn in the morning of the 15th?

I ask myself this because it didn't seem the fire brigade had equipment which is high enough to bring them at the hight of a 24th floor, but might be wrong. Anybody knows?

Peregrinus

As I understand it, you're right. Vehicle-based hoses, etc, can only deliver water to a certain height, and it's welll below 24 floors.

Modern high-rise buildings have "dry risers" - water pipes with an inlet at ground level, outside the building, which travel up the building and have outlets inside the building on every floor. In normal conditions, they're empty (hence the name). When there's a fire, the fire brigade can hook up a (mobile) tank of water at the inlet, and pump it up. Firemen on any floor inside the building can connect a hose to the outlet, and away they go.

The result of all this is that firefighters can deliver water to any floor, provide its safe for them to enter the building and ascend to that floor. In a building that's on fire on many floors that's not much help, oviously, since its not safe for the firefighters to go above the lowest burning floor (and often not safe to go even that far). In that circumstance you just try to contain the fire in the building and wait for it to burn itself out.