land becomes available, should I?

massey265

Looking for some advice, so there has come land available which I had notions on, not far from home Farm, around 8 to 9 miles away, it's good hill grazing land with ten acres off silage ground, the problem is they are in glas 3 and this silage ground has to be saved, it's too much for my needs, second problem is its only allowed for sheep grazing, I would rather it for cattle.. I would like to have it but with it being tied in glas for five years it doesn't suit my needs but don't want to miss out on it as I've first refusal on it and might not again.

AineM2013

Yes I think you should. Five years is not all that long and I would look at it as an investment in your future. Good Luck

Kristopherus

Better regret you did,than you did'nt.

lakill Farm

can you sub lease it out for the 5 years at the consent of the owner

then when its out of the scheme its yours to do as you like

Mooooo

are you talking renting it or buying it?

croot

Glas3 is only starting. You could pull out before payment

massey265

No he won't lease the entitlements so that would also put me off, can he change it to graze cattle on his glas plan?

It would be to rent moo,

blue5000

Sounds a bit too complicated to me. Why would you take it on, comply with GLAS and still have to drive 8-10 miles to it?

_Brian

Would I be shot at mantioning "return on investment" ?

I mentioned that before and was told that ROI on land never makes sense, yet it will be bought by someone !

ganmo

what would happen if you were already in glas then bought more glas land?
would you receive both payments or would the max payment still apply?

anyway back to ops issue, by the sounds of it you wouldn't be buying to expand a current enterprise but start a sheep one which ya don't sound too enthusiastic about

zetor 4911

massey265 wrote: »

Looking for some advice, so there has come land available which I had notions on, not far from home Farm, around 8 to 9 miles away, it's good hill grazing land with ten acres off silage ground, the problem is they are in glas 3 and this silage ground has to be saved, it's too much for my needs, second problem is its only allowed for sheep grazing, I would rather it for cattle.. I would like to have it but with it being tied in glas for five years it doesn't suit my needs but don't want to miss out on it as I've first refusal on it and might not again.

Are you planning taking over the GLAS contract if so that is not allowed. Can't change the GLAS action at this stage.

J.O. Farmer

zetor 4911 wrote: »

Are you planning taking over the GLAS contract if so that is not allowed. Can't change the GLAS action at this stage.

It sounds like the OP would be taking over the work of the GLAS contract but not the payment and paying rent for the privilege.

I really don't see why the OP would do it. It's an 8-10 mile drive to land with more restrictions than normal on land and it seems restrictions that don't suit the op. 5 years is a long time on leased land. Even if there's a 10 year lease half it will be spent in GLAS for someone else.

Bass Reeves

massey265 wrote: »

No he won't lease the entitlements so that would also put me off, can he change it to graze cattle on his glas plan?

It would be to rent moo,

I am trying to get the gist of this. Owner is holding onto the entitlements (maybe claiming them) it is in GLAS and he has put the silage ground into the low input meadow so it cannot be cut until July and then has to be saved for hay or turned 2-3 times. Is he holding onto the GLAS payment as well and the ANC payment????

And then he wants you to rent it or at least farm it to the GLAS specifications so he can claim the payments.

If my assumptions are correct I would not touch it with a twenty foot barge pole. He will do you no favours in 5 years time either.

50HX

agree with bass above

land that far away even if it top class stuff you have to have full control of it for what you suits your needs

that owner is trying to rub lard onto a pigs arse getting you to take with them conditions and he getting bps anc & glas

you have 1st refusal now but 5 years is a long time in one way and you might be the only one standing come then

i'd let it slide and hold tough

massey265

Yeah great advise there, yous are spot on he is holding on to payments and it being in glas only makes it even more troublesome, I wouldn't be pushed on the hassle off putting sheep on it either, I know rent wouldn't be massive but it's hard to make a bob even when you get payments.

zetor 4911

My understanding now is that the owner is going to declare the land on his BPS application draw his entitlements and GLAS but lease the land to Massey 265. Does he not know that by declaring the land on his BPS he is declaring that he is farming it he can't then turn around and lease it to someone else, this would be a false declaration which carry severe penalties. As per the advice given by other under no circumstances should anyone touch that land.

Bass Reeves

massey265 wrote: »

Yeah great advise there, yous are spot on he is holding on to payments and it being in glas only makes it even more troublesome, I wouldn't be pushed on the hassle off putting sheep on it either, I know rent wouldn't be massive but it's hard to make a bob even when you get payments.

TBH lads that rent land in such circumstances are f@@king it up for everyone. At a guess he is related to you but it is only a guess. He was cute enough to put it into GLAS and put the hay/silage ground into traditional meadow to maximize payments. I bet he has 5HA of low input grassland as well.

You would be a busy fool for the five years and when it came he do the same again if he can find a victim or look for a good lease payment. Let him off with it. At a guess he has 10+K in payments and wants you to fork out another 40+/acre. He be sitting at home on the bones of 300/week and maybe drawing the OAP as well.

longgonesilver

I would differ from the others slightly and say that maybe you should take it.

The question will then be how much will he give you to manage the land to these exacting standards so he can claim his payments.:D

massey265

Notting gets past you bass, yous are saying everything that was making me questioning it, am a busy enough fool with out adding more, it's just a few months ago I lost my silage ground to which I guess is glas related to, and this just came along at the right time but it just doesn't make sense at the end off the day.

bogman_bass

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

50HX

bogman_bass wrote: »

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

know plenty that do it for silage, a good trailer and you'd bring 2 weeks of feed in bales from there in 2hours

Who2

bogman_bass wrote: »

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

i know lads taking ground 2-3 hrs away. Now in fairness some would be known for what they are like but there's a couple of genuine lads taking farms that distance away. Personally i think its crazy but there's plenty at it.

Bass Reeves

bogman_bass wrote: »

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

The place I bought is about 10 miles maybe even a tad further from my house. I have it ten years ago and we intended to move there. It hasn;t got any nearer;)

blue5000

massey265 wrote: »

Notting gets past you bass, yous are saying everything that was making me questioning it, am a busy enough fool with out adding more, it's just a few months ago I lost my silage ground to which I guess is glas related to, and this just came along at the right time but it just doesn't make sense at the end off the day.

Is a partnership an option?

massey265

blue5000 wrote:

Is a partnership an option?

Not sure that would work, he only keeping the number off sheep for payments how would that be fair on me?

Bass Reeves

blue5000 wrote: »

Is a partnership an option?

When you are dealing with these type of guyes partnership is never an option. He will want all the payments plus a rental or its equivlent.

Username John

zetor 4911 wrote: »

My understanding now is that the owner is going to declare the land on his BPS application draw his entitlements and GLAS but lease the land to Massey 265. Does he not know that by declaring the land on his BPS he is declaring that he is farming it he can't then turn around and lease it to someone else, this would be a false declaration which carry severe penalties. As per the advice given by other under no circumstances should anyone touch that land.

Can you let land on an 11 month lease and still claim BPS on it?

I know this is different to what Massey might be getting into, as that sounds more like a long term lease...

Just wondering is all...

J.O. Farmer

Username John wrote: »

Can you let land on an 11 month lease and still claim BPS on it?

I know this is different to what Massey might be getting into, as that sounds more like a long term lease...

Just wondering is all...

I'd say it's being done however I think when you submit your bps payment application that you are declaring that you have use of the land for the year and are actively farming it.
I don't see how either of those conditions can apply if it's leased out to someone else.

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote:

When you are dealing with these type of guyes partnership is never an option. He will want all the payments plus a rental or its equivlent.

I can never understand why lads take land under these type of stipulations. If more lads refused to take land without the entitlements they would have nowhere else to go.

I tried for two pieces of ground this spring and both wanted to keep the entitlements. Even when I offered to to give half the value of the entitlements in the rent they still weren't happy so I left them to it.

kowtow

tractorporn wrote:

I tried for two pieces of ground this spring and both wanted to keep the entitlements. Even when I offered to to give half the value of the entitlements in the rent they still weren't happy so I left them to it.

I've heard of similar arrangements. Always assumed the entitlement value was paid as a lease fee and the entitlement taken on by the tenant?

Do people seriously attempt any other way? Surely it would be easy to pick up at inspections etc. ?

alps

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I'd say it's being done however I think when you submit your bps payment application that you are declaring that you have use of the land for the year and are actively farming it.
I don't see how either of those conditions can apply if it's leased out to someone else.

As far as I'm aware, you declare that you will be farming the land for a period that includes the 31st if May...

That's grey, as it could mean just that day, but others take it to mean the period leading up to the 31st of May, or the period from 31st of May onwards...and leases do take place either side of this date...

Bass Reeves

kowtow wrote: »

I've heard of similar arrangements. Always assumed the entitlement value was paid as a lease fee and the entitlement taken on by the tenant?

Do people seriously attempt any other way? Surely it would be easy to pick up at inspections etc. ?

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

kowtow

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

Bass Reeves

kowtow wrote: »

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

Lots of lads with low stocking numbers import a large amount of slurry, know of one or two that went over the limit.

kerry cow

Total agree with tractorporn, we as the working man need to stop taking land the way we do .
Having to farm and give back 100% of the value to the land owner is mad .It was there to support the producer .
I see recently the list , county by county of the biggest payments . I see from people I know on the list drawing in many cases 150k and more for corn and bullock they no longer farm .It can't be right to fork out money to these people when the guy who is trying to work new land get a dig in the nots.

Keepgrowing

bogman_bass wrote: »

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

30k in my case

Waffletraktor

Keepgrowing wrote: »

30k in my case

Do either of you travel to it daily or is it farmed under your umbrella so to speak?

pedigree 6

Keepgrowing wrote: »

30k in my case

There's a poster who doesn't need a sfp.;)

Edit: I just copped that you meant 30km not 30k Euro.
Or maybe not. Still confused.

J.O. Farmer

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Do either of you travel to it daily or is it farmed under your umbrella so to speak?

It must be a lovely part of the country with that big of an umbrella 😜.

Waffletraktor

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

It must be a lovely part of the country with that big of an umbrella 😜.

Plenty do the contract farming over here on the finance never-never, just need to take your bank man for a days blasting tame partridge or pheasant

Mooooo

Had land rented for heifers and quota that was 30 km away but with traffic would take 3/4 of an hour to get there. Back in the day dad bought ground in Laois for quota

The part time boy

kowtow wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

I don't understand this. Why would be import the slurry on paper ?

And how does the "database " know how many bailes his making/ selling ?

Bass Reeves

The part time boy wrote: »

I don't understand this. Why would be import the slurry on paper ?

And how does the "database " know how many bailes his making/ selling ?

For the farmer taking the land but not putting it in his area aid form it causes a nitrates issue and he has to either export slurry or get a derogation. Easiest way around this is for owner to import slurry from unofficial renter. Now renter may be using the slurry to grow silage on owners land. Often rent goes down as silage.

However department is becoming more active in look at import/export of slurry. A few lads had long distance hauls. Some importing of slurry is on paper only.

kowtow

Bass Reeves wrote: »

For the farmer taking the land but not putting it in his area aid form it causes a nitrates issue and he has to either export slurry or get a derogation. Easiest way around this is for owner to import slurry from unofficial renter. Now renter may be using the slurry to grow silage on owners land. Often rent goes down as silage.

However department is becoming more active in look at import/export of slurry. A few lads had long distance hauls. Some importing of slurry is on paper only.

Exactly. And if - as I think the suggestion is - there is a long term lease involved with the associated tax relief from the landlord then there is no way at all - in my mind - the landlord can retain and claim on the entitlements. He is free to lease them to the renter, for whatever price they can agree, which might be the whole value on an annual basis but anything else to my mind amounts to a very easily discover-able fraud.

If it is a conacre situation where the renter takes land and exports slurry back to it then I don't see a problem, the renter is in effect buying annual crops from the landlord which he harvests himself whether by grazing or as silage. I am not sure where that fits in with the BPS arrangements, but from a logistical point of view he would not have the maps.

The part time boy

Ya I agree anyone leasing lands should not be claiming bps . I am claiming bps and selling two cuts of sillage . I graze it . I not let any cattle in the place if I am claiming on it . I don't think I want to import any slurry either

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

Ya I agree anyone leasing lands should not be claiming bps . I am claiming bps and selling two cuts of sillage . I graze it . I not let any cattle in the place if I am claiming on it . I don't think I want to import any slurry either

No offence Part Time - but what's the difference between selling two cuts of silage and letting a lad graze the place from 1st March to middle August?

It's just selling / removing grass by another method...

The part time boy

The difference is two fold.

First one I may be wrong on this . But as I am claiming off the land I am not bringing cattle into the land that's not in my herd number as that would clearly brake a rule you could easily get caught . What I am doing is selling a produce of the land . I can't see any rule I am braking .

The 2nd difference is a mind set that I will accept may be silly . But as I only sell 2 cuts and still graze the after grass in the latter part of the year I can kid my self that I am still farming all my land when i check cattle in the sillage fields . When I pulled the plug on cows I did not want to long term lease or even con acre

The long term plan would be to find something that i will able to farm the full farm my self part time.

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

The difference is two fold.

First one I may be wrong on this . But as I am claiming off the land I am not bringing cattle into the land that's not in my herd number as that would clearly brake a rule you could easily get caught . What I am doing is selling a produce of the land . I can't see any rule I am braking .

The 2nd difference is a mind set that I will accept may be silly . But as I only sell 2 cuts and still graze the after grass in the latter part of the year I can kid my self that I am still farming all my land when i check cattle in the sillage fields . When I pulled the plug on cows I did not want to long term lease or even con acre

The long term plan would be to find something that i will able to farm the full farm my self part time.

I wouldn't be too well up on the herd number side of things...

I didn't think taking animals in for grazing meant that you lost your SFP?
What about the guys that do B&B for the winter - from a pure 'submitting maps' would this not be the same thing - albeit the transfer is done at a different time of year?

On the second point, I get you

ganmo

Username John wrote: »

No offence Part Time - but what's the difference between selling two cuts of silage and letting a lad graze the place from 1st March to middle August?

It's just selling / removing grass by another method...

In fairness part time is managing it for the full year, whoever buys the silage is only in the field for a few days

The part time boy

You not be allowed have cattle on your land if there not in your herd number . Either full tranfer or on a temporary b and b. To be honest this something that I not be Intrested in .

massey265

So if I were to just take on the ten acres for silage and grazing on same for the rest off the year. What would be a fair rent for the year?