Code Institute

conspiracycat

Hi guys,

Im interested in beginning a career in software development.
I have been doing some free online courses eg on Udacity and would like to get somethig more solid to put on my CV.
I found a course offered by the Code Institute in Dublin.
Wondering if anyone here has heard of it or better yet done the course themself?
Or if someone could take a look at the syllabus and let me know if its any good or not!

Syllabus attached.

Thanks

PrzemoF

A side advice: start building portfolio of projects _right now_ in the open source software world. Use github or something similar.

Pelvis

A 12 week course offering a "Diploma" doesn't seem like it would be worth the paper it's written on being honest. Most job adverts I see look for a degree at a minimum.

Am I missing something or does this 3 month course cost almost €9k??? That's absolute madness!!

https://www.codeinstitute.net/classroom/

14ned

conspiracycat wrote: »

Hi guys,

Im interested in beginning a career in software development.
I have been doing some free online courses eg on Udacity and would like to get somethig more solid to put on my CV.
I found a course offered by the Code Institute in Dublin.
Wondering if anyone here has heard of it or better yet done the course themself?
Or if someone could take a look at the syllabus and let me know if its any good or not!

A quick Google search yields this feedback on that course: https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/4f4ax6/does_anyone_know_if_the_code_institute_in_dublin/?st=j3vip4ef&sh=231711bb

Ignoring the feedback from those who don't believe that a 12 week course costing nine grand can be worth anything, it does appear that if you get a good grade there are some low paying entry level jobs which become available to you if you aren't choosy.

I would emphasise that getting a good grade in such a short, high intensity course will be hard. Mental exhaustion from information overload will set in early. I would also point out that paying the same fees as a year long full time "IT skills conversion course" Masters for a worthless Level 6 diploma makes no financial sense. I would also point out that the skills bootcamped have little to no lasting value because you are being taught very specific technologies instead of the algorithmic theory which underpins all software, and moreover, that course is exclusively aimed at web programming, and there are a ton of web programmers already on the market, it's saturated. If the bootcamp were in technologies with severe shortages where employment at high pay was guaranteed, the course would make much more sense.

Still, if you have €10k burning a hole in your pocket, you are a very hard worker and you want a rapid career change, it may make sense for you.

Niall

Molly

These are very much in vogue over here and have been for the past two or three years. I'm yet to encounter a 'graduate' and my suspicion is that only certain industries are hiring from these courses, but I also don't reside on the west coast where most of these courses take place. They seem to place a high amount of value on implementing problems with specific languages without a lot of theory so it's doubtful you'll be very well versed in big O notation, but I imagine the people that they require the skillset from will be hired from elsewhere.

The curriculum in this course seems pretty bad, one of my former colleagues in Ireland attended one of the more prestigious bootcamps in San Francisco and managed to get a job in Ireland quite easily after, but he also had 3 years prior experience in software, an undergraduate degree in computing and a masters in software so I'm not sure if how much the boot camp really benefitted him. I would say these will get you a grunt job on the west coast of America (if you are eligible to work there), but I don't see a lot of companies in Ireland hiring from these, especially risk averse multinationals.

Edit; basically I'm in agreement with the previous poster

DubPerryman

conspiracycat wrote: »

I found a course offered by the Code Institute in Dublin.
Wondering if anyone here has heard of it or better yet done the course themself?

Bootcamps are more en vogue in the US. Course Report does a good piece on the outcomes you would expect to see from completing a coding bootcamp.

https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2016-coding-bootcamp-job-placement-demographics-report


A good site for comparing bootcamps is SwithUp.org - seems like Code Institute has a good reputation.

https://www.switchup.org/bootcamps/code-institute

protoskull

I did this course last year, finishing in December having no previous CS experience or skills. I got a junior dev job at 30k in January, so it can and does happen. Depends on how much you put in really. 12 weeks doesn't seem like a lot (it isn't) but you pack a lot of learning into 9-5 + further study/practice at home.

It's not going to be for everyone (I recommend you try some free courses first from SoloLearn or similar, just to see if you are a good fit for the problem-solving and logical nature of programming) but for me it was perfect. You might be the type of person who can learn just as much on their own reading tutorials but the formal, guided learning worked best for me.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the comments about general algorithmic theory and understanding being more valuable than specific technologies. In the real world, projects aren't built with theory. I can understand people who spent 4 years doing a Comp Sci degree being defensive about their skillset, who wouldn't be? But employers just want you to build practical stuff that works, they don't care about theory, simple as that. You come out of CI with at least 3 practical projects under your belt that you can show to employers and say "Here's some stuff I built" and that's worth more to them than "I know a lot of theory about this stuff", in my experience at least.

There's never a day goes by in work that I don't have to learn about something new anyway, so it's not like you'll learn Python and Javascript and then be completely lost when something new comes along. In fact, If you learned something practical 4 years ago at Uni, I'd argue that's even more out of date than anything else that's currently being used, today, in workplaces all over the place. How long does it take a University to change its curriculum depending on new technologies? A lot longer than it takes somewhere like CI where it's already significantly different (read, more up to date) than when I did it a few months ago.

Like everything else in life, if you put the effort in, you'll get the rewards and it would only be a waste of your time and money if you let it be.

Pelvis

Can we get an IP check in isle 4 please? IP check in isle 4!

14ned

protoskull wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the comments about general algorithmic theory and understanding being more valuable than specific technologies. In the real world, projects aren't built with theory. I can understand people who spent 4 years doing a Comp Sci degree being defensive about their skillset, who wouldn't be? But employers just want you to build practical stuff that works, they don't care about theory, simple as that. You come out of CI with at least 3 practical projects under your belt that you can show to employers and say "Here's some stuff I built" and that's worth more to them than "I know a lot of theory about this stuff", in my experience at least.

I agree that emerging with a decent work portfolio to show employers is excellent, and every compsci degree and masters course in this country should be doing just that in addition to extended work placement. We spend too much time doing unrealistic toy software at universities, it gives graduates all sorts of wrong and unrealistic notions.

I also agree that too many employers don't care about theory. But they are usually the kind of employer who doesn't care much about long term viability of their code base, they just want something fast which they can pass off to customers for cash.

Regarding general algorithmic theory, Google and the other multinationals overegg interviewing on general algorithms no doubt, there is a certain search engine very good for finding algorithms before you design so you really don't need to know them off by heart like their interviews require. But every top end engineer I know knows their algorithms very well. Any software which even remotely reaches towards state-of-the-art was designed and written by engineers extremely well versed in algorithms. Indeed, what makes an engineer at the very top of their field is their deep understanding of the interplay of algorithmic tradeoffs on a wide variety of platforms and hardware. A four year degree certainly won't get you there, you need at least ten years, but it's a reasonable grounding in the basics, and I think it'll stand to your long term career in ways you only appreciate when you're into your third decade in the industry and later.

Finally, lacking an honours degree in compsci I think still will penalise you when changing jobs. HR likes to tick boxes during their filtering. Even if the OP's course gets you into employment, I'd take an OU part time comspci degree or something equivalent anyway. When this tech bubble bursts, like the last bubble the first people to be fired will be those without compsci degrees, they're the easiest for HR to draw lists against.

Niall

Hollister11

OP I'm going to be honest. I don't know if bootcamps are good or not, people do get jobs, and once you get the experience you will learn more than you would studying. Before you drop 9K and commit 12 weeks of your life, I'm going to provide you some links to do some research.

Courses (€10 for today and tomorrow, usually 175 - 200)

The Web Developer Bootcamp

The Ultimate mySQL Bootcamp go from SQL Beginner to Expert

These course are by Colt Steele, he's a fantastic instructor. Search the course name, the instructor name followed by Reddit on google and you will get awesome reviews.

Also follow this youtubers

Aaron in Beta
Chris Sean
Michael Thomas
Coding Phase

Molly

Wrote lots, deleted it as it turns out i'm in agreement with ned again...

In the real world, projects aren't built with theory.

I don't think I can agree with that.

protoskull

14ned wrote: »

<snip>

Niall

All good points. Not sure how old OP is or how many responsibilities OP has but the cost of 4 years at uni for my family just wasn't an option. In 12 weeks I got enough to get started in a great job, earning while paying back the loan I had to take for the bootcamp, and I have no doubt there will be plenty grads out there who would be envious of that.

The theory part will have to come as I become more experienced and do more learning off my own back.

dgal321

conspiracycat wrote: »

Hi guys,

Im interested in beginning a career in software development.
I have been doing some free online courses eg on Udacity and would like to get somethig more solid to put on my CV.
I found a course offered by the Code Institute in Dublin.
Wondering if anyone here has heard of it or better yet done the course themself?
Or if someone could take a look at the syllabus and let me know if its any good or not!

Syllabus attached.

Thanks

I just finished the Code Institute bootcamp and would recommend it if:
(a) coding and problem solving is something you really enjoy
(b) you genuinely want to pursue a career in coding and can see yourself doing this for at least the next few years
(c) you're willing to put the effort in (as it's a big time and effort commitment as well as a financial investment)

For me, the bootcamp was a really great fit as the focus was on building your portfolio - which really is just as important if not more important than your CV when it comes to the job hunt. Your projects are tangible outputs and it's a big benefit being able to show employers what you can do (as opposed to just talk about it) in interviews. And whilst I appreciate it's a little out of the ordinary to think that after completing a bootcamp you can work as a junior developer, it definitely is possible. Past graduates that I know now have roles in Accenture, Intercom, Phorest and Transpoco - which is reassuring given that I'm now job hunting.

The course covers specific technologies - and this is deliberate. Code Institute work with employers in the market to understand which skills are in demand and tailor the course content so that students have the best chance of gaining employment. Whilst I agree that knowing the theory is helpful, for me the priority was getting to grips with the skills I need to be employable now and then to continue to learn and develop on-the-job. Others may prefer or have the time to do this in a 4 year/ 2 year degree or masters - but for me the 12 week bootcamp was the better fit.

I also weighed up the financial pros and cons beforehand and the bootcamp seemed to be the better investment for me e.g. the cost involved in the bootcamp (upfront fee + living expenses for 12 weeks) vs. degree/ masters (university fee + living expenses for 2-4 years). The bootcamp also appealed to me as it is likely to get me back into employment earlier than a degree - and as long as I continue to develop my skills and gain experience on the job I'll be able to move up the payscale longer term.

Appreciate that there is quite a bit to consider when choosing the right path/ course for you - so hope this has been of help!

Tuthmoses

I've recently completed the course and in fact I felt it was very good and very much worthwhile. The cost is in fact around €4K if you do it in your own time from home (this is what I did and over the span of 6 Months). It is very comprehensive and provides a great overall introduction to coding and is carefully and deliberately geared to finding employment afterwards. In fact I am pleased to say I have recently had two job offers and it is a complete career change for me. It covers the Full Stack (Front End and Back End) and includes everything from HTML, CSS, JavaScript to APIs to Python, MongoDB, SQL and everything in between. You have to appreciate it is a bootcamp and if you do it in class you are cramming a lot in in the 3 Months and it is challenging. I have found myself going over the bits I found more challenging and I am continuing my learning by practicing JavaScript every day for example. It did open my eyes to a number of technologies and the fact that actually yes I can do it and it is very interesting to learn. It has made me want to learn more and opened up a whole new world to me!

14ned

Tuthmoses wrote: »

It covers the Full Stack (Front End and Back End) and includes everything from HTML, CSS, JavaScript to APIs to Python, MongoDB, SQL and everything in between.

Correction: It covers the Full Web Stack. There is a lot more than just the above to a Full Stack Developer e.g. being able to write a Linux kernel device driver from scratch in order get that web service response time down. Understanding zero copy i/o so you can feed 40Gbit ethernet from a single CPU. Writing native experience apps for your web service on both Android and iOS. Compiling C++ into Javascript and WebGL for maximum compute performance using the client's GPU to run shader compute on the client browser. That sort of thing.

Niall

Graham

I'm probably just old and cynical but for some reason I have visions of hand-picked CIers being asked to respond.

What's that proverb; beware one-hit wonders singing praises.

The types of responses we're seeing would make me more wary if anything.

Buford T Justice

protoskull wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the comments about general algorithmic theory and understanding being more valuable than specific technologies. In the real world, projects aren't built with theory.

Algorithmic theory is the basis for being able to develop in any language as opposed to be tied to a specific one that's part of a 12 week curriculum. They're teaching python using the Django framework which would again tie you into a certain tech.

Its also the difference between being able to write maintainable re-usable code and some tripe that's being hacked together to make ti work

Just my opinion

PrzemoF

Pelvis wrote: »

Can we get an IP check in isle 4 please? IP check in isle 4!

A lot of newbies with single post for a thread with a 10k € in the background...

srsly78

Course looks like a scam just because of those one post wonders.

Why the fsck would anyone pay 9 grand when you can just learn it at your own pace online for free?

And lol they don't teach theory! Yeah why bother with irelevant stuff like list vs dictionary right? Any CV with this course on it goes in bin.

Graham

srsly78 wrote: »

Why the fsck would anyone pay 9 grand when you can just learn it at your own pace online for free?

Without commenting on the price, it does suit some peoples to learn in a more structured/supported environment.

14ned

Graham wrote: »

Without commenting on the price, it does suit some peoples to learn in a more structured/supported environment.

To put that price in context, for only slightly more money you can become a chartered accountant using weekend-only study at classes in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Belfast: http://charteredcareers.ie/course-info/

Starting salary after you've accumulated your minimum experience is approx. €50k nationwide, €60k+ in Dublin. Takes minimum four years, but that's a good bit more than a software developer with four years experience + four year degree would earn.

I'm personally not keen on expensive, intensive training courses. They are bad value for money. I attend two week-long C++ conferences a year and I'm exhausted by the third day, let alone a week in. The only reason I attend is that I present, so I attend for free. If I were paying, it wouldn't be worth the money to me.

Niall

Graham

14ned wrote: »

I'm personally not keen on expensive, intensive training courses. They are bad value for money. I attend two week-long C++ conferences a year and I'm exhausted by the third day, let alone a week in. The only reason I attend is that I present, so I attend for free. If I were paying, it wouldn't be worth the money to me.

Different strokes for different folks.

Even though I'm quite happy to self-study, twice in my career I've paid more than the cost of the CI bootcamp for 10 day training courses. Both times it's jet-propelled me into a slightly different area of specialisation.

Not entirely comparable to the course under discussion here but I certainly wouldn't write-off the value of intensive learning.

The biggest put-off (for me) for CI is the unfaltering glowing feedback. No matter how rigorous their selection process, it stands to reason that there will be a few people that just don't work out and leave unhappy.

The absence of ANY negative feedback could easily make someone think a certain amount of 'encouragement' is in place. It's like those Amazon feedback results that start with 'I received this product at a discount.....'.

Seeing how any company responds to unhappy customers is as important as seeing the glowing references.

That's not to say CI should immediately rush out and solicit negative feedback, that too would now look unnatural. Natural, good and bad feedback is credible.

mahamageehad

OP have you considered doing the nanodegrees at Udacity, especially if you're already doing the free courses there? I'm signed up to one at the moment because, although I do like free courses and tutorials, I work better in a structured environment. I have an assignment due on Udacity this week for example so it feels more real. The course costs €200 a month but the first week is free (you can get 5 weeks free if you're a college student). So far I've been impressed with the courses (even the free ones to be honest which are much better than some stuff I've paid for on Udemy etc) and I like that it's projects based and that the projects are graded. Takes 6 - 12 months to complete.

The only thing is of course that the "nanodegree" itself is worth nothing, it's not accredited and likely most employers will never have heard of it, but I like the idea of being able to have a portfolio of projects at the end. I also like that you can reach out to a tutor for a private review or Q&A session. Can't say yet how helpful it'll be to career prospects, but 2 weeks ago I didn't even know what Python was, now I'm no problem using Anaconda to create separate environments and booting up a Jupyter notebook server. Just something to consider before you spend that amount, especially coz of the positive feedback from new users in this thread!

pauliebdub

If you were really interested in development, then you should have no problem picking up a few manuals and engaging in self study and work on building a portfolio. 9k is an enormous amount of money to spend on a short course, that wouldn't be widely recognized or hold anywhere near the same weight as a degree. this money could be better spent investing in a degree, DIT have a part time one in IT.

I'm always suspicious of posters with one or two posts who come on here singing it's praises.

Johner

The course is available on Springboard if anyone is unemployed. You don't really have anything to lose by doing it for free!

https://www.springboardcourses.ie/details/5007

conspiracycat

Hi all,

Thank you for your feedback and opinions. Its appreciated!

I was thinking of doing the 48 week part time online mentored course, which costs less at €4500
The reason I looked at this course at all was because it offered a Diploma, something a bit more solid that I could put on my CV as opposed to self taught.
I thought employers would look more favorably on that than, or at least not have them chuck my CV in the bin right away.

The price is something I need to think about and weigh up with other possible options.

Thanks all!

Mr Floyd

Currently doing this course online through springboard. I have mixed feelings.

Pro's

• Concentrates on a certain area - web development front & back
• Learning at my own pace
• Project based
• Emphasis on getting a strong porfolio of projects
• 3 month Placement (hopefully will be positive)
• My mentor is very good (based in Nigeria)

Cons

• Some instructors hard to understand, speak too fast
• Video sound quality awful in parts
• drastic jumps in volume level/humm
• Sound drop offs in some instructional videos
• Screen not zoomed in so cant see the coding happening

While I'm grateful to be doing this course through Springboard I have to emphasize that the quality of the instructional videos is very poor, in one part I can hear the instructors tv or radio playing in the background which is rediculous. If I had anything to do with this course I would have the whole thing completely redone. I watch tutorials on youtube by the likes of Traversy Media, The Net Ninja, Academind and the quality is fantastic. No agenda with Code Institute at all but the quality of the videos is poor. There is no way I would pay 5k for this course for this reason.

the_syco

It mentions "Code Institute is the only university accredited coding bootcamp in Europe", but and thus it's equal to a level 6 diploma, but do any companies see it that way?

Mr Floyd wrote: »

Pro's

• 3 month Placement (hopefully will be positive)

Is this organised by the course, or what? Otherwise, you may end up being free labour for a start-up.

=-=

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/4f4ax6/does_anyone_know_if_the_code_institute_in_dublin/
I agree with the bit at the end from the "mentor"; you may get a foot in the door if you go balls deep into it and study it on your time off, but at the other end of the scale; how long would you last before being burning out, and your head melting?

Mr Floyd

Placement is organised by Code Institute through FIT.ie (fastrack into IT), from what I gather I think its unpaid.

bpmurray

Frankly it sounds wrong. If you already have a degree I'd go for a conversation course - I've hired some great people from those. But I've never heard of this crowd, and the responses make me very uncomfortable indeed.

Mr Floyd

Never heard of a conversation course, did you mean conversion? In my own personal situation I'm coming from a background of working in Localization since 2001 and was enjoying that while always having plans on learning to code at some stage. Not a bad CV as I've worked in Microsoft along the way but the tech industry seems like its gonna a tough one to break into. But there are plenty of great courses by the likes of Wes Bos, Stephen Grider and Brad Traversy to get my skills upgraded as well as this course and build a strong portfolio. Because at the end of the day it really depends on yourself to learn and practice by building things and making mistakes, no matter what course you are doing. Stack overflow is another great resource for help also. No excuses!! Although I will admit, selling myself is something I have to improve.