Pavillions roundabout in Swords

dublinbando

This roundabout is an absolute disgrace, and the people who can't seem to figure out how it even work's should be disqualified from driving!

I drive this roundabout nearly every day and at least once per week I see some tool driving around the outside lane to make the third exit...

That is going from Malahide to the Pavillions exit. I will be driving straight through from the Woodies roundabout and this tool will swing right out in front of me as I'm exiting the roundabout.

I think the roundabout needs to be redesigned to be like the intersection of the long mile road and N7. With the main dual carriage way having a straight through road on the roundabout and traffic lights.

Anyone else have the same opinion??

What could be done to push the council to fix this roundabout?

Stheno

In my opinion it's a mess due to being a mix of two and three lanes merging onto it along with some exits having lights and others none

Arthur Daley

Also has an atrocious dip in it that is no good for your suspension. As you exit this roundabout to go up towards airside. Fingal CC need to fix it.

AmberGold

More accidents than any other roundabout in Ireland apparently.

Would help if the Tools going straight through proceeded with caution and slowed down a bit. It's not a race and given it's so busy can be difficult to navigate.

Dizzyblonde

I was in my daughter's car the other day and the same thing happened - as we went to exit the roundabout some a**hole shot past us in the wrong lane and missed us by inches. If my daughter hadn't slammed on the breaks we'd have been hit really hard, because he was speeding to get past us.
The council need to do something because as the OP said it's a regular occurrence on that roundabout.

Singer

dublinbando wrote: »

This roundabout is an absolute disgrace, and the people who can't seem to figure out how it even work's should be disqualified from driving!

I agree that the roundabout is a pain, but I wouldn't put the blame on the poor drivers using it so much. I live about 300 metres from the bloody thing and I find I need to be super-conscious of the near random movements of vehicles on the roundabout to make it to any exit. I've had a few near scrapes, despite being fairly conservative on it. It's not uncommon to see very dangerous maneuverers being carried out, but the same drivers don't make the same mistakes on better designed roads.

dublinbando

Singer wrote: »

I agree that the roundabout is a pain, but I wouldn't put the blame on the poor drivers using it so much. I live about 300 metres from the bloody thing and I find I need to be super-conscious of the near random movements of vehicles on the roundabout to make it to any exit. I've had a few near scrapes, despite being fairly conservative on it. It's not uncommon to see very dangerous maneuverers being carried out, but the same drivers don't make the same mistakes on better designed roads.

So a driver who uses the outside lane to take the third exit on a roundabout is not in the wrong?

They seem to think the Feltrim exit doesn't exist!

Grolschevik

dublinbando wrote:

So a driver who uses the outside lane to take the third exit on a roundabout is not in the wrong?

dublinbando wrote:

They seem to think the Feltrim exit doesn't exist!

Which are you saying is the third exit? Straight ahead continuing on, or going three-quarters around towards the Pavilions? The slip road back towards the Malahide Road wouldn't count as the first exit, in my mind.

plodder

dublinbando wrote: »

This roundabout is an absolute disgrace, and the people who can't seem to figure out how it even work's should be disqualified from driving!

I drive this roundabout nearly every day and at least once per week I see some tool driving around the outside lane to make the third exit...

That is going from Malahide to the Pavillions exit. I will be driving straight through from the Woodies roundabout and this tool will swing right out in front of me as I'm exiting the roundabout.

I see that all the time. These people are basically just skipping the longer queue in the right lane to get there about 45 seconds sooner. It's annoying.

I think the roundabout needs to be redesigned to be like the intersection of the long mile road and N7. With the main dual carriage way having a straight through road on the roundabout and traffic lights.

Anyone else have the same opinion??

What could be done to push the council to fix this roundabout?

As far as I remember the traffic lights were put in just before the M1 was built as all Dublin Belfast traffic was going through the roundabout. They should have removed the lights after the motorway was opened as they cause more trouble than they are worth. Coming out from Drynam rd. you sometimes have to accelerate hard to get on to it, and then brake hard if the lights are red. It's crazy.

Roundabouts like that (with more than four entrance/exits) need signage telling you what lanes to use. It's not practical with road markings I think.

shesty

It goes from 3 lanes to 2 lanes to 3 lanes to 2 lanes.
And in true Irish style, I don't think the road markings are even continuous around it to indicate lanes, because well - they can't be.
There is actually no safe way to use that roundabout, and I've been using it for years at all times of the week and in all traffic situations. You have to take it slowly, keep your eyes absolutely peeled and make sure you are as clear as possible in your indicating. It's a total road hazard and really needs to be addressed, but I won't be holding my breath.

dublinbando

Grolschevik wrote: »

Which are you saying is the third exit? Straight ahead continuing on, or going three-quarters around towards the Pavilions? The slip road back towards the Malahide Road wouldn't count as the first exit, in my mind.

Coming from Malahide, the first exit is the feltrim exit, second exit is towards airside and third exit is pavillions.

People using the outside lane to go to Pavillions from Malahide while I'm going straight through coming from the woodies roundabout towards Airside will fly out in front of me while I'm exiting the roundabout.

This happens at least once per week.

You've actually just proven my point by completely forgetting the Feltrim exit.

Grolschevik

dublinbando wrote:

You've actually just proven my point by completely forgetting the Feltrim exit.

From Malahide from which direction?

And which is the 'Pavilions roundabout'? The one just outside the Shopping Centre in Swords, or the one out on the dual carriageway?

You mentioned what you call the 'Woodies roundabout'. Are you travelling north to south along the r132? And that's the Lissenhall Roundabout you mean?

Grolschevik

Sorry. I think what you call the 'Woodies roundabout' is the Seatown one, the one after Estuary as you go north to south?

dublinbando

Grolschevik wrote: »

Sorry. I think what you call the 'Woodies roundabout' is the Seatown one, the one after Estuary as you go north to south?

Yeah woodies is the seatown roundabout, so yes north to south.

and I'm talking about people coming onto the Pavillions roundabout from Malahide/waterside and using the outside lane to go to the Pavillions.

Grolschevik

So you're going south and straight through the roundabout continuing south and in the right lane.

They are entering the roundabout from your left in their left lane and going towards the Pavilions.

If so, the issue is that they are entering the roundabout when it isn't clear to do so, as you have right of way and are on the roundabout already.

It's not that they're in the wrong lane, as roundabout discipline doesn't depend on which number exit it is, but rather a 'clock face', left lane before 12 (straight ahead) thing. And in fact, the road markings (visible on Google Maps) allow them to use both lanes for proceeding straight through the roundabout.

So the issue isn't that they're in the wrong lane, it's that they're chancing their arm while you have right of way, and possibly incorrectly assuming that, because you're in the right lane, that you'll be heading round towards the Pavilions too.

pinkypinky

Afaik, if you're are exiting on 1st or 2nd exit, you use the left lane, and for all subsequent exits, the right.
About 15 years ago, as a relatively new driver, I complained to Fingal about this roundabout, pointing out that the rules of the road had no provision for 3 lane roundabouts. They put the traffic lights in then, which did improve things.

What you describe is still a problem, and it's partly because the light sequence just before the Pavilions exit (coming around from the north end) causes cars to backup and block the turn towards Pinnock Hill.

plodder

Grolschevik wrote: »

So you're going south and straight through the roundabout continuing south and in the right lane.

They are entering the roundabout from your left in their left lane and going towards the Pavilions.

If so, the issue is that they are entering the roundabout when it isn't clear to do so, as you have right of way and are on the roundabout already.

It's not that they're in the wrong lane, as roundabout discipline doesn't depend on which number exit it is, but rather a 'clock face', left lane before 12 (straight ahead) thing. And in fact, the road markings (visible on Google Maps) allow them to use both lanes for proceeding straight through the roundabout.

So the issue isn't that they're in the wrong lane, it's that they're chancing their arm while you have right of way, and possibly incorrectly assuming that, because you're in the right lane, that you'll be heading round towards the Pavilions too.

Here's the exact spot. I think it's not very clear.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4540649,-6.2133585,3a,75y,229.42h,82.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP19d2EewnjDPdzSh-gPjgg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

What do the markings in the left lane mean. Does the left arrow mean the first exit, or the first and the second? Does the straight arrow mean the second exit, or the second and the third? The angle you are facing suggests that straight on means the second exit imo. But, it's not clear either way.

There's been a few attempts to make sense of roundabouts in the rules of the road. At one time, it was based on the number of exits. The first two exits would be the left lane and following exits would be accessed using the right lane. Then they changed it to use this "clock face" idea. Personally, I think that has just created confusion and led to this exact problem, with traffic crossing over on the roundabout. It made more sense to do it by counting the number of exits.

Road signs would be the best way to deal with complicated ones like this, imo.

Another roundabout that causes problems is the one in Airside beside B&Q. The normal "rule" means when approaching from the M1, you should be in the left lane to go left or straight, but it would make more sense to have the left lane only for the first exit into Airside, and the right lane for straight ahead or the third exit. That's just based on the traffic patterns there. Road markings would work there I think because it's a simple enough layout.

Wishbone Ash

pinkypinky wrote: »

.... the light sequence just before the Pavilions exit (coming around from the north end) causes cars to backup and block the turn towards Pinnock Hill.

There are yellow hatched markings there to alleviate that problem but they are widely ignored.

Inquitus

It's all driver error, rather than roundabout design, you can easily pull out of the Pavillions into the furthest lane over if you need to turn right or go round the roundabout, the issue arises from people pulling into the near lane and then realising they need to go round the roundabout, chopping off any cars who might be in the way. I also see the same issue to a lesser degree at the Airport roundabout.

ThunbergsAreGo

I hate driving this roundabout, its really horrible both from the design and the other drivers uncertainty

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The quality of road surface on that roundabout is atrocious. It needed to be fixed years ago. You need to get onto Fingal and complain. They'll only fix it if people make it known to them that there is a problem. Also should raise a safety concern on the current layout and lack of markings and correct signage. Make a request that an engineer do a survey of the roundabout.

Has anyone else noticed that when the traffic lights are broken on that roundabout, the traffic moves much more freely. Same with the Airport roundabout. They should just switch off the traffic lights on night roundabouts.

Wishbone Ash

Cohen Whining Accelerator wrote: »

... when the traffic lights are broken on that roundabout, the traffic moves much more freely....

It may work well if you are going with the main flow of traffic but lights are generally installed to assist those entering from less busy roads. For example, at 6pm the traffic heading north would flow better but it would be difficult to enter the roundabout from the Pavilions side and result in backed up traffic to Swords Main Street.

Years ago, people used to say the same about the Stillorgan dual carriageway (which was the country's busiest road before the M50) - that traffic flowed better when the lights were out of order. Yes, but it was virtually impossible for those trying to enter the carriageway from a side road. Hence the reason for lights.

dublinbando

Here is an image I made of the problem: http://imgur.com/a/zDeKQ

The red line indicates the incorrect path which I see people do almost daily and nearly causes an accident every time.

The green line is the correct way to navigate this roundabout from Malahide to Pavillions.

Dizzyblonde

^ We were taking the exit at the top of the photo last week when someone raced past us on the outside. It was a miracle he didn't hit us.

Arthur Daley

Of course the other crazy move is to come down from airside heading north, stay in the left lane and swing across to the Malahide exit after the Pavilions exit. So going from 6 o clock to 3 o clock in the left lane. Seen it more than once.

plodder

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It may work well if you are going with the main flow of traffic but lights are generally installed to assist those entering from less busy roads. For example, at 6pm the traffic heading north would flow better but it would be difficult to enter the roundabout from the Pavilions side and result in backed up traffic to Swords Main Street.

Years ago, people used to say the same about the Stillorgan dual carriageway (which was the country's busiest road before the M50) - that traffic flowed better when the lights were out of order. Yes, but it was virtually impossible for those trying to enter the carriageway from a side road. Hence the reason for lights.

It's a bit different on a roundabout though. The other roundabouts on that stretch of road seem to work well enough without lights, and it's only the ones with lights that people complain about. I think another part of the reason why some people take the red line on that image, is because doing it the right way means you have to cross a lane when exiting at the Pavilions, and when the light is red there, that can be awkward.

They should trial a period with the lights turned off and if it works out, remove them completely. If not, switch them back on.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The lights sequence on the swords roundabout hasn't changed in years. Probably over a decade. I have seen the traffic lights broken on many occasions including rush hour and traffic flows freely no matter what time of day.
The only occasion I did see a problem was around the Christmas period and that was more to do with people turning for the pavilions and blocking the roundabout for those going North.

The airport round about is a joke. They should remove the traffic lights on that roundabout. Again the sequence is totally out of whack with the current traffic flow. Going from Swords to Santry, about 3 or 4 vehicles get through before the lights go red again.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It may work well if you are going with the main flow of traffic but lights are generally installed to assist those entering from less busy roads. For example, at 6pm the traffic heading north would flow better but it would be difficult to enter the roundabout from the Pavilions side and result in backed up traffic to Swords Main Street.

Years ago, people used to say the same about the Stillorgan dual carriageway (which was the country's busiest road before the M50) - that traffic flowed better when the lights were out of order. Yes, but it was virtually impossible for those trying to enter the carriageway from a side road. Hence the reason for lights.

Grolschevik

dublinbando wrote: »

Here is an image I made of the problem: http://imgur.com/a/zDeKQ

The red line indicates the incorrect path which I see people do almost daily and nearly causes an accident every time.

The green line is the correct way to navigate this roundabout from Malahide to Pavillions.

You see, I think that's the very definition of an exit at 12 o'clock (ie going straight ahead).

See http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf#page=132

And another pic of the roundabout, with road markings visible: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4539803,-6.2139174,243m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

PWEI

Another dangerous move I've seen a lot of lately is coming from airside and heading north. Both left and right lanes have a backlog of traffic and cars are going in to the 3rd lane, the lane for turning left for the Pavillons.
But instead of turning left they force their way out & go straight through the roundabout so they avoid the queue.
Taxis are the worst offenders for doing this.

Cloudio9

dublinbando wrote: »

Here is an image I made of the problem: http://imgur.com/a/zDeKQ

The red line indicates the incorrect path which I see people do almost daily and nearly causes an accident every time.

The green line is the correct way to navigate this roundabout from Malahide to Pavillions.

A couple of issues. You (like me) were taught the exit number method for negotiating a roundabout and will consider the pavilions exit as the third exit and therefore, use right lane.

However, it seems that anyone under the age of 30 has been taught the clock face method so will interpret the pavilions exit as "straight ahead" and use the left lane.

Then add in all the people over 60 who never received any formal roundabout education and you have a right mess.

Then, we have councils adopting the practice of painting arrow signs on roundabouts which are nearly invisible in traffic or wet weather.

There is also a problem with drivers on the dual carriageway going straight through from North to South at totally inappropriate speeds just because they have the right of way. That makes it quite challenging at times if travelling from Malahide where you always have flashing ambers rather than a green light.

So I gave up on being right and just keep my eyes peeled on that roundabout.

Because of the arrows on this roundabout it would seem that both lanes can be used to take the pavilions exit.

pinkypinky

Fwiw, I remember the roundabout without traffic lights, before the Pavilions was built, and it was a nightmare to get out from the Malahide road or Feltrim exits. Cars just flew past.

plodder

pinkypinky wrote: »

Fwiw, I remember the roundabout without traffic lights, before the Pavilions was built, and it was a nightmare to get out from the Malahide road or Feltrim exits. Cars just flew past.

I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure that the lights were put in not long before the section of the M1 there was built. So, all North/South traffic was going through the roundabout. I remember it too and it was chaos, and worse than it is now. But, it was just congestion caused by the amount of traffic. The Pavilions was opened in 2001 and the motorway section linking the airport to Donabate wasn't opened until 2003 (if wikipedia is to be believed).

Also, the speeding traffic going north to south is encouraged by the green light. If there was no light then that traffic would have to slow down at least and stop more often.

hammy007

Cloudio9 wrote: »

A couple of issues. You (like me) were taught the exit number method for negotiating a roundabout and will consider the pavilions exit as the third exit and therefore, use right lane.

However, it seems that anyone under the age of 30 has been taught the clock face method so will interpret the pavilions exit as "straight ahead" and use the left lane.

Then add in all the people over 60 who never received any formal roundabout education and you have a right mess.


So I gave up on being right and just keep my eyes peeled on that roundabout.

.

I learned the clock method as well, which makes the left lane correct. That being said, I agree with you that some people don't use that method and I've seen people in the right lane get off at the Airside exit and almost collide with people in the left lane who were going to the Pavilions. From Malahide, I tend to use the right hand lane just to be on the safe side, then cut to the middle lane when the extra lane opens since you can't exit left from the right lane. That spot is treacherous as well, because there is sometimes a battle for that middle lane that exits to the Pavilions. Terrible set up altogether.

plodder

Another thing, I doubt that the law/regulations say anything about a "clock face" or for that matter refer to the number of exits. It's likely something dreamed up by the RSA at different times, to try and simplify it for explanatory purposes. The rules of the road is not actually the law and I think in almost any situation you can imagine, a collision between a driver in the left lane going to the Pavilions and a driver in the right lane going straight on would be the fault of the driver in the left lane. A common situation is when the traffic in the right lane is backed up and stopped with some people going to the Pavilions and some going straight on. So, there is a greater risk of collision then when the straight on cars move off.

pinkypinky

Traffic already on the roundabout always takes precedence too.

tobsey

dublinbando wrote: »

Here is an image I made of the problem: http://imgur.com/a/zDeKQ

The red line indicates the incorrect path which I see people do almost daily and nearly causes an accident every time.

The green line is the correct way to navigate this roundabout from Malahide to Pavillions.

I disagree. The R106 is Swords\Malahide Road. It starts at the Old Schoolhouse and runs through to the roundabout at the pavilions and through the big roundabout on the by-pass. If you are coming from the Malahide side towards pavilions you are going straight through the roundabout. The standard rule for going straight through is to use the left lane. The fact that there are two exits before the one going straight on makes no difference.

A bigger issue would be cars starting on the green path on your image and heading taking the second exit towards Airside. However if you're coming from Malahide you should be in the left lane for any exit except the one heading north. Normally the right lane should only be for people heading north, but the road markings indicate you can go straight through as well, which is the green path.

The Davestator

tobsey wrote: »

I disagree. The R106 is Swords\Malahide Road. It starts at the Old Schoolhouse and runs through to the roundabout at the pavilions and through the big roundabout on the by-pass. If you are coming from the Malahide side towards pavilions you are going straight through the roundabout. The standard rule for going straight through is to use the left lane. The fact that there are two exits before the one going straight on makes no difference.

A bigger issue would be cars starting on the green path on your image and heading taking the second exit towards Airside. However if you're coming from Malahide you should be in the left lane for any exit except the one heading north. Normally the right lane should only be for people heading north, but the road markings indicate you can go straight through as well, which is the green path.

Please go and read your rules of the road book again!

Grolschevik

The Davestator wrote:

Please go and read your rules of the road book again!

The relevant page from the Rules is linked to in my post above.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf#page=132

EDIT: found this response to a direct question from an RSA driver tester supervisor:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055998652

as a general rule, if taking any Exit between the 8.00am to 1.00pm positions, motorists should approach in the Left Hand Lane, Road Position or as dictated by Road Markings.

If taking any Exit from the 1.pm to 5.pm position motorists should approach in the Right Hand Lane or Position.

Your colleagues are not correct in their understanding that they base their approach on the number of exits only and not take into account the layout of the Exits at the Roundabouts.

tobsey

The Davestator wrote: »

Please go and read your rules of the road book again!

I know the rules well enough. The markings on the ground indicate that both left and right lanes can be used for going straight on, where going straight on means going towards the pavilions. The left lane also allows turning left which means taking either of the first two exits.

The OP seems to suggest they are approaching from the seatown roundabout in the right lane when going straight. Their issue is cars coming from their left and crossing in front of them past the OP's exit. The issue isn't the lane that the other cars are in, the issue is that they're joining the roundabout when it isn't clear.

Carawaystick

I'd say it's not a roundabout within the meaning of the RTAs, It's a series of junctons with short gaps between them, some, traffic light controlled, some pedestrian crossing controlled.

It's also a bit bizzare having an 80 limit...

It also has flared entrances and exits, making a mockery of the o'clock scheme, as when you actually enter the roundabout, the exit you thought was at 12 o'clock is now at 2 o'clock

I love Sean nos

Grolschevik wrote: »

It's not that they're in the wrong lane, as roundabout discipline doesn't depend on which number exit it is, but rather a 'clock face', left lane before 12 (straight ahead) thing. And in fact, the road markings (visible on Google Maps) allow them to use both lanes for proceeding straight through the roundabout.

Did the clocks in your house melt at some point? There's no way that travelling from Malahide to the Pavilions exit is 12 o'clock.

ethernet

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Did the clocks in your house melt at some point? There's no way that travelling from Malahide to the Pavilions exit is 12 o'clock.

Not wildly off 12 anyway!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

It's pretty close to be fair. Take a look on Google or Bing maps.

Edit: ethernet posted a map

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Did the clocks in your house melt at some point? There's no way that travelling from Malahide to the Pavilions exit is 12 o'clock.

Grolschevik

I love Sean nos wrote:

Did the clocks in your house melt at some point? There's no way that travelling from Malahide to the Pavilions exit is 12 o'clock.

From the direction the OP mentioned, it is. There's more than one route to that roundabout from Malahide.

tobsey

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Did the clocks in your house melt at some point? There's no way that travelling from Malahide to the Pavilions exit is 12 o'clock.

According to the signage it is: https://goo.gl/maps/YvKv2p7YJ4P2

Grolschevik wrote: »

From the direction the OP mentioned, it is. There's more than one route to that roundabout from Malahide.

The most obvious one being the Malahide Road.

lawred2

dublinbando wrote: »

This roundabout is an absolute disgrace, and the people who can't seem to figure out how it even work's should be disqualified from driving!

I drive this roundabout nearly every day and at least once per week I see some tool driving around the outside lane to make the third exit...

That is going from Malahide to the Pavillions exit. I will be driving straight through from the Woodies roundabout and this tool will swing right out in front of me as I'm exiting the roundabout.

I think the roundabout needs to be redesigned to be like the intersection of the long mile road and N7. With the main dual carriage way having a straight through road on the roundabout and traffic lights.

Anyone else have the same opinion??

What could be done to push the council to fix this roundabout?

Usually bad design is the primary cause of bad driver behaviour and that roundabout is a BAD design

dublinbando

lawred2 wrote: »

Usually bad design is the primary cause of bad driver behaviour and that roundabout is a BAD design

Is there anything that we can do about it though? if say I sent a letter to our TD's would there be any chance they would do something about it?

Or even a petition or something?

pinkypinky

It's the local council that would be able to effect change, not TDs, but I doubt they'd do anything about it.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I would doubt the council will change the layout. However you should still contact them with your concerns. You have a better chance of them refreshing the road markings and perhaps updating the signage.

GerryDerpy

OP if you stay in the left lane then no one can cut across in front of you. It usually takes two mistakes to cause a collision. HOWEVER, and I will admit to this, I use the right lane because of the ridiculous dip in the tarmac on the left lane. Well it is there on the right lane but no where near as severe. I won't do it if there is a car on my left though.

I have been driving that roundabout since i was 17. See a collision and/or near miss every week.

The most common one I see is people coming from Airside roundabout, heading northbound, in left lane, and then cutting across lanes to go to Malahide exit just as they pass the first (Pavillions) exit. Experience helps, I can see the 'body language' of these cars at this stage.

I love Sean nos

pinkypinky wrote: »

It's the local council that would be able to effect change, not TDs, but I doubt they'd do anything about it.

James Reilly would make a good roundabout.