Ignorant Passengers

XPS_Zero

I've been on the Enterprise twice in recent weeks.

It's usually one of the better rail services in Ireland because like Cork it has personnel on board and is just far more comfortable, has more amenities like a restaurant car and decent air conditioning, it thus makes a long trip pass more comfortably.

I've brought up here once before the issue of people playing music on phones a who apparently have never heard of earphones, this is usually 1-2 people though, but now I'm starting to see entire groups doing this stuff, and the rail staff don't say a word to them.  On one trip there was a group of (drunk) lads in their 20s beating out music, the music was bad enough, football songs ...ugh...jesus.., but added to that none of us realize when were tanked just how loud were being and the two together made the trip unbearable.nals

I might be alone...but despite the stereotype of millennial lacking social graces not being able to look up from our iphones for 5 seconds to notice other people in the world and show them consideration, I was always brought up to be considerate to other people and try to think of things from others perspectives, and it seems patently obvious to me that other people might not want to listen to your type of music blaring in their ears, a type they might hate, punctuated by the cheers of loud drunk people...isn't this f---g obvious to anyone with any manners? Even when drunk I'd recognize this, I might not realize how loud I'm talking, but I'd not get up and play music let alone sing along to it at the top of my lungs.

Now I'm on my way home again...and here we go again.  This time it's old women.  They have country music going and are singing along to it, standing up blocking the entry way to the restaurant car, drunk.  It's the worst type of music too, because personally I find country music so profoundly depressing, I have never been able to put my finger on why, but it really just sinks my whole mood and now I have no choice but to listen to it for a 2.5 hour trip because it's so loud it's coming through my ear phones.  There are people, to make matters worse, around them, clapping and laughing, but when I went through the carriage a minute ago to get something to drink I noticed 2/3 of the carriage have a "God...SHOOT ME!" face on and not in a bemused way but in a "this is unbearable " way.

I'm at a loss as to why the train crew can't say to them "ok ladies, let this be the last song there's other people on the train".

Its funny, something I often find myself saying to fellow millienals many of whom seem to be unable to tolerate someone else having a different opinion to themselves without getting personally offended by it, and it applies here, I'd almost like to scream it at these people "there are other people in the world besides you and their wishes and opinions are just as valid as yours".  I wonder how those women would feel if when they were coming home on the train visiting a relative in hospital say , myself and half my rugby team crowded around the carriage they were in and began blasting out and singing along to Linkin Park, Eminem and ItalioBrothers? What bugs me is I know they'd be outraged, but they don't see it themselves.

Losty Dublin

A friend of mine worked on the catering car on the Enterprise. One Saturday night as the train zipped by Balbriggan, he refused service to a man as the bar had closed. He received a broken jaw, eye socket and four months off work for his trouble. On this basis alone it's hard to not see why staff won't tackle a lot of passengers.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A friend of mine worked on the catering car on the Enterprise. One Saturday night as the train zipped by Balbriggan, he refused service to a man as the bar had closed. He received a broken jaw, eye socket and four months off work for his trouble. On this basis alone it's hard to not see why staff won't tackle a lot of passengers.

While an extreme case doesn't it just sum up how driver only trains are just as effective as staffed trains. In most cases where interference is needed it won't happen (not saying its right/wrong just depends on situation).

Del.Monte

No, it shows up, yet again, why trains need an acceptable level of staffing.

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

No, it shows up, yet again, why trains need an acceptable level of staffing.

Two person operation would immediately close large parts of the network

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

Two person operation would immediately close large parts of the network

It might encourage more people to travel as they would feel safer. Anyway there's almost a two person operation in existence already with Travelling Ticket checkers. Of course, if there were two person operation parcels could also be carried thereby generating more revenue. Chicken and egg...

harr

I have seen this a lot on trains and unfortunately recently on the enterprise...it's definitely a staffing issue..was on a Galway bound train over the last bank holiday and two stag parties and a hen party all in different carriages..this was 11am all were very drunk and just basically making the journey very unpleasant for others..
I asked the lady doing the catering if she could get a member of staff down to have a word ..she said it was only her and one other member of staff on board...not acceptable on a full service surely staff should be available in case of emergency..

Del.Monte

harr wrote: »

I have seen this a lot on trains and unfortunately recently on the enterprise...it's definitely a staffing issue..was on a Galway bound train over the last bank holiday and two stag parties and a hen party all in different carriages..this was 11am all were very drunk and just basically making the journey very unpleasant for others..
I asked the lady doing the catering if she could get a member of staff down to have a word ..she said it was only her and one other member of staff on board...not acceptable on a full service surely staff should be available in case of emergency..

Especially as the catering attendant is no more a member of staff than a member of the public is. Private company with nothing to do with rail operation.

Ah yes, millenials.
Any issues I've had on that particular train have been "businessmen" talking very loudly and talking up a 4-person table by themselves for the entire journey and middle aged people cutting ahead as people are getting on.

harr

Del.Monte wrote: »

Especially as the catering attendant is no more a member of staff than a member of the public is. Private company with nothing to do with rail operation.

I knew that..I was just asking her if she could make any other members of staff know...she in fact could not do her job properly as these 3 groups were blocking her from doing her trolley service.

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

It might encourage more people to travel as they would feel safer. Anyway there's almost a two person operation in existence already with Travelling Ticket checkers. Of course, if there were two person operation parcels could also be carried thereby generating more revenue. Chicken and egg...

Neither would vaguely cover the cost

Sam Kade

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I've been on the Enterprise twice in recent weeks.

It's usually one of the better rail services in Ireland because like Cork it has personnel on board and is just far more comfortable, has more amenities like a restaurant car and decent air conditioning, it thus makes a long trip pass more comfortably.

I've brought up here once before the issue of people playing music on phones a who apparently have never heard of earphones, this is usually 1-2 people though, but now I'm starting to see entire groups doing this stuff, and the rail staff don't say a word to them.? On one trip there was a group of (drunk) lads in their 20s beating out music, the music was bad enough, football songs ...ugh...jesus.., but added to that none of us realize when were tanked just how loud were being and the two together made the trip unbearable.nals

I might be alone...but despite the stereotype of millennial lacking social graces not being able to look up from our iphones for 5 seconds to notice other people in the world and show them consideration, I was always brought up to be considerate to other people and try to think of things from others perspectives, and it seems patently obvious to me that other people might not want to listen to your type of music blaring in their ears, a type they might hate, punctuated by the cheers of loud drunk people...isn't this f---g obvious to anyone with any manners? Even when drunk I'd recognize this, I might not realize how loud I'm talking, but I'd not get up and play music let alone sing along to it at the top of my lungs.

Now I'm on my way home again...and here we go again.? This time it's old women.? They have country music going and are singing along to it, standing up blocking the entry way to the restaurant car, drunk.? It's the worst type of music too, because personally I find country music so profoundly depressing, I have never been able to put my finger on why, but it really just sinks my whole mood and now I have no choice but to listen to it for a 2.5 hour trip because it's so loud it's coming through my ear phones.? There are people, to make matters worse, around them, clapping and laughing, but when I went through the carriage a minute ago to get something to drink I noticed 2/3 of the carriage have a "God...SHOOT ME!" face on and not in a bemused way but in a "this is unbearable " way.

I'm at a loss as to why the train crew can't say to them "ok ladies, let this be the last song there's other people on the train".

Its funny, something I often find myself saying to fellow millienals many of whom seem to be unable to tolerate someone else having a different opinion to themselves without getting personally offended by it, and it applies here, I'd almost like to scream it at these people "there are other people in the world besides you and their wishes and opinions are just as valid as yours".? I wonder how those women would feel if when they were coming home on the train visiting a relative in hospital say , myself and half my rugby team crowded around the carriage they were in and began blasting out and singing along to Linkin Park, Eminem and ItalioBrothers? What bugs me is I know they'd be outraged, but they don't see it themselves.

Surely you mean arrogant rather than ignorant.

n97 mini

I think the word is actually inconsiderate.

n97 mini

Enterprise is a long train (7 cars?) and usually not close to full. While I feel your pain I would have searched for a quieter carriage.

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

Neither would vaguely cover the cost

I think that you're seriously mistaken on that as by the time Fastrack was abolished it was cheaper to travel with your parcel than to send it by the service - i.e. it wouldn't take long to make up the wages of an additional staff member. However, since we are talking CIE it is complete beyond the bounds of possibility.

Losty Dublin

Del.Monte wrote: »

No, it shows up, yet again, why trains need an acceptable level of staffing.

The Enterprise is well staffed. A train guard, two or three on the catering set and a train host for the First Class carriages.

Teyla Emmagan

You shouldn't be allowed to drink on trains.

gizmo81

I notice this playing music aloud is becoming a trend. Especially with parents giving kids tablets to entertain them.

Two incidents on Irish Rail, a few years back a girl gets on a mid morning train, proceeds to play music and chug on an e-cigarette. I told her I didn't want to hear what she was playing.

A family get on a busy afternoon train, and the father proceeds to play country and western for mother and daughter. Well, the abuse I got when I asked him to turn it off. I was called all manner of names and accused of all sorts.

Trolley girl said she'd say it Irish Rail staff but there is none. This man and the anger and victimisation he was displaying could have easily turned into violence.

I just don't get how people think playing music aloud on public transport is acceptable. Imagine if every person on a carriage turned on their music. It would be a nightmare.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Enterprise is well staffed. A train guard, two or three on the catering set and a train host for the First Class carriages.

Catering staff are third party contractors though? No responsibility towards the running of the train.

n97 mini

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

You shouldn't be allowed to drink on trains.

Nanny state mentality. Additionally, it's one of the few USPs the train has over the bus.

You shouldn't be allowed disturb other passengers, drinking or not.

ED E

Veolia may have a much more compact network to love after but it really is striking the difference between Luas and IR. IR seem to only have STT lads in Conolly not roaming the network.

Del2005

Deedsie wrote: »

It must have been said a million times. Why can't we have alcohol free quiet carriages. I don't care if people want to drink on a train, there should be consideration for others though.
.

If there is no staff to stop people being antisocial on a train it won't matter if there's an alcohol free carriage, the ignorant people will just ignore it like they ignore that you shouldn't be being antisocial.

LXFlyer

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

You shouldn't be allowed to drink on trains.

So I shouldn't be allowed have a glass of wine when eating dinner on the Enterprise or the Dublin-Cork train?

Del2005

ED E wrote: »

Veolia may have a much more compact network to love after but it really is striking the difference between Luas and IR. IR seem to only have STT lads in Conolly not roaming the network.

And it only took the Luas nearly a decade to get the red line in partial control. Our justice system is the problem not IR, Luas etc.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

personally I find country music so profoundly depressing, I have never been able to put my finger on why, but it really just sinks my whole mood

because by jesus it is depressing. death, immigration. that's all they sing about.

L1011 wrote: »

Two person operation would immediately close large parts of the network

it would be used as an excuse all right. as i said before ireland isn't a normal country and never will be.

tabbey

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

You shouldn't be allowed to drink on trains.

In theory,passengers are only allowed drink the very limited drinks sold on board.
I would not mind somebody drinking a small quantity of alcohol on the train, providing he/she behaves in a respectful manner.

From time immemorial it has been illegal, under railway by-laws to be intoxicated or disorderly on trains, but this is difficult to enforce, especially when such a person boards at an intermediate or provincial station.
Drunk or disorderly people should not be allowed enter the platform at Heuston or Connolly, but it is understandable that station staff allow them to go on their way, as the easiest way to get rid of them.

Ideally the criminal justice system should deal with these characters, but Gardai have no interest, as they could go to a lot of trouble only for a District Judge to dismiss the case or apply probation.

The only way to change attitudes is if enough people seek damages for the unpleasant experience that they have endured. The rail operator has a duty of care far greater than a shopkeepr or publican, as shoppers etc can walk out but railpassengers remain confined to the train.

Teyla Emmagan

lxflyer wrote:

So I shouldn't be allowed have a glass of wine when eating dinner on the Enterprise or the Dublin-Cork train?

No. For the greater food. Can you really not manage to eat your dinner without washing it down with alcohol? Because if so that's a bit pathetic. A blanket booze ban would be one of the easiest ways to mute the gob****e travelling public.

Del.Monte

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

No. For the greater food. Can you really not manage to eat your dinner without washing it down with alcohol? Because if so that's a bit pathetic. A blanket booze ban would be one of the easiest ways to mute the gob****e travelling public.

It might be but as another poster said why should everybody have to suffer because of a few yobs? If they started breaking carriage windows while drunk would you advocate removing carriage windows as a preventative measure.

LXFlyer

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

No. For the greater food. Can you really not manage to eat your dinner without washing it down with alcohol? Because if so that's a bit pathetic. A blanket booze ban would be one of the easiest ways to mute the gob****e travelling public.

I like to think that I'm entitled to make that decision for myself without someone else doing it for me?

And please don't make swinging judgements about me.

If I choose at the end of a long week at work to have a drink with my dinner on my way home, I think that's my business and absolutely none of yours.

Teyla Emmagan

Because I don't think the "suffering" involved in not having a glass of wine with your dinner is anything like the real unpleasantness that is being stuck in a carriage with a load of loud aggressive drunks for hours. As has been said, no one on the trains will tell them to calm down etc so the easiest way to control them is to stop them getting drunk in the first place. When the train is so packed you can't move it makes for a really horrible few hours.

end of the road

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Because I don't think the "suffering" involved in not having a glass of wine with your dinner is anything like the real unpleasantness that is being stuck in a carriage with a load of loud aggressive drunks for hours. As has been said, no one on the trains will tell them to calm down etc so the easiest way to control them is to stop them getting drunk in the first place. When the train is so packed you can't move it makes for a really horrible few hours.

you are imagining things. nobody is claiming that there would be suffering. however
1. it's their business if they want a drink with their dinner, it doesn't make them an alcoholic (peple who think anyone who has a drink is an alcoholic are as bad as those who binge drink)
2. an alcohol bann doesn't and wouldn't actually work as there is no staff, and will be no staff, aboard most trains.

me_right_one

I think there should be wet and dry carriages. And silent ones.

Stephen15

In Italy all trains have on-board police. Much more staffing on trains than IE I dont think I have been on train there without my ticket being checked. Although in Italy there seems to be a huge police and military presence on the streets in big cities Roma termini for example has police, carabinieri, military and private security all on patrol.

Damien360

My dad used to work the galway dublin line for years as staff. He regularly ejected people but he couldn't do it on his own.

Normally 3 staff. Driver (he ain't coming back), ticket checker and guard. Catering are all part timers.

The guard is there for the train entering and exiting stations without killing someone running towards it, not for internal issues with passengers.

When there is trouble, they ring the gardai to meet the train at next station and the problem people are removed. Nobody can put their hands on a member of the public. Not sure what happens after that. Probably just sent on their way.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Catering staff are third party contractors though? No responsibility towards the running of the train.

Yes they are third party staff but I'm not the the one calling for more on board staff

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

I think that you're seriously mistaken on that as by the time Fastrack was abolished it was cheaper to travel with your parcel than to send it by the service - i.e. it wouldn't take long to make up the wages of an additional staff member. However, since we are talking CIE it is complete beyond the bounds of possibility.

Logical fallacy. There weren't enough parcels being sent

Rail operators have dumped this basically worldwide as it was uncompetitive and loss making

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

Logical fallacy. There weren't enough parcels being sent

Rail operators have dumped this basically worldwide as it was uncompetitive and loss making

The service was a shambles but was still used and the primary reason for its closure was the lack of a parcels compartment in the ICRs. CIE couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery as we all know. Railcars with no parcels compartments, SDO or even opening windows...

MGWR

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A friend of mine worked on the catering car on the Enterprise. One Saturday night as the train zipped by Balbriggan, he refused service to a man as the bar had closed. He received a broken jaw, eye socket and four months off work for his trouble. On this basis alone it's hard to not see why staff won't tackle a lot of passengers.

And what did the thug receive?

MGWR

L1011 wrote: »

Logical fallacy. There weren't enough parcels being sent

Rail operators have dumped this basically worldwide as it was uncompetitive and loss making

There weren't enough parcels being sent because the service was deliberately made uncompetitive? A larger network would mean more destinations for parcels to travel to, and faster trains would be more time-competitive with road vehicles. But that would take private sector competition and the innovation that comes with it, that is for the railway to be in the private sector again, which has not been the case since 1945.

Stephen15

Del.Monte wrote: »

The service was a shambles but was still used and the primary reason for its closure was the lack of a parcels compartment in the ICRs. CIE couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery as we all know. Railcars with no parcels compartments, SDO or even opening windows...

In fairness most trains these days do not have opening windows but I agree the ICRS are a heap of junk. Unsuited towards commuter operations and unsuited towards Inter city operations as another OP pointed out in either this or another thread like buses on rails.

Losty Dublin

MGWR wrote: »

And what did the thug receive?

The gouger got off scot free, even though he was a regular passenger on the train. Some backing for staff :rolleyes:

MGWR

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The gouger got off scot free, even though he was a regular passenger on the train. Some backing for staff :rolleyes:

This kind of lawlessness will result in chaos if left unpunished. Bad news.

Atlantic Dawn

Why do all staff on the train not have batons like any civilised country?

Del.Monte

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why do all staff on the train not have batons like any civilised country?

Railway staff with batons - where have you seen that? :eek:

Del2005

MGWR wrote: »

This kind of lawlessness will result in chaos if left unpunished. Bad news.

It is unpunished and we do have chaos. It took the Luas nearly a decade to get partial safety on the red line, people smoke anything they want upstairs on our buses and there's gangs of feral children running around causing mayhem on our streets and roads, a lot on scramblers, quads and horses.


About 7 years ago I had the pleasure of spending a day in the children's court in Smithfield after someone was caught in my car, with a load of silver cutlery, trying to steal it. Let me tell you that was an eye opener to a person who never had an interaction with our "justice" system.

The children in there didn't care about it. Everyone from the Gardaí, the solicitors and scumbags knew everyone else . One lad was bragging about robbing his runners for the case and another came up complaining about Garda X nabbing him on the stairs for loads of warrants for missed summons, he was still released on bail. Every case that day was postponed.

A few years later the Garda that caught the person in my car called and said that they had him again and would I go to the adult court. So took the day off work and sat in the court. The person who was caught in my car got off as he absconded and the Gardaí didn't hunt him down to bring him to court again, his solicitor argued it wasn't fair on him to be tried for stealing after such a long time. No one cared I had to get rid of a perfectly good car because of the scumbag.

fg1406

I was assaulted on a train years ago by a group of drunk women who were smoking and necking back cans to beat the band. No staff on train. No security. It was a late night service into heuston so by the time the train had gotten to Dublin there were no IR staff at the station either. I was absolutely terrified. It's horrible that you can feel so unsafe on public transport in Ireland. The luas (red line) is a cesspit of scum but at least they have some security and cameras on board but when I complained to IR about the assault I was subjected to, all I got was a free train ticket (one way).

Atlantic Dawn

Del.Monte wrote: »

Railway staff with batons - where have you seen that? :eek:

Spain, all staff have them, including those cleaning the trains. I think the drivers are the only ones who don't have them.

Del.Monte

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Spain, all staff have them, including those cleaning the trains. I think the drivers are the only ones who don't have them.

Apart not liking the idea, I can imagine the number of court cases from scumbags and innocent people would be enormous.

sporty56

About 4 years I made a suggestion to Irish Rail and similar on controlling anti social behaviour. Irish Rail responded saying they thought it excellent idea and would recommend it's implementation. However that was end of my proposal.

My suggestion was that in each carriage there would be notices giving a text number to inform security in real time of adjacent anti social messing. Here the texter could discretely advise of train, location, carriage number and nature of problem without messers knowing. This would allow security to direct a rapid response team to the problem by boarding at a practical following station.

I still think it's worth trying these notices to make trains safer and more friendly. It just has to work a few times(with results highlighted by company PR) for message to get out to gurriers that they're not beyond the law.

Del2005

sporty56 wrote: »

About 4 years I made a suggestion to Irish Rail and similar on controlling anti social behaviour. Irish Rail responded saying they thought it excellent idea and would recommend it's implementation. However that was end of my proposal.

My suggestion was that in each carriage there would be notices giving a text number to inform security in real time of adjacent anti social messing. Here the texter could discretely advise of train, location, carriage number and nature of problem without messers knowing. This would allow security to direct a rapid response team to the problem by boarding at a practical following station.

I still think it's worth trying these notices to make trains safer and more friendly. It just has to work a few times(with results highlighted by company PR) for message to get out to gurriers that they're not beyond the law.

The problem with this is that security people have as much power as you or I and the Gardaí won't respond because it will consume loads of resources for at best a slap on the wrist. Till there are effective punishments* delivered by our courts then the problem will never be resolved.


*Punishment can be fines/compensation with deductions made at source, tagging, barring orders etc.

jippo nolan

me_right_one wrote: »

I think there should be wet and dry carriages. And silent ones.

And a smoking one at the back!