New Metal Light Switches not Earthed!

cheif kaiser

I just had a new kitchen and bathroom installed just before Christmas and specified that I wanted metal sockets and switches installed. I have just discovered (by accident) that they basically used the old wiring in the house and none of the light switches are earthed :mad:

I brought this to the installers attention and insisted that the issue be fixed. He sent the electrician from the job down to have a look and his answer was... Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic. I refused this as an option and he is now not answering any of my emails or texts.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

Thanks.

Pkiernan

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I just had a new kitchen and bathroom installed just before Christmas and specified that I wanted metal sockets and switches installed. I have just discovered (by accident) that they basically used the old wiring in the house and none of the light switches are earthed :mad:

I brought this to the installers attention and insisted that the issue be fixed. He sent the electrician from the job down to have a look and his answer was... Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic. I refused this as an option and he is now not answering any of my emails or texts.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

Thanks.

Would chrome look plastic ones work for you?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0158QELWS?psc=1

cheif kaiser

Pkiernan wrote: »

Would chrome look plastic ones work for you?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0158QELWS?psc=1

These unfortunately are just the surround that fits over a light switch but thanks for suggestion.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic.

In which case they should not have fitted the switches.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

You could get an earth pulled to each switch. This may not be easy, but it is possible.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

In which case they should not have fitted the switches.

Yes, I completely agree but they don't seem to care.

2011 wrote: »

You could get an earth pulled to each switch. This may not be easy, but it is possible.

Have explored this option and no electrician seems to be interested in doing it. Too much hassle apparently.

cheif kaiser

I've just noticed that the back boxes are also metal so even if I replace the switches with plastic switches there is still a danger?

Sleeper12

What other electrical works did they do? Did they issue a cert?

I ask this because if they did more than replace light switches, maybe an electric or power shower,or did any work on the fusebox then they should have issued you with a reci cert. RECI then make them come back to do it properly & safely for free

cheif kaiser

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What other electrical works did they do? Did they issue a cert?

I ask this because if they did more than replace light switches, maybe an electric or power shower,or did any work on the fusebox then they should have issued you with a reci cert. RECI then make them come back to do it properly & safely for free

Ye they fitted a power shower, fitted new spots, none of these are earthed either but they seem to be just clip on metal parts, although 1 in the hall was fully metal and I replaced this myself with a double insulated. Most of the work they did in the kitchen was also new. The kitchen was ripped back to a shell and all new sockets added which they seem to have just attached onto the old circuit.

No cert was issued for any of the work.

Sleeper12

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ye they fitted a power shower, fitted new spots, none of these are earthed either but they seem to be just clip on metal parts, although 1 in the hall was fully metal and I replaced this myself with a double insulated. Most of the work they did in the kitchen was also new. The kitchen was ripped back to a shell and all new sockets added which they seem to have just attached onto the old circuit.

No cert was issued for any of the work.

Anything in the bathroom has to be done by a REC & certed. If they fitted a power shower without RCD protection it can be lethal & very illegal. Many just take a spur from a light or socket. This will power the shower no problem but you have no protection as you shower.
If it were me I would tell them that you will report them if the work isn't done correctly with a cert. If they don't fix it I would report them here http://www.safeelectric.ie/
To be honest you should just report them anyway. They could kill someone in the next house they work on. As a society we don't like to report anyone but lives are at risk here.
I don't believe they used electricians at all on your job. I'd like to think no electrician would do this quality work. Think about this, even a fully qualified electrician can't do any electrical work in a bathroom unless they are a REC.
I'm a plumber so maybe some of the electricians here can help you out more

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I've just noticed that the back boxes are also metal so even if I replace the switches with plastic switches there is still a danger?

Theoretically, yes. In the even of the back box becoming live the exposed screws on the front of the light switch would also be live. Obviously it would be easy to make contact with these screws resulting in a shock. If the switch box was earthed the circuit should automatically disconnect if the box were to become live thus averting the shock risk.

cheif kaiser

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If they don't fix it I would report them here http://www.safeelectric.ie/
To be honest you should just report them anyway. They could kill someone in the next house they work on. As a society we don't like to report anyone but lives are at risk here.
I don't believe they used electricians at all on your job.

Wasn't even aware of www.safeelectric.ie so thank you for that info, I will definitely report them.

I asked multiple times as to the qualifications of the electrician and just from taking to him about his plans to further his career, I would be almost sure he was a qualified electrician.

He of course is now blaming the builder and the builder is blaming him!

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Theoretically, yes. In the even of the back box becoming live the exposed screws on the front of the light switch would also be live. Obviously it would be easy to make contact with these screws resulting in a shock. If the switch box was earthed the circuit should automatically disconnect if the box were to become live thus averting the shock risk.

Thanks for that I had a feeling that leaving the metal boxes would still pose a danger.

Could anyone advise as to what plastic back boxes I should get for inside a concrete wall? I can only find plastic for stud walls or for surface mounting.

I really want to remove these switches asap, I am becoming afraid to even touch them. Once they are removed and all is safe I can relax and look into getting the house properly earthed.

Thanks.

Free-2-Flow

If your house is in the 60's period chances are it has no earthing in the lights at all, Houses that old generally may have to be rewired to adhere to the modern day

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

If your house is in the 60's period chances are it has no earthing in the lights at all, Houses that old generally may have to be rewired to adhere to the modern day

House is actually from the 40's It was rewired years ago and everything is earthed except the lights and light switches. From what I can gather this was not required at the time but having requested metal switches and fittings and gutted the kitchen back to bare walls and being charged for 1st fix and second fix, I naturally assumed that they had wired correctly for these fittings.

I never thought for 1 minute that anyone would risk doing something so dangerous and reckless as not earthing metal fittings. Had I not discovered it by accident and had a little knowledge on electrics, I would be none the wiser, until one day one of my family members was blown across the room!

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

I never thought for 1 minute that anyone would risk doing something so dangerous and reckless as not earthing metal fittings. Had I not discovered it by accident and had a little knowledge on electrics, I would be none the wiser, until one day one of my family members was blown across the room!

When was it rewired? Are they black and red?

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

When was it rewired? Are they black and red?

Can't be sure of the year but yes they are black and red.

Free-2-Flow

Oddly enough back in the day it wasn't mandatory to earth light switches so even though brass fittings were a popular thing.

As far as I know the colours changed in 2004 along with the regs.

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

Red and black with a bare copper earth in sockets can be very dangerous, later to be covered in green, before the 2004 regs.

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Oddly enough back in the day it wasn't mandatory to earth light switches so even though brass fittings were a popular thing.

As far as I know the colours changed in 2004 along with the regs.

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

Red and black with a bare copper earth in sockets can be very dangerous, later to be covered in green, before the 2004 regs.

It was rewired much further back than 2004 and that's for certain but the earth wires that I have seen in the house are all covered green and the wiring looks good, no deterioration or anything like that.

The fuse board was also changed around 8 years ago and from what I can recall some new earthing was also doe at that time.

I have replaced most of the centre ceiling lights in the last few years and even I knew that they needed to be double insulated and are.

That's another reason I am so Pi** ed off about this. Any wiring I did, which was minimal, I made sure to make sure it was safe. Then along comes a professional and does this!??! It's so infuriating :mad:

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

That's another reason I am so Pi** ed off about this. Any wiring I did, which was minimal, I made sure to make sure it was safe. Then along comes a professional and does this!??! It's so infuriating

Just thinking out loud here, and maybe I'm wrong, but what is more dangerous.

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

Plastic fittings with metal screws is what we had for years (This is the old family home) and no harm came to anyone.

I'm not saying that is good practice either but the chances of the live becoming loose and touching one of the screws and then someone touching one of the screws would be fairly slim.

The chances of the whole cover becoming live would be much more likely and the chances of someone then touching the cover would be very likely.

I'm sure you can also get boxes that isolate the screw housing from the wiring?

2011

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

It is a simple enough process for an electrician to test the integrity of the insulation by carrying out an insulation resistance test. I have seen PVC insulated cables far older than this pass IR tests by a very large margin. If installed correctly looks ok it generally passes with flying colours. It would be worth checking though.

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

There is a higher risk with the metal light switch.

cheif kaiser

Anyone tell me what type of plastic back box would be suitable for in a concrete wall please? Can only find surface mount or stud wall boxes.

Thanks!

ellobee

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Anyone tell me what type of plastic back box would be suitable for in a concrete wall please? Can only find surface mount or stud wall boxes.

Thanks!

as these switches are in areas where you could possibly have wet hands and bare feet I would definitely change the switches back to plastic, you could also fit plastic/nylon screws to get over the metal box problem, your families safety is more important than the look of your kitchen

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

as these switches are in areas where you could possibly have wet hands and bare feet I would definitely change the switches back to plastic, you could also fit plastic/nylon screws to get over the metal box problem, your families safety is more important than the look of your kitchen

I completely agree! I want to remove them now and when I can find someone to run earth wires I'll put them back.

My hope was that I could find a better alternative to white plastic, even black plastic would have been a better option.

The issue I have now, is that I don't know what type of back boxes are the correct ones to use?

DublinDilbert

Is the wiring to the switches accessible? Partition walls? In conduit?

I would just drop the earths now, as easy as changing all the switches. If you've changed light fittings, running an earth is easy enough. Then just ask a rec to connect it up.

ellobee

Changing the boxes will be a bit messy, probably some plastering and painting required afterwards, but if you do want them changed probably something like this is what you want, but any good electrical shop can advise you, or as I said previously a nylon screw would be an easier option.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/eBoot-Pieces-Spacer-Standoff-Assorted/dp/B06XFV5629/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1496905603&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=nylon+screws&psc=1

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

Changing the boxes will be a bit messy, probably some plastering and painting required afterwards, but if you do want them changed probably something like this is what you want, but any good electrical shop can advise you, or as I said previously a nylon screw would be an easier option.

Oh I get what you mean now sorry! Leave the metal back boxes and screw the fronts on with nylon screws That's actually a great idea, thanks! Have been working all night so brain not functioning correctly

Don't suppose you know what size screws I would need?

ellobee

I think the standard size is M3.5 and then the length depends on how far back your box is, but you could just get long ones and cut them to suit. I'm not sure how easy it is to get them, you might have to order them online and in a bigger quantity than you need, or you could try an electrical wholesaler and see if they can order them in for you

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

I think the standard size is M3.5 and then the length depends on how far back your box is, but you could just get long ones and cut them to suit. I'm not sure how easy it is to get them, you might have to order them online and in a bigger quantity than you need, or you could try an electrical wholesaler and see if they can order them in for you

Found them in Radionics which is in my area so I'll take a quick trip around there later.

Thanks for your help and everyone else

2011

Don't go fiddling with this yourself. You paid a professional to do this properly, make him do it as per the regulations. End of.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Don't go fiddling with this yourself. You paid a professional to do this properly, make him do it as per the regulations. End of.

Easier said than done when he won't answer phone, reply to texts or answer emails. No amount of threats of Reci, Court, etc, has worked!

He actually had the ba**s to tell me not to text him anymore as I was upsetting him!

Sleeper12

cheif kaiser wrote:

Easier said than done when he won't answer phone, reply to texts or answer emails. No amount of threats of Reci, Court, etc, has worked!

What about the builder? He's as responsible if he supplied an electrician that has carried out illegal and dangerous work.
Both should be reported to safe electric imo. Not out of spite but because the work is dangerous. You could save a life further down the road by reporting them. Personally I would not have an issue with a none registered electrician doing the job if it was done correctly. It's a safety issue for me

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

Easier said than done when he won't answer phone, reply to texts or answer emails. No amount of threats of Reci, Court, etc, has worked!

I talked to my brother about this as he an electrical engineer, he said he has seen numerous of identical cases to yours with metal fittings.

He said if they were fitted properly and tight then the only way you would get a shock is if a wire breaks out of its housing and comes into contact with the fitting.

He's not condoning the practice but said there are 10's of 1000's of houses in Ireland and England with this problem.

As long the latter doesn't happen you are safe, but if it happens you get 230v up the arm.

The house can never be certified in it's current state.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Easier said than done when he won't answer phone, reply to texts or answer emails. No amount of threats of Reci, Court, etc, has worked!

The reason that you are not getting anywhere is because you are not carrying out your threat. All you have to do is report him and this will be resolved.

When you pay a registered electrical contractor to carry out electrical work the work that they do must comply with the regulations even if you as a customer do not specifically request that the work complies.

These regulations are not optional, ignoring them can have very serious consequences.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

The reason that you are not getting anywhere is because you are not carrying out your threat. All you have to do is report him and this will be resolved.

When you pay a registered electrical contractor to carry out electrical work the work that they do must comply with the regulations even if you as a customer do not specifically request that the work complies.

These regulations are not optional, ignoring them can have very serious consequences.

That's also easier said than done. I went onto the RECI website and apparently, you must fill in their complaints form before any action can be taken and that's fine but the information they require is ... Electricians full name, address and registered RECI number.

Now how on earth is someone supposed to get that information? A dodgy electrician does not generally leave a calling card. He was working for the builder and not me and therefore all I know is his first name!?!?

Sleeper12

cheif kaiser wrote:

Now how on earth is someone supposed to get that information? A dodgy electrician does not generally leave a calling card. He was working for the builder and not me and therefore all I know is his first name!?!?

Report the builder. Get his address on the CRO website. Having said that his address should be on the invoice or receipt. Report him & he'll have to give up the electrictricans name and address

cheif kaiser

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Report the builder. Get his address on the CRO website. Having said that his address should be on the invoice or receipt. Report him & he'll have to give up the electrictricans name and address

I reported him to Safe Electric yesterday. I don't know what the procedure is with them so am just waiting to hear back.

If nothing happens there, I'll just have to hire someone in to run earth wires and fix the issues. I'll then sue him through the small claims court for any money I have to fork out.

I could actually run earth wires myself but am up to my eyes trying to fix up the rest of the house without adding that onto the list.

The house is actually my mother's house who is approaching 80. The builder also knows that she has loads of grandchildren who visit her on a regular basis and they don't give a f**k that they could have killed anyone of them.

aido79

I'm sure if they exist in Ireland but in Australia most light switches have replaceable face plates that just click onto the front of a plastic switch. They come in a range of metallic finishes. No earth is needed as there are no exposed screws and there is no possibility that the cover can become live. Might be an alternative to running earths to each switch.

cheif kaiser

aido79 wrote: »

I'm sure if they exist in Ireland but in Australia most light switches have replaceable face plates that just click onto the front of a plastic switch. They come in a range of metallic finishes. No earth is needed as there are no exposed screws and there is no possibility that the cover can become live. Might be an alternative to running earths to each switch.

Don't suppose you have a link to these?

Thanks.

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

Don't suppose you have a link to these?

Australian switches are Completly different dimensions

Free-2-Flow

Sue him?

Did he price for work he didn't carry out?

Did he price to rewire every light switch with an earth?

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Sue him?

Did he price for work he didn't carry out?

Did he price to rewire every light switch with an earth?

This was a complete rebuild of a kitchen, removal of walls, plaster boarding and plastering walls, wiring new spots and sockets and switches and the installation of a new kitchen, cooker, etc and I paid for all of that.

If in order to install metal light switches, which he supplied and I also paid for, then yes, they should have been earthed.

Wiring them with no earth is Illegal!

If I have to get someone in to put holes in walls that were only plastered and painted in order to run earths to the switches, which should have been done before the walls went up. Then yes, he will be responsible for all that costs.

If you paid someone to build a wall, would you expect them to actually mortar the blocks together or do you think they could just pile all the bricks on top of each other and say, there ye go, there's yer wall?

Your comment is quite frankly ridiculous!

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

Your comment is quite frankly ridiculous!

Okay, don't get too excited there, my comment was a General question looking for your point of view on your thoughts of legal action.

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Okay, don't get too excited there, my comment was a General question looking for your point of view on your thoughts of legal action.

Your comment didn't a help a situation that I am finding extremely annoying and frustrating!

There are kids running around this house and whether the chances of the live becoming loose is a slim to none, it is not a chance I am willing to take. 240v into a child would kill them.

Anyone that would risk killing a child for the sake of saving a little extra work and a bit of wire is noting but a complete scumbag!

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

Your comment didn't a help a situation that I am finding extremely annoying and frustrating!

Okay, best of luck so!

ellobee

cheif kaiser wrote: »

This was a complete rebuild of a kitchen, removal of walls, plaster boarding and plastering walls, wiring new spots and sockets and switches and the installation of a new kitchen, cooker, etc

Wow this is really bad, I originally thought he just replaced the switches and sockets, and there would have been a huge amount of extra work involved to get an earth in there, but he put in new sockets and spots and the place had to be replastered , absolutely no excuse not to run an earth to the switches, if the electrician was sub contracted by the builder I would go after the builder, btw have you checked out the rest of the installation are the sockets lights and cooker all up to scratch, if there are any copper pipes are they bonded ?

rpmcs

Where did you get in contact with builder?
Was it from someone you knew?
From there you may be able to get electrician's full name and address...

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

cheif kaiser wrote: »

This was a complete rebuild of a kitchen, removal of walls, plaster boarding and plastering walls, wiring new spots and sockets and switches and the installation of a new kitchen, cooker, etc

Wow this is really bad, I originally thought he just replaced the switches and sockets, and there would have been a huge amount of extra work involved to get an earth in there, but he put in new sockets and spots and the place had to be replastered , absolutely no excuse not to run an earth to the switches, if the electrician was sub contracted by the builder I would go after the builder, btw have you checked out the rest of the installation are the sockets lights and cooker all up to scratch, if there are any copper pipes are they bonded ?

I know it's bad! I don't know if everything else is up to scratch to be honest. My knowledge of electrics is limited. As I said previously, I only found they were not earthed by accident (The plaster work around one of the switches was a bit rough and I pulled it back to sand around it).

I have suspicions that there is other dodgy wiring goings on behind the walls but what I can't see, I can't prove.

cheif kaiser

rpmcs wrote: »

Where did you get in contact with builder?
Was it from someone you knew?
From there you may be able to get electrician's full name and address...

Builder was initially employed to install 2 bathrooms and remove and old one. He owns a bathroom company and was recommended to me. I was happy enough with the bathrooms he built so allowed him to do the kitchen also.

Everyone that he employed was a subcontractor and it was their work that was good quality. I think he is really only a plumber as everything other than the plumbing that he touched was dreadful.

He is the one who will not answer my phone calls or emails.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I know it's bad! I don't know if everything else is up to scratch to be honest. My knowledge of electrics is limited. As I said previously, I only found they were not earthed by accident (The plaster work around one of the switches was a bit rough and I pulled it back to sand around it).

I have suspicions that there is other dodgy wiring goings on behind the walls but what I can't see, I can't prove.

Don't worry. You have reported this now, let the investigation take its course. One thing is certain, this will be dealt with. The fact that the information you provided about the contractors limited doesn't matter, are an inspection will generate such a sh!t storm the builder will suddenly become cooperative and supply the electricians details.

The important thing is that you do not fiddle with the electrical work as this would interfere with any subsequent investigation. If I were you I would follow up with a phone call to RECI.

With the attitude of the electrician I would be concerned about the rest of the wiring.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

.

The important thing is that you do not fiddle with the electrical work as this would interfere with any subsequent investigation. If I were you I would follow up with a phone call to RECI. .

Good idea, I'll do that today. Thanks