Fine for non-display of tax disk - opinions required

DeepBlue

Just wondering what other people's approach would be here.

- Bought 2nd hand car in early April.
- Received Vehicle Registration form on Friday 21st April to home address.
- Got fined while parked in city centre on Monday 24th April for "Failure to display a Current Vehicle Licence Disc".

I've appealed as I think a reasonable person would allow a reasonable amount of time to tax the car and not expect that it be done instantly.

The 28 days to pay the 60 euro has now passed with no response as to whether my appeal was accepted or not. I can now pay 90 within the next few weeks or else go to District Court.

At this point I'm getting a bit irritated and fancy taking it to court.
Should I suck it up or see what a judge thinks?

Toyotafanboi

I've appealed as I think a reasonable person would allow a reasonable amount of time to tax the car and not expect that it be done instantly.

The person who ticketed you (parking warden?) has no way of knowing that you had just bought the car.

The fine is for non display and you were not displaying. It's fairly clear cut unfortunately.

No way I'd be going to court, I'd pay the €60 to avoid the stress, personally.

Phillyf9

I'd agree with Toyotafanboi,I've been down that road before and it doesn't end well.. Basically I was told if the car wasn't taxed I should have kept it off the road until it was(stopped the day after buying the car)

McGrath5

I think just pay the €60 fine and move on with your life.

Cordell

You had plenty of time to sort it out if you really wanted to, so pay up the fine and move on

Atlantic Dawn

In general when you have purchased an untaxed car do not park it in a public place or you can get a fine. I wouldn't bother appealing unless you had purchased tax on or before the 24th April prior to it getting the fine and can prove this.

davo2001

Do you not think that 3 weeks is enough time to tax the car? Sorry OP, suck it up and pay the fine, the district court won't see kindly in your favour.

Jawgap

€60 or spend a half-day, at least, sitting around the DC and no guarantee you'll get it reversed??

Annoying and all as getting the ticket might have been, I'd just pay the fine and move on......after a good rant

biko

The fine for not displaying a valid tax disc. As said above, the warden don't know if car is just bought or if you've been driving around for months with no disc.

DeepBlue

davo2001 wrote: »

Do you not think that 3 weeks is enough time to tax the car? Sorry OP, suck it up and pay the fine, the district court won't see kindly in your favour.

No, I had one day to tax it. Can't tax it without a registration certificate which I got on the Friday.

Lots of letter-of-the-law type responses. I somehow doubt that most people who buy a second hand car get it towed from the seller's address and then leave it parked up off-road for two or three weeks until they get it taxed.

I had a similar incident years ago but then you could go into the local garda station to appeal it and the Superintendent used a bit of common sense and cancelled the ticket.

ozmo

DeepBlue wrote: »

- Got fined while parked in city centre on Monday 24th April ...
At this point I'm getting a bit irritated and fancy taking it to court.
Should I suck it up or see what a judge thinks?

Bit of hassle - but if you have got it backdated to cover the day you were fined - you might get away with it in court.
Something similar happened to a friend with a motorbike years ago - Was dismissed when a tax disc showing coverage for that month was produced.
Was a long time ago mind - things might have changed.

DeepBlue

Anyone know what the worst case scenario is if it does go to court?

Also what use is an appeals procedure that won't give a response for 39 days and counting when it should be relatively straight forward to give a yea or nay?

Caliden

Work out how much taking a day off work would cost you.

If it's more than 60 quid, pay the fine.

zilog_jones

DeepBlue wrote: »

I somehow doubt that most people who buy a second hand car get it towed from the seller's address and then leave it parked up off-road for two or three weeks until they get it taxed.

No, let's not be silly - but there is a significant risk with parking on streets monitored by traffic wardens.

TheChizler

DeepBlue wrote: »

No, I had one day to tax it. Can't tax it without a registration certificate which I got on the Friday.

Lots of letter-of-the-law type responses. I somehow doubt that most people who buy a second hand car get it towed from the seller's address and then leave it parked up off-road for two or three weeks until they get it taxed.

I had a similar incident years ago but then you could go into the local garda station to appeal it and the Superintendent used a bit of common sense and cancelled the ticket.

I made the same mistake as you a few years ago. It turns out you don't need the vehicle registration cert to tax the car. I had also made that assumption and was waiting for it before taxing.

Didn't get a parking fine but got caught for the late payment penalty as it went beyond the first of the month.

Kimbot

ozmo wrote: »

Bit of hassle - but if you have got it backdated to cover the day you were fined - you might get away with it in court.
Something similar happened to a friend with a motorbike years ago - Was dismissed when a tax disc showing coverage for that month was produced.
Was a long time ago mind - things might have changed.

Backdating his tax will not get him off this as its for "NON DISPLAY OF VALID TAX DISK" which on the day in question the OP didnt have a valid disk on display.

mloc123

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In general when you have purchased an untaxed car do not park it in a public place or you can get a fine. I wouldn't bother appealing unless you had purchased tax on or before the 24th April prior to it getting the fine and can prove this.

This. Ant time I swap car and it is untaxed I avoid parking on the street.. stopped by a Guard is fine, you can show you have just bought it but traffic wardens do not care.

xabi

You could have taxed it online a few days after sale, don't need the reg book to tax it. I'd pay the fine as there's no way you will win.

josip

mloc123 wrote: »

This. Ant time I swap car and it is untaxed I avoid parking on the street.. stopped by a Guard is fine, you can show you have just bought it but traffic wardens do not care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1tDpkpnzT8

grogi

xabi wrote: »

You could have taxed it online a few days after sale, don't need the reg book to tax it. I'd pay the fine as there's no way you will win.

The pin is derived from the number of the cert. You cannot do it online.

DeepBlue

TheChizler wrote: »

It turns out you don't need the vehicle registration cert to tax the car.

xabi wrote: »

You could have taxed it online a few days after sale, don't need the reg book to tax it.

This is news to me.
Presumably you use this - https://www.motarviews.ie/forgot-pin-ui/faces/getDetails.jspx?lang=en - to get a PIN and then tax the car?

I wasn't aware of that before. I'd have done it online the next day after buying it if I'd known that.

TheChizler

DeepBlue wrote: »

This is news to me.
Presumably you use this - https://www.motarviews.ie/forgot-pin-ui/faces/getDetails.jspx?lang=en - to get a PIN and then tax the car?

I wasn't aware of that before. I'd have done it online the next day after buying it if I'd known that.

That was my logic, that you couldn't do without the PIN, but you can do it over the phone without the PIN. Hadn't seen the PIN recovery form, maybe it's new?

Isambard

DeepBlue wrote: »

This is news to me.
Presumably you use this - https://www.motarviews.ie/forgot-pin-ui/faces/getDetails.jspx?lang=en - to get a PIN and then tax the car?

I wasn't aware of that before. I'd have done it online the next day after buying it if I'd known that.

Yu couldn't do it the next day, you'd have to wait until it was in your name, but you could check that everyday online.

xabi

grogi wrote: »

The pin is derived from the number of the cert. You cannot do it online.

You can, pin retrieval a few days after they receive it.

xabi

TheChizler wrote: »

That was my logic, that you couldn't do without the PIN, but you can do it over the phone without the PIN. Hadn't seen the PIN recovery form, maybe it's new?

Pin recovery has been there for years

grogi

TheChizler wrote: »

That was my logic, that you couldn't do without the PIN, but you can do it over the phone without the PIN. Hadn't seen the PIN recovery form, maybe it's new?

So not online

TheChizler

grogi wrote: »

So not online

?

livedadream

you can tax your car without the log book, judge wont take kindly to the im playing stupid so dont take your chances,

DeepBlue

livedadream wrote: »

you can tax your car without the log book, judge wont take kindly to the im playing stupid so dont take your chances,

Is that common knowledge though? It's not mentioned anywhere on the motor tax site that I can see.

Also citizen's information say "You cannot tax your new vehicle until the registration of the change of ownership has gone through."
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html

xabi

DeepBlue wrote: »

Is that common knowledge though? It's not mentioned anywhere on the motor tax site that I can see.

Also citizen's information say "You cannot tax your new vehicle until the registration of the change of ownership has gone through."
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html

It tells you how on that link

Isambard

yes it quite clearly doesn't say you have to wait until the cert arrives.

DeepBlue

I guess "You cannot tax your new vehicle until the registration of the change of ownership has gone through." means something different to you guys.

Anyway, read a few other threads on this issue here on boards and it seems mostly those who take it to court in similar circumstances get the case thrown out.

Cordell

But it says:

It is an offence to drive without paying motor tax, so you should not drive until you have received confirmation that the registration has occurred and you have paid the motor tax. Read more in our document on change of vehicle ownership.

This, and not being able to tax the car due to technical (or any other) reasons does not entitle the owner to drive it without tax.

xabi

DeepBlue wrote: »

I guess "You cannot tax your new vehicle until the registration of the change of ownership has gone through." means something different to you guys.

Anyway, read a few other threads on this issue here on boards and it seems mostly those who take it to court in similar circumstances get the case thrown out.

Registration going through does not equal receiving cert in post. It goes through the minute someone in Shannon presses a few keys on their keyboard.

bucketybuck

DeepBlue wrote: »

Lots of letter-of-the-law type responses.

A strange attitude from somebody who wants to go to court, you would think knowing the letter of the law would be useful...

livedadream

the change in ownership takes 10 minutes on the phone if even that,
waiting for the cert to arrive in the post is a totally different matter.

again and i feel like your either not getting it or just dont care: You can tax the car without the cert.

driving illegally is the problem here.

DeepBlue

livedadream wrote: »

again and i feel like your either not getting it or just dont care: You can tax the car without the cert.

/sighs

Explain to me again how this is common knowledge or how it can be reasonably assumed that most ordinary people know this?

motortax.ie and citiizen's information are two places where you would expect to easily find this nugget of info but it's not clearly there.

Tbh I don't think you get it but continue being contrary if you really need to. I just hope you're not a judge.

ohnonotgmail

DeepBlue wrote: »

/sighs

Explain to me again how this is common knowledge or how it can be reasonably assumed that most ordinary people know this?

motortax.ie and citiizen's information are two places where you would expect to easily find this nugget of info but it's not clearly there.

Tbh I don't think you get it but continue being contrary if you really need to. I just hope you're not a judge.

how much value do you place on half a day or more of hanging around the district court? Personally my time is worth more than €90 a day. and that is assuming the judge lets you off which is in no way guaranteed.

Isambard

DeepBlue wrote: »

/sighs

Explain to me again how this is common knowledge or how it can be reasonably assumed that most ordinary people know this?

motortax.ie and citiizen's information are two places where you would expect to easily find this nugget of info but it's not clearly there.

Tbh I don't think you get it but continue being contrary if you really need to. I just hope you're not a judge.

clearly it is there, you are just choosing to read it the way you want to.

livedadream

DeepBlue wrote: »

/sighs

Explain to me again how this is common knowledge or how it can be reasonably assumed that most ordinary people know this?

motortax.ie and citiizen's information are two places where you would expect to easily find this nugget of info but it's not clearly there.

Tbh I don't think you get it but continue being contrary if you really need to. I just hope you're not a judge.

I'm not a judge just an ordinary person who can read and understands the law applies to me even if I'm ignorant of it.

galwaytt

DeepBlue wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

again and i feel like your either not getting it or just dont care: You can tax the car without the cert.

/sighs

Explain to me again how this is common knowledge or how it can be reasonably assumed that most ordinary people know this?

motortax.ie and citiizen's information are two places where you would expect to easily find this nugget of info but it's not clearly there.

Tbh I don't think you get it but continue being contrary if you really need to. I just hope you're not a judge.

It's not the job of the State to keep you up to date: it's your job to keep up to date with requirements of owning and using a vehicle.
You can tax a vehicle in advance of and without the Cert. Heck- you can do it on the day of purchase if you walk into the local CoCo motortax office.

The judge knows this, believe me. .....

RustyNut

DeepBlue wrote: »

Anyone know what the worst case scenario is if it does go to court?

Also what use is an appeals procedure that won't give a response for 39 days and counting when it should be relatively straight forward to give a yea or nay?

The conversation in court will go something like this.

Judge: Miss Blue you are charged with using a vehicle in a public place without displaying a valid tax disc, how do you plead.

DeepBlue: Not guilty.

Traffic warden: I observed car registration number 17c12345 parked in a public place on X date and time without a valid tax disc displayed and issued a fixed charge penalty notice which wasn't paid leading to me issuing a summons.

Judge: Miss Blue what do you have to say? Did you receive the fixed charge notice?

DeepBlue:Yes Judge but I only bought the car 3 weeks earlier and don't think it's reasonable to expect me to have it taxed in 3 weeks.

Judge: Guilty, €150 fine 30 days to pay.........

Or something very similar.

DeepBlue

galwaytt wrote: »

You can tax a vehicle in advance of and without the Cert. Heck- you can do it on the day of purchase if you walk into the local CoCo motortax office.

People keep saying you can tax the car without the cert yet no-one seems to be able to clearly say how to do this. Now someone is saying you can tax it in advance. Strange...........

Hal1

It's stupid having to have a piece of paper on your window in this day and age.

uck51js9zml2yt

The car needs to be in the owner's name to be taxed.
The owner doesn't need the log book.
You can have it taxed but not displayed and still be done for non display.

RustyNut

Hal1 wrote: »

It's stupid having to have a piece of paper on your window in this day and age.

I couldn't agree more. It should also be possable to tax any car online or down the local post office with just the reg of the car, it should also be possable to tax it for a day, week,month or whatever suits the owner. Or just put the tax on fuel.

Neilw

DeepBlue wrote: »

People keep saying you can tax the car without the cert yet no-one seems to be able to clearly say how to do this. Now someone is saying you can tax it in advance. Strange...........

Once the car is in your name you can tax it online without the cert.
Enter the reg as normal and the pin is the last 6 digits of the vin.

ianob7

Neilw wrote:

Once the car is in your name you can tax it online without the cert. Enter the reg as normal and the pin is the last 6 digits of the vin.

Last 6 digits of chassis only works for brand new or imports.

DeepBlue

Neilw wrote: »

Once the car is in your name you can tax it online without the cert.
Enter the reg as normal and the pin is the last 6 digits of the vin.

Once you get the cert you can use the last number of digits of the cert as the PIN to tax it online. But then, of course, you need the cert............

Yawns

DeepBlue wrote: »

Once you get the cert you can use the last number of digits of the cert as the PIN to tax it online. But then, of course, you need the cert............

You can also stop at the motor tax office and tax it on the day of purchase by filling out a form and paying at the counter. No log book required. Get a form, fill in the details. Vin number required for the form is stamped all over the car including being displayed at the windscreen. This way it's possible to buy a car and tax it same day during the business hours etc.

ianob7

You could have rang somebody to clarify the tax situation instead of all this deflecting.. I didn't know this, that or the other. I'd pay the fine and be done with it. The offence was being in a public place without a disc, and you were