Caught on phone, no uniform undercover car

B-D-P--

So,,, on my travels to work, I was at standstill (almost) in traffic, Bored and not thinking I toke out my phone, next thing there was a man in a car pulled up beside me in buslane, asked me to pull in.

He got out, had not stitch of uniform and was in a unmarked silver hyundai, no blue lights on.

Took my licence, went back to his car and came back and said he had to give me a ticket, handed back my licence and went on his merry way...

I'm not suggesting I was right, but is it allowed to give a ticket in such circumstance, also should I have gotten said ticket or does that come in the post?

Cazale

B-D-P-- wrote:

I'm not suggesting I was right, but is it allowed to give a ticket in such circumstance, also should I have gotten said ticket or does that come in the post?

Yes and it comes in the post.

irelandrover

Why would it not be allowed?

B-D-P--

I thought if you were out of uniform you at leist had to show some id to prove your a guard,
For all i was to know he was a mad man stopping random people.

Syphonax

He toked on your licence? bad copper

ELM327

Well you should not have handed your license to a mad man!

Cazale

B-D-P-- wrote:

I thought if you were out of uniform you at leist had to show some id to prove your a guard, For all i was to know he was a mad man stopping random people.

You should always request to see their warrant card if they aren't in uniform. I wouldn't have handed my license over till I was sure they were a guard.

iwillhtfu

Delighted for you. I only wish there were more patrols like this.

Mobile phone use has become a scourge on our roads there's no excuse for it.

B-D-P--

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Delighted for you. I only wish there were more patrols like this.

Mobile phone use has become a scourge on our roads there's no excuse for it.

Not debating that, thats not what I was asking

iwillhtfu

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Not debating that, thats not what I was asking

Generally they would show ID if they aren't in uniform this can easily be missed in the build up and introduction. Did he at least introduce himself as I'm Garda such and such?

B-D-P--

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Generally they would show ID if they aren't in uniform this can easily be missed in the build up and introduction. Did he at least introduce himself as I'm Garda such and such?

He didn't, that's why I've the thread, If it was more standard, had his undercover lights on, said who he was ect, it'd be more believable, but none of that.
And then I don't want to poke and prod sounding cocky asking him for id.

But sure, I've got my answer, Yes it is allowed on his side so that's a question answered.

Sleeper12

iwillhtfu wrote:

Mobile phone use has become a scourge on our roads there's no excuse for it.

It really bother me to see guys in commerce vehicles holding a phone. They spend most of their day-to-day driving. I don't understand how they done have a hands free kit. Personally identifiable think every one should

iwillhtfu

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It really bother me to see guys in commerce vehicles holding a phone. They spend most of their day-to-day driving. I don't understand how they done have a hands free kit. Personally identifiable think every one should

Yes I agree every company vehicle should have a bluetooth kit installed by law. Unfortunately with the nature of phones these days basically being mobile laptops this would only prevent the infrequent calls. It will do nothing for the FB/Twitter/Instagram/email and every other bloody app which are basically what all the crotch watchers are using on their phones whilst driving.

liger

The best one is when people have their phone on speaker but are still holding it in their hand held in front of their face. As if that means, no its not against my ear, it can't be classed as being on the phone.

TimeToShine

Are you allowed use your phone if you have it in a holder on the dash?

iwillhtfu

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you allowed use your phone if you have it in a holder on the dash?

You're not allowed touch it so basically that would be a no and as has already been covered you're not allowed put on a movie or youtube then head off on your journey.

I guess the exception is inputting a route on google maps or whatever app and following a pre input route.

Cape Clear

iwillhtfu wrote: »

You're not allowed touch it so basically that would be a no and as has already been covered you're not allowed put on a movie or youtube then head off on your journey.

I guess the exception is inputting a route on google maps or whatever app and following a pre input route.

A guy in work was done for this recently and took his medicine which would suggest that the use of a sat nav etc. to do the same thing is also outlawed.

GM228

OP, legally the Gardaí are only required to produce ID if you request them to, they do not need to be in uniform or produce ID (unless asked), that is a myth.

(When in uniform they do not need to produce ID either)

B-D-P--

GM228 wrote: »

OP, legally the Gardaí are only required to produce ID if you request them to, they do not need to be in uniform or produce ID (unless asked), that is a myth.

(When in uniform they do not need to produce ID either)

Thanks,
As far as I'm concerned we can lock this as its going to turn into the motorist version of bible bashing.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

OP, legally the Gardaí are only required to produce ID if you request them to, they do not need to be in uniform or produce ID (unless asked), that is a myth.

(When in uniform they do not need to produce ID either)

+1 S.111 RTA 1961 ....

111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

(a) is in uniform, or

(b) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/111/enacted/en/html#sec111

Before anyone points out that there was no mobile phones in 1961, virtually all traffic regulations are made under powers granted by the 1961 act.

Stone Deaf 4evr

B-D-P-- wrote: »

So,,, on my travels to work, I was at standstill (almost) in traffic, Bored and not thinking I toke out my phone, next thing there was a man in a car pulled up beside me in buslane, asked me to pull in.

He got out, had not stitch of uniform and was in a unmarked silver hyundai, no blue lights on.

Took my licence, went back to his car and came back and said he had to give me a ticket, handed back my licence and went on his merry way...

I'm not suggesting I was right, but is it allowed to give a ticket in such circumstance, also should I have gotten said ticket or does that come in the post?

Think of it this way, if you were walking along the street, and someone came up and stole your bag, but was apprehended by a plain clothes garda, would you be making the same arguement?

B-D-P--

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Think of it this way, if you were walking along the street, and someone came up and stole your bag, but was apprehended by a plain clothes garda, would you be making the same arguement?

I love Sean nos

Shouldn't have handed over the licence. That's been copied and will be used to open an offshore account for the college.

Maybe another burner for Noirín too.

Macy0161

Cape Clear wrote: »

A guy in work was done for this recently and took his medicine which would suggest that the use of a sat nav etc. to do the same thing is also outlawed.

Inputting destinations (i.e. using the screen), or actually just using it as a sat nav so it's talking to you giving directions? The use as a sat nav was why the law was somewhat watered down from the tightening up that was proposed a couple of years ago, I thought.

Atlantic Dawn

3 penalty points and a e60 fine, 5 points if you go to court and a e90 fine, your insurance will likely rise by 10% or more, a good cure for de boredom.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Offences%2017%20April%202016.pdf

jimmycrackcorm

iwillhtfu wrote:

You're not allowed touch it so basically that would be a no and as has already been covered you're not allowed put on a movie or youtube then head off on your journey.

The offence is actually holding a phone, not touching it. Since 2014 it's also been a specific offence to send or read a text message.

I love Sean nos

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

a good cure for de boredom.

I recommend storing a couple of **** mags under the seat along with some jam sandwiches.

Avatar MIA

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The offence is actually holding a phone, not touching it. Since 2014 it's also been a specific offence to send or read a text message.

That's my understanding

Following Sat Nav instructions are going to be part of the test in the UK. Most people would have their actual Sat Nav on phones, so I doubt if there's a law in Ireland that you cannot use a pre programmed phone giving Sat Nav instructions that's held independently of the driver.

Re the OP?

If he wasn't wearing his hat he can't arrest you. *








* so a man down the pub told me. Must be true.

brokenarms

iwillhtfu wrote: »

You're not allowed touch it so basically that would be a no and as has already been covered you're not allowed put on a movie or youtube then head off on your journey.

I guess the exception is inputting a route on google maps or whatever app and following a pre input route.

Spend my working day on the road in the city center. Never ever seen a taxi man get a ticket for using Halo or Xmytaxi.

Garda are a joke TBH. They simply could not be bothered most of the time.

endacl

B-D-P-- wrote: »

I thought if you were out of uniform you at leist had to show some id to prove your a guard,
For all i was to know he was a mad man stopping random people.

Out of uniform? So, he wasn't wearing his hat...?

You may get off this one on a technicality....

Avatar MIA

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Re the OP?

If he wasn't wearing his hat he can't arrest you. *








* so a man down the pub told me. Must be true.

*cough*

endacl wrote: »

Out of uniform? So, he wasn't wearing his hat...?

You may get off this one on a technicality....

Cazale

Cazale wrote: »

You should always request to see their warrant card if they aren't in uniform. I wouldn't have handed my license over till I was sure they were a guard.

How many people know what a warrant card looks like? Showing a 'card' is no guarantee of authenticity unless you know what a proper card looks like.

And is it really necessary to stop people to fine them for using a mobile? Surely a dash cam would catch dozens of people a day (using mobiles while driving is so common now), and the screen grab should show the offence and the reg number, and the driver..... allowing a ticket to be sent in the post.

Ben D Bus

Deleted User wrote: »

And is it really necessary to stop people to fine them for using a mobile?

Yes! To remove the immediate danger of a muppet on a phone causing a RTA.

source

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many people know what a warrant card looks like? Showing a 'card' is no guarantee of authenticity unless you know what a proper card looks like.

And is it really necessary to stop people to fine them for using a mobile? Surely a dash cam would catch dozens of people a day (using mobiles while driving is so common now), and the screen grab should show the offence and the reg number, and the driver..... allowing a ticket to be sent in the post.

It's not a card, that's just the term used, it's a badge in a leather wallet with an id card.

An Garda Siochana is written under the badge in gold text and the badge number is under the leather flap the badge is mounted on.

Edit: quick Google provides this:

oxygen

I'm always surprised in threads like this with the initial knee jerk reactions, i.e.
"Delighted for you."; " a scourge on our roads"; "He toked on your licence? bad copper"; It seems particularly prevalent on boards.ie, I think it might be a national psyche trait. On UK forums, posters often show support and side with the OP or discuss the mitigating circumstances.

I understand the law was broke here, but to not question the system leads to complacency which leads to corruptness. I remember being pulled over by an unmarked car on the side of the motorway. I was extremely nervous, they took my license to their car, ran it, etc. Eventually they just let me on my way, but in hindsight I thought to myself, I just blindy accepted their assertion they were the guards, they could have been anyone trying a scam etc... Now I know I can ask to see a warrant card, thanks Cazele/OP

iwillhtfu

oxygen wrote: »

I'm always surprised in threads like this with the initial knee jerk reactions, i.e.
"Delighted for you."; " a scourge on our roads"; "He toked on your licence? bad copper"; It seems particularly prevalent on boards.ie, I think it might be a national psyche trait. On UK forums, posters often show support and side with the OP or discuss the mitigating circumstances.

I understand the law was broke here, but to not question the system leads to complacency which leads to corruptness. I remember being pulled over by an unmarked car on the side of the motorway. I was extremely nervous, they took my license to their car, ran it, etc. Eventually they just let me on my way, but in hindsight I thought to myself, I just blindy accepted their assertion they were the guards, they could have been anyone trying a scam etc... Now I know I can ask to see a warrant card, thanks Cazele/OP

It's funny how the truth tends to upset people :rolleyes:

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

And is it really necessary to stop people to fine them for using a mobile? Surely a dash cam would catch dozens of people a day (using mobiles while driving is so common now), and the screen grab should show the offence and the reg number, and the driver..... allowing a ticket to be sent in the post.

a dash cam will not see that easily through a window of another car, and not well enough to be acceptable as trustworthy evidence.

B-D-P--

oxygen wrote: »

I'm always surprised in threads like this with the initial knee jerk reactions, i.e.
"Delighted for you."; " a scourge on our roads"; "He toked on your licence? bad copper"; It seems particularly prevalent on boards.ie, I think it might be a national psyche trait. On UK forums, posters often show support and side with the OP or discuss the mitigating circumstances.

I understand the law was broke here, but to not question the system leads to complacency which leads to corruptness. I remember being pulled over by an unmarked car on the side of the motorway. I was extremely nervous, they took my license to their car, ran it, etc. Eventually they just let me on my way, but in hindsight I thought to myself, I just blindy accepted their assertion they were the guards, they could have been anyone trying a scam etc... Now I know I can ask to see a warrant card, thanks Cazele/OP

Well many people wont start a thread here because they know well they'd get bashed by those who never break the law.

I was never pleading innocent, I have put my hand up and said it was wrong.

However, people still feel the need to tell you how wrong you are to receive "thanks" and the likes.

I had a question, it was answered but the thread continues on past my question and on riotous people saying their peeves.

bk

Distracted driving (using your phone, etc.) has been found to be as dangerous as drink driving.

So you can't be surprised that people are happy to hear that the Gardai are finally cracking down on distracted driving like they should be, thus helping save lives on our roads.

Reati

endacl wrote: »

Out of uniform? So, he wasn't wearing his hat...?

You may get off this one on a technicality....

Didn't speak Irish when I asked him too aswell, so defo gettting off this time :P

Isambard

all sounded dodgy until the silver Hyundai was mentioned.

frozenfrozen

it would be a toss up between a drunk driver or texting driver who would be more likely to roll over a child who walked out in front of them in slow moving traffic

if you think your peripheral vision is good enough to keep control of a killing machine then I hope the worst you do is rear end the car in front

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ade04OFgQ4M

reduced reaction time vs not even looking or thinking about the fact they're driving


and no I'm not suggesting drunk driving is any way safe.

bobbyss

GM228 wrote:

OP, legally the Gardaí are only required to produce ID if you request them to, they do not need to be in uniform or produce ID (unless asked), that is a myth.

GM228 wrote:

(When in uniform they do not need to produce ID either)

Where is that written down?

Avatar MIA

frozenfrozen wrote: »

it would be a toss up between a drunk driver or texting driver who would be more likely to roll over a child who walked out in front of them in slow moving traffic

Point proven, not sure the motorcyclist is a candidate for Mensa either.

XPS_Zero

Cazale wrote: »

You should always request to see their warrant card if they aren't in uniform. I wouldn't have handed my license over till I was sure they were a guard.

It was grossly unprofessional for him to not show you a badge, especially in an era where we've had gangland figures impersonating cops.

Unless you see a badge and ID card you are not legally required to comply with any direction because you don't know if they're a cop or not.

GM228 wrote: »

OP, legally the Gardaí are only required to produce ID if you request them to, they do not need to be in uniform or produce ID (unless asked), that is a myth.

(When in uniform they do not need to produce ID either)

There is a difference between what they are legally required to do and what they are supposed to do. There is no law telling them to be polite to people, it's considered common sense.

The ID card and badge are in the same wallet type thing.
Id not hand over anything without seeing a badge.

A Garda badge is the same shape as the crest on the side of squad cars.

The bigger question I have for you is: Why the hell did you hand over a licence to a total stranger who didn't identify himself, didn't have running board lights on, didn't even have one of those windbreakers on....then complain that he didn't do any of those things? Surely if you had a problem with that your question should have been "who are you?"
Then it would have simply went like this:
"I'm a Guard"
"Show me a badge and ID so"
(shows badge)
"heres the license"

Why be upset about it now but not then?

You broke the law and got caught, small fine, no biggie.

oxygen wrote: »

I'm always surprised in threads like this with the initial knee jerk reactions, i.e.
"Delighted for you."; " a scourge on our roads"; "He toked on your licence? bad copper"; It seems particularly prevalent on boards.ie, I think it might be a national psyche trait. On UK forums, posters often show support and side with the OP or discuss the mitigating circumstances.

I understand the law was broke here, but to not question the system leads to complacency which leads to corruptness. I remember being pulled over by an unmarked car on the side of the motorway. I was extremely nervous, they took my license to their car, ran it, etc. Eventually they just let me on my way, but in hindsight I thought to myself, I just blindy accepted their assertion they were the guards, they could have been anyone trying a scam etc... Now I know I can ask to see a warrant card, thanks Cazele/OP

Most people don't encounter the Guards, so they natively think they only get tough with bad people. But there are incompetents and abusers in every job, and jobs that have that much power like security, military, police attract a disproportionate number of them.
They are a far more professional, well trained and cool headed force than what I've experienced in the United States who basically can now legally kill you or rob you with total impunity, so it is all a matter of context, but we should not, just because they're better than most, blindly just accept things that are not done the right way.

I was walking home one night in my own neighborhood when a Garda car zoomed right up to me and announced they were searching me under the drugs act (abuse of laws allowing cops to use drug searches as a premise for harassment are one of many reasons to get rid of drug criminalization), they had no possible legitimate cause to suspect me of drug dealing but there they went anyway. I had gotten very bad medical news earlier that day and had went for a long walk down to the beach area, they searched me, found nothing and took off. Then began following me again and again telling me to go home, threatening to arrest me if I didn't, abusing the public order act which was meant for people hanging around intimidating others or loitering in a menacing way. So they do abuse their powers and jump to ridiculous conclusions so it's not unreasonable to ask for very basic things like showing a badge.

bobbyss wrote: »

Where is that written down?

It's actually scattered in contradicting ways throughout various laws

All of them say that "if not in uniform" they need to produce ID to do xyz, implying therefore if in uniform they don't need ID (which is reasonable) and others say they need to produce one when requested then still others say produce it in order to do certain things like make an arrest without warrant.

Bottom line is they should be showing you a badge as part of ID'ing themselves when they come up to you, not to do so is grossly unprofessional and actually dangerous (to them, people could freak out and react in unpredictable ways if they think someone is impersonating a cop) but it's not gonna void a ticket in this case because the act he was fined under says "when requested". It might void an arrest for something small if it was under a different act, and that's why following procedure is important. Serial killers have gotten off because dates on warrants were one day expired, being sloppy with this stuff is unprofessional.

Bruthal

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Think of it this way, if you were walking along the street, and someone came up and stole your bag, but was apprehended by a plain clothes garda, would you be making the same arguement?

Yea, because an unidentified person in plain clothes stopping you and asking you for name and address etc, would be the exact same thing as a person in plain clothes saving you from a thief
:pac:

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Dial Hard

Can we put a note in the OP that the hat "joke" was done on the first page?

tayto lover

Two cases in the local newspaper of the Garda sending young people into pubs to buy alcohol. Pubs found guilty and hefty fines of 3K and 2K.
Wrong doers being caught by whatever means once legal is ok by me.

Avatar MIA

Dial Hard wrote: »

Can we put a note in the OP that the hat "joke" was done on the first page?

Not feeling so clever now, but at least I was the first. Bad enough being second but THIRD. Hangs head in shame *hat falls off*

GM228

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It was grossly unprofessional for him to not show you a badge, especially in an era where we've had gangland figures impersonating cops.

I would agree it is not very professional for a non-uniformed Garda not to show ID, however non-uniforned Gardaí are not required to show an ID unless you ask, or rather you are not obliged to comply if you ask and they fail to produce, that is all that matters, unprofessional or not does not take away from the fact that you are legally required to follow their direction.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Unless you see a badge and ID card you are not legally required to comply with any direction because you don't know if they're a cop or not.

Bolding and underlining that statement does not make it true.

The fact of the matter is you are legally required to comply with a direction of a Garda in uniform without showing ID, when out of uniform they are only required to show ID if you ask for one (and only in relation to certain provisions and depending on the offence or the power invoked), if you don't ask for an ID when they invoke certain powers and you refuse to comply even though it may be considered unprofessional you still commit an offence.

Failure to follow a Garda direction and allow him/per perform his duties (i.e establishing your identity or establishing if you have a driving licence) is an offence, a few freeman types have tried more than once the defence of "I was not legally required to comply as he/she didn't show ID" or similar in the courts and realised very quickly how wrong they were when they left with their tales between their legs, a conviction and a fine.

See S111 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 as amended by S49 (1)(k) of the Road Traffic Act 1994.

Identification of member of Garda Síochána.

111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under the Road Traffic Acts, 1961 to 1994, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

(a) is in uniform, or

(b) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

In fact strictly speaking the requirement to show an ID only applies to a power invoked under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 1994 (and 3 other non traffic related Acts).

XPS_Zero wrote: »

There is a difference between what they are legally required to do and what they are supposed to do.

Not really, strictly speaking Gardaí are not legally required to do anything unless they invoke the law, what they are supposed to do (as per the Garda Code) is in accordance with the law, but is discretionary - the code does not trump the law.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

There is no law telling them to be polite to people, it's considered common sense.

Actually technically there is under the Garda Síochána (Discipline) Regulations 2007 - a Garda is required to show courtesy to the public, failure to do so can lead to disciplinary actions.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Most people don't encounter the Guards, so they natively think they only get tough with bad people.  But there are incompetents and abusers in every job, and jobs that have that much power like security, military, police attract a disproportionate number of them.
They are a far more professional, well trained and cool headed force than what I've experienced in the United States who basically can now legally kill you or rob you with total impunity, so it is all a matter of context, but we should not, just because they're better than most, blindly just accept things that are not done the right way.

The cops in the US can " legally kill you or rob you with total impunity"? I don't think so. But that's a debate for another day (and another thread).

But what are the Gardaí doing that is "not done the right way"? Genuine question.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I was walking home one night in my own neighborhood when a Garda car zoomed right up to me and announced they were searching me under the drugs act (abuse of laws allowing cops to use drug searches as a premise for harassment are one of many reasons to get rid of drug criminalization), they had no possible legitimate cause to suspect me of drug dealing but there they went anyway.  I had gotten very bad medical news earlier that day and had went for a long walk down to the beach area, they searched me, found nothing and took off.  Then began following me again and again telling me to go home, threatening to arrest me if I didn't, abusing the public order act which was meant for people hanging around intimidating others or loitering in a menacing way.  So they do abuse their powers and jump to ridiculous conclusions so it's not unreasonable to ask for very basic things like showing a badge

How do you know they didn't have reasonable suspicion? They could have had a report of a description similar to yours of someone acting suspiciously or suspected of dealing which gives rise to a bona fide suspicion.

You also need to understand that the Public Order Act provision relating to loitering in a public place does not just apply intimidating others or loitering in a menacing way, they can also use this if they have a reasonable apprehension for the safety of others, or more importantly yourself, you got bad medical news and you were walking towards the beach at night, that can certainly lead to a reasonable inference.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's actually scattered in contradicting ways throughout various laws

All of them say that "if not in uniform" they need to produce ID to do xyz, implying therefore if in uniform they don't need ID (which is reasonable) and others say they need to produce one when requested then still others say produce it in order to do certain things like make an arrest without warrant.

There are currently a little over 17,000 primarly and secondary pieces of legislation in force, the requirement for ID isn't scattered in contradicting ways throughout various laws, it is stated in a grand total of 4 (yes 4) different laws which all state similar to the Road Traffic Act 1961.

Most powers of arrest without warrant simply afford the the power to a "member of the Garda Síochána" and usually subject to reasonable cause etc, but they don't require uniforms, ID etc.