BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Spanish Eyes

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Get rid of the Oval junction and baby you got a stew going.

And the Kennelsfort Road junction too while they are at it.

But the N4 split Palmerstown village in two and I can't really see any way the junctions will be blocked, unless traffic is diverted via Ballyfermot Road or something. Aldi and Stewarts Hospital might have something to say about that!

Or they tunnel through, not going to happen for such a small catchment really.

L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

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Add the frequency figures for the contributing routes together and it sometimes ends up as less than 3 minutes. The only way to end up with it being more than 3 minutes would be widespread cancellations, every single day. Which would result in the operator being booted off the contract. Remember this won't be old Dublin bus running it, they may have a bulk of routes but they'll be on a fixed payment SLA basis to the NTA

The Luas runs at 3 minute peak frequency already - its not earth shattering.

Stephen15

Patww79 wrote: »

It's not just times on a page, it's getting off a bus and trying to get another one at an absolutely mobbed stop where there's already 50 people already ahead of you waiting for the same bus. It's an absolute shambles. A bit of a longer journey is easily acceptable when you can get on and then get off where you're going.

But yeah as he said, that's ok so long as you're only screwing the Lanzarote crew rather than someone who likes swirling wine and hawhawing in Ghent.

If the system is efficient bus stops won't be "absolutely mobbed". If lets say there is a bus every 5 mins from one of these hubs there would be a good flow of people at these hubs and if in the worst case scenario a bus is full and no more can get on then it will only be a short wait for another which those people can get use.

TheChrisD

jlang wrote: »

For Ongar, renaming the 39 into B1 and B2 still gives a loopy service and you seem to still have to go via Blanch SC.  For those going to town, an option to go out onto the N3 at Littlepace and on to the B spine that way would seem preferable - but the 265 that does that only goes as far as the Blanch Centre: exactly where you might be trying to bypass! I can't download a Peak time map at the moment but there will presumably still be a peak time express option that avoids it.

Main thing is they want all the main "B" buses to stop at the Centre, since it's the main interchange and focal area. While the option of a "B3" going back out onto the N3 and then turning down towards Ongar passing Littlepace might be an idea, I doubt it'll take much longer than the B1 anyways.

No peak-hour special for Ongar, though.

L1011 wrote: »

Dunboyne already handles indirect trains to the city very well, I'm sure the residents can figure that out for buses...

Not to mention the concept of "265 to Blanch, B bus to town" is a lot easier to remember than the current amount of wacky train combinations...

Zebra3

Last thing we need is bus stops being mobbed. Imagine people end up using PT??!!!

OldMrBrennan83

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L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

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People go for it all over the world. We are near unique in using Victorian concepts still - actually, the Victorians had better network ideas as the rail system shows us!

Allowing those who demand door to door services to make decisions is why our public transit system is in a mess.

OldMrBrennan83

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Phil.x

thomasj wrote: »

The 39a route will be split into 2 routes

B1 - will run as the usual 39a far as centre, then after the centre will then follow the current 39x route to ongar

B2 - will run as the usual 39a as far as centre, then follow the current 39 route to ongar

There will be also a peak hour express bus from hartstown to ringsend

What about the people in ongar, allendal and surrounds, hartstown is 1.5km from ongar.

L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

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Absolutely nobody is getting screwed here. A few people who want to cling to the past are getting a little upset.

Stephen15

An issue I see with this project is how are they going to implement it. They can't implement such a large project overnight and have all the infrastructure in place with interchanges etc.

But at the same time if they implement these proposals phase by phase they could run into a lot of short term problems which could jeopradise the whole the project as a whole. One of these I see is buses which are meant to connect with with one another not coming into operation meaning that those routes could be useless until a connecting bus route comes into to operation.

Eg a feeder bus between an area and a hub comes into operation before the main routes from a hub are introduced would mean it would be a useless bus carrying little passengers until a route from a hub starts operating.

L1011

Stephen15 wrote: »

An issue I see with this project is how are they going to implement it. They can't implement such a large project overnight and have all the infrastructure in place with interchanges etc.

But at the same time if they implement these proposals phase by phase they could run into a lot of short term problems which could jeopradise the whole the project as a whole. One of these I see is buses which are meant to connect with with one another not coming into operation meaning that those routes could be useless until a connecting bus route comes into to operation.

Eg a feeder bus between an area and a hub comes into operation before the main routes from a hub are introduced would mean it would be a useless bus carrying little passengers until a route from a hub starts operating.

Infrastructure can be built before altering existing services

It is going to have to be implemented spine + associated services by spine basically. Some services are effectively unchanged and some are effectively independent and of use even without everything else - the 259 Confey to Hazelhatch would be of benefit if it started tomorrow, connections only assist it

OldMrBrennan83

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Spanish Eyes

We will get used to it I suppose. If it happens!

Don't know what the public consultation will bring to the surface, but if negative, betcha the local politicos, activists and so on will bark this thing down as far as they can.

The negativity about any big infrastructure project in this country is unreal. Takes years, whereas in other countries it would be implemented within months, well the bus thing anyway. All it takes is money and leadership. Shane Ross where are you??

Give it a chance. If it proves to be a total disaster, it can be fixed. I am quite sure the operation of this will be monitored for success and all parties involved will be held to account. The PT user is the king here.

Phil.x

Seriously who came up with using the blanch centre as a hub! Do people forget the gridlock at Christmas time and now this genius want more buses crammed in there, journey times will double, people will be saying remember the good days when it only took 80mins to get home.

What they needed is more 39x buses and not a life altering experience of going through the bloody shopping centre carnage.

Stop the bus I want to get off.

Stephen15

L1011 wrote: »

Infrastructure can be built before altering existing services

It is going to have to be implemented spine + associated services by spine basically. Some services are effectively unchanged and some are effectively independent and of use even without everything else - the 259 Confey to Hazelhatch would be of benefit if it started tomorrow, connections only assist it

True but if you're removing direct radial buses from an area to be replaced by feeder buses then certain areas won't have any bus routes for a period of time if the the current are removed and the new ones are waiting to be introduced.

L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

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Which is never going to happen.

You are pig-headedly refusing to accept that anything is changing other than running some services short. None of that will happen before the infrastructure and frequency is on the spine routes.

This isn't the 1980s anymore - although it does seem you might prefer it to be.

Stephen15 wrote: »

True but if you're removing direct radial buses from an area to be replaced by feeder buses then certain areas won't have any bus routes for a period of time if the the current are removed and the new ones are waiting to be introduced.

If done on a spine by spine basis, the number of existing radials that are replaced by spine+feeder on a different spine will be quite limited and can be accommodated by just continuing to operate that service until its spine is migrated.

dublinman1990

I had a look in more detail for my own routes near me in Fleurville & Newtownpark Avenue.

The 225 is the most frequent service here when provided during the weekdays. On weekdays; it will be a bus every 15 minutes each way from 6am to 11pm. For Saturdays; it would be 15 minutes each way from 9am to 7pm. Outside of those hours; it is 20 to 26 minutes each way. On Sundays; it would be offered at a minimum of every 30 minutes and maximum of 20 to 26 minutes each way. For a local bus route going between Dun Laoghaire & Dundrum; that does not seem too bad of a choice for someone if it was meant to link up with the frequent LUAS at Dundrum.

The 227 from Blackrock to Ballyogan at best is proposed as a set timetable of 30 minutes per bus each way for most of it's departures throughout the week.

The orbital route S8 from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght offers it's best service during the weekdays. Through this period of the week; it is every 15 minutes during peak times and every 20 to 26 minutes during the off peak. It has a set timetable of every 30 minutes throughout most of Saturday & Sunday which is fine.

All in all it looks like a great improvement from my point of view. Anyone living from Carysfort Avenue up to Leopardstown Road or from Coppinger to Rowanbyrn could be very much delighted with these proposed improvements in their bus service. The area stretching from Carysfort Avenue to Leopardstown Road, apart from the N11, has been knowingly deprived of a Sunday bus service since the 6/6A last ran with CIE in the late 1980's. This for them could be very much a welcome development that there will be more buses being provided in their area especially during the weekends.

Cookie_Monster

The 7 seems to be a bit of an oddity under this, hanging in there as a numbered route when it could have been a corridor. And cut back on the southern end at the DL hub (fair enough) but having a and b subsets at a vastly extended northern end... Bit of a mad diversion through the CC as well.

icdg

L1011 wrote: »

Infrastructure can be built before altering existing services

It is going to have to be implemented spine + associated services by spine basically. Some services are effectively unchanged and some are effectively independent and of use even without everything else - the 259 Confey to Hazelhatch would be of benefit if it started tomorrow, connections only assist it

Unfortunately that one (which is an extremely valuably needed service for the Easton Road area in particular) is likely to get lost in the almighty furrow that will occur when Confey residents (and local politicians) realise that the (well fought for) 66a is getting axed (except for one peak service each way). The fact that the report admits that the 259 will have to use a minibus (given the history of previous minibus usage on CIE) won’t help the cause one bit.

L1011

The 259 being extended to the previous 66A terminus won't be hard. Its also likely to be a midibus like a Streetlite not an actual minibus. Actually I'd presume that getting it extended removes any need for a smaller bus anyway.

XPS_Zero

marno21 wrote: »

On Six One just there, RTE began the report on how Dunboyle will lose its direct service to the city centre and instead have to interchange in Blanchardstown.

It's little wonder these projects get drowned in misinformation, false myths and outrage by people who don't know what they're talking about who have been told stuff by people with a vested interest in keeping the status quo or who are misinformed themselves.

I'm working for a TD and around politicos all the time and I can already see moaning coming in via email:


-"I'll have te walk more te get te a stap!"
-"I'll have to change busses where now I can just get on a bus outside me door and go str8 in!" (IMO failure to explain why changing is good will be what kills this plan, the NTA MUST explain this properly - explain how common it is via the tube and other busses in other countries and works better)
-"people will have to learn new routes all over again"....right...so? People had to learn how the Luas worked, how LEAP worked etc should we not have done them to avoid the temporary teething period?


It's critical for the wonks at the NTA to constantly keep in mind that our political culture is parish pump 'everything local' will tear this to shreds. Ambitious TD's who know local and general elections are 1-2 years away will start hacking this up looking for exceptions to their bit. If you want a sense of how this will be torn to bits and totally ruined go look at the very minor common sense changes on the 7 and 84 routes when they were connecting them to the Luas, avoiding meandering winding housing estates etc. A walk around the corner and down the street was presented as some kind of unbearable hike for seniors and you had the RBB types out in force.


Look at how metro (the resold version of the same plan FF had in 2007) which already had it's route planned and sorted finally IN THEORY got back on track then not a minute later "ahhh now dats gonna cross our GAA pitch" (TD x calls for a diversion). This is why I think we should switch to a PR list or at least MMPR system like Germany so our politicos will have a NATIONAL focus, too many major strategic projects get ruined or pulled apart because of how it will affect one block or town in someones constituency who happens to be an independent or "deputy lord mayor" or some other bollox title.


I remember when the 45 route around my old area got axed and replaced with combo of other routes people acted like the sky was going to fall, but a much more frequent 145, better 45a and 84 no longer being such a nightmare replaced it and all was well.

Stephen15

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I had a look in more detail for my own routes near me in Fleurville & Newtownpark Avenue.

The 225 is the most frequent service here when provided during the weekdays. On weekdays; it will be a bus every 15 minutes each way from 6am to 11pm. For Saturdays; it would be 15 minutes each way from 9am to 7pm. Outside of those hours; it is 20 to 26 minutes each way. On Sundays; it would be offered at a minimum of every 30 minutes and maximum of 20 to 26 minutes each way. For a local bus route going between Dun Laoghaire & Dundrum; that does not seem too bad of a choice for someone if it was meant to link up with the frequent LUAS at Dundrum.

The 227 from Blackrock to Ballyogan at best is pretty much proposed as a set timetable of 30 minutes per bus each way for most of it's departures throughout the week.

The orbital route S8 from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght offers it's best service during the weekdays. Through this period of the week; it is every 15 minutes during peak times and every 20 to 26 minutes during the off peak. It has a set timetable of every 30 minutes throughout most of Saturday & Sunday which is fine.

All in all it looks like a great improvement from my point of view. Anyone living from Carysfort Avenue up to Leopardstown Road or from Coppinger to Rowanbyrn could be very much delighted with these proposed improvements in their bus service. The area stretching from Carysfort Avenue to Leopardstown Road has been knowingly deprived of a Sunday bus service since the 6/6A last ran with CIE in the late 1980's. This for them could be very much a welcome development that there will be more buses being provided in their area especially during the weekends.

There seems to a bit of a disparity in where the local services are going. Everthing coming the likes of Sallynoggin, Glenagery, Loughlinstown and Killiney is going to Dun Laoghaire and everything coming from the likes of Carrickmines, Cornelscourt and Cabinteely is going to Blackrock.

The 226 takes a direct from Kilternan to Blackrock and the 227 takes a less direct route from Ballygoan to Blackrock going via Pottery Rd. and Fleurville and Carysfort Ave. Both taking a similar route to the current 63 as far as Cornelscourt. The 229 takes a similar routing as the 111 as far as Rochestown Ave. then taking a similar to the 63 as far as DL.

To me DL is a far more popular destination than Blackrock. What I reckon is the 229 should take the same route as the 227 from The TEK Roundabout and the 227 should go to DL from TEK Roundabout pretty much the same as the current 63 which provides a good local bus service at present. This would balance out the situation as in the proposals the only hub you can get to from The Graduate is Dun Laoghaire and on the other hand the only hub you get to from Dunnes Cornelscourt is Blackrock so for me a good variety of hubs would be good.

A strange looking new route in these proposals is the 213 which going from UCD to Bray via Enniskerry sounds a bit like a magical mystery tour to me

LionelNashe

I occasionally travel from near Ongar to near Dorset Street & vice versa - The O route along the NCR will be handy; I can take it as far as Hanlon's corner and change to a B1, as opposed to walking into Aston Quay from Dorset Street to get the 39.

Another trip I take occasionally is now door-to-door (well, there's a 100-meter walk to the stop) and on a 10-15-minute frequency, whereas before, there was a few minutes walk on each end and lower frequency.

The E2 to Ikea is more direct than the no. 13. (I find myself wanting to buy picture frames and bookcases quite often lately.)Or, I can connect to the E corridor around Phibsboro via a couple of other routes if I don't fancy walking to Parnell Street/O'Connell Street.

I occasionally go to Enniskerry by bus, and that will no longer be direct, but the current frequency is every 60 minutes. The new trip will probably mean a Luas from Parnell Street to Sandyford and then a 40-minute-frequency bus from there to Enniskerry, which could be better.

Based on that not-very-scientific sample, if the frequency works, then the changes work for me.

No word on a roll-out date, I suppose?

loyatemu

RTE etc will always interview existing bus users who'll generally moan about having to change buses or having to walk 5 minutes extra (usually OAPs who are not generally in a rush anyway). They should also be interviewing car drivers and asking them whether improved public transport will get them out of their cars.

They're redesigning the network to increase capacity and make it more usable and to attract new users, but existing users always fear change (ask any developer or designer who has tried to change an application or website; or any store manager who has changed the layout of a shop. People hate change).

There's actually a major increase in capacity with this plan, including increased funding (some of which will go towards employing more drivers - what's the NBRU's problem with that?). Combined with the bus corridors plan this is the biggest boost to bus transport I can ever remember, but only a fool would plough more money into the existing dysfunctional service - it has to be rethought from the ground up.

They really need to sell the investment aspect of this - more buses, more drivers, more and faster routes, cheaper and simpler fares.

Also - it's a consultation document, it can be tweaked but the principles should remain.

dublinman1990

There is also one glaring omission from this document and that is the 44B between Glencullen & Dundrum. A route like this appears not to be included in this new plan whatsoever. That does not appear to be good news for anyone making arrangements travelling up to Johnny Foxes pub. They may have to use the private bus service instead as well as either using a car or taxi to travel for the remainder of the journey up the mountains to Glencullen.

n!ghtmancometh

StreetLight wrote: »

Woodford is also connected to the city by the proposed Route 63, which is basically a re-route of the existing 69.

69 is currently the quickest bus to the city that serves Clondalkin, so naturally they are going to screw around with it and make it worse, not increase it's frequency. For good measure, they'll cancel the Xpresso versions too that generally get into the city in 40 mins or so. But hey, this plan has been concocted by a trendy consultant/creative type who use the Twitter hashtags and all that jazz so what do we, the people who actually use the services, know sure?

Stephen15

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There is also one glaring omission from this document and that is the 44B between Glencullen & Dundrum. A route like this appears not to be included in this new plan whatsoever. That does not appear to be good news for anyone making arrangements travelling up to Johnny Foxes pub. They may have to use the private bus service instead as well as either using a car or taxi to travel for the remainder of the journey up the mountains to Glencullen.

Interesting observation. No replacement for the 161 up to Rockbrook either altough I believe that route has been terminating at Whitechurch due the closure of Edmonstown Rd. which has been closed since last November due to illegal excavation.

Perhaps the NTA are planning to replace these routes with Local Link minibuses up to communities in the Dublin Mountains.

Dyr

Patww79 wrote: »

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I remember many many years ago, dublin bus did a PR job out in Ballymun when they were axing the 36 routes, doing a spiel and handing out posters with stats, I was giving them a hard time because they're headline stats were provable nonsense and your man tried claiming the new 13 routes would be a high frequency service like the city swift routes, I said "you mean like the 39 out in blanch?" and his face went red.


We've been here before so many times and they wonder why people don't buy into the latest Great Leap Forward

Stephen15

A number of people seem to want shut down this project before it is even chance. However I do think there is a silent majority in favour however the problem is it seems a vocal minority always like to flex their muscles against a silent minority.

I think there needs to be a vocal group in favour of these propsoals as well Metrolink which people many more need to get behind as opposed to opposition groups in order to get these plans over the line. The message needs to be loud and clear that the silent majority have awakened and are not willing to give in to this sort of selfish crap from the opposition groups. Might get politicians on side in favour of the project rather than against it.