BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

punisher5112 · 25-10-2017 8:39am

bk wrote: »

What Bambi describes is the norm throughout mainland Europe. Board via any door, tag-on at one of the readers throughout the bus. You then have 90 minutes on the bus or the next bus you hop on.

Been this way more then 50 years, you don't need a smart card for it, they use to just stamp the date and time on a reusable ticket.

Of course, fare evasion happens, but it is handled by plane clothes ticket inspectors and on the spot fines. Very serious guys, you don't mess with them.
I believe the fines more then pay for the ticket inspectors and the estimated fare loses.

It is a different mindset to here. The mindset their is not to slow down the majority of honest, fare paying passengers, just to stop the odd thieving scumbag. Here unfortunately we seem to prioritise inconveniencing the vast majority because of a small minority.

The driver doesn't need to see it, s/he knows based on the tone the reader makes. Also, I don't know if it does, but what the reader read can also appear on the ticket machine. Afterall the right hand reader is linked to the ticket machine and it is actually the ticket machine doing the work.

So you think its fine that the driver can't see it....

Very bad design and idea.

People get on in bunches and walk right on by the validator or pretend to swipe a card and don't pay.... This happens a lot.

bk · 25-10-2017 9:58am

brokenarms wrote: »

Don't hold your breath. This will not be quick. If it even happens. A change in government can change everything.

I honestly don't think a change of government will change much with the transport plans. After all FF are supporting these plans and any new government would be lead by either FF or FG, so much of a muchness.

The transport problems have gotten so bad in Dublin now that simply no matter who is in government, they can't ignore it.

I believe the only thing that can stop them are a new recession/Brexit.

punisher5112 wrote: »

So you think its fine that the driver can't see it....

Very bad design and idea.

People get on in bunches and walk right on by the validator or pretend to swipe a card and don't pay.... This happens a lot.

I've absolutely no idea what you are talking about! I'm sure some DB drivers can jump in here. But they can absolutely see people at the readers and they know perfectly well what is happening from the tone the reader makes and what is on the screen in front of them.

The solution to all this is pretty simple. Lots more ticket inspectors and higher on the spot fines. Eliminate the drivers from ticketing and let them focus on safely driving the bus.

devnull · 25-10-2017 10:41am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Of course the argument no doubt is that DB own that livery, so the NTA can't just mandate its use everywhere, but then again they seem to have overcome that problem in London?

Because that problem did not exist in London.

In 1989 bus operations of London Regional Transport were divided into a number of new subsidiary companies who operated services in preparation for being sold off. After this, London Regional Transport did not operate bus services, but retained the brand and livery and became an over-arching body.

Between late 1994 and early 1995 the subsidiary companies were sold off and by this point the bus side of LRT was that of a transport authority and holder of assets which in late 1999 would be spun out into a new entity called London Buses which itself was merged into the newly formed Transport for London in 2000.

_Kaiser_ · 25-10-2017 11:45am

devnull wrote: »

Because that problem did not exist in London.

In 1989 bus operations of London Regional Transport were divided into a number of new subsidiary companies who operated services in preparation for being sold off. After this, London Regional Transport did not operate bus services, but retained the brand and livery and became an over-arching body.

Between late 1994 and early 1995 the subsidiary companies were sold off and by this point the bus side of LRT was that of a transport authority and holder of assets which in late 1999 would be spun out into a new entity called London Buses which itself was merged into the newly formed Transport for London in 2000.

So all the NTA do then is use a slightly different shade of yellow/blue? Better than the options they're running with anyway IMO

devnull · 25-10-2017 11:50am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So all the NTA do then is use a slightly different shade of yellow/blue? Better than the options they're running with anyway IMO

I can't imagine that would be a starter as I would imagine two things would happen:
a) Dublin Bus would object because it's too close to their brand and livery which is trademarked.
b) Go-Ahead would not be happy to operate in the corporate colours of a competitor.

Bear in mind that Dublin Bus previously objected to the Cityscape Open Top buses when they were green because of the fact that their own tours were also green, even if the livery itself was different and a different green variant.

lawred2 · 25-10-2017 12:21pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

So you think its fine that the driver can't see it....

Very bad design and idea.

People get on in bunches and walk right on by the validator or pretend to swipe a card and don't pay.... This happens a lot.

It seems that you completely ignored everything that was posted.

The driver should not be policing tickets. He should be driving the bus.

There were conductors on buses up until the 80s or so... we've gone backwards since then. Dublin Bus has given us the worst of all worlds.

A slow card system that requires interaction with the driver for short hops
A cash system
A slow card system that doesn't require interaction but you have to compete to get to the machine with everyone else who have to interact with the driver
Back doors that don't open or indeed have any validators
Choke points on entry so that the driver can be a half assed and harassed inspector
And we still get fare evasion

Why anyone would want to protect that system is beyond me!?

dfx- · 26-10-2017 1:02am

dfx- wrote: »

They don't need to go far to see this or have a meeting or a public consultation. You can see it in the hideous white and pink abomination in Belfast that serves as their livery - it's just up the road.

Following on from this (thereby regrettably quoting my own post)...

Just been in Coventry over the past few days and their sky blue and white livery on their fleet and especially older buses. Dreadful in the cloudy/damp showery weather.

Though some of their newer buses in all sky blue looked decent.

prinzeugen · 26-10-2017 1:46am

Stephen15 wrote: »

The fact is cashless is much better for the majority as only a miniority of people still use cash you do realise that over 70% of DB users pay by leap nowadays and those figures are from the start of the year so its probably gone up again now.

It sounds like the only person with a "me, me, me attitude" is you. What your basically saying is delay the majority of bus passengers because a miniority couldn't be bothered getting a Leap Card and still want to pay in cash to the driver.

That sir is again me, me, me attitude.

Selfish, ignorant and uncaring.

BonnieSituation · 26-10-2017 1:47am

Back to Kwajalein so.

prinzeugen · 26-10-2017 2:00am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Drivers aren't tourist information either so use your phone and free WiFi to find where you are going.

All these things would speed things up if done right.

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

BonnieSituation · 26-10-2017 2:05am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

It is MOSTLY for the residents of a city. Tourists should never be prioritised.

prinzeugen · 26-10-2017 2:08am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Back to Kwajalein so.

Sure My username survived one world war and two nuke tests. Still showing!

BonnieSituation · 26-10-2017 2:26am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sure My username survived one world war and two nuke tests. Still showing!

Mine survived the shooting in the head of a dealer and a wife returning home from work early in the morning.

orangerhyme · 26-10-2017 8:04am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

The idea behind Jarrett Walkers plans is to have a simple, high frequency network with a simple map to show you these routes and where the interchanges are.

I think bus drivers should be like Luas drivers, cut off from the passengers.
The bus system should be so simple to use that asking the bus driver shouldnt be necessary.
This along with cashless ticketing and two doors for entry and exit should speed things up a lot.

Stephen15 · 26-10-2017 8:10am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

I think the op is a bus driver. So I'm sure he or she has a lot more experience with buses in the middle of the day than you or me.

Stephen15 · 26-10-2017 8:12am

prinzeugen wrote: »

That sir is again me, me, me attitude.

Selfish, ignorant and uncaring.

How exactly?

Dyr · 26-10-2017 10:43am

orangerhyme wrote: »

The idea behind Jarrett Walkers plans is to have a simple, high frequency network with a simple map to show you these routes and where the interchanges are.

I think bus drivers should be like Luas drivers, cut off from the passengers.
The bus system should be so simple to use that asking the bus driver shouldnt be necessary.
This along with cashless ticketing and two doors for entry and exit should speed things up a lot.

Amazingly the luas works on these priniciples and so far no tourist has died from the lack of an information kiosk in the drivers compartment

Add in some actual enforcement of the bus lanes and you'd be off to a flyer

One thing that always struck me as weird is that Dublin has some really long orbital roads and routes but I don't think any bus runs the length of them

BonnieSituation · 26-10-2017 12:07pm

Bambi wrote: »

Amazingly the luas works on these priniciples and so far no tourist has died from the lack of an information kiosk in the drivers compartment

Add in some actual enforcement of the bus lanes and you'd be off to a flyer

One thing that always struck me as weird is that Dublin has some really long orbital roads and routes but I don't think any bus runs the length of them

Yeah good shout. Dún Laoghaire to Chapelizod would be a great shout wrt this.

The big one that gets me is Dorset St to Church St/Constitution Hill. It's crying out for service to avoid the quays.

LeinsterDub · 26-10-2017 12:17pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yeah good shout. Dún Laoghaire to Chapelizod would be a great shout wrt this.

The big one that gets me is Dorset St to Church St/Constitution Hill. It's crying out for service to avoid the quays.

Avoid the quays! Sure how would you go via the Pillar then? :rolleyes:

orangerhyme · 26-10-2017 2:44pm

Bambi wrote: »

Amazingly the luas works on these priniciples and so far no tourist has died from the lack of an information kiosk in the drivers compartment

Add in some actual enforcement of the bus lanes and you'd be off to a flyer

One thing that always struck me as weird is that Dublin has some really long orbital roads and routes but I don't think any bus runs the length of them

Yes exactly.

A big part of the BusConnects also is to have 2 high frequency orbital routes, so along with the normal routes will create a web of routes so in theory you can get most places with one change of bus and without going through the city center i.e. lucan to swords etc

Look up Jarrett Walkers blog - they do this in every city - a basic color coded map of the high frequency routes at every bus stop.

Id like to know the ratio/ % of time a bus is at stops (dropping people off, picking up people, selling tickets, giving directions etc) to actually driving.
This needs to be reduced as much as possible.

Dyr · 26-10-2017 2:55pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Id like to know the ratio/ % of time a bus is at stops (dropping people off, picking up people, selling tickets, giving directions etc) to actually driving.
This needs to be reduced as much as possible.

I've timed it a few times on Saturday mornings when traffic is light, its was about a third to half of the journey spent on stops

devnull · 26-10-2017 3:20pm

Bambi wrote: »

I've timed it a few times on Saturday mornings when traffic is light, its was about a third to half of the journey spent on stops

When I used to travel from city center to Ballsbridge it could be almost 50% dwell time in morning rush hour.

orangerhyme · 26-10-2017 3:39pm

devnull wrote: »

When I used to travel from city center to Ballsbridge it could be almost 50% dwell time in morning rush hour.

Is that the technical term "dwell time" and it doesnt include stopped in traffic or at lights?

50% is terrible so.

devnull · 26-10-2017 3:46pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Is that the technical term "dwell time" and it doesnt include stopped in traffic or at lights?

People getting on and off in the middle of morning peak.

Regularly was at least a third of the journey time before Network Direct, then they cut the 4 frequency back from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes which led to an increase in dwell time, most notorious stops were O'Connell Street, O'Connell Bridge, College Green and Nassau Street.

Of course though, over the whole of the route from terminus to terminus the dwell time would have been far less than 50% because the majority of the dwell time accounted for 4 exceptionally busy stops.

punisher5112 · 26-10-2017 8:04pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

It takes too much time....

A driver is there to drive and in all honesty s/he has enough things to be doing then holding peoples hands.

lawred2 · 26-10-2017 8:11pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but they are. Again try bus during the day. Maps have been around for 1000s of years. Don't need WiFi or Google.

Paper map and spoken directions.

The bus is not just for you going to and from the 9-5.

If you want A to B without hassle get a taxi! Me, me, me again!

If someone needs hand holding about the city then maybe they are the ones that should consider a taxi.

punisher5112 · 26-10-2017 8:27pm

WiFi is fitted on all buses and 90% or more have phones that can access google maps etc....

It gives them exactly the location they are and will even tell them where to get off.

Sure earlier had one look to be told where to get off after eventually getting it out of her where she wanted. Near to where she should get off I'm told so this is the stop.... No 2 more then your there.... Then she comes up oh yeah I usually get another bus but get this the bus stops in the exact same place and its right beside a big shopping centre. I still then needed to tell her to get off even after telling her it was her stop and point her to where she was to go even though as I said she mentioned she got another bus to the exact same stop many many times before........

D8 boy · 26-10-2017 9:31pm

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is seeking people’s views regarding the design of a bus livery for Go-Ahead's buses: https://www.research.net/r/BusConnects

Personally I don't link any of the 4 options: to me the use of white looks a bit cheap. Is there an option to use the current DB livery and just change the logo and legal lettering?

Cookie_Monster · 26-10-2017 9:33pm

D8 boy wrote: »

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is seeking people’s views regarding the design of a bus livery for Go-Ahead's buses: https://www.research.net/r/BusConnects

Personally I don't link any of the 4 options: to me the use of white looks a bit cheap. Is there an option to use the current DB livery and just change the logo and legal lettering?

Already a thread on this and it's not just GA livery, its all livery, replacing DBs and all.

devnull · 26-10-2017 9:56pm

D8 boy wrote: »

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is seeking people’s views regarding the design of a bus livery for Go-Ahead's buses: https://www.research.net/r/BusConnects

Personally I don't link any of the 4 options: to me the use of white looks a bit cheap. Is there an option to use the current DB livery and just change the logo and legal lettering?

Been previously explained, but I would imagine two things would happen:
a) Dublin Bus would object because it's too close to their brand and livery which is trademarked.
b) Go-Ahead would not be happy to operate in the corporate colours of a competitor.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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