BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

howiya

prinzeugen wrote: »

This is the attitude I am on about. When was the last time you were on a bus in Dublin during the day?

Did you even notice the other passengers? How many OAPs do you think own a mobile or use the internet? Not that many.

Most people that use the bus only do so at peak times so all they see is suits and students.

Because that is all they see, they presume that they are the only people that use the bus.

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.

How are OAPs relevant to the discussion about going cashless?

I don't think we should go cashless until the alternative is easily accessible. The idea that you have to drop a tenner to buy a leap card before you get a bus is ridiculous.

brokenarms

prinzeugen wrote: »

This is the attitude I am on about. When was the last time you were on a bus in Dublin during the day?

Did you even notice the other passengers? How many OAPs do you think own a mobile or use the internet? Not that many.

Most people that use the bus only do so at peak times so all they see is suits and students.

Because that is all they see, they presume that they are the only people that use the bus.

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.

Are you aware that OAPs have a free travel pass.

Its only the worker bees and school kids that cough up the cash...

lawred2

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The bus driver is a second validator!

I don't know how many times I have gone up the left hand side of the bus while there is a throng queuing on the right hand side.

I usually get a seat as a result so I'm okay with the idiocy.

That almost never happens. The queue is always with the driver as far as I can see. Especially in city center stops where people are doing short hops and don't want to pay full fare on the card.

I have not once seen the situation you describe.

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.

The fact is cashless is much better for the majority as only a miniority of people still use cash you do realise that over 70% of DB users pay by leap nowadays and those figures are from the start of the year so its probably gone up again now.

It sounds like the only person with a "me, me, me attitude" is you. What your basically saying is delay the majority of bus passengers because a miniority couldn't be bothered getting a Leap Card and still want to pay in cash to the driver.

punisher5112

There should only be one validator and that should be beside the driver.

Terrible machines and outdated tech is why the ones we have are so slow.

The validator beside the door is so far back the driver can't even see it.

liger

punisher5112 wrote: »

There should only be one validator and that should be beside the driver.

Terrible machines and outdated tech is why the ones we have are so slow.

Afaik DB got into a bad deal with the wayfarer provider, They paid upfront in the contract and are low on the priority list for upgrades to software etc because the company involved gets nothing extra from DB.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Of course it won't happen, because it would lead to fare evasion on a scale never seen before.

It's DB/NTA's job to catch/prevent fare evasion. While there is fare evasion on the Luas a tag on/off system it's also prevalent on DB with people asking for the smallest fare and misused of the free travel pass as it stands. Other cities have a tag on/off trust system and they work just fine

LeinsterDub

prinzeugen wrote: »

This is the attitude I am on about. When was the last time you were on a bus in Dublin during the day?

Did you even notice the other passengers? How many OAPs do you think own a mobile or use the internet? Not that many.

Most people that use the bus only do so at peak times so all they see is suits and students.

Because that is all they see, they presume that they are the only people that use the bus.

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.

Which part of the process of

1. Take out card
2. Hold it against the reader

Do you think people are struggling with ?

loyatemu

prinzeugen wrote: »

This is the attitude I am on about. When was the last time you were on a bus in Dublin during the day?

Did you even notice the other passengers? How many OAPs do you think own a mobile or use the internet? Not that many.

Most people that use the bus only do so at peak times so all they see is suits and students.

Because that is all they see, they presume that they are the only people that use the bus.

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.

OAPs have a pass, they don't have to pay anyway. Many of them have do have mobile phones too - you're the one assuming they're all technologically incompetent and wouldn't be able to handle touching a card to a reader (if they had to, which they don't).

re: the cost of the Leap card - the obvious answer (which they've gone with in London and which NTA have already said they will be doing here) is to use contactless debit cards, which pretty much anyone with a bank account already has.

punisher5112

Thing is one doesn't even need to take card out of purse,wallet or back of phone as the machine will read them once no similar card or bank card is on the same side.


People fumbling for change or just stand staring through the driver is a classic.

Really its very simple you see bus or know its going to arrive have fare or card ready and away you go.


Drivers aren't tourist information either so use your phone and free WiFi to find where you are going.

All these things would speed things up if done right.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

Of course it won't happen, because it would lead to fare evasion on a scale never seen before.

I was sitting on a bus that had two fare dogers on it when I posted it.

Fare evasion happens, that's why you need your revenue protection

brokenarms

punisher5112 wrote: »

Thing is one doesn't even need to take card out of purse,wallet or back of phone as the machine will read them once no similar card or bank card is on the same side.


People fumbling for change or just stand staring through the driver is a classic.

Really its very simple you see bus or know its going to arrive have fare or card ready and away you go.


Drivers aren't tourist information either so use your phone and free WiFi to find where you are going.

All these things would speed things up if done right.

People who sit upstairs at the back and wait for the bus to come to a complete stop before the get up and start making there way to the door. With the exception of reduced mobility persons.

That drives me nuts. Im sure it pisses off everyone else also.

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

I was sitting on a bus that had two fare dogers on it when I posted it.

Your idea is open to more fare evasion
- People can tag on one stop and tag off the next to pay minimum fare
- People can not tag on at all

Because the stops are so close together it is not feasible to simply lock the validators out of use as seen in other countries when the inspectors board the bus because this would entail stopping the bus whilst everyone is checked which will slow everyone up.

Then you have to take into account the cost of putting such sensors in the back of every seat and also the cost of having a large number of inspectors to enforce that people don't abuse it. By the time you cost all that out and the training and maintenance costs, any revenue you raise from catching people will be by far outweighed by additional revenue lost and extra costs.

Fare evasion happens, that's why you need your revenue protection

I agree you need revenue protection but you also need to do it in a way that brings in more revenue than it costs otherwise it actually does the reverse of what you want it to and ends up costing the business money rather than bringing extra in.

Best way for combat fare evasion on a bus is
- Flat fare tag on only to eliminate short faring evasion.
- Increase the fine for evasion to much higher than it is
- Inspections that can appear on any day, at any time on any bus in any place.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Of course it won't happen, because it would lead to fare evasion on a scale never seen before.

What Bambi describes is the norm throughout mainland Europe. Board via any door, tag-on at one of the readers throughout the bus. You then have 90 minutes on the bus or the next bus you hop on.

Been this way more then 50 years, you don't need a smart card for it, they use to just stamp the date and time on a reusable ticket.

Of course, fare evasion happens, but it is handled by plane clothes ticket inspectors and on the spot fines. Very serious guys, you don't mess with them.
I believe the fines more then pay for the ticket inspectors and the estimated fare loses.

It is a different mindset to here. The mindset their is not to slow down the majority of honest, fare paying passengers, just to stop the odd thieving scumbag. Here unfortunately we seem to prioritise inconveniencing the vast majority because of a small minority.

punisher5112 wrote: »

The validator beside the door is so far back the driver can't even see it.

The driver doesn't need to see it, s/he knows based on the tone the reader makes. Also, I don't know if it does, but what the reader read can also appear on the ticket machine. Afterall the right hand reader is linked to the ticket machine and it is actually the ticket machine doing the work.

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

People who sit upstairs at the back and wait for the bus to come to a complete stop before the get up and start making there way to the door. With the exception of reduced mobility persons.

This seems to be very much a rural / urban thing in my experience.

Whenever I've been in the UK it's noticeable that in cities people will get up in advance before the bus stops whilst many people will stay sat down until the bus stops, it's the same in Ireland to some extent as well.

devnull

First photo of the single deckers to work for Dublin Bus has surfaced

https://www.flickr.com/photos/81709772@N07/37194867994/in/photostream/

Dyr

if the public consultation has'nt even been done yet, why are they out buying vehicles already?

BonnieSituation

lawred2 wrote: »

That almost never happens. The queue is always with the driver as far as I can see. Especially in city center stops where people are doing short hops and don't want to pay full fare on the card.

I have not once seen the situation you describe.

It happens almost every single time on my routes. And I've done it on others.

Happened this morning and In fact it happened this evening (20min
ago) at Aston Quay. Right hand side packed with queue. And I slip up the left hand side. In fact someone got on ahead of me and tried to cross to the right to use the validator.

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

if the public consultation has'nt even been done yet, why are they out buying vehicles already?

These are just two to replace the WV's that Dublin Bus have.

I posted it because it may be an indicator of future direction of travel.

Dyr

BonnieSituation wrote: »

In fact someone got on ahead of me and tried to cross to the right to use the validator.

A beloved favourite move of clueless tourists (my husband is paying so im gonna stand here and block the right hand side) and skangballs

nilescraneo

The right hand queue moves quicker than the driver queue 99% of the time. All it takes is for one person to decide to fumble for change or ask for directions to Guinness factory or a hotel to slow things to a halt, whilst the people in the validator queue move through one after the other.

antoinolachtnai

All these issues are really important. But the current BusConnects project is only looking at the problem of sorting out the routes. Fares, fare collection and branding are all outside its ambit. I wonder when these are going to be dealt with, and how?

Stephen15

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

All these issues are really important. But the current BusConnects project is only looking at the problem of sorting out the routes. Fares, fare collection and branding are all outside its ambit. I wonder when these are going to be dealt with, and how?

Incorrect bus connects takes everthing into account including routes and the things you mentioned.

https://www.busconnects.ie/about/

orangerhyme

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

All these issues are really important. But the current BusConnects project is only looking at the problem of sorting out the routes. Fares, fare collection and branding are all outside its ambit. I wonder when these are going to be dealt with, and how?

Jarrett Walker's consultancy is just dealing with routes, frequency, interchanges etc., but Busconnects is everything including cashless payment, livery, BRT etc

antoinolachtnai

That is great. But what are the resources?

orangerhyme

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is great. But what are the resources?

I think in the recent budget they said 1 billion.
BRT is expensive and will take a big bite out of that.

Its the best solution for Dublin really and can be done relatively quickly.

brokenarms

orangerhyme wrote: »

I think in the recent budget they said 1 billion.
BRT is expensive and will take a big bite out of that.

Its the best solution for Dublin really and can be done relatively quickly.

Don't hold your breath. This will not be quick. If it even happens. A change in government can change everything.

BonnieSituation

nilescraneo wrote: »

The right hand queue moves quicker than the driver queue 99% of the time. All it takes is for one person to decide to fumble for change or ask for directions to Guinness factory or a hotel to slow things to a halt, whilst the people in the validator queue move through one after the other.

99% you say? And what if the left hand side is COMPLETELY EMPTY?

*spooky music*
Duh duh duh.

---

I'll be sure now to use the right hand validator AT ALL TIMES NOW after all these wise words.

Shame I never learned how to use the bus from fear of tourists hopping on 25A/Bs at Griffeen/Foxborough looking for Guinness' and the local hotel.

BonnieSituation

Bambi wrote: »

A beloved favourite move of clueless tourists (my husband is paying so im gonna stand here and block the right hand side) and skangballs

Mine are those whose the entire length of their left arm to slam dunk change in and block up the aisle and the right hand side at the same time. That takes a special kind of sap.

_Kaiser_

I see that the livery consultation is out:

https://www.buzz.ie/news/the-national-transport-authority-is-asking-the-public-to-help-pick-the-design-dublin-bus-are-258985

My thoughts... They're all pretty bad I think, but if this is what we have then B, D, C, A

Additional comments...

Honestly none of the above 4 options are particularly outstanding so I've been forced to rate them in order of "least worst"

The current livery is distinctive and stands out amongst a sea of other private operators, many of whom are using similar vehicles and indeed ex-Dublin Bus vehicles where the model is still in active use - the ALX400 AV/AX class specifically.

Rather than spend money on an unnecessary and in my opinion more ineffective livery, surely this money could be better spent on improving the quality of service itself

Of course the argument no doubt is that DB own that livery, so the NTA can't just mandate its use everywhere, but then again they seem to have overcome that problem in London?