BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

TheChrisD

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Yea, but you're going from a direct service from Dunboyne to town every 60minutes compared to one every 10 minutes, with a change.

Yea, I know that ultimately it's a lot better for level of service. It's just the niggling feeling of an afterthought that we already have a little of out here with the M3 spur already being just a Clonsilla shuttle off-peak.

I do wonder thought if there's even the service demand out here to justify taking the two buses running the regular 70 services and turning them into 270's. As it is, the hourly 270's aren't even that full; and both services do fit into the optimal range on that service performance graph.

Dyr

Bray Head wrote: »

I read all of Bus Connects from start to finish. It is really excellent. Identifies all of the problems with the network's design and has some really good ideas on how to fix them.

The only place where it is slightly lacking is a discussion of depot locations. More orbital routes and better connectivity probably mean moving one or two city centre depots to the M50.

Bite the bullet and find a way to put orbital routes on the M50 :eek:

mickmmc

Two points on the Jarrett Walker Report:

Dublin Bus operate 11,000 vehicle hours on Weekdays, 7,400 vehicle hours on Saturdays and 4,500 vehicle hours on Sundays. The report refers to the likelihood of suppressed demand on Saturday and Sunday. Weekend services should be enhanced.

Beaumont Hospital: Beaumont Hospital has low bus patronage for the number of employees working in the hospital. The report is critical of the location of the hospital. Beaumont Hospital should be downgraded as it is too close to the Mater. There is no joined up thinking; Finian Mc Grath wants to upgrade the A & E in Beaumont :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

mickmmc wrote: »

Two points on the Jarrett Walker Report:

Dublin Bus operate 11,000 vehicle hours on Weekdays, 7,400 vehicle hours on Saturdays and 4,500 vehicle hours on Sundays. The report refers to the likelihood of suppressed demand on Saturday and Sunday. Weekend services should be enhanced.

Beaumont Hospital: Beaumont Hospital has low bus patronage for the number of employees working in the hospital. The report is critical of the location of the hospital. Beaumont Hospital should be downgraded as it is too close to the Mater. There is no joined up thinking; Finian Mc Grath wants to upgrade the A & E in Beaumont :rolleyes:

The two recent timetable changes have seen a large increase in the Sunday service on the 75 (half-hourly now from 11:00 to 23:30 and extended operating hours)and also an increased frequency on the 1 from half-hourly to every 20 minutes between 11:30 and 19:30.

There are some positive developments in the service.

But the Sunday service needs upgrading across the network, with the afternoon frequencies being matched to the off-peak weekday service levels.

hippy_hop

interesting point

hippy_hop

Interest point about the Bus Depots.
Id imagine developers are licking their lips over certain depots such as Donnybrook, Ringsend and Broadstone.

LXFlyer

hippy_hop wrote: »

Interest point about the Bus Depots.
Id imagine developers are licking their lips over certain depots such as Donnybrook, Ringsend and Broadstone.

I'm sure they may well be.

But sometimes you have to accept that certain locations are strategically important in the context of operating a bus service. People forget that buses start at both ends of every route and not just one.

Donnybrook and Broadstone would certainly fall into those categories.

Ringsend provides a suitable terminus location for several routes as opposed to terminating in the city centre.

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case as DB own all of their own facilities.

hippy_hop

I think the depot behind Broadstone depot could be moved to the docklands or port since its used by Bus Eireann.
It would be closer and a better route since it avoids the city center.
Considering its location, transport links and architectual heritage, it would be much better to use the site for high density residential.

The Ringsend depot could also surely be moved a 1.5km further out to Poolbeg on industrial lands.

LXFlyer

hippy_hop wrote: »

I think the depot behind Broadstone depot could be moved to the docklands or port since its used by Bus Eireann.
It would be closer and a better route since it avoids the city center.
Considering its location, transport links and architectual heritage, it would be much better to use the site for high density residential.

The Ringsend depot could also surely be moved a 1.5km further out to Poolbeg on industrial lands.

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

brokenarms

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

hippy_hop

Its such a shame to waste Broadstone station on a bus garage. Its one of the oldest train stations in the world.
I guess a bus garage is considered light industry and based on any kind of modern city planning rational, should be moved further out to docks and ports if possible.
Id imagine Dublin Bus wouldnt mind modern, specifically built garage somewhere also.
Broadstone station is over 150 years old.

monument

brokenarms wrote: »

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

Bizarrely enough it is useful having depots at either end of the routes, given that buses start at both ends of bus routes, not just the outer end.

A mix of the two is useful.

Donnybrook in particular is a strategically important element of our transport infrastructure as it provides easy fast access to all of south and southeast Dublin as well as the city centre.

brokenarms

monument wrote: »

Why is it out of the question? Lots of the garages are on prime sites which would be better used for housing and the garages moved near to the M50.

If CIE were to sell on property, I think it would come from the 1000 of unused acres that Irish rail have. Not a fully functioning bus depot.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

It really doesn't matter, does it? It's the one site really, or am I wrong?

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sure they may well be.

But sometimes you have to accept that certain locations are strategically important in the context of operating a bus service. People forget that buses start at both ends of every route and not just one.

Donnybrook and Broadstone would certainly fall into those categories.

Ringsend provides a suitable terminus location for several routes as opposed to terminating in the city centre.

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case as DB own all of their own facilities.

Many of the locations would act better as new strategic locations for housing.

I'm at a loss as to why Donnybrook and Broadstone can't be replaced by locations further out. Even more so in the context of the review.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

It really doesn't matter, does it? It's the one site really, or am I wrong?

Many of the locations would act better as new strategic locations for housing.

I'm at a loss as to why Donnybrook and Broadstone can't be replaced by locations further out. Even more so in the context of the review.

I was putting it in context that's all re Broadstone/Phibsboro. It's two separate sites.

Absolutely not regarding Donnybrook - the location is strategic as it allows easy access for buses to both ends of the routes, inner and outer.

Moving it further out means a lot more dead running. Operationally that makes no sense whatsoever.

hippy_hop

"Dublin Bus operate seven depots in Clontarf, Conyngham Road, Donnybrook, Harristown, Phibsborough, Ringsend and Summerhill."

So, Dublin Bus has 6 depots in the city center, and another one in Harristown which is out on the M50 by the Airport.

Dublin Bus routes are currently being redesigned and modernised under the BusConnects project.

This will involve a simplified, high frequency network. These routes ( approx 5) will start on one side of the city and end on the other.

Does it make absolute logistical sense to have 6 out of 7 depots in the city center? I really wonder.
Or would it be better to have some others like Harristown at the end of routes.
Maybe keep 2 depots in the city center, 2 on the south side and then 2 on the north side, and then 2 on the west side.
These can be modern and purpose built. The money for these could be raised by selling the city center sites.

Victor

lxflyer wrote: »

What certainly should happen is a new depot in the west of the city that can facilitate routes serving the Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght areas.

There was talk of a Grange Castle depot, but I don't know how far that went. Planning permission was also applied for short-term bus parking at Docklands Station.

Any new operator of PSO routes will have to provide new garage facilities in any case

Not necessarily. I understand they are entitled to use existing depots under the directive. That said, a new operator isn't forced to use them and might not want to. Alternative, a prospective new operator could be given use of a specific depot.

as DB own all of their own facilities.

Strictly speaking, CIÉ owns the depots and let DB use them for free (I'm not sure what the maintenance / upgrade arrangement is).

LXFlyer

It was made very clear Victor last year that new entrants would not be using DB facilities. That was communicated to the unions.

DB/CIE really makes no difference - they're not owned by the NTA.

hippy_hop

Maybe develop high density housing at Broadstone Station. Keep the southern depot. Knock Constitution Hill flats and move residents into Broadstone development. Expand southern Depot into flats site. Move Bus Eireann depot to docklands and port which is much closer to Busaras.

Sell Conyngham Road (near Heuston Station), Ringsend and Summerhill and phase out to newly built depots outside city. These are perfect locations for high density residential due to location and planning requirements.

hippy_hop

"Bizarrely enough it is useful having depots at either end of the routes, given that buses start at both ends of bus routes, not just the outer end.
A mix of the two is useful."

Having 6 out of 7 depots in the city center is not a mix.

LXFlyer

Neither Clontarf nor Donnybrook are in the city centre - you're stretching things a bit by claiming that.

I've already said there is a need for another depot to the west.

Dravokivich

hippy_hop wrote: »

Maybe develop high density housing at Broadstone Station. Keep the southern depot. Knock Constitution Hill flats and move residents into Broadstone development. Expand southern Depot into flats site. Move Bus Eireann depot to docklands and port which is much closer to Busaras.

Sell Conyngham Road (near Heuston Station), Ringsend and Summerhill and phase out to newly built depots outside city. These are perfect locations for high density residential due to location and planning requirements.

You're also making it harder for drivers to get to them.

Kamili

brokenarms wrote: »

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

Land in Grange castle is too expensive, so I wouldn't see that as being an option for DB.

blah_blah_90

Donnybrook is 2km from the Canal, so we can call it "inner suburb". Anyway, thats the Bus depot land which has highest value.

Clontarf would also be valuable due to seafront location.

Also, Clontarf is not near any high frequency routes, so its location is poor strategically. It makes more sense to have depots near high frequency routes or maybe in between two routes.

Anyway, with the electrification of buses, purpose built depots will be necessary.
Drivers can get to work however they did in the past. I doubt they all live in the city center or near depots, so they must have their own modes of transport.

Stephen15

Whats the story with Bray depot I know its small what routes operate from there 84, 184, 185?

I suggest a good location for a small new bus depot on the southside would be the old ferry terminal in DL. They could also turn into a bus station/interchange and give people a proper place to wait for their bus.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

Actually those tickets are still in use in many cities across Europe. I actually it's a better system than smarts as its allows better for multi modal journeys without paying twice.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Whats the story with Bray depot I know its small what routes operate from there 84, 184, 185?

I suggest a good location for a small new bus depot on the southside would be the old ferry terminal in DL. They could also turn into a bus station/interchange and give people a proper place to wait for their bus.

You have come up with some whopper suggestions in your time. My fave being the stops on the N4 Chapo bypass, but the ferry terminal as a bus depot?

GAS!

Never mind you can't get anything build in DL on the seafront as it is, but the plans are to continue to use that area for facilitating cruise ships in summer. Not a hope of this happening never mind the awful entrance/exit points at either end. Never a goer.

Stephen15

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You have come up with some whopper suggestions in your time. My fave being the stops on the N4 Chapo bypass, but the ferry terminal as a bus depot?

GAS!

Never mind you can't get anything build in DL on the seafront as it is, but the plans are to continue to use that area for facilitating cruise ships in summer. Not a hope of this happening never mind the awful entrance/exit points at either end. Never a goer.

The cruise terminal isn't going to happen and rightly so. Ile use your words and say it was another 'whopper suggestion'. Only smaller cruise vassels ever come into DL harbour and they come in over near the east pier where the orignal ferry terminal was.

It looks like the ferry terminal is becoming a tech centre anyway.

I should put a disclaimer in my posts to say that they probably will never happen.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

A rather pedantic point seeing as the mechanics of Phibsboro 1 also work in Phibsboro 2

orangerhyme

I'm not sure how anyone in their right mind would argue that Broadstone station, a listed building from 1850, is best used as a BUS GARAGE!


Thats before even considering with the few hectares behind it, forms one of the best city center development land in the city Center, right on the Luas, 10 min walk to Capel/Parmell street, near the new DIT campus, Phibsborough new town center, New Dalymount, Smithfield etc.........