BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Cookie_Monster

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This wonderful piece of nonsense from a FF councilor appear on my doorstep today!

no pic or attachment or link...

LeinsterDub

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no pic or attachment or link...

Sorry boards rejected it for being too big. I'll upload it tomorrow.

Topgear on Dave

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Sorry boards rejected it for being too big. I'll upload it tomorrow.

What does it say?

ILBondo

Watching a replay of the Prime Time special i am aghast at the lack of balance and general nitpicking by the state broadcaster. The person in a Wheelchair is a genuine hard case which can be mitigated by higher frequency overall. However putting it in the same category as one (albeit elderly) able bodied person whose only complaint is having to walk one street over is ridiculous. There is no voice given to the people who stand to benefit from Bus Connects who now have direct East-West and Cross City routes for the first time.

Bray Head

Most people don't give a hoot who owns who owns and runs their bus service once it's frequent, comfortable and reliable.

Dublin Bus has the same poor brand identity as the banks because of decades of poor service.

LeinsterDub

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

What does it say?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17sSPisOesJo4qOhgjWla3sV_eTGUQjb5/view?usp=sharing

Anyone know of a hosting site that will allow the image to show embedded?

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17sSPisOesJo4qOhgjWla3sV_eTGUQjb5/view?usp=sharing

Anyone know of a hosting site that will allow the image to show embedded?

I use imgur.com. Set up an account, then make sure to "add image" rather than "new post", otherwise all the images get shared and anyone can rate them. Was morto when I found that out.

Dub13

Bray Head wrote:

Most people don't give a hoot who owns who owns and runs their bus service once it's frequent, comfortable and reliable.

They will start to care if the price starts to go up like the trains in the UK.

LeinsterDub

Dub13 wrote: »

They will start to care if the price starts to go up like the trains in the UK.

Prices are controlled by the NTA. If the prices go up it's the NTA/government's fault not the operator.

CatInABox

Dub13 wrote: »

They will start to care if the price starts to go up like the trains in the UK.

For all the complaints about privatisation in the UK, the actual numbers in the background tell a different story.

From the 60s to 1995, passenger numbers fell by about a third, post privatisation they've doubled. Privatisation has also brought in a much higher standard of train, better service.

Not saying that there's no flaws in the UK train market, but the idea that privatisation and privatisation alone is the cause of all ills is a bit off target.

Hotblack Desiato

British transport company Go-Ahead

I thought stirring up knuckle-dragging anti-British sentiment was SF's job!

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

For all the complaints about privatisation in the UK, the actual numbers in the background tell a different story.

From the 60s to 1995, passenger numbers fell by about a third, post privatisation they've doubled. Privatisation has also brought in a much higher standard of train, better service.

Not saying that there's no flaws in the UK train market, but the idea that privatisation and privatisation alone is the cause of all ills is a bit off target.

The privatization of UK rail has been a complete disaster. The uplift in passenger numbers from 1995 till now is not the result of any private sector know-how, it is the result of change in transport policy which favors sustainable modes more and more compared to the 1970s-1995 period when policy favored more cars.

The current set up sees fare revenue dispatched to Richard Branson's pockets, and the actual costs up upgrading and maintaining railways is socialized to the tax payer, while the same tax payer also pays the highest train fares in the world. This is not a model to follow.

The PSO tendering is the way forward, you have private companies competing for fixed price contracts to operate services and all fare revenue is kept in public hands.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

The privatization of UK rail has been a complete disaster. The uplift in passenger numbers from 1995 till now is not the result of any private sector know-how, it is the result of change in transport policy which favors sustainable modes more and more compared to the 1970s-1995 period when policy favored more cars.

The current set up sees fare revenue dispatched to Richard Branson's pockets, and the actual costs up upgrading and maintaining railways is socialized to the tax payer, while the same tax payer also pays the highest train fares in the world. This is not a model to follow.

The PSO tendering is the way forward, you have private companies competing for fixed price contracts to operate services and all fare revenue is kept in public hands.

Yeah, I actually wanted to state that privatisation wasn't the sole cause of the uplift either, but forgot, sorry. Managed correctly, privatisation can work (in certain areas), but it wasn't in the UK (tendering on the basis that passenger growth will always, always go up is absolutely mental).

PSO is definitely the way to go though, I agree.

shaddupayaface

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Reading Twitter it looks like Fianna Fáil have declared war on BC

The whole idea was Fianna Fails in the 1st place and shelved it due to IA threats from unions back in 2008 before NTA was even established.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/on-the-buses-1.895315

LeinsterDub

shaddupayaface wrote: »

The whole idea was Fianna Fails in the 1st place and shelved it due to IA threats from unions back in 2008 before NTA was even established.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/on-the-buses-1.895315

BC isn't about privatisation!

Bray Head

The public/private ownership debate is irrelevant.

It is about separating the purchase of services from the delivery of services, and making sure that there is good-quality, external quality control.

shaddupayaface

LeinsterDub wrote: »

BC isn't about privatisation!

You and I both know that. It's the pbp's and nbru's of today that are jumping on that bandwagon because they've no other argument against the plan. The initial appetitive for a reliable and efficient bus network for Dublin came about when FF were in government. Now that we have a decent proposal to do just that, they are opposing it.

Kh1993

2 pages in the Herald today about BC. Gives it a fair hearing.

Except, once again, in his opinion piece, Noel Rock claims the Swords Road in Santry at the Omni is going to become a “one way system”. How on earth can’t a government TD get his facts right?

Qrt

Kh1993 wrote: »

2 pages in the Herald today about BC. Gives it a fair hearing.

Except, once again, in his opinion piece, Noel Rock claims the Swords Road in Santry at the Omni is going to become a “one way system”. How on earth can’t a government TD get his facts right?

Wasn't that one of the major proposals in the infrastructure proposal? He wouldn't be entirely wrong if he's talking about BusConnects as a whole.

devnull

Kh1993 wrote: »

2 pages in the Herald today about BC. Gives it a fair hearing.

Except, once again, in his opinion piece, Noel Rock claims the Swords Road in Santry at the Omni is going to become a “one way system”. How on earth can’t a government TD get his facts right?

I think the thing is that people drag a lot of stuff in related to the network review that is not part of the network review and is part of a different part of the project. We've seen this quite a bit in the past but I have to say, Noel Rock has come out with a bit of things like this in the past, so I'm not really hugely surprised.

The problem is there is a lot of fear being spread in relation to this plan and what it entails and that is ultimately what could derail it. I think the intentions behind BusConnects are good. Certainly there needs to be some tweaks and changes to make things better and solve obvious issues, but overall it should be a big step forward.

Zebra3

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I thought stirring up knuckle-dragging anti-British sentiment was SF's job!

When have SF ever done that?

Chivito550

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1269/map2-final-all-day-network-a0-main.pdf

I found the map above. I don’t have the time to read through this thread. Can somebody explain to me how exactly I will benefit from these changes regards taking the 16 from Brehon Field Road (terminus) to town. Right now it comes every 10 to 15 minutes. Now I’ll have to take the A3, which involves an extra 5 minute walk, a scenic route at the start, and still only 10-15 minute frequency.

Also the S8 according to this is every 20-25 minutes, but Shane Ross says 8-10 minutes on the spiel he posted in my door last week. So this is confusing.

The A3 to the Balally LUAS is a nice addition, but overall I don’t think I’m benefiting from these changes, though no doubt others are.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1269/map2-final-all-day-network-a0-main.pdf

I found the map above. I don’t have the time to read through this thread. Can somebody explain to me how exactly I will benefit from these changes regards taking the 16 from Brehon Field Road (terminus) to town. Right now it comes every 10 to 15 minutes. Now I’ll have to take the A3, which involves an extra 5 minute walk, a scenic route at the start, and still only 10-15 minute frequency.

Also the S8 according to this is every 20-25 minutes, but Shane Ross says 8-10 minutes on the spiel he posted in my door last week. So this is confusing.

The A3 to the Balally LUAS is a nice addition, but overall I don’t think I’m benefiting from these changes, though no doubt others are.

The map only shows frequencies at noon. Download the full BusConnects report and on page 140 there's a chart of frequencies for the orbitals. S8 has a 15 minute frequency between 7-9am and 3-6pm.

According to Google Maps, the 16 from Breton Field Road to Westmoreland Street at morning rush is a 53 minute journey.

Hard to estimate the exact speed of the BusConnects alternative, but the S8 should get you to Sandyford Luas stop in about 15 minutes from the same starting point (it depends on how many stops it has to make between those two points). Then it's 30 minutes on the Luas to Westmoreland.

A small journey time saving there, but realistically what you're getting is more consistency and reliability. I'd imagine there's a lot more delays that can happen to a bus travelling as far as the 16 does, compared to a much shorter bus journey and then a Luas journey.

Chivito550

MJohnston wrote: »

The map only shows frequencies at noon. Download the full BusConnects report and on page 140 there's a chart of frequencies for the orbitals. S8 has a 15 minute frequency between 7-9am and 3-6pm.

According to Google Maps, the 16 from Breton Field Road to Westmoreland Street at morning rush is a 53 minute journey.

Hard to estimate the exact speed of the BusConnects alternative, but the S8 should get you to Sandyford Luas stop in about 15 minutes from the same starting point (it depends on how many stops it has to make between those two points). Then it's 30 minutes on the Luas to Westmoreland.

A small journey time saving there, but realistically what you're getting is more consistency and reliability. I'd imagine there's a lot more delays that can happen to a bus travelling as far as the 16 does, compared to a much shorter bus journey and then a Luas journey.

Yeh, tbh going to work in the morning I just walk the 21 minutes to Balally LUAS (I’m a fast walker) and coming home I coordinate with the 14 leaving Dundrum to save much of the uphil walk back when I’m tired.

I only use the 16 to town off peak, which tends to fly in in around 30 minutes or so, so the new system will get me there slower now during these time periods. Same if I wanted to head to Terenure.

Also I can’t figure out Celbridge routes as I go there frequently. Instead of the 67 or 67x, what’s the new route and is it a time saving?

Not complaining. If it benefits the majority then I’m happy, but I’m not seeing many benefits to me I must say.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh, tbh going to work in the morning I just walk the 21 minutes to Balally LUAS (I’m a fast walker) and coming home I coordinate with the 14 leaving Dundrum to save much of the uphil walk back when I’m tired.

I only use the 16 to town off peak, which tends to fly in in around 30 minutes or so, so the new system will get me there slower now during these time periods. Same if I wanted to head to Terenure.

Also I can’t figure out Celbridge routes as I go there frequently. Instead of the 67 or 67x, what’s the new route and is it a time saving?

Not complaining. If it benefits the majority then I’m happy, but I’m not seeing many benefits to me I must say.

Well with regard to the 16, the new A3 will have a 10 minute frequency between 7-8am and 5-6pm, with a 12 minute frequency between 8-9am. So there is a slight frequency improvement for you should you use that route. You could also take the S8 to Stonemason's Way and then swap to the A3 there, which would essentially replicate the 16 route.

Ultimately your particular area is going to benefit most from an increased frequency feeder route into the Green Line Luas, as well as a hugely improved orbital service - currently the 75 is infrequent and has a massively meandering route to Dun Laoghaire, and there is zero orbital connection to Tallaght (and therefore the Red Line, Citywest and the lots of jobs out there). The S8 will add a much higher frequency service to Dun Laoghaire with a much more direct route, and an actual connection to Tallaght.

For Celbridge, well it depends where you're talking about going from. If it's the city centre, as you currently have to go via to get there, you'd take the C spinal route, specifically the C4. That seems to be the closest replacement for the 67.

If it's from Breton Field Road, well you actually have options now! S8 to Tallaght, then you could swap to the W2 from Tallaght to Liffey Valley, and from there transfer onto a C4 out to Celbridge. Now the N4 corridor is actually a really fast one for buses, so this might be one of the rare cases where the orbital route takes longer than going into town and then back out again, but I really don't know.

Qrt

"MJohnston wrote: »

there is zero orbital connection to Tallaght (and therefore the Red Line, Citywest and the lots of jobs out there). The S8 will add a much higher frequency service to Dun Laoghaire with a much more direct route, and an actual connection to Tallaght

Whatever about the horrendous meandering route, but the 75 goes though Tallaght Village and terminates at the Sq?

MJohnston

For some vague journey time reference:
The existing 75 goes vaguely from Breton Field Road to Tallaght, via a much more meandering route and with a bit of a walk at the start. Google Maps estimates 37 minutes in total for that.
The current 76 from Tallaght to the south end of Liffey Valley takes about 23-30 minutes depending on time of day.
Then you'd currently have to walk from south end of Liffey Valley to the N4, and take the 67 to Celbridge. Google Maps calls that 27 minutes.
Total journey time is at best 1 hour 30 minutes or so. The route via the city centre currently seems to be about the same as that if not longer.

For the BusConnects route:
The S8 would maybe be about 25 minutes for its more direct route (and no walk at the start) from Breton to Tallaght.
The W2 is about the exact same route as the current 76, except it goes direct to an interchange with the C4, so there would be a few minutes saved walking between stops. Let's call it 23 minutes anyway. Also the frequency of the W2 is 3 times that of the 76.
Then the C4 would be pretty much the same duration as the 67 apart from the walking (except again - 3 times the frequency), so maybe 24/25 minutes.
That's about 1 hour 15 minutes.

MJohnston

Qrt wrote: »

Whatever about the horrendous meandering route, but the 75 goes though Tallaght Village and terminates at the Sq?

Yes fair enough, although I was thinking about specifically what serves the poster's road and the 75 is a bit off from that.

I do think the current 75-76 combination fails at being an 'orbital' route because (a) the route of the 75 is badly meandering and more importantly (b) the frequencies of both services are not good enough to reliably be able to expect to get off a 75 at Tallaght and quickly transfer to a 76 - in fact if you timed it wrong you could be waiting up to 30 minutes.

At worst S8 to W2 is a 15 minute wait - and if they successfully sync these services up like they said they would, hopefully it'd be closer to 5 minutes wait. Add to that an actual direct orbital route. In fact, you also have options when you get to Tallaght - the W4 orbital also leaves from there and would get you to Lucan where you could swap onto a C4.

I think it's fair to say this orbital aspect is one of the indisputable improvements from BusConnects?

MJohnston

By the way, I'm looking to put all this route research to good use - I'm trying to build out a web app, an unofficial journey planner which will let people compare their existing routes to their BusConnects options. There's no good way to programmatically do this, so I'm relying on good old human powered back-end work. In other words, people will submit a request for info, then a nerd like me will go and lookup the journey info for them and they'll get a notification when it's ready to view.

I'll definitely be reaching out to this thread for anyone who wants to spare a couple of minutes a day to be a mechanical turk!

TheChrisD

MJohnston wrote: »

For the BusConnects route:
The S8 would maybe be about 25 minutes for its more direct route (and no walk at the start) from Breton to Tallaght.
The W2 is about the exact same route as the current 76, except it goes direct to an interchange with the C4, so there would be a few minutes saved walking between stops. Let's call it 23 minutes anyway. Also the frequency of the W2 is 3 times that of the 76.
Then the C4 would be pretty much the same duration as the 67 apart from the walking (except again - 3 times the frequency), so maybe 24/25 minutes.
That's about 1 hour 15 minutes.

You're also completely skipping over the option of the W8 direct from Tallaght to Celbridge via "the back roads". 18.6km, Google Maps says 27 minutes driving, so maybe 30-35 for the bus; so the whole trip could possibly be done in an hour if the interchanges are fast enough.