BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

BlueSkyDreams

I know a little off topic, but does anyone know what impact the constant saturday protests have on the bus network, considering Luas services are consistently cancelled through the day on Red and Green lines?

Its happened almost every saturday for months now, including today. Which means i drive into town now, rather than get the Luas.

Is it not possible for the city council to arrange protest routes that dont bring public transport to a halt every Saturday?

There must be impact to bus users also.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611133#Comment_121611133

What routes are you referring to (northside or southside)?

There are cancelled departures across the entire network due to driver shortage, but that has improved since last year and it’s certainly not the same routes/departures every day.

I certainly do not believe that it is as bad as half the buses not showing up along either section as you suggest (caveat - today is not a good example to pick due to the protests which are causing major disruption).

Just to add an extra point:

The individual routes are not currently operating integrated schedules. This means you can have longer gaps and then buses coming together.

As part of BusConnects the schedules are planned to be integrated with one another.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611207#Comment_121611207

They are a major nuisance as they cause massive knock-on effects with subsequent buses having to be cancelled or curtailed due to drivers and buses being delayed.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611239#Comment_121611239

Thanks.

Yes, I would have thought so.

There seems to be no end in sight to the protests and the Luas is basically not an option on saturdays anymore.

I dont understand why the council dont re-route the protests.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611271#Comment_121611271

Well I think that the hardship that some of us have to put up with today in Dublin is insignificant compared to what the people in Gaza are enduring, which is what the thousands of people marching today are protesting about.

You also have the reality that if protests were moved to less visible locations, they’d not really have the same impact on the public consciousness.

The lack of a Metro in Dublin means that no matter what, protests will cause major problems. Today’s ended up at the Department of Foreign Affairs at St Stephen’s Green which meant far greater impact across the public transport network.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611289#Comment_121611289

Yes, I dont dispute peoples right to protest.

But as its been almost every saturday for the last number of months and looks set to go on for many more, I would have thought the council might put some guard rails around the routes.

At the very least for the LUAS serivces as they obviously cant be redirected.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611431#Comment_121611431

Well it is the Garda Síochána who are responsible for giving permission for protests, not the City Council.

Given most protests involve O'Connell Street and College Green, I'm not sure how you could stop the impact through the immediate city centre on the LUAS.

But it's very rare for the Green Line not to be able to operate from Brides Glen to St. Stephen's Green to be fair though. Today was exceptional due to the extended march route to St. Stephen's Green.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611483#Comment_121611483

The Green line has been cancelled on quite a few saturdays from Beechwood into Stephens Green. Always due to the protests.

The Guards and the council could work in tandem?

Novel approach, I know...

I am surprised the city businesses arent lobbying for some controls also. Once its not Palestine, it will be something else.

john boye

Many people just don't go near town on Saturday now because of them. I would never bemoan anyone's right to protest but it must be really hurting footfall in shops in town on what is usually a busy shopping day.

cgcsb

Obviously the theoretical frequencies aren't met, never have been even before staffing crisis. The evening rush can often see 15 minute gaps in service in drumcondra. 3 minutes is a non runner. The most frequent bus routes in the world can do frequency of 2 or 3 minutes on dedicated bus ways with no junctions for long stretches.

Daith

Town was busy enough today. Well Henry St anyway. Not sure how much the protests really impact it.

Actually had more trouble with the road works at the Whitworth Road because of the works done for the cycle lane along the canal. Not bemoaning improved cycle infrastructure, but I'll be interesting to see the impact during morning rush hour for the new few weeks?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611859#Comment_121611859

I’m not sure what you are taking about, but I’ve used the Swords Road bus services for the better part of 20 years and they absolutely run to a roughly 3 to 4 minute frequency!

Of course not a single route, but at stops closer to the city served by multiple routes they combine for that frequency.

15 minute wait! Honestly can’t think of a time that has happened, maybe all Ireland match days, but super rear to wait more than 5 minutes. Usually it is a case of walk up to the stop and wait maybe a minute or two.

It is why I can’t really complain about the bus service into town in my area, it is actually pretty excellent, frequent and pretty fast in.

It was just missing the 24/7 service and orbital routes. Well we have that now with the 41 and N4 and hopefully the N2 soon.

dublinman1990

The protests in Dublin City Centre earlier today must have had a heavy impact for rugby fans who were going into to see Leinster's Champions Cup match at the Aviva this afternoon. If the fans were not living near the Dart to actually travel into the stadium; they would have to make their way to the stadium by bus instead.

For a lot of those fans today; a lot of those bus journeys to the Aviva would have made their way through the City Centre heading on into Lansdowne Road by bus or on the Dart. If a protest frequently takes place in the future around the weekends when the Irish Rugby team play at home at the Aviva during some of their matches in their Men's 6 Nations Campaign; you wouldn't be able to rely on a bus if large numbers of rugby crowds were heading into the stadium alongside you. If some of those kick-offs at the Aviva are taking place around lunchtime on a Saturday or Sunday at the same time when protests are kicking off in the City Centre; rugby fans, either Irish ones or not, are potentially going to be screwed by travelling to it either way.

The Gardai must have had a very busy day with a large number of their officers having to be split up and deployed in two places at once today with managing their jobs with the peaceful protest in the City Centre and with the rugby match taking place at the Aviva as well.

EDIT: There was about 100k people who attended today's protest in Dublin City Centre according to one of the threads about it on Reddit. I didn't attend the protest myself. But that figure is still a massive one to make an impact on bus services throughout the main centre of Dublin in a very significant way.

KD345

Protests are now a regular Saturday event in Dublin. It would serve everyone well if we introduced special Saturday arrangements on days of protest where buses operated to a special temporary termini just outside the city centre. 

Everyone knows there’s a protest on, Gardai know the roads are closing and the route that’s being taken, yet no plans are made for the thousands of passengers effected. There were complaints on X of no service inbound on the N11 this afternoon for over an hour, with similar delays on routes in Dundrum and Tallaght. The 44 to Enniskerry which operates hourly was so delayed that the next bus was running 5 minutes behind. The disruption can last for hours after the protest is finished because buses and drivers are in the wrong location. It must be a headache for controllers.

It would be far better if buses operated short to places like Leeson Street, Merrion Square. Gardener Street, Cook Street, Parnell Square etc. between the hours of 1-3pm. That way we could continue with a service along the majority of the route. This arrangement is made when there is a parade or marathon etc. With the frequency of the protests I feel it’s time it was implemented on Saturday afternoons too. It would take a bit of planning for cross city routes, but it would serve the company well, remove buses sitting idle/unproductive for hours and allow thousands of people plan their journeys. 

mikeybhoy

Thank god Just Stop Oil haven't taken off here as I believe they are holding London to a standstill

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611289#Comment_121611289

Got fcuk all to with Ireland

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613005#Comment_121613005

I see your point, but surely the answer is to manage the protest routes away from public transport hubs.

Address the problem, rather than making exception for it.

Its every Saturday now.

Turning a blind eye is discouraging users (me included) from choosing public transport and is hitting Dublin City retailers in the pocket.

We can very quickly turn the city centre into a no go zone, entirely due to accessibility.

And lets be honest. For what outcome?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611207#Comment_121611207

Wait wouldn't you get caught up in the same traffic if you drove in. Personally I'd just be avoiding town altogether on days where there's protests unless I had to be there

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613117#Comment_121613117

You could rat run around it to a point, but yes, a lot of folks will just avoid town.

I agree.

Good news for car drivers and out of town shopping centres.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613005#Comment_121613005

I was only thinking the same myself - it would probably need them to draw up new rosters for protest days but at least then the service could be maintained with accurate RTPI.

The current situation suits no one.

KD345

You’re correct LXFlyer, there would be a bit of work involved behind the scenes. Dublin Bus have a good record of being able to adapt to planned closures, in previous years they have changed rosters and schedules for a number of events. Their Marathon and St. Patrick’s Day operation is impressive.

If a large section of the city centre streets are now closed every Saturday then the relevant authorities have to adapt our public transport. Simply having no information on a website and switching off RTPI while bus schedules fall apart is not the way to go.

A few Saturdays back I missed a bus to Blackrock on Nassau Street. I was unfortunate as it was the exact time a protest started. I could see the following three buses stuck behind on the app and they never ran the route. Out of curiosity I tracked those buses later in the day and they were all massively delayed. The following Saturday I tried to catch the 6pm 74 from Eden Quay only for it to be cancelled. When I contacted Dublin Bus they said the earlier protest had delayed the bus. 

Using a bus on Saturday has become unreliable and it’s not only affecting the city centre. The idea that there’s no bus through Ongar, Dundrum or Bray for an hour because there’s a planned protest miles away in the city centre is baffling.

Having a special Saturday Disruption plan would provide clarity to passengers and allow operators to maintain a service in the suburbs. We would really only need to alter routes which are cross city. There are suitable turning points at Merrion Square for the 4, 7/A, 47, C1 and C2, Leeson Street for the 11, 46A, 39A, 145 and 155, Hatch Street for the 9, 14, 15/A/B, 16, 65/B, 68, 83, 122 and 140, Cook Street for the 13, 27, 49, 54A, 74, 77A, 151, 123, 150, Wood Quay or Smithfield for the north quay routes, and Parnell Square or Mountjoy Square for O’Connell Street routes. It would be a shame to cut routes in this way but it’s happening anyway, only it is disorganised and lasts much longer than any protest.

The alternative is that we continue the weekly scenario of buses driving towards closed streets and end up on a congested diversion with delays affecting the route for hours. Passengers are left stranded across the network, RTPI is switched off and the poor staff in Dublin Bus spend their day on social media explaining there has been no bus for an hour because of an earlier protest in the city centre. We can do better than that.

Daith

I'd agree that Dublin Bus should have a plan. I remember last year at the Pride March and Dublin Bus was relying on the Garda and rolling road closures which was always going to be a bit unworkable.

Be great when fewer buses are routed through O'Connell st

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611952#Comment_121611952

Easily 10+ min gap at peak times on this section. You will get 3-4 buses with 2-3 mins then nothing for 8-10 mins. Same cycle repeats most of the day.

Its longer off peak early mornings/weekends etc.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613702#Comment_121613702

That's because they do not have integrated schedules - they are all (save for the 41/b/c/d) scheduled independently of one another.

With the E Spine being launched, the schedules will be integrated. I'm not saying that there won't still be bunching, as that's impossible to avoid if there are delays en route, but they won't be scheduled in such a way for it to happen, and therefore it should improve the headways.

The real point is that there are already 24 buses an hour scheduled to operate along that corridor during the day time off-peak - something another poster is trying to claim never happens and could not happen. That clearly is an incorrect statement.

Midnight_EG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613605#Comment_121613605

It's not up to Dublin Bus to have a plan, the NTA set the schedule and any details related to specific days.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613899#Comment_121613899

Well it is up to both of them to be fair.

DB management have far better visibility and understanding of the operational impact of these things than the NTA.

The NTA have virtually no one in house with operational experience.

Sometimes the operator should be telling them these things.

I do think that the current contracts have resulted in a degree of operator lethargy unfortunately (and that’s all operators, and that can be understandable at times with the NTA taking a “we know best” attitude on occasion.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613983#Comment_121613983

NTA policy is take credit for anything they perceive as positive but give the blame to the operator when things go wrong

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614094#Comment_121614094

Well to be more correct, the NTA tend to say absolutely nothing when things go wrong and go into hiding.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613702#Comment_121613702

The other poster was claiming 15 minute gaps, which in 20 years I don’t think I’ve very rarely seen. 10 minutes gaps happen now and then, but certainly not as frequently as you are saying.

Last night when I posted this, I looked at a stop on the TFI live app and just now looked again and both times there was a pretty nice distribution been buses, 3 to 4 minutes between most, with just a single 7 minute gap over the hour shown.

Of course it is far from perfect and BusConnects is going to try and improve bunching by scheduling all the A routes together.

But man, coming from Cork city where my parents bus route is supposed to be every 20 minutes, but an hour wait is normal, it is night and day. My honest experience here is walking up to the stop and maybe waiting 3 minutes or so. Even the odd 10 minute wait is hardly a big deal, though it happens so seldom, I would notice it.

Having said all that, I do think the biggest mistake the NTA ever made was cancelling the Swiftway BRT plan, rather than including it is BusConnects. Big mistake IMO. With BusConnects, I suspect we really will have reached the maximum capacity of double decker buses and it probably won’t be enough. Though perhaps even 18m BRT’s wouldn’t make much difference.

Fortunately the National Development Plan does show a post 2042 expanded Luas network which shows Luas operating up the Swords Road and the other major routes into the city (though some maybe Metro). Annoyingly a long way off, but at least it is part of the plan.

Midnight_EG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613983#Comment_121613983

It's supposed to be, but it isn't and if DB or GAI were to take their own initiative then the NTA would 'fine' them.

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613899#Comment_121613899

They can raise the point with the NTA at least if they want to.

Even Dublin Bus's black hole of a complaints section on their website lists timetables and service as a category. Maybe anyone who selected that should be told to contact the NTA?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614998#Comment_121614998

No i didn’t mean that they should act unilaterally.

I meant that they should be telling the NTA what should be done in these sort of situations and jointly implementing a solution.

Instead yesterday we had an avoidable situation where controllers had a major headache trying to get the service back on track with buses and drivers in the wrong places, massive gaps in service resulting in frustrated passengers, and drivers fed up too.

That’s not good.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614307#Comment_121614307

Does anyone know how efficient a Luas is in terms of energy usage?

For example would a Luas use more energy than the equivalent electric bus in terms kw per km.

I'm just thinking in terms of climate change, is the Luas better than electric buses.

I know the Luas carries much more people than a bus.

Midnight_EG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615464#Comment_121615464

Like the concerts and private hires, DB at least HAVE tried to tell the NTA how best to run something and offer solutions but they point blank refuse to listen. Last year on the 14s they offered 15-20 busses from Donnybrook alone to work extra works for the concerts, but they said no and offered it to coach companies who offered very little. I worked it, and also attended a concert at the same time. Every journey outbound (every night) was packed by Dame Street and every inbound journey skipped Ballinteer. 5 busses in front and behind me all had the same thing, so none of us were stopping between Dame Street and Ballinteer.

The last Bray air show, we were told to put on shuttles from the station to Ballywaltrim. I was one of them, and for 5 hours I went up and down on 20 minute jaunts and took a grand total of 16 people (15 inbound and 1 outbound) between 11am and 4pm. The main street wasn't even closed, but the NTA told us to terminate 145s at the station and turn them short. Meanwhile, they still ran the GAI routes down the main street. Make it make sense?

halfpastneverr

The Saturday protests and marches are becoming ridiculous at this stage, especially for people relying on PT for work. I've started to turn down Saturday overtime now (which I need!) because it's so hard to get home after on these miserable evenings. Worked from 7am-4pm yesterday and didn't get home til after 7pm. 13 RTPI on College Green outside Habitat was showing 18 mins so I went to get a coffee to get out of the rain (no bus shelters for one of the busiest cross-city stops either, another failure) and an empty 13 sailed by as I crossed the far lights at Trinity, so RTPI was worthless. Then went and stood on Hawkins St for the 17:00 hourly 69 and waited til 17:15 for it to appear and gave up. Luas Red Line leaves me a 30-minute walk down the N7 to get home, but at least I could be somewhat sure of it actually running. But I couldn't squeeze on the first 2 that arrived into Abbey Street, finally forcing my way on the 3rd one after waiting 25 odd mins for the privilege.

I dunno what the people chanting outside M&S think they're going to achieve, but it just makes commuting even more miserable for us long-suffering PT users. DCC/AGS/NTA need to come up with some sort of solution to either hold buses short of the city centre like Paddys Day, or provide a dedicated protest area. The 'shur its grand' approach is ridiculous in this day & age, especially considering how much money has/is being spent on re-branding the bus services in the city. A lot of occasional or first time PT users use PT at the weekends & it will be incredibly hard to convince them things are getting better when this awful service is being offered up with terrible communication from providers/NTA about service disruption.

Daith

Yesterday there was an 18 min wait for the next Luas to Broombridge.

The Transport for Ireland app was showing buses running on Christmas Day.

Irish Rail didn't have any Northside Darts running on the weekend of the Dublin Marathon.

Sorry but the protests aren't the only issue with public transport and weekends, and it's perfectly possible to find a solution, especially for buses, if any of the companies involved wanted to.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617028#Comment_121617028

The protests are not the only problem, thats true.

But they are a consitent and predictable problem. They happen every Ssturday now and every Saturday they result in major delays or even curtailment of Luas services across the city centre.

The Marathon and Xmas Day are one off events and I think people have a tolerance for those (although mitigation plans should still be in place) but these protests are causing havoc every single saturday and there is no end in sight.

A designated protest area that does not shut down the LUAS lines or most cross city buses seems an obvious solution.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121616075#Comment_121616075

Great post and I sympathise with your experiences.

The protests are activley encouraging people back into cars (myself included) and are discouraging folks from coming into the city centre on a Saturday.

It doesn't take long for habits to form and I am sure the out of town shopping centres on the M50 are feeling the benefit of shoppers driving out to them, rather than facing the public transport lottery of entering the city centre on a Saturday.

I dont even consider PT on a Saturday now, unless I am heading to town in the evening.

I have used the car on more saturdays over the past 3 months than I had in probably the last 2 years combined.

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617906#Comment_121617906

Your obvious solution completely ignores people's constitutional right to peaceful assembly and the Garda are going to be very loathe to intervene here.

The best plan is for the NTA to actually deal with the issue and adjust services accordingly. That would require a much more agile mindset than they're used to.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618201#Comment_121618201

peaceful assembly doesnt mean all areas of the city are open access.

I dont advocate removing peoples right to protest, not at all.

But designated protest routes should be a compromise.

How would the NTA achieve the diversion of Luas services?

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618232#Comment_121618232

I thought your first issue was that you missed a bus because the real time display wasn't up to date. Surely that's in the power of the NTA to manage?

If you're suggesting the NTA carry on as usual and not adapt and the solution is really to decide where people can protest, more power to you.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618357#Comment_121618357

No, I didnt mention anything about real time bus info. That must have been another poster.

My point was that we need a way to keep public transport running through the capital every saturday and I dont see any other way to do this for the Luas without designating protest routes.

Protests have designated routes anyway, so is it too much to ask that the Guards/Council/NTA enable routes that allow Public Transport to continue to run?

The Luas especialy, since it obviously cant be diverted.

Failure to do anything about the problem just results in greater car dependancy as people give up with Public Transport.

Polar101

Also, there's not much point of having realtime transport information if I can't provide realtime transport information when something out of the ordinary happens. Everyone can see what's in the timetable, but the passengers need to be informed when/where the servies are actually running.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620992#Comment_121620992

Real-time information cannot tell you how long a bus is going to be delayed due to a protest march, rolling street closures or increased traffic levels. In those circumstances it becomes redundant as any predictive time will be a nonsense as the buses will just be stuck somewhere and the predictive time for further along the route will just stay the same until the buses move again.

The system works by applying the stop-by-stop timetable for each individual departure to the GPS of the bus - in other words normal traffic conditions.

Pete_Cavan

RTPI doesn't need to tell you how long a bus is going to be delayed due to a protest march, it can just give a message about major disruption to services. If a bus isn't coming there is no point in it giving the time to the next scheduled bus were it to be operating.

It's a question of credibility, if people find that RTPI is regularly incorrect and not reliable, the credibility, and therefore attractiveness, of the entire bus service suffers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622030#Comment_121622030

They can and do normally do have a scrolling message up when there’s disruption.

But for whatever reason they didn’t on Saturday.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621416#Comment_121621416

If a bus is diverted, it is still going to follow a route which has bus stops on them - feels like it should be possible to display that alternate route too. Maybe it isn't technically possible. But currently the level of information is "services are delayed - good luck!", which isn't terribly useful.

I understand if the bus is stuck somewhere, then it is pointless to display "2 min" when it could be 2 hours - but maybe the system could display "not moving" or something similar?

I mean, even normal day to day operations are frustrating for passengers using the RTPI - let alone when there's anything out of the ordinary happening. There's traffic every day.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627186#Comment_121627186

Again, how the system works is that it applies the stop-by-stop timetable that has been been drawn up for each individual departure by the bus company schedulers, based on the average journey times for the route, to the GPS location. These timetables usually change between autumn/winter and summer to reflect the different traffic conditions.

In other words, if we take a simple route like the L53 - this is the detailed stop-by-stop timetable for that route (https://bustimes.org/services/l53) which as you can see has times for every stop along the route.

So the system sees where the bus is based on the GPS, and then applies the stop-by-stop journey times in that schedule above from where the bus location is on the route to come up with predictive journey times to each stop further along the route all the way to the last stop.

For the system to work along a diversion, then you would need to have an alternative stop-by-stop timetable to be prepared in advance by the schedulers for each individual departure for that route that could be applied.

That in itself is a huge amount of work, but given the unpredictability of the journey times along a diversionary route due to protests etc., I’d suggest it’s pretty much impossible to come up with any form of accurate predictive journey times for that scenario in advance.

Hence KD345’s suggestion of splitting cross-city and other routes to terminate short of the city centre at locations where the routes would be relatively unaffected by the protests etc., and whereby an alternative “protest schedule” (prepared in advance) including alternative driver rosters could be implemented on such days to allow for a relatively normal service along the rest of tbh route with reasonably accurate predictive times.

As for the “not moving”, I’m not sure how you’d even display that on the screens even if it were possible (I don’t know).

Beta Ray Bill

Saw this, this morning on X (From the 15th of Jan Mind you)

Just goes to show how poorly planned Bus infra (and infra in General) has been.

https://twitter.com/dubslife1/status/1746955070300725426

https://x.com/dubslife1/status/1746955070300725426?s=20

Cookie_Monster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615767#Comment_121615767

steel on steel is far far more efficient than rubber on asphalt for a start so even without any hard data, yes Luas is more efficient.

Then you get into the whole heavy vehicles using batteries isn't particularly efficient. Hydrogen or trolley buses would be better than battery for energy usage also