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Here comes the Judge, my 69 GTO
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30-05-2017 4:49am#1Ok, so as you may have seen this car in the back ground of some of the Pics from either my Challenger or XB threads, I hadn’t planned a build thread on this as I don’t plan on a rebuild any time soon…. But I figured why not share anyway, this thread is lifted from some other forums I’m on, so ignore any references to things I’m about to buy or do… it’s all done now ….
Anyway I have added another car to my little Muscle car collection, to give you an idea of the timeline I bought this late last year… so here is my all original 1969 Orbit Orange GTO, it’s a 3 speed Auto with the 400ci (6.6 ltr) V8 & the big 12 bolt rear end.
It’s not a concourse show car, but it’s in really good condition for its age & has all of the original bits with it, still had the original build sheet under the rear seat (this is now framed)
I had to play garage Tetris to fit her in for now, but she’s in… a second hoist is now on my letter to Satan this Xmas, as I clearly don’t have enough space to add another car
Now, this thread will not be me stripping the car down to a million pieces & doing a frame off restoration….. (well it won’t be yet anyway), the plan is to just do the minimum to make it a nice cruiser for the summer here to enjoy some time out of the Skunk Works away from smacking the other 3 with hammers, once the others are finished then I might go mad on this on too… right now I just need fix a few things that she needs done to get her up to a level so that she’ll pass an Australian roadworthy inspection…. From my brief looking she needs:
The brakes sorted, they are real spongy right now & don’t give any confidence at all
The headlights have an earth issue & they don’t all work all the time, I’ll also swap the old 1969 sealed beams out for some fancy new H4’s or maybe even LED ones
The GEN light (generator or alt light) is constantly on & only goes out after about 30 minutes of driving so I think that either the Alt or the regulator is stuffed
There is no windshield washer bottle
There is a leak from the rocker cover gasket that drips oil onto the exhaust header on the passenger side
The passenger side header has a leak, not sure if it’s loose, cracked or if the gasket is gone
There is a slight leak from the power steering box
Once I’ve done the above list I’ll take her to a testing Engineer & see what other things they say need to be done, but hopefully my list is everything…
There are also some non-roadworthy issues that will go onto the fix soon list, they are:
The hood mounted tacho doesn’t work & as this is such a cool feature this must be fixed soon
The plug leads are way too long & wrap around the engine bay
The bearing in the pulley on the aircon compressor is on its way out & squeals like a pig & the gas needs to be replaces with non-planet killing stuff.
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Another thing that needs to be working to get an Australian roadworthy cert is the blower for the front screen to be able to defog the screen when needed? mine works fine so that?s a tick
Because the car has movable headrests they must work, so another tick..
I?m not sure how?ll I?ll go with the belts, the Challenger belts where illegal as they were a lap belt only & then a second shoulder belt could be clipped onto the lap buckle & as the second belt was only a click on & it had no buckle it had to be replaced with a proper 3 point belt?.. but this car had two complete belts per side, a lap belt & then a separate shoulder belt with a second buckle, plus the ADR?s (Australian Design Rules) change depending on the year of the car, so as this is an older car I?m going to leave them as is & see if they pass or fail
Next up was to diagnose the poor brakes, it?s pretty clear that the master cylinder is leaking here
I tested the booster & it seems fine so a new master cylinder was ordered.
The front disks look great, no big lip worn into them & heaps of meat left on the pads
The flexible line looks good too
The rear finned drums where a pig to get off
When I finally got them off there was signs of leaking on the rear cylinders, no shock I expected to find that
Looking at the plug leads again, I will need to replace them or rerun them at the least, one wraps around the steering column & I?m sure that that will be frowned on
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I was chatting to a mate today & he suggested that I will need to have the R12 (that’s Freon to you & I) gas professionally removed from the aircon system & just removing the belt is not good enough, so add that to the list
Fully charged the battery overnight but the Gen light still stays on, so I’ll get a new Alt with an internal regulator to replace the old original one
The car has no passenger side mirror, no that’s not a fail for a 69 car but it does make driving in multilane traffic fun, so my first box of new bits turned up today & in it was a new mirror (they are universal fit left to right)
The new 5.38” LED lights to replace the originals
The new brake master cylinder
A complete rear brake rebuild kit, new shoes, cylinders, springs etc
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The new windshield washer bottle… it’s tiny
A new washer motor as I have no idea if the one on the car works
And most importantly the new hood tacho
Sadly it comes as a complete sealed unit, so I’ll need to make up a tool to open these weird 3 pronged screws so that I can simply replace the guts & not have to repaint the body of the new tacho
Next box of bits is scheduled for delivery tomorrow… so I know what my weekend looks like already….2 -
So it turned out that there were a few jobs that needed to be done on the GTO, some were important safety issues like the (brakes, steering, etc) some were required for the roadworthy & engineer sign (lights, washers, belts etc) off & some were required to make the car run right like the new alternator… so where did I start…. Yes you guessed it fixing the hood tacho as I couldn’t stand the fact that that wasn’t working..
The plan was to remove the guts of the new tacho I’d bought & replace the guts of the old tacho with them to save me having to get the new tacho housing painted to match the car. The new housing was secured with these tri-point screws & I didn’t have the required special tool to undo them
What I did have was a set of sir clip removal pliers so I figured I could use them to grip two of the 3 points in the screw head & undo them
To my surprise it worked quiet well
Now to remove the old one from the hood itself
Now as you can see by the amount of silicone on this, this one was not screwed together at all… it took a bit of careful cuffing & prying but I got it apart without damaging either the inner section of the outer case
By now it was becoming clear that swapping these parts out wasn’t really going to work at all, so I test fitted the new tacho to see if it fit the hole already cut into the bonnet…. & no was the answer to that question, the bulge for the electronics is larger on the new one
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With that I bit the bullet & broke out the die grinder & enlarged the bonnet hole to take the new housing & then took it to a local panel shop to get the paint matched… it’s turned out pretty good & looks like it’s been there for years & isn’t something that was just painted yesterday.
Right now that I’ve done the childish bit & I have a working hood tach it was time to start fixing some of the bits that actually needed to be fixed before the car would be approved to go on the roads. First of the real jobs was to replace the Alt, now with the position of the top radiator hose & the belts it wasn’t the simplest task to get the bolts & indeed the whole Alt out of that spot, in hindsight I should have just taken the opportunity to flush the rad & removed the hose, but with a lot of wiggling of bits & the odd expletive thrown in it came out.
Of course when selecting the replacement I opted for the higher output version to be sure I can run the uprated lights & whatever else I decide to install later & again call me childish but I always opt for the shiny finish when shopping for muscle cars
Now the install would be just as awkward as the removal with one added issue, the old Alt is externally regulated & is a two wire connection type & the new one is an internally regulated single wire conversion, so some minor rewiring would be needed
So the connector seen above won’t fit the back of the new Alt & needs an adapter wire & the external regulator on the firewall seen below needs to be bypassed in such a way that the light on the dash is fooled & doesn’t just stay on the whole time
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Most folks just cut the old connector off the wire to the back of the Alt & crimp on some blade connectors to connect them to the new Alt & then just make up two wires again with blade connectors to jump the terminals to fool the dash light into thinking that the external regulator is still in use & working. I’ve never been a fan of this, so I found a much neater kit that that came with an adapter wire for the back of the Alt & a neat pre-wired block that bridges the correct terminals on the regulator, much happier with how this looks now.
And now I have an Alt that charges the battery nicely & the idiot Gen light on the dash goes out once I start the car… happy days.
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Next up was to swap out the lights for the correct Australian right hand drive facing set, I did briefly toss about the idea of changing the front end to retro fit the hide away lights option that was available for the 69, but then I decided not to mess with the spec of the car just yet.. mind you it will get a RAM Air conversion at some point I think.
Removing the lights is pretty simple, 3 screws hold in the surround & once that’s out its just 3 screws per light to remove them.. my big worry was would they be rusted solid & snap as they are tiny little screws & very little on this car has been removed in the last 30 years by the looks of the rusted bolts all through the engine bay.
Unfortunately the original connector is not the right shape to connect to the back of the new lights
So I had to trim the side off of them to make them fit
Job done… now she has great night vison
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Next job was to fit a mirror on the passenger side door, lots of careful measuring was done for this as I wasn’t really mad on the idea of drilling two holes into a perfectly good door… but believe me the lack of rearward vision out of this thing without the mirror is shocking whole road trains could be hiding in my blind spot & I wouldn’t have a clue.
So I messed about with different position & took measurements from the driver’s side one & then transferred them onto some masking tape that I laid out on the door
Not exactly rocket since after that, drilled a small pilot hole for the self-taping screws that came in the kit to get a grip on
Then simply screwed on the mounting bracket
& then the mirror, sadly they didn’t make a remote adjustable one for the passenger side, so it’s a pain to adjust if you’re on your own, but it has made merging & overtaking such a more enjoyable experience now, there is no more indicate, move.. wait for the crash anymore
Then it was onto a safety concern, the brakes simply are ****e & really need sorting… so there are a few things that are wrong, so time to sort them one by one, first up is that the master cylinder is leaking & as such is permanently sucking air into the brake lines.. & you don’t have to be Ed China to know that that is bad..
Once I had it off you could see the trail of fluid that’s been running down the booster for a while now & on the back of the master cylinder you can see where the seal is dry & broken.. it’s a great car, but it’s sat unused for a while I think & anything that can perish I assume has perished..
I didn’t go for a polished replacement, I just went for an OEM bolt in
First job after bolting it all in was to bench bleed it (yes I know it’s not on a bench, but it works just as well)
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I had noticed that 3 of the 4 wheels had broken studs & that would be an instant no-no in getting the car passed as fit to drive on the roads, so I had ordered a full set of replacement studs as they were only like $1.50 each. So I jacked the car up to pull the fronts off (note to self either finish the other cars or buy a 2nd hoist)
Then when I had one disk off I noticed that it was a completely different design to the other…
Turns out that the one in the last pic above is the uber rare factory 69 one…. Sadly its worn below the minimum thickness…. So looks like it’s new front disks for the old girl.
Clearly now was the time to replace the bearings too & I decided to finally splash out & buy a bearing drift, for years I’ve just used a socket but now I have the right tool for the job sitting in the tool box
Bizarrely the bearing kit didn’t come with a new dust seal… but the ones on the car are fine & I have the right pick for removing them without damaging them so I have reused them now
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The spindles are fine & in great shape, so no need to replace them & the object of the game here was to replace as little as possible so that I could get the car on the road ASAP to enjoy it for the Australian summer (since this thread update is looong overdue.. spoiler alert, I was able to put over 1000 miles on her this summer)
When I was doing the front disks I noticed that there was 3 washers on one caliper instead of 2 & it was causing a weeping leak… so I decided to get all new braided lines too
The finished product
No point in doing the front only, so I bought two new rear drums & a complete rebuild kit including new cylinders (good thing I did)
As I started to pull the old drum brakes apart the amount of mud & water that was in the cylinders was horrific & the drums where warped anyway
I also took the time to swap out all of the studs as there were only 4 on one side anyway
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The gauge cluster in the GTO only has idiot lights for the water temp, oil pressure & the voltage.. I always feel much better with old cars when I know what the water & oil are doing. So I decided to fit a set of auxiliary gauges to the car.
Thing is I don’t want to disconnect the idiot lights either, as I like the idea of a big red light coming on if I lose oil pressure & I’m not looking at the gauge at that exact moment, so the plan is to not remove the original oil & temp sensors but augment them. The intake manifold actually has two tapped holes for sensors, one already has the idiot light one in so I figured that I could just us the other for the gauge.
The existing sender
The blanked off second hole
Connecting the volt gauge was simple enough, now I just need to go find the correct AN fitting adapter that will allow me to keep the oil sender & add a second feed as there is no second blanked off feed for the oil sadly
The clutch in the A/C unit is dead so I’ve decided to rip that whole thing out for now as it so heavy & it takes up a lot of space in the engine bay
I have bought a shiny new replacement, but I need to clean up all the brackets & get some other small bits, so I’ve left it off for now & I’ll fit it again over the winter in time for next summer1 -
Whilst working on the inside I also replaced the glovebox lid, the original had been sun faded so badly compared to the rest of the dash & it really looked out of place & it was really bugging me…
Old vs new
That’s better…
Under the bonnet there are some openings that allow access the wiper arms & at some point in the past the correct covers had been replaced by some precision cut chicken wire
I wasn’t mad about this myself, so I spend the $12 that the correct replacements cost
Sometimes it’s the littlest of things that I just can’t live with
The old thin chrome rocker covers where buckled & they were letting oil leak past when the crankcase pressure built up under load, always happens with the cheap thin metal ones, they are so easy to overtighten & warp
So I added a set of heavier cast aluminum ones, looks better I think
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My GTO handled like a bag of crap & I don’t mean that in compared to a modern hot hatch or BMW M car, I mean even for a 40 something year old muscle car it handled like crap, the rear made some interesting noises & was very sloppy under power. A quick look showed that the upper control arm bushings where brittle & collapsed & falling apart.
I’ve decided not to just replace the bushes but to replace the whole arm with a set of boxed arms that will support & take the optional rear sway bar that I will buy soon & bolt up
Old vs new
You can see how the old ones have no bracing to take a sway bar bolting to the side of them like the new ones above do, seems with this car the sway bar install is very simple, no dog bone ends or real links just bolts between the two arms.
The process was fairly simple, jack the rear off the ground & take the weight of the diff off the arms then unbolt them & pry them out
Then installation is uber simple too, bolt one end in & then adjust the height of the diff until the other end lines up & slot the bolt in
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There was also a driveline issue, the trans tunnel always felt like it was shaking & the gearbox clunked under hard shifts… having a closer look you could see that the rubber in the gearbox mount had collapsed completely
I had tried to remove the old mount just by jacking up the gearbox & without removing the cross member, but no joy… luckily the cross member is only held on with two bolts on each side & was actually pretty easy to remove & drop out of the way
The old rubber wasn’t even attached to the old bracket anymore the whole thing had broken down & started to decompose actually
I didn’t go with the direct OEM replacement option, I went for a tougher new style that should past a lot longer & I can happy report that the drivetrain runs a lot smoother now with that replaced
All back together
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The next thing to sort was the steering, the steering box is clearly shagged, there is heaps of play in the wheel… you can move the wheel a good 3 inches from side to side with no impact to the direction the wheels face at all. The worm adjuster had already been tightened to its max & it was leaking badly from some seals that I decided to just replace the whole thing with a performance version & I also replaced all the front end parts like tie rod ends etc as the same time.
The box was leaking both from the bottom & was dripping off the end of the steering arm
It was also leaking at the top end where the rag joint is
Getting the steering arm off these old cars is always a lot of fun, smacking parts with hammers or using pullers.. in this case I got lucky & one of the many pullers I had fit up nicely & the arm slide off the output shaft a lot easier than I had any right to expect
When I removed the steering box out of the Challenger I had found some rust behind it as it’s a beautiful spot for mud & crap to live & fester & convert to rust over time… so I was very happy to see that the frame rail behind this box was fine
This car is definitely easier to work on with more room than both the XB & the Challenger, I’ve replaced the steering boxes in all 3 now & this one was by far the easiest to remove once the 3 bolts where undone & so easy to slide the new one in… happy days
The car has been for an alignment now & it handles beautifully… you can let go of the wheel at freeway speeds & she tracks straight & true & the steering is supper responsive, it feels a little heavier than it did but it’s so direct now that I’m happy with that0 -
The last big job to get the car registered & on the road was to replace the seat belts, as the Australian government are convinced that no other country in the world can design & make seatbelts that are safe.. so as I had to do with the Challenger when I brought it here I had to source a set of Australian compliant 3 point belts that replaced the very cool (at least I think they were cool double belt set up in the front). So the double buckles needed to go
Also the floor mounted reel needed to go
Then I had to remove the roof mounted lap belt section
Personally I think that the new stalks are boring as they just look like modern belts & I lose the cool big chrome buckles with the logos
The other thing that I hate is how the new 3 point belts really & I mean really hinder access into & out of the rear of the car
I also think that it takes away from the open pillar less look of the Coupe styling now that the belt is hanging down constantly
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The rear belts where lap only, so whilst I can appreciate the upgrade to 3 point in the rear I just wish that they had a set where you get to keep the original style buckles
The seat needed to come out for this install obviously & that was a little harder than it should have been, I think the design is such that you were expected to have removed the fronts first so that you had room to get in & manhandle the rear seat base out of if locks not looking forward to the next time I have to remove the rear seat I can tell ya
To install the top mounting of the retractable belt to the parcel shelf needed a good strong bracket, the belt kit that I got from Morris had supplied such a bracket, it’s good quality & the fit was perfect, it bolted to the inner wheel tub section & then allowed the retractable reel bolt to mount through the parcel shelf.. the engineer passing the car reckoned it was one of the better designed brackets that he had seen…. So that’s good I guess (mind you I have had zero rear seat passengers in the car since I bought it)
New 3 point rear belts all installed
The very last job that I tackled was another of those silly little visual things… the radio antenna is a design that doesn’t go flush with the fender & that has been making it a pain in the arse to put a cover over the car as It’s always held up & putting pressure on the antenna which the more observant of you will have noticed is crooked anyway…. So it had to go, lots of forums etc told me that the guard needed to come off to do this & I was not going to pull the guard off so I figured that if I tried really hard & was willing to lose all the skin off my knuckles I could do the swap through the door opening
I won’t embarrass myself by telling you just how long this simple task took… but think of what you would imaging was a long time for such a simple task & then double that & you’re getting close & yes I did lose a lot of skin & blood getting this done. But the new antenna is in & is straight (enough) when up & more importantly is flush when down…
And that’s it…. This thread is up to date now.. I’ve put over 1000 miles on the car since I’ve had it now & on weekends it’s been my daily driver for everything from quick trips to get milk to long country drives… I just love this car, it handles so well (except for how the rear sloshes about a little more than I’d really like during spirited driving on winding roads) & drives so smoothly that it’s just a pleasure to be in on any road in any conditions.
Now of course Winter is coming here, so I do have some more jobs planned for the weekends when the weather is too bad to take her out & I have a break from working on the XB (mega thread update coming on that soon), in no particular order the jobs are:
Fit the new AC system I have on the shelf in the shed
Fix the windows, none of them line up right & I think that the rollers on the rears have collapsed & failed fully
New tires, possibly new wheels not sure on that yet
Fit a rear sway bar
Replace the rear air shocks as they don’t hold air for more than a day
That’s about it for now, I’m sure I’ll find more things I want to fix or update as we go… but for now the plan is no job that takes the car off the road for more than a day, I’m just loving driving her too much for that.-1 -
So I did some more work on the GTO over the last few weeks, I went to go for a drive one day & she just wouldn’t idle at all.. was fine when revved & driving but she just wouldn’t idle kept stalling & felt like it was running on 7.
Some investigation later & it was the needle & seat in the Carb that was covered in crap that was causing the issue, it couldn’t seal & so was just pouring fuel in at idle
Whilst the Carb was apart to clean up the needle & seats I noticed that there is a lot of crud, crap & rust inside the carb body, I assume this is because she sat for a while… looks like it time for a new carb
Normally I’m a Holley guy, but this car came with an Edelbrock Carb so I decided to replace like with like, so a shiny new Carb it is then
Swapping out the old Carb for the new is a pretty simple job, only takes about 5 minutes to do jobs like this on an old V8
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The last thing for me to sort on this was the throttle return spring, the old one was so worn out it wasn’t doing anything at all to actually close out the throttle fully when you lift off
This car never had a manual choke, there is no provision for one in the dash as it sits today either, so I decided that I wanted to fit one as she’s been grumpy to start over the winter on a cold morning after sitting for a week without one. The main thing that I didn’t want to do was drill a hole in the dash so I had to do some thinking to find one I could fit without needing a hole in the dash. I went with a shiny Edelbrock unit
Then I decided to mount it between the first two gauges on my aftermarket gauge holder, you can see the hole punch in the middle of the fingerprint here
Then drill the hole
Installed it actually looks like it belongs there & doesn’t stand out too much
Then just hook up the Carb side, too easy job done
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Next job is to sort out the rear suspension, the car came with air shocks which I love for being able to set my own ride height easily but they leak badly, so I’d raise the back up in the morning & by the end of the day she’d be sagged in the rear again & on the bump stops by the morning… so a new set of replacement air shocks where ordered
So up in the air she went again… I think that I need to buy a 2nd hoist now, it’s so frustrating crawling under a car when I have a hoist (other option is to finish the dodge body work & get it off the hoist I guess)
As this is a full chassis car it means that the top of the shock is mounted to the chassis & not into the body like the Dodge & the Ford.. so I lost a lot of skin getting these old shocks out & the new ones in
Old vs new
New installed
I also decided to fit a rear sway bar, you may remember that I replaced the lower rear arms & the new ones had the crush mounts fitted to install one
so I got a Hotchkiss rear bar for the car
The install couldn’t have been quicker or easier, just 4 bolts & your done
It’s made a nice difference to the handling without making it too harsh or stiff, very happy with it.-1 -
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The took the car for a drive the other week to a mates place & about 5 minutes before I got to his place she started shaking like she’d dropped a cylinder & there was a horrible grinding & scraping noise coming from the engine bay.. turns out the water pump shat itself & the bearing that runs the impeller died & that had the fan wobbling about like an appendage in a sock, spraying coolant all over the bay & the hood lining for good measure
That had the old girl coming home on the back of a trailer sadly & then parked up for a week whilst I awaited my new water pump
I decided to go with a high performance light weight alloy version rather than just with an original replacement
You can see just how broken the bearing is in this pic & how much it started to eat the internal backing plate too, good thing I predicted that & ordered a new backing plate too
Once the fan & the belts are off it’s only 8 bolts that hold the water pump on
All done..
No whilst doing this job, I noticed that the harmonic balancer on the front of the crank is wobbling a lot more than I’d like, I wonder if the water pump failing & the fan pulling on it has caused that.. so I have ordered a new one & a new pulley too just in case that’s what’s out of round.. so I’ll get around to replacing them when the parts turn up, I’ll also look at fitting the new A/C setup that I have now that we already had our first back to back 30 deg days last week.. so summer is on the way-1 -
Right so it’s been well over a year since I’ve updated this thread… why… because this car has just been amazing, I’ve been driving it every chance I can get & I’ve put thousands of miles on it & it hasn’t really missed a beat…. Well until now.
She’d started to overheat & I was doing some research to see if I could figure out what was wrong before I started pulling stuff apart… I spent some time on a GTO forum & I was given two reasons that it might be outside of something major like a cracked head or head gasket failure… those two things where both to do with the water pump.
Some say that the hi-flow alloy water pump that I replaced the failed original with was simply too good & the water was being pumped thru the rad too fast & as such it was never cooling enough in the rad & the water coming back into the engine was simply too high. The other option I was given was that the gap between the water pump & the sandwich plate was too large & that meant that the water was actually bypassing the pump & not being sent to the rad at all.
I decided to buy a shiny new OEM spec water pump in case it was the hi-flow pump causing my issue
So nothing for it but to pull the water pump off…
Here you can see the sandwich plate
Now I’ve been informed that the gap between the impeller & the plate should be a 1mm-1.5mm….. mine was a little larger than that as you can see
After some hammer work.. this look better
Now fast forward a few weeks & this has not fixed the issue… more symptoms showed up & I started to fear the worst, this is either a head gasket or a cracked head that’s causing my overheating issue…. So I quickly got the Camaro back together & off the hoist so I could put the GTO on & pull the engine
I’m hoping that this is a very obvious gasket failure once I have the heads off, but there are a few other leaks & the whole engine needs painting so I’ve opted to pull the engine out rather than do the heads in the car
Step one, pull the bonnet off
Then find somewhere to keep it safe, so I’m using my Challenger to stack it on
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I’ve decided to separate the engine & gearbox instead of pulling them out as one, so first job is to disconnect the engine flywheel from the torque convertor
Starter removed & then disconnect the exhaust from the extractors… the extractors can stay on the engine whilst it comes out
Disconnected all the wires & hoses that connect the engine to the car & then hoot up the hoist & yank that big lump out
I’ll clean up the engine bay & repaint the chassis etc whilst I have the engine out
First job was degreasing & cleaning the engine so it wasn’t too filthy to work on as I took it apart
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Ok, well the exhaust leak was found… that’ll be an easy fix when I start putting this all back together
If I decide to use this extractors again then I’ll get them cleaned & heat treated
Started pulling it all apart & just laying stuff out neatly on the bench for now
With the intake off it was time to pull the valley pan off & see what the cam, lifters & pushrods look like
Loosened off the rockers so I could pull out the pushrods
Making sure I keep them in order as putting one back in the wrong spot could be a bad thing
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First head off & all the piston tops look the same really, the bores are ok… not too much scoring on them
The bores have never been worked before it’s a virgin block as they say
This head gasket shows no obvious sign of a break, but the water galleries are badly clogged with scale
With the other head off it seems that one piston has been getting steam cleaned… so think I’ve found the offending cylinder
Again though the head gasket seems perfect…
I’m now thinking that the heads may be cracked (the Pontiac 400’s are known for this as a weakness) or it’s such a fine gasket failure that it’s not obvious to me naked eye0 -
Flipped the block over & started undoing the oil pan
Found some little bits floating about in the pan….
So between this little find, the clogged water galleries & the cam was showing some more wear than I’d like… so I put the engine in my trailer & I’ve taken it to an engine shop near me to be fully stripped down, they’ll then chemically clean the block & heads, x-ray both & tell me exactly what we have & then we work out a plan from there…1 -
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With the engine off at the machine shop getting stripped down, x-rayed & chemically cleaned… the news is all good, the bores are perfect, only a very minor hone will be needed. Seems the heads are not cracked either so it was just a gasket failure that was causing my issues… Now the big question will be how mental to go with the rebuild process… I’m thinking modern Alloy heads is the go for sure & there is a 488ci stroker kit that you can get (that’s 8ltrs in new money)… so I might price that up over the cost of a new 400ci rotating assembly.
As the engine will be a few weeks, I’ve decided to pull the gearbox out too now to clean it & get is checked over… if the new motor will be a lot stronger then it makes sense to ensure that the gearbox is up to the task too..
I had had the front of the gearbox resting on the hoist jack but that wasn’t going to work for getting the box out, so I made up a temp wooden support to take the gearbox weight so I could get the hoist jack out of the way
Took the opportunity then to pull the old trans pan off as the gasket was leaking & the old pan has no drain plug (something of a pet peeve for me).. so off it came & the filter with it
Then fitted the new pan complete with its drain plug so that in the future flushing fluid will be a simple clean task
With that done I just slid my gearbox jack (god I love this tool) under the box to take the weight as I removed the tail shaft & the gearbox cross member
Then once everything is disconnected you just lower the box out… simples
Now that the box is out I can take some time to clean up the complete engine bay & tidy that up too
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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D's threads tend to Quietsailor.
I have to say of all the builds/refurbs I've seen down the years on forums on the interwebs D's do stand out. When I get the email notification I get all giddy. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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D's threads tend to Quietsailor. I have to say of all the builds/refurbs I've seen down the years on forums on the interwebs D's do stand out. When I get the email notification I get all giddy.
Thanks man... it's good to know that the extra time I take to document in pics & then post updates is appreciated1 -
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Just a quick update on the Goat, I’ve finally gotten the quotes in from my engine builder to rebuild the engine, so that process has been kicked off.
I’ve ordered new upgraded suspension & a big brake kit to be added as well as I don’t believe in just doubling the BHP of one of these old cars & then touching nothing else.
The bigger brakes means that the 15” wheels won’t work so I’ve bought a set of the original style Rally II wheels but in 17” now. I went with 8” wide up front & 9” wide for the rear… tires are on order & I should have them by Friday hopefully.
Mounted the wheels & measured up to ensure that they wouldn’t rub with the tire sizes that I’m going with.
Hopefully the brakes & suspension parts will arrive in the next few weeks & then I can start pulling the car apart to upgrade.1 -
Dropped the wheels off on Saturday to get the tyres fitted to them, final step before putting the wheels on the car is to the fit the nice red centre caps
These are held on by a long threaded bolt that goes into the wheel & thru a metal disk
I think that they look great on the car, they fill out the arches well & the design will allow a nice view thru to the fancy brakes I’ve ordered
That’ll be it for a while now for the GTO.. I’ve commissioned the engine build now, I have a big brake kit on order & a fancy upgrade to the suspension on its way too. Until that stuff turns up, I’ve played muscle car tetris & put the GTO off to the side of the shed out of the way till all the bits turn up.
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I have two updates on the GTO now… one positive & one less so… let’s start with the less than positive one & then we can end on a positive note..
So I had dropped off my engine months ago & every time I went to chat with the company I picked to build it they kept telling me that things where moving slowly & I’d have the official quote soon… then the quotes was finally done as an “not to exceed” quote & again I checked in every second week to see how things where progressing. Long story short it turns out that other than dismantling the engine they did nothing else, never ordered a single part, never did anything with the block other than have it cleaned.
This has really annoyed me as you can probably apricate as I’m now months behind where I thought I was…. So I collected all the bits last weekend & took them home
You can see that nearly all of the bearings are badly worn so a rebuild was always going to be needed…
The cam is pretty buggered too & the wear whist not being lobe wiped is definitely more that you’d want on your camshaft
The bits I don’t have yet are the block, the crank & the heads… they are both at the machine shop still as they where outsourced by the guys who would have built the engine. The shop was closed when I went to collect the above bits but I’ll visit them next week to see what these bits look like & to get them to hone the block & measure it all up for me for new bearings etc… then I’ll just order all the bits myself & worry about finding someone to do the build when the bits are here… or maybe I just bite the bullet & buy the right tools & just build the thing myself1 -
Now onto more positive things… the new suspension has turned up for the GTO & it looks great.. can’t wait to get the old stuff off & get this new stuff on..
The QA1 kit came with new tubular upper & lower front suspension arms
Closer look at the upper, it’s a great build quality with a lot more strength that the original whilst being lighter as it’s not made of pig iron
Here is top & bottom view of the new lower arm
These will work with the stock shocks & springs too… but I’ve gone with the coilover option
Also have rear coilovers to replace the original shocks & springs too
New upper & lower control arms for the rear too
New Trailing arms too
New thicker front & rear sway bars too
The new big brake kit still hasn’t turned up yet… but I’m told that it should be here in a week or two now0 -
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I’m back with another small update here, well two updates really… let’s start with the brakes… so these boxes turned up from Wilwood last week…
These had the front & rear calipers, you can see the main difference with the front calipers is that they are large pots & they have the integrated dust boots… not having dust boots on the front calipers is a big no-no here for road cars
The front rotor is a multi part bit of kit & as with most high end stuff it’s beautifully made & looks almost too good to bolt onto a car
The rear disk is the standard drum replacement disk setup you see for muscle cars where it looks like a top hat & the handbrake (or e-brake as the US would call it) slides into the back of the disk & acts as a drum brake
Now I also have an engine update.. so I was in the US the other week for work & I spent a bit of time talking to the tech’s at a company called Butler Performance, these are THE guys when it comes building performance Pontiac engines, anyone in the US who races Pontiac’s seem to be running a Butler engine. They where really great to deal with on the phone & really helpful with helping me spec out a build. What I’ve ended up doing is going with a 467ci stroker kit, so that’s just over 7.6lts & should give just north of 500HP whilst still retaining drive ability. I’ve decided that I will be keeping & using my original block so that I retain the matching numbers but everything else is brand new & supplied as a complete kit by butler. It’s shipped from the US already… it shipped yesterday & FedEx seem to suggest that I’ll have it delivered to me by Thursday next week. I’m hoping that the machine shop will be able to start working on the boring out & decking the block not long after I can get the new crank & rotating assembly to them.0 -
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Ok, update time again.. so all of the boxes of shiny new engine bits turned up the week before last…
I’m so impressed with Butler Performance, dealing with them was so easy & before shipping my stuff I went thru 3 separate QA exchanges with them to ensure that I was getting everything I needed & that it would all fit & work together. Including one call where they wanted to know the type & quality of fuel I was going to be using so that they could make sure the compression ratio was right. I wish all companies where as good to deal with, they even sent me two oil filters & there fave brand of high zink breakin oil.
Every bolt & faster that would or could be needed is also in the kit,
As usual some of this stuff looks too good to hide away in an engine but here are some pics of shiny bits for your enjoyment.
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Cam & cam spec… I’ll need to get the gearbox uprated & a new torque converter based off these specs
High torque compact starter
Fancy ignition bits to replace the points
Push rods & rockers
87cc Aluminum heads, they will be port matched & flowed before they go on the engine
The build kicked off today as the block is getting honed & bored to .035” over & then once the one piston goes in for measuring the deck height then we’ll be able to deck the surface & complete the build.
My job now is to get into the shed & get the suspension & brakes upgraded before the engine is ready to go back in…0 -
I got myself a set of new Dougs headers for the GTO for when the engine is done & ready to go back in…
I’ve decided that I won’t be trying to reuse any of the old exhaust system as it’s fairly restrictive & won’t flow well enough for the new build, plus it’s not the prettiest of things, I reckon it was made up of several sections over time.. so off it comes
With that out of the way I could get a good look at the diff & all the bits I’ll be replacing, the QA1 Level 2 kit I have gives me new coilovers to replace the shocks & springs, new upper & lower control arms & a set of control arm braces & a new rear sway bar.
Now if you read thru this thread then you know that I had already replaced the lower control arms when I fitted a Hotchkiss rear sway bar when I first got the car, I’ve opted to replace these items simply as the QA1 kit is a complete kit engineered to work together & whilst I’m sure it would work fine with my existing bits it just makes sense.. I might try & sell the bits later or hang them on the wall just in case.
First step was to remove the sway bar
Then I could get my screw jacks in under the diff too take the load off the suspension so that I can remove all of the bolts
Removing the again fairly new air shocks was nice & simple & then I released the screw jack to drop the diff & make the spring nice & easy to pry out
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I then started to make a little pile of the removed bits, I suspect that I’ll just end up boxing this all up when I’m done & storing it for no real reason other than general hoarding
I then spent a while looking at how I was going to tackle this, I was thinking that I would replace 1 arm at a time..
Starting with the upper arms
You can see the difference between the original upper arm & the new QA1 piece
Once this was out I started to see just how hard it was going to be for me to remove the old pressed in bushings that are in the top of the diff housing
The more I had a little play with this by smacking it or pressing it with a clamp I started to realize that these would be a massive pain in my arse to try & remove & replace whilst the diff was in the car… I did some looking on some forums & seems that no one trys to replace these with the diff in the car.. so change of plan… the diff is coming out.
With the diff now resting on the jack plate I removed the other upper arm & both of the lower arms from the diff to disconnect it from the car fully…
With the diff free, I then disconnected the brake lines & the E brake cables to completely free the diff, lowered the hoist to match the height of the work bench so I could simply slide the diff out from under the car with little to no physical effort
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With the diff out now I can easily get to the upper arm bushings to remove them, I will also take the opportunity to clean up the diff housing & paint it before it goes back in… will probably do the rear drum to disk conversion whilst it’s on the bench too
I’ll also take the opportunity to clean the underside of the car & coat it in a tuff undercoat
Here you can see just how rusted into place the old bushings are & the shiny new ones that will take their place soon I hope
As I sadly don’t have the physical upper body strength to hold the diff up with one arm & use my other arm to operate my press I had to find a different way to get them out… I used a drill to get the rubber centers out, you do this by slowly running a drill bit around the outer edge of the rubber & as the drill bit is drawn inside between the metal case of the bushing & the rubber itself it just draws the rubber out… very efficient really
Of course it buggers the rubber & the inside of the metal bushing case
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Bit of an update with regards to the engine build.. the crank was fitted & measured up
We felt the need to clearance the block somewhat to make room for the crank counter weights
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The rotating assembly was put together so we could measure how much the block needed to be decked to “zero” piston deck height
The block is going back to the shop to be decked & then chemically washed & cleaned again ready to build up, we’ll get the machine shop to fit the cam bearings also whilst they have it.
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