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Have you read the Bible?

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    #32
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Any list of possible contenders?


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    #34
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Permabear wrote: »
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    The Catholic church is not very big on everyone reading the Bible themselves. Having read it, I can see why. There is a lot of mad crap in there.

    Even some of the texts they have chosen to be read as lessons are extremely dodgy. I was at a school graduation service the other evening, and a priest read the parable of the talents, and then immediately said it was a very problematic lesson which always worries him.


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    #35
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #36
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #37
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,086 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The parable of the talents was one that did actually have an impression on me in my teens. I understood it in the simple way that it appears - that we all have talents or abilities and that we should use them for our own personal development and for the benefit of others - including in employment - or we will lose them (not they will be taken away, but they will not develop). We all have responsibilities to society and to ourselves.


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    #38
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    looksee wrote: »
    The parable of the talents was one that did actually have an impression on me in my teens.

    I always like the story (often said of Paisley, but actually much older) where a preacher quotes the line about "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.", and a smartass in the congregation asks "but what if I don't have any teeth?". The preacher booms out:

    "Teeth will be provided!"


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    #39
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Permabear wrote: »
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    Not necessarily.

    Like questions about the afterlife, a preoccupation with questions about where the "stuff" of the universe came from might be something that comes from the Greeks and their philosophical materialism. Perhaps it simply wasn't a concern for the culture that produced Genesis. And if they don't answer a particular question that occurs to us because their purpose in producing the text was not to answer that question, then it's hard to argue that their text "presumes" or implies a particular answer to that question.

    Nor does the text assign a "limited role" to Yahweh. It says that Yahweh did X, not that Yahweh only did X. "All the life, all the breath, all the organisation and movement and change that we see unfolding all around us, that came from Yahweh." The text doesn't discuss why there was a dark, unformed void which Yahweh did all this with. It doesn't say that he generated the void, but it also doesn't say that he didn't. Maybe they think the answer to that question is obvious, or maybe they think its unimportant, or maybe the question never occurred to them, but what they say implies no answer.


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    #40
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    The punishing of the wicked stuff is my favorite.


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    #41
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    koumi wrote: »
    The punishing of the wicked stuff is my favorite.

    If that floats your boat, Dante's Inferno is most definitely worth a punt.


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    #42
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    smacl wrote: »
    If that floats your boat, Dante's Inferno is most definitely worth a punt.
    Yeah, that is epic. Love it.


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    #43
    Fourier
    Registered Users Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Permabear wrote: »
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    It is interesting. I hope you don't mind a long answer.

    Firstly Ancient Near East cultures considered "primordial chaos" more frightening and untameable than "mere nothing", so to submit the primordial waters to one's will and shape it, was the highest feat of power.

    However in other Near East myths, such as Marduk defeating Tiamat, one god wins over the other due to possessing more of the power of the elements. Marduk's new and dynamic wind/air defeats Tiamat's eternal waters. In this sense the elements are what Yehezkel Kaufmann called "the metadivine realm", a power above the gods.

    The inversion in Genesis is that there is no power above Yahweh. He moves over the depersonalized waters (no longer sentient as with Babylon's Tiamat) and the wind blasting over the waters (as Marduk did over Tiamat) comes from Yahweh.

    In this sense the start of Genesis is now understood in academia as a conscious echoing of Marduk's battle with Tiamat, designed to show that there is nothing above Yahweh in power and that he is capable of the greatest accomplishment: taming chaos.

    Note the following however:
    1. That Yahweh, although the most powerful being, is not understood in Genesis as all powerful or omniscient.
    2. There are two creation stories in Genesis side by side. 1:1 - 2:3, the priestly creation story written in poetic meter, probably to be chanted at rituals, echoing the Marduk/Tiamat story. The other, 2:4 - 3:23, comes from older oral material and Yahweh is less powerful in it, he even has a physical body.

    Bar Kappara had an argument with other Rabbis in the 3rd Century about explaining to lay people how Yahweh did not create the world. The other Rabbis feared this would reduce Yahweh in the mind of the average person. They all acknowledged it as the text's content however.


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    #44
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Permabear wrote: »
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    Precisely! Wouldn't you think that humans would behave this way whether their is a god or not.

    Then there are others for whom faith is more of an intensely personal and spiritual thing. I do think it's possible to live a Catholic life in isolation -- the noted Catholic recluse Jeanne Le Ber would be an extreme example of that.

    In my estimation very very few Catholics fall under that description. Anecdotally, my own mother is your stereotypical rural living mass going conformist. I have never felt she really believes in God but goes through the motions as she feels that is what is expected of her in her small community.


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    #45
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Permabear wrote: »
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    I admire your optimism, but I can't help thinking you would be better off watching a box-set or a netflix series together.

    A recent convert to catholicism, and a bible critic, both reading the bible together. Its unlikely to end well ;)


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    #46
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #47
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,086 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod: The sub-thread discussion on Secularism has been moved to its own thread.


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    #48
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    recedite wrote: »
    A recent convert to catholicism, and a bible critic, both reading the bible together. Its unlikely to end well ;)

    It might end up very well indeed. :)

    Of course the key thing is whether they are both reasonable people. If so, then there shouldn't be a problem, they will be well able to agree to disagree at times without falling out.

    If either is the kind of jerk that can't tolerate disagreement, then things might get messy.


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    #49
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Permabear wrote: »
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    I think in the Calvinist notion of predestination, they would tend to assume (or at least hope) that they were the ones predestined to be saved, whereas the others (catholics, colonial aboriginals and the like) were not going to be. Hence there was no real point in undertaking missionary work or trying to proselytise others. So in this respect, similar to Judaism. Its not a very successful meme in a crowded marketplace. Perhaps your friend being "poached" by the RCC is an example illustrating how the RC meme is much more expansionist and competitive.


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    #50
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Permabear wrote: »
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    Yeah, its a good one. We watched "Designated Survivor" while waiting for the next series of House of Cards to come back. Its like an alternate version, in which the alt-right blow up the govt. and then the Democrats create a new order based on goodness and warm fuzzy feelings. Gets a bit corny after a while though.


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    #51
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #52
    Fourier
    Registered Users Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Permabear wrote: »
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    Note again there are two accounts of the flood interwoven: the priestly and the older oral one. Again the priestly account works off a Babylonian cosmology, Yahweh opens the firmament, the shield created by him (by Marduk in Babylon) to hold back the chaotic waters. In the oral version it just rains.

    More importantly in the oral version Noah brings a pair of unclean and seven pairs of clean animals. The extra pairs being for sacrifice. However in the Priestly version he brings only a single pair of clean animals. This demonstrates the Priestly agenda, there were never legitimate sacrifices until the Aaronid priesthood was sanctified by Yahweh following the Exodus.


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    #53
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    Permabear wrote: »
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    It's interesting that both the first and last books of the bible cover huge time spans from the beginning of to time to the end of time. When you get to the gospels, it slows right down to covering just a few years. Compact / dense is the word. You could spend a life time just pondering the deeper meanings alluded to in verses of Genesis. Genesis is a fantastic read a bit of literary masterpiece . Exodus not bad, but be warned after that the next few books get very bogged down recording very dryly the minutiae of ancient pre-historic Jewish civil law and ceremonial law at the time. But I suppose it's important to remember the bible is actually a library of books, with different genres, purposes and context. I'm my personal opinion, the old testament is much more lenthly, slow moving and less inspiring in some parts, than the new, so if you start loosing motivation, a tip is to read some of the new testament intermittently, to break things up a bit.


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    #54
    dadad231
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭dadad231


    Yes I read it - if only to confirm it's total and utter nonsense...


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    #55
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #56
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I've read it.
    A solid understanding of what's in it is very important when calling out the B.S. bible bashers come out with.


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    #57
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    If you'd consider a pick on the lighter side (and a teensy bit of a cheat for 'book' singular) the Science of Discworld is also a collection of books with a philosophical view on creation and science, with a bit of magic here and there. Perhaps not so ardent or worthy as the above but a more relaxed take on how we think about things from an eminent modern philosopher :)


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    #58
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Absolam wrote: »
    If you'd consider a pick on the lighter side (and a teensy bit of a cheat for 'book' singular) the Science of Discworld is also a collection of books with a philosophical view on creation and science, with a bit of magic here and there. Perhaps not so ardent or worthy as the above but a more relaxed take on how we think about things from an eminent modern philosopher :)

    While not actually a huge fan of Terry Pratchett, the notion of complimenting a weighty tome like the bible with a lighter and more humorous take on life to me seems entirely laudable. For a bit of levity within philosophy, Zhuangzi is great fun, and the humour is very compatible with our own, e.g.
    Zhuangzi wrote:
    Zhuangzi and Huizi were enjoying themselves on the bridge over the Hao River. Zhuangzi said, "The minnows are darting about free and easy! This is how fish are happy."

    Huizi replied, "You are not a fish. How do you know that the fish are happy?" Zhuangzi said, "You are not I. How do you know that I do not know that the fish are happy?"

    Huizi said, "I am not you, to be sure, so of course I don't know about you. But you obviously are not a fish; so the case is complete that you do not know that the fish are happy."

    Zhuangzi said, "Let's go back to the beginning of this. You said, How do you know that the fish are happy; but in asking me this, you already knew that I know it. I know it right here above the Hao."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uZQnhvf49o


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    #59
    Liamario
    Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭Liamario


    I was raised Catholic, of course I haven't read the bible!


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    #60
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I strongly doubt it, myself.

    The Roman system of laws and rights was very widespread and well established before Christianity broke out, and included concepts like citizenship and democracy.

    When you come to read the NT, you will see that what is recorded of Jesus's teaching (and the early Christianity which came out of it) was no sort of a basis for laws or society. It was an end-times religion - Jesus's followers expected to live to see the end of the world.

    Christianity has adapted to the ideas of liberty, justice and human rights (just as it adapted to the idea that no, the world is not ending anytime soon) but it was not the source of any of them.


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    #61
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,453 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    do they have a 'choose your own adventure' version of the bible? that would be rather excellent.


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