Why do clubs leave the NARGC?

grassroot1

The question I have is what makes a GPA/Club decide to leave the NARGC?
Talking to delegates at quarterly meeting yesterday some RGC`s have clubs that want to leave. We have discussed the differences in cover here before and I dont think that shortfall in cover is the reason.

Walter Mittys Brother

In my experience because a few malcontents decide they want to be in control as they are probably not getting their own way in the current setup.

deeksofdoom

Our club wants to leave our RGC because of the extortionate affiliation fees that they charge, yeah they have gamecrop subsidies and bird subsidies, tree subsidies, vermin and traps, cages etc... but in fairness your only going to buy traps or crates once in a blue moon and when you do the maths you'll actually be better off to go with one of the other insurance providers.

The NARGC model of county boards etc... is outdated. New insurance providers on the market are cutting out the middle man. You get to keep your money and spend it on what matters in the club, rather than giving it to a county board that's either going to do nothing with it or give it to some other club.

Hunter456

if these proposals come in alot of clubs well question what the hell were they paying into.

cavan shooter

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Our club wants to leave our RGC because of the extortionate affiliation fees that they charge, yeah they have gamecrop subsidies and bird subsidies, tree subsidies, vermin and traps, cages etc... but in fairness your only going to buy traps or crates once in a blue moon and when you do the maths you'll actually be better off to go with one of the other insurance providers.

The NARGC model of county boards etc... is outdated. New insurance providers on the market are cutting out the middle man. You get to keep your money and spend it on what matters in the club, rather than giving it to a county board that's either going to do nothing with it or give it to some other club.

Affiliation fees aren't a matter for the NARGC, Its for the County and is passed at a Meeting of the County. We pay €75 in Cavan 2 years ago we paid €50 per club (full stop)...its good value for money, we have a vermin comp, club of the year, clay shooting etc.

Ask anyone who has had an accident through the Fund, the NARGC Fund is the best out there when the **** goes down. The other insurances companies are insurers of last resort.

The NARGC model is sound albeit flawed and I wont disagree that some Clubs you need web fingers to join and be related to the Chairmans Sister.
Unfortunately I think your issue is with your County and I am afraid you guys can only fix that..

cavan shooter

Hunter456 wrote: »

if these proposals come in alot of clubs well question what the hell were they paying into.

How many of the Clubs have sent in a Petition, The NARGC posted out two petitions to every Club....I want to know how many have been sent back.

In fairness Anyone read the press release from Countryside Alliance or Countrysports Ireland, or IFA Countryside.........No thought not...

deeksofdoom

cavan shooter wrote: »

Affiliation fees aren't a matter for the NARGC, Its for the County and is passed at a Meeting of the County. We pay €75 in Cavan 2 years ago we paid €50 per club (full stop)...its good value for money, we have a vermin comp, club of the year, clay shooting etc.

Ask anyone who has had an accident through the Fund, the NARGC Fund is the best out there when the **** goes down. The other insurances companies are insurers of last resort.

The NARGC model is sound albeit flawed and I wont disagree that some Clubs you need web fingers to join and be related to the Chairmans Sister.
Unfortunately I think your issue is with your County and I am afraid you guys can only fix that..

I'm well aware of what our issue is and who is responsible, and how good the NARGC cover is, but thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me again.

pfizer

There is life outside the mother ship ship our club left five or six years ago and we have never look back we are 100% financially better off we don't get paid to for vermin control but we're doing more now than ever before yes there is pros and cons with both insurers but with all the crap that is going on with NARGC like everyone suing everyone a failed coup attempt last summer and the carry on in cork it is quite obvious why more more clubs are leaving the mother ship.

grassroot1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Our club wants to leave our RGC because of the extortionate affiliation fees that they charge, yeah they have gamecrop subsidies and bird subsidies, tree subsidies, vermin and traps, cages etc... but in fairness your only going to buy traps or crates once in a blue moon and when you do the maths you'll actually be better off to go with one of the other insurance providers.

The NARGC model of county boards etc... is outdated. New insurance providers on the market are cutting out the middle man. You get to keep your money and spend it on what matters in the club, rather than giving it to a county board that's either going to do nothing with it or give it to some other club.

What would you change and how would you make it more relevant to you and your club?
NARGC dont provide insurance we all pay into a compensation fund which protects us as members, but I get your point in that we have options.

grassroot1

pfizer wrote: »

There is life outside the mother ship ship our club left five or six years ago and we have never look back we are 100% financially better off we don't get paid to for vermin control but we're doing more now than ever before yes there is pros and cons with both insurers but with all the crap that is going on with NARGC like everyone suing everyone a failed coup attempt last summer and the carry on in cork it is quite obvious why more more clubs are leaving the mother ship.

I dont understand what exactly you mean when you say a failed coup attempt last summer and I dont understand how everyone suing everyone affects your club(unless you have been involved in the litigation) but what I do know is this clubs have not suffered in any material way during the last 12 months. The same cover under the compensation fund is there same as always, the same level of funding has been returned to clubs as always.
That said what should NARGC be doing that would bring your club back to the association?

daithi55

we left a few years ago as we are a small club and we had to pay a large affialation fee every year.. they also made it complusory to attend monthly meetings.. where lads were talking crap about stuff that had nothing to do with our club

richiedel123

daithi55 wrote: »

we left a few years ago as we are a small club and we had to pay a large affialation fee every year.. they also made it complusory to attend monthly meetings.. where lads were talking crap about stuff that had nothing to do with our club

To be fair attending meetings is fairly important at times. For example these new proposals they want to bring in i was at a meeting where lads came to it and had the story that it won't affect gun clubs at all that they can still do it. If they didn't attend the meeting they wouldn't have heard the true story and would have buried their head in the sand

jap gt

Whats involved in a club leaving the nargc, the club im in is considering it

grassroot1

jap gt wrote: »

Whats involved in a club leaving the nargc, the club im in is considering it

Just inform the county that you no longer wish to to a member of your RGC/ federation.

Presumably you a an insurance provider willing to take you on as a club and that land owners are happy will the new provider. You will of course discuss leaving will all the members in you club.
It seems at the moment it is the fashion in Cork to leave the NARGC but do what is best for your own club.

deeksofdoom

jap gt wrote: »

Whats involved in a club leaving the nargc, the club im in is considering it

You don't have to say anything to the NARGC, you need to sort out insurance elsewhere and ensure that all your members are informed on this.

You might want to dissolve the old club and form a new club, new rules constitution etc...

You have to ensure that any member looking for membership of the club know that they are now with a new insurance provider. So they can't come back to you afterwards saying that they thought they were still under the NARGC.

Tackleberry.

jap gt wrote: »

Whats involved in a club leaving the nargc, the club im in is considering it

You should as a club firstly agree/vote to leave the NARGC, after that no need to inform the NARGC just sort your insurance cover else where.

cavan shooter

jap gt wrote: »

Whats involved in a club leaving the nargc, the club im in is considering it

Is the problem with the NARGC or your County.

Clubs are affiliated to the NARGC through there County Board. If there is that much of a problem change your county heads.

After that make sure you vote it through at a meeting as per tackleberrys comment and write a letter to the Fund administrator and let him know so he can put a line under it.

grassroot1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

You don't have to say anything to the NARGC, you need to sort out insurance elsewhere and ensure that all your members are informed on this.

You might want to dissolve the old club and form a new club, new rules constitution etc...

You have to ensure that any member looking for membership of the club know that they are now with a new insurance provider. So they can't come back to you afterwards saying that they thought they were still under the NARGC.

It would be good manners to inform the Nargc/rgc

grassroot1

Tackleberry. wrote: »

You should as a club firstly agree/vote to leave the NARGC, after that no need to inform the NARGC just sort your insurance cover else where.

as above it would be good manners to inform The NARGC/RGC you may need them in the future why burn your bridges
How can the Nargc affect change if clubs leave without as much as a letter of COMPLAINT TO THE NATIONAL CHAIR SO HE CAN INTERVENE IN PERHAPS A RGC PROBLEM.(yes I know I am shouting not at you just out of frustration!!!)

No offence intended Tac

deeksofdoom

grassroot1 wrote: »

It would be good manners to inform the Nargc/rgc

It would be good manners for the RGC to contact our club from time to time to find out how we are doing rather than just sending a letter once a year to demand affiliation fees.

They'll figure out what's happened when they don't get their affiliation fee.

Walter Mittys Brother

grassroot1 wrote: »

THE NATIONAL CHAIR SO HE CAN INTERVENE

& do what exactly?

deeksofdoom

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

& do what exactly?

Poor ould grassroots1 is as out of touch with what goes on as THE NATIONAL CHAIR!

😂

cavan shooter

deeksofdoom wrote:

They'll figure out what's happened when they don't get their affiliation fee.

You don't seem to understand...the NARGC doesn't get YOUR affiliation fee. The County gets your affiliation fee.

Fix your County.

cavan shooter

deeksofdoom wrote:

Poor ould grassroots1 is as out of touch with what goes on as THE NATIONAL CHAIR!

Deeks I feel your frustrayion but try picking up the phone and having a conversation. He was in the Anglers rest at the Ballyconnell Game night and from chatting to him he is fierce approachable.

berettaman

cavan shooter wrote: »

Is the problem with the NARGC or your County.

Clubs are affiliated to the NARGC through there County Board. If there is that much of a problem change your county heads.

After that make sure you vote it through at a meeting as per tackleberrys comment and write a letter to the Fund administrator and let him know so he can put a line under it.

This!

If there is a problem with a county board you don't see clubs leaving the GAA.

If there is a problem within a county it can be fixed from within but it takes time.

I understand that Cork have a new Executive and a lotof good work is being done.

The NARGC put it's house in order at the top table and now clubs are going to leave?

All credit to transparency and good corporate governance but ah sure we will try our luck elsewhere?:rolleyes:

berettaman

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Poor ould grassroots1 is as out of touch with what goes on as THE NATIONAL CHAIR!

��

How is National Chairman out of touch?

I would argue he is the most proactive Chairman that I can remember.
He has gone anywhere he has been asked to try to let members know what is going on in the Association.

Under his Chairmanship we have financial stability and a harder working Executive than ever. We now actually know what is going on within the Association.

Out of touch how, exactly? Genuinely interested..

berettaman

Tackleberry. wrote: »

You should as a club firstly agree/vote to leave the NARGC, after that no need to inform the NARGC just sort your insurance cover else where.

Hi Tackleberry,

I would say that Chris Gavican in the fund office would be genuinely interested to know why clubs are leaving. If there is something wrong at county level the Executive would like to know.

After all the sh1te going on to lose clubs at this stage seems a bit strange...

Walter Mittys Brother

Some of those here who've been NARGC members longer than a wet week will remember what happened the last time the national executive tried to tell RGCs who to have on their committees and what they could and couldn't do.

deeksofdoom

cavan shooter wrote: »

You don't seem to understand...the NARGC doesn't get YOUR affiliation fee. The County gets your affiliation fee.

Fix your County.

Cavan shooter read my posts, I know who gets the affiliation fee.

And it's the RGC/County board that gets the affiliation fee not the county, call them by its proper name if your going to be pedantic, condescending and patronising.

deeksofdoom

berettaman wrote: »

How is National Chairman out of touch?

I would argue he is the most proactive Chairman that I can remember.
He has gone anywhere he has been asked to try to let members know what is going on in the Association.

Under his Chairmanship we have financial stability and a harder working Executive than ever. We now actually know what is going on within the Association.

Out of touch how, exactly? Genuinely interested..

How is contacting the national chair going to do anything? What's he going to be able to do about a problem in a RGC? He can do nothing, he'll be told to mind his own business.

homerhop

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Some of those here who've been NARGC members longer than a wet week will remember what happened the last time the national executive tried to tell RGCs who to have on their committees and what they could and couldn't do.

Yup that's why Kildare county split right down the middle

grassroot1

God I got a right response from my rant and less of the old thanks very much deeks
Your problem deeks has been that you dont want to pay the 20 euro per member extracted by the Cork Federation 20 euro is a fair old whack right enough but what has been done at Cork federation level to try and reduce that figure?
The national Chair might be able to talk to all sides to see if a reduction in fees is possible then again he might be told to mind his own business. The only thing I can tell you is he is proactive in holding onto clubs and members what is there to lose.
As regards being out of touch myself maybe

deeksofdoom

grassroot1 wrote: »

God I got a right response from my rant and less of the old thanks very much deeks
Your problem deeks has been that you dont want to pay the 20 euro per member extracted by the Cork Federation 20 euro is a fair old whack right enough but what has been done at Cork federation level to try and reduce that figure?
The national Chair might be able to talk to all sides to see if a reduction in fees is possible then again he might be told to mind his own business. The only thing I can tell you is he is proactive in holding onto clubs and members what is there to lose.
As regards being out of touch myself maybe

I'm sure the national chairman knows what's going on but his hands are tied. The RGCs have too much power. If a nice fellah like myself was to become involved with the county RGC I'ld be probably sucked into the ould boys club and pretty soon I'ld be totally corrupted. Probably start taking up the Jacksie and everything, even start enjoying it.

The NARGC model is dead in the water, it needs an overhaul.

Walter Mittys Brother

homerhop wrote: »

Yup that's why Kildare county split right down the middle

Exactly didn't South Tipp split too?

grassroot1

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Exactly didn't South Tipp split too?

Was it the executive or the director that the row was with?

grassroot1

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I'm sure the national chairman knows what's going on but his hands are tied. The RGCs have too much power. If a nice fellah like myself was to become involved with the county RGC I'ld be probably sucked into the ould boys club and pretty soon I'ld be totally corrupted. Probably start taking up the Jacksie and everything, even start enjoying it.

The NARGC model is dead in the water, it needs an overhaul.

What changes would you make?

deeksofdoom

grassroot1 wrote: »

What changes would you make?

No need for RGCs.

Walter Mittys Brother

grassroot1 wrote: »

Was it the executive or the director that the row was with?

If you were around you'll know what happened if you weren't you don't need to.

berettaman

deeksofdoom wrote: »

If a nice fellah like myself was to become involved with the county RGC I'ld be probably sucked into the ould boys club and pretty soon I'ld be totally corrupted. Probably start taking up the Jacksie and everything, even start enjoying it.

.

Eh, I think you are going to the wrong meetings...:D

berettaman

deeksofdoom wrote: »

The NARGC model is dead in the water, it needs an overhaul.

I reckon that is part of why a constitutional review committee was set up at the last AGM..
I would say that the NARGC are looking closely at all their structures and workings..

A lot of the problem is apathy..

Choose shooting sports politics..
Choose 35 in a club but only 5 turn up at meetings, maybe one of them will go to a county meeting..maybe..
Choose to go to county meetings, and out of say 50 clubs only 25 appear..
Chose F@#k all people actually stand up and talk for what they want..
Choose to allow the same lads to stay on...
Choose to leave the same fat f@#k as Chairman even though he hasn't walked a field with a gun in 15 years..
Choose to leave the same shower on the committee for a decade to cover for the Chairman...
Choose to go out to the bar and give out sh1te after the meeting.."we need change"
Chose to rinse and repeat..

I chose not to choose that.. I choose something else.

I got like minded shooting mad lads together from a number of clubs..clay, game, vermin, whatever, if you are pulling a trigger you are motivated..
We agreed to support each other at meetings and elections..
We got people elected that had the sport at heart..We got to decide policy and where our money went..

now please read my post again with your best Ewan mcGregor accent:D

deeksofdoom

berettaman wrote: »

I reckon that is part of why a constitutional review committee was set up at the last AGM..
I would say that the NARGC are looking closely at all their structures and workings..

A lot of the problem is apathy..

Choose shooting sports politics..
Choose 35 in a club but only 5 turn up at meetings, maybe one of them will go to a county meeting..maybe..
Choose to go to county meetings, and out of say 50 clubs only 25 appear..
Chose F@#k all people actually stand up and talk for what they want..
Choose to allow the same lads to stay on...
Choose to leave the same fat f@#k as Chairman even though he hasn't walked a field with a gun in 15 years..
Choose to leave the same shower on the committee for a decade to cover for the Chairman...
Choose to go out to the bar and give out sh1te after the meeting.."we need change"
Chose to rinse and repeat..

I chose not to choose that.. I choose something else.

I got like minded shooting mad lads together from a number of clubs..clay, game, vermin, whatever, if you are pulling a trigger you are motivated..
We agreed to support each other at meetings and elections..
We got people elected that had the sport at heart..We got to decide policy and where our money went..

now please read my post again with your best Ewan mcGregor accent:D

I think you summed up all of my thoughts there in that post and no doubt there are a lot more who feel the same way.

Glad to hear the NARGC are looking at their structures, hopefully we can bypass the likes of the Cork Federations of this world which have accrued too much money and have too many hangers on all looking for a piece of the pie.

cavan shooter

There is nothing wrong with the County structure...it works well when it works well, it's good.
However, and I have to agree with Deeks when there is a power play and a Dictatorship then it will always be a problem.

The NARGC at National Level should have oversight of Counties and I dare say Clubs. If your in the Association play by the Associations rules... It's ridiculous to think a person living in an area 10 years still can't join a "club". Our delegates said there is a constitutional review and I know see Berettamans comment so it must be true. I'm glad the existing /old NARGC is not fit for purpose and it's Constitution is dire (download it and have a read).

But I I would bet I will die and be buried before something meaningful comes from it. There is roo much power in certain Counties hands, I woll also say also let the Counties that don't like the changes that are happening leave or let the club's split away, there is nothing stopping a club affiliate to any other Region no where in the Constitution does it say it can't happen.

Ther is alot of messing going in in Counties. A mate of mine in Kilkenny said it was mentioned at a meeting last week that Kilkenny is thinking of splitting away. He wasn't happy that, his club isn't been given a choice and a couple of clubs are starting to organise. Apparently there is a meeting next week to counteract it..

Sometimes you need to break something before you can fix it...sorry for the rant....😨

grassroot1

What everyone posting here needs to ask is what are you going to do to affect change in the NARGC
Dont leave it to the other guy

sionnach dubh

Was at that meeting in Kilkenny, there was really only one man who hinting that we may have to leave the nargc. When questions were put to him about it he was deliberately vague and evasive. He also showed himself to be unconditionally loyal to the former director and very hostile to any members of the national body. The consensus at the meeting was that no clubs wanted to leave the nargc although there was one or two stooges placed strategically in the crowd who parroted back every word he said

deeksofdoom

sionnach dubh wrote: »

Was at that meeting in Kilkenny, there was really only one man who hinting that we may have to leave the nargc. When questions were put to him about it he was deliberately vague and evasive. He also showed himself to be unconditionally loyal to the former director and very hostile to any members of the national body. The consensus at the meeting was that no clubs wanted to leave the nargc although there was one or two stooges placed strategically in the crowd who parroted back every word he said

Was it a meeting of the Kilkenny RGC?

And if he wanted Kilkenny RGC to leave the NARGC, what or who would they affiliate themselves with?

Sounds like muppetry of the highest order, he had that well thought out.

cavan shooter

sionnach dubh wrote:

Was at that meeting in Kilkenny, there was really only one man who hinting that we may have to leave the nargc. When questions were put to him about it he was deliberately vague and evasive. He also showed himself to be unconditionally loyal to the former director and very hostile to any members of the national body. The consensus at the meeting was that no clubs wanted to leave the nargc although there was one or two stooges placed strategically in the crowd who parroted back every word he said

Thats good to hear.
Apparently there are similar rumblings from other "loyal" Counties. There was muting that there was going to be an insurance provider linked with Sports Coalition.....they could be testing the water

Don't let them wear you down.

I'll watch Cavan AGM with interest and see if it's spreading.

berettaman

Muppetry is the word..

Problems at county level comes from two areas:

1. Things aren't being run right at county level, be it money/clays/game etc and lads have brought things as far as they can and fresh ideas are needed.

2. Lads are not being told what is going on at National level or they are being told a version of the story to ramp up the worry at local level.

If you hear that the Association is not being run right take a close look at who is saying it and why.

sionnach dubh

Yeah, it was its agm, I seemed to many of us there he was trying to lay the groundwork for a move at sometime but from speaking to a lot of other club reps at the meeting they're definitely not for it. Still not clear to me anyway what his agenda is beyond just blind loyalty, but didn't seem to be the best interests of the clubs he represents

Walter Mittys Brother

The club reps are supposed to present & represent the wishes of their clubs at RGC meetings not their own agendas as far as I'm concerned. Check with his club he may be on a solo run.

cavan shooter

sionnach dubh wrote:

Yeah, it was its agm, I seemed to many of us there he was trying to lay the groundwork for a move at sometime but from speaking to a lot of other club reps at the meeting they're definitely not for it. Still not clear to me anyway what his agenda is beyond just blind loyalty, but didn't seem to be the best interests of the clubs he represents

Vote him off...get rid if there is now no trust.

Perfectstorm

the nargc has created a great legacy which is the club structure through out the country. it filled a need back in the day when insurance was no longer affordable. but that is changing. insurance which is absolutely equal to the comp fund is available. and i am not talking about the policy offered at the average game fair. that is a yellow pack version equal to 3rd party insurance.

there has been a changing of the guard in the last 2 years. the association has not recovered in full. you might not agree but that depends on which view you took last year if you did indeed favour one side over the other. personally i sit on the fence and watch and listen. i am well aware of the flaws of the previous leadership group but they did some good work too. the new leadership have had a rough ride. last year can be written off completely in my view due to the various rows. while a lot of the rows are behind us they were the warm up for the main battle still to come.

the nargc is suffering from the affect of apathy from the general membership. in any club i would say a third are very pro nargc, maybe half dont have astrong feeling either way as they just want to get out in the field and the rest are critical of the structure, fees etc

one issue is too many of the same faces at county level and as delegates for too long. everyone would benefit if delegates served for a few years and then stood aside for a few years. the executive has a few new faces but more are needed.

i also think that it has an identity crisis. what is the function of the association?


i have no great love for social media however bird watch ireand, ban blood sports etc are all there pounding away every day with their ideas, policies and opinions. make no mistake they influence people...how many times have you read about puppy farms on the ban blood sports page. ..did anti tail docking starting there too....there seemd to be little or no output from any shooting entity in ireland.that is a great shame when we are all out their rearing birds, observing nature and taking pictures which never see the light of day....

the nargc should in my view be re-organised into a business running its comp fund, game shot magazine, clay shoots with a set budget and professional staff to do pr and media as well as advocacy at a national level. keep all that stuff away from the governing body except for written reports demonstrating that the business is doing its business.

the governing body should be running the conservation, breeding programs, vermin and all the fun stuff we all actually want to be getting on with.

is the nargc to be a professional asociation run properly or an amature asssociation run by volunteers when they have the time.