Car repairs dispute BMW

Luckylow10

Hi all, hoping someone can maybe give their opinion on this. Myself and my husband bought a 161 BMW 420 Gran Coupe from a large BMW dealership in Dublin last year. So bought as a brand new car.

An error regarding front end collision warning kept appearing intermittently a few mnths later. It was booked in Aug 16 to be looked at. The dealership looked at it and said they reset the system and that the error was gone. This was covered under warranty.

Roll on to Mar 17 when I was getting the car serviced i told them the error was still appearing (frequently but intermittent) and could they look at it.

they booked it in for another day in April to assess it. they called me to say a new bracket was needed. was told by their agent it was all warranty work.

they have had the car nearly 4 weeks now, they have put new radar sensors in it, new sockets, mounts, new software probably other things and hours worth of labour. after i sent them a complaint letter about the lack of progress and information, their aftersales manager even said to me cars get problems all of the time and thats what the warranty is for.

I got a call this last wednesday, was told the car looks like its just fixed but they have now decided it was caused by an minor impact to front bumper and that I will have to pay for all the work they did or get my insurance to assess it.

the car has NEVER been in an impact, i have at all stages been informed it was all warranty related work software problems, and i have never received an estimate or timeframe as to when it would be fixed.

they have provided me with a free courtesy car luckily.

they will not release my car until i have paid them. i have written confirmation that they did advise me it was covered under warranty but now they have changed theirs minds after look "deeper" into the initial problem.

i have sent complaint to SIMI, but will probably be waiting ages on reply. next step is to go legal but i am dreading the cost of that. I will have to hire a car in the meantime to get around with the kids etc.

thanks guys for any input

ht9zni1gs28crp

It could have been an impact, most likely one when it was parked and you haven't noticed it. Simple thing like a parking bump.

BUT why that would have such a disastrous knock on effect to other sub components is a BMW issue. If a car bumper cant do what it is designed to do then surely its a product fault.

Ask them for evidence of this minor impact? If they didnt liase with you about a potential cost to yourself and not warranty then thats a moot point.

Id be shouting back at them to be fair......four weeks to diagnose a minor impact......

Gravelly

I won't be much help to you as I don't have any specialist knowledge, legal or otherwise, but it sounds like a nightmare - what strikes me is that they could/should have been able to tell if this was caused by a frontal impact immediately, either by a visual inspection (damage to bumper, brackets, etc.) or through the software registering a collision. Seems to me to be a bit of arm chancing only "discovering" it weeks later.

Atlantic Dawn

I would think the impact if there was one should have been visible to them prior to them beginning work on it and that's the time they should have queried it to you.

If they only notice now, maybe they should check their own cctv

GerryDerpy

Absolute cnuts. Had a horrible experience with BMW last year. The incompetence of their "technicians" was staggering. Swapping parts out is their diagnostics process. They didnt know how to troubleshoot.

My guess is that they submitted a claim to BMW HQ, after all they are getting paid to put in the hours. But BMW told them to get fcuked as the labour hours were unjustifiable for the problem. Cnuts probably overlooked something simple because they are simple. And now they have to recoup off you.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

If they only notice now, maybe they should check their own cctv

That occurred to me too - I can imagine some BMW workshop manager handing a technician a sledgehammer and saying "head office will kill us for all the hours we'll have to bill finding the fault with this thing, give her a belt there and tell 'em it was a frontal impact"

Del2005

Marlee Vast Tire wrote: »

It could have been an impact, most likely one when it was parked and you haven't noticed it. Simple thing like a parking bump.

BUT why that would have such a disastrous knock on effect to other sub components is a BMW issue. If a car bumper cant do what it is designed to do then surely its a product fault.

Ask them for evidence of this minor impact? If they didnt liase with you about a potential cost to yourself and not warranty then thats a moot point.

Id be shouting back at them to be fair......four weeks to diagnose a minor impact......

Car bumpers are designed to protect pedestrians, which is why they are made from soft plastic, not the car, when they were made from metal. They also have a lot of collapsible parts behind the bumper to protect the occupants. Even a low speed bump has a lot of energy and will cause damage to the impact zone, which all needs to be replaced. The soft bumper will bonce back from a minor impact, the crumble zones don't.

John_Mc

I'd be getting onto a solicitor. I'm sure a letter from one will help clear things up on their side

Gravelly

Del2005 wrote: »

Car bumpers are designed to protect pedestrians, which is why they are made from soft plastic, not the car, when they were made from metal. They also have a lot of collapsible parts behind the bumper to protect the occupants. Even a low speed bump has a lot of energy and will cause damage to the impact zone, which all needs to be replaced. The soft bumper will bonce back from a minor impact, the crumble zones don't.

If a frontal impact really was the fault, it should have taken them approximately 30 seconds peeking behind the bumper with a flashlight to tell, and that's discounting the fact that the software would have told them straight away anyway.

grogi

Del2005 wrote: »

Car bumpers are designed to protect pedestrians, which is why they are made from soft plastic, not the car, when they were made from metal. They also have a lot of collapsible parts behind the bumper to protect the occupants. Even a low speed bump has a lot of energy and will cause damage to the impact zone, which all needs to be replaced. The soft bumper will bonce back from a minor impact, the crumble zones don't.

But the damage of the crumble zone would be obvious when the bumper was off. Apparently the dealer replaced xyz components and only then they noticed the impact...

biko

In my non-legal opinion they will have to prove there was an impact.

Get a solicitor to speak to the manager and ask for the evidence.
It will cost a bit but is cheaper in the long run.

If BMW backs down then ask for compensation for the allegation.

Beta Ray Bill

Hey OP

Sorry to here this.
Couple of points to make

Luckylow10 wrote: »

Myself and my husband bought a 161 BMW 420 Gran Coupe from a large BMW dealership in Dublin last year. So bought as a brand new car

Are you the first owner? Or was it an ex Demo/Previously owned car?

Luckylow10 wrote: »

the car has NEVER been in an impact

The car has never been in a impact that you were aware of. IE Car could have been hit in a car park.
This happens ALL the time and people drive off. I myself have been a victim of this.

Luckylow10 wrote: »

a new bracket was needed

This suggests the car has indeed been hit by something.
What ever about the other electrical components failing, If something like a bracket have been damaged it's highly likely it's due to a impact.

Luckylow10 wrote: »

it was caused by an minor impact to front bumper and that I will have to pay for all the work they did or get my insurance to assess it.

Luckylow10 wrote: »

Next step is to go legal but i am dreading the cost of that

You might be better off approaching your insurance company for this.
You could go down the legal route and hire a car, but it would probably end up costing more, and you'll probably still lose.
This is what insurance is for after all, we pay enough for it, make the claim!!!!
How much are the repair bills coming to?

It's not your fault or BMW's fault that there's damage done to it.
You cant expect BMW to pay for something via a warranty that has been damaged.

All that being said, 4 weeks is a very long time to diagnose the problem.
Also, when the light started coming back on again, why did you wait until the next service to have it looked at?
I'd have been back there straight away!

GerryDerpy

biko wrote: »

In my non-legal opinion they will have to prove there was an impact.

Get a solicitor to speak to the manager and ask for the evidence.
It will cost a bit but is cheaper in the long run.

If BMW backs down then ask for compensation for the allegation.

I dunno, I wouldn't give them the out of fabricating evidence.

Gravelly

grahambo wrote: »

It's not your fault or BMW's fault that there's damage done to it.
You cant expect BMW to pay for something via a warranty that has been damaged.

The point is though, they had the car for four weeks, during which they saw no signs of a frontal impact - seems strange that they would only discover a frontal impact at the time the bill is being totted up, considering it should take any kind of half-witted technician minutes at most to diagnose.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Ask for a full detailed report outlining their reasons for saying it was a frontal impact and advise them that you will be submitting same to an independent engineer. I'm assuming they have photographs of the damage that has been caused to back up their claims so ask for a copy of them also.

biko

It's quite disheartening a large dealer would go about their business this way.

Since this may go legal we won't name the place but anyone can PM OP to ask the name in case you are thinking of buying a new BMW.

Beta Ray Bill

Gravelly wrote: »

The point is though, they had the car for four weeks, during which they saw no signs of a frontal impact - seems strange that they would only discover a frontal impact at the time the bill is being totted up, considering it should take any kind of half-witted technician minutes at most to diagnose.

You are correct, it is a substantial amount of time. And I'd defo be questioning that.

OP has said they have the car 4 weeks but needs to clarify when they told her that she'd have to pay
IE was it after 1 week at which point she disputed it, and as a result the car is there an additional 3 weeks
OR
was it after 4 weeks of having it they told her she'd have to pay.

magentis

If it was a demo/courtesy car and it has had a small frontal impact(if they are saying there has been)it most likely happened in that period and it's impossible for you to know that.

Gravelly

The problem after this time is that, if there wasn't a collision, but should the garage decide to go all the way on this, it is very easy to bend a bracket and dent a bumper - I wonder how difficult it is to doctor BMW software to make it appear as if there was a collision? Fairly difficult I would presume.

GerryDerpy

biko wrote: »

It's quite disheartening a large dealer would go about their business this way.

Since this may go legal we won't name the place but anyone can PM OP to ask the name in case you are thinking of buying a new BMW.

It is sad. They expect to maintain the margin on jobs that they do badly. Profit, then service. Not the other way round for BMW dealers.

F34

I'd be contacting BMW Ireland and filing a complaint with them. I'd also be looking for documented proof that 1. There was damage 2. Why it took them 4 weeks to discover said damage 3. The damage if there was severe enough to cause the issue with the car.

Beta Ray Bill

Gravelly wrote: »

The problem after this time is that, if there wasn't a collision, but should the garage decide to go all the way on this, it is very easy to bend a bracket and dent a bumper - I wonder how difficult it is to doctor BMW software to make it appear as if there was a collision? Fairly difficult I would presume.

I'd seriously doubt BMW would do that.

They are a total PR machine at the moment.
If it came to light that a dealer was doing this, they would lose the franchise.

bucketybuck

Luckylow10 wrote: »

they will not release my car until i have paid them.

I would test the legality of this.

Gravelly

grahambo wrote: »

I'd seriously doubt BMW would do that.

They are a total PR machine at the moment.
If it came to light that a dealer was doing this, they would lose the franchise.

I'd agree it would be madness, and I very much doubt BMW would do it (though, thinking about it, who'd have thought VW would doctor emissions software......) but if a dealer or an individual at a dealership had put their neck on the line claiming that there had been a collision, who knows what they would do to back it up? People do strange things to hide lies.

Luckylow10

I was told it was warranty work all along. Never asked to pay. Neve told exactly what parts they were putting in it. They confirmed in writing they made a mistake in their diagnosis.

If an impact was so minor that they never even noticed after assessing the car over and over for the last 3 weeks to find out the problem, surely the radar sensor is not fit for purpose or wasn't fitted correctly?

It was brand new, non demo.

I didn't bring it back every time the error came up because it was intermittent. What difference does it make why I didn't bring it back till march, I have a 3 year warranty and it's highly inconvenient booking a car in to be looked at.

I'm not paying for their incompetence. There is an eerily similar article online on carbuyer.co.uk about a man with a Golf who had same difficulty with a large dealership for the same issue.

There are so many things wrong with this situation.

Started off as a warranty issue and complaint bout how long it was taking and are rights to repair refund or replacement.

Now it's gone onto something else.


Our feeling is that they aren't able to recoup their costs from BMW as they messed up and are now looking for anyway they can to get me to pay.


And IF there was an impact unknowing to me surely it's my right as a customer to decide whether to get it repaired, with whom and when and to get other opinions. They have already done the work. They took that option from me. How can an Insurance's claims assessor assess something that is already fixed.

I don't believe it was an impact.They have had the car so long now that anything could have happened to it in the workshop. Supposedly they were working on it everyday, having so much difficulty getting the system to calibrate.

I actually can't believe someone here suggested that I pay them. They made the mistake not me.

tvr

I would post your problem to one of the UK BMW forum's (Bimmerpost etc).

Had a similar experience. Got fobbed off even after a "master technician" looked at the problem on a brand new car.

Then on the forum found 50 other new car's had the exact same problem. BMW then acknowledge it. BMW dealers are an absolute disgrace at the moment. Hopefully softening sales will cut the rubbish. I moved my second new car purchase this year away from the brand in 10 years. First time in 10 years not running two BMWs.

Get a solicitor. It is a new car and there was no visual evidence of an impact. How are you to know it is not a manufacturing defect, damaged at the dealer in the 4 weeks they had it or was damaged on route on a transporter. Definitely would not pay them. Would pay for an independent report and solicitor first.

You can also check the EU purchasing directive as well.

Gravelly

Luckylow10 wrote: »

Our feeling is that they aren't able to recoup their costs from BMW as they messed up and are now looking for anyway they can to get me to pay.

My guess is that this is exactly what the problem is.

Del2005

Gravelly wrote: »

If a frontal impact really was the fault, it should have taken them approximately 30 seconds peeking behind the bumper with a flashlight to tell, and that's discounting the fact that the software would have told them straight away anyway.

Software doesn't always show the correct errors and there's a lot of technicians that blindly follow the diagnostics.

tvr

Gravelly wrote: »

My guess is that this is exactly what the problem is.

I would agree with that.

When you dropped in the car. What document did you get? I would assume it says Warranty or diagnostic repair etc.

I can also assume you got no call regarding authorising new parts at your expense during the 4 week period.

Pretty easy case for the small claims court to settle. Still madness for a dealer not to just settle this given the damage to the brand. Sounds like a mess up by the service department.

Gravelly

Del2005 wrote: »

Software doesn't always show the correct errors and there's a lot of technicians that blindly follow the diagnostics.

You could be right, but you'd think that after 3 weeks they would have noticed any damage to the structures behind the bumper - if the software didn't pick it up, and there was no visible damage, then you'd have to ask if it was like the tree falling in the forest - if an impact leaves no trace, was it actually an impact?

Luckylow10

i think smalls claims court only deal with claims up to €2,000. from memory the service agent said "we are doing everything we can, sure the new sensor cost US a couple of grand"


no call was made to me about authorizing parts they just went and did what ever they wanted and took as long as they wanted. i have not filled out any forms or signed anything other than taking the courtesy car. I also have not received any estimate ever.

also, i think its important to note that after all these new parts were fitted it still didn't fix the problem, last wk they said they were getting new software from BMW sent over which would take a couple of days and they were hopeful that this would solve the problem finally.

someone mentioned here that because the garage said i needed a new bracket originally that was proof it was damaged is not true . its proof they didnt know what they were doing and hoping for the best.

brackets do become lose, or maybe it was damaged from factory who knows but the new bracket didn't fix the problem.or new sensor or new mount. the new software is what fixed it from my understanding.

Beta Ray Bill

Luckylow10 wrote: »

I was told it was warranty work all along. Never asked to pay. Neve told exactly what parts they were putting in it. They confirmed in writing they made a mistake in their diagnosis.

So are you saying they fitted parts before telling you, you'd have to pay for them?
If this is case, well then it's BMW's problem.

If they said it was an impact and wouldn't be covered under warranty, at which point they should have asked you "do you wish to proceed?". If you answered yes to this, thinking you be able to argue it is a warranty repair, then it's your problem.

Luckylow10 wrote: »

If an impact was so minor that they never even noticed after assessing the car over and over for the last 3 weeks to find out the problem, surely the radar sensor is not fit for purpose or wasn't fitted correctly?

Possibly, BMW build quality is generally considered quite good though.

Luckylow10 wrote: »

I didn't bring it back every time the error came up because it was intermittent. What difference does it make why I didn't bring it back till march, I have a 3 year warranty and it's highly inconvenient booking a car in to be looked at.

BMW have a European wide car cover service.
The number is on the key ring. If you have even the tiniest of problems you should ring them. Get them to drop out a courtesy car and take your car away. It's a service you've paid for with your BMW, you should use it (I recently bought a BMW too, probably from the same dealer)

Luckylow10 wrote: »

I'm not paying for their incompetence. There is an eerily similar article online on carbuyer.co.uk about a man with a Golf who had same difficulty with a large dealership for the same issue.

There are so many things wrong with this situation.

Started off as a warranty issue and complaint bout how long it was taking and are rights to repair refund or replacement.

Now it's gone onto something else.

Our feeling is that they aren't able to recoup their costs from BMW as they messed up and are now looking for anyway they can to get me to pay.

If the "field" is changing and they keep making excuses / changing the story, then yes you need to question that.
Bare in mind though that BMW dealerships are dealing Millions of euro sums. It makes no sense for them to care about incurring a cost of a smallish is repair.
As I said earlier they are a total PR machine now, they'll want you to buy another BMW in a few years. They know if the service is shi*ty you won't. So they'd obviously want to avoid pi$$ing you off

Luckylow10 wrote: »

And IF there was an impact unknowing to me surely it's my right as a customer to decide whether to get it repaired, with whom and when and to get other opinions. They have already done the work. They took that option from me. How can an Insurance's claims assessor assess something that is already fixed.

I don't believe it was an impact.They have had the car so long now that anything could have happened to it in the workshop. Supposedly they were working on it everyday, having so much difficulty getting the system to calibrate.

I actually can't believe someone here suggested that I pay them. They made the mistake not me.

If you genuinely believe that they have totally f**ked up and you have documentation to support that. then you could go the legal route, but you could risk losing in which case you'd end up with an even bigger bill.

It's a tricky decision.
Do they have all the old components do you know?
I'd be asking to take a look at them

Luckylow10

grahambo wrote: »

You are correct, it is a substantial amount of time. And I'd defo be questioning that.

OP has said they have the car 4 weeks but needs to clarify when they told her that she'd have to pay
IE was it after 1 week at which point she disputed it, and as a result the car is there an additional 3 weeks
OR
was it after 4 weeks of having it they told her she'd have to pay.

it was after it was fixed 3 weeks later that i was told id have to pay. its going into the 4 weeks now. car is sitting with them waiting for me to pay!

Beta Ray Bill

Luckylow10 wrote: »

also, i think its important to note that after all these new parts were fitted it still didn't fix the problem, last wk they said they were getting new software from BMW sent over which would take a couple of days and they were hopeful that this would solve the problem finally.

Well that's the golden ticket right there.
If you have that in writing you can go an tell them to get stuffed.

Replacing parts blindly and still not fixing the problem? Ridiculous carry on!

The more you're telling me the more it sounds like BMW's problem.

Gravelly

grahambo wrote: »

Well that's the golden ticket right there.
If you have that in writing you can go an tell them to get stuffed.

Replacing parts blindly and still not fixing the problem? Ridiculous carry on!

The more you're telling me the more it sounds like BMW's problem.

Plus if they needed new software, it's difficult to see how that could be the result of a collision, unless they are saying the collision broke the software!

bucketybuck

Luckylow10 wrote: »

car is sitting with them waiting for me to pay!

Go in and get your car. I do not believe they can hold your car in lieu of a disputed bill. If they do not give you your car ring the guards and ask them to attend.

Luckylow10

grahambo wrote: »

Well that's the golden ticket right there.
If you have that in writing you can go an tell them to get stuffed.

Replacing parts blindly and still not fixing the problem? Ridiculous carry on!

The more you're telling me the more it sounds like BMW's problem.

unfortunately most was done over the phone BUT I do have an email from the aftersales mgr stating he apologises they misdiagnosed it and that yes they treated it as warranty but now decide its not.


lets say hypothetically it was caused by me or third party, they cant just go in willy nilly and start fitting loads of parts and putting hours hours work in without getting my go ahead or advise the estimation of cost

there is no difference in bringing a car to lets say advance pitstop for a checkup and them just going ahead and fitting 4 new tyres, new

i firmly believe they messed up and are trying to wiggle out of it.

i never even thought bout that bmw europe cover thing u mention. there are so many BMW service extras that they totally confuse me. BMW assist, BMW SOS, BMW concierge, BMW emergency, bmw call remote services..

Gravelly

Luckylow10 wrote: »

unfortunately most was done over the phone BUT I do have an email from the aftersales mgr stating he apologises they misdiagnosed it and that yes they treated it as warranty but now decide its not.


lets say hypothetically it was caused by me or third party, they cant just go in willy nilly and start fitting loads of parts and putting hours hours work in without getting my go ahead or advise the estimation of cost

there is no difference in bringing a car to lets say advance pitstop for a checkup and them just going ahead and fitting 4 new tyres, new

i firmly believe they messed up and are trying to wiggle out of it.

i never even thought bout that bmw europe cover thing u mention. there are so many BMW service extras that they totally confuse me. BMW assist, BMW SOS, BMW concierge, BMW emergency, bmw call remote services..

Any time I've had service or repair work done at a main dealer they've asked before they fitted any parts outside the remit of the work requested.

Luckylow10

bucketybuck wrote: »

Go in and get your car. I do not believe they can hold your car in lieu of a disputed bill. If they do not give you your car ring the guards and ask them to attend.

i dont know about that to be honest. This is from the AA website

A garage that has repaired your car has what is known as a 'lien'. This is the right to keep the car until they’ve been paid for all work done.

If you take your car away without authorisation you risk both civil proceedings and criminal prosecution.
Apart from legal proceedings or leaving your car while any dispute is sorted out, the only option is to pay the amount demanded, marking the invoice as 'paid under protest'.

bucketybuck

Luckylow10 wrote: »

i dont know about that to be honest. This is from the AA website

A garage that has repaired your car has what is known as a 'lien'. This is the right to keep the car until they?ve been paid for all work done.

If you take your car away without authorisation you risk both civil proceedings and criminal prosecution.
Apart from legal proceedings or leaving your car while any dispute is sorted out, the only option is to pay the amount demanded, marking the invoice as 'paid under protest'.

I have worked in main dealer workshops my entire adult life, we have never been able to enforce that, and if the facts are as you have stated then you should not fear any civil proceedings.

Over the years we have had various disputed invoices where I know we were in the right, yet every single time the issue was forced we had to release the vehicle and pursue the customer.

In your position I would most certainly be raising hell, contacting my solicitor, refusing to pay for work I did not authorize and demanding the immediate release of my vehicle.

mossy50

Take the FXCKERS to court
we ran into a similar problem with a big well known BMW dealer in finglas
we bought a brand new 3 series BMW in 2005 (sept) .in the first 6 months the car had gone back to the dealer 13 times and everytime we collected we were told the same sh1te as before Problems Fixed
in the end we rejected the car and contacted SIMI who wrote to J.D.s with the long list of faults on a supposingly new car
it was indepently inspected by a SIMI engineer and the report read that the car had accident damage to front and passangers side of the car AND
FAULTS included constant coil problems - limp mode
abs / dtc failures
front bumper sensors constantly on
signs of over spray underneath trays and cowling covers missing and a very slight discolouration of silver on bonnet and wings
we took them to court in april 2006 and won
as the judge said it was a david vs golith case and it was a shocking way to treat customers HOPE THIS HELPS

Alun

As the poster above mentioned, it's not uncommon for cars that have sustained damage during transit, either at sea or during road transport in Ireland, to be fixed up and sold as brand new cars without even a hint that any repairs have taken place. It wouldn't surprise me then, if indeed there is a sign of damage to the bumper, if this wasn't one of those situations.

bucketybuck

Alun wrote: »

As the poster above mentioned, it's not uncommon for cars that have sustained damage during transit, either at sea or during road transport in Ireland

Damaged in transit, damaged when parked in the dealers yard and somebody backs into it, damaged in the workshop getting a pdi.

I wouldn't call it common but it most certainly does happen, all the dealer can do is repair the damage and the vast majority of times it will never be an issue.

The problem is when a shoddy repair is done. If it happened one of our vehicles we would ensure it was repaired as new, but if a dealer is using a local bodyshop they don't always get the level of quality needed.

Stallingrad

Insane location for these sensors, they are so vulnerable to damage. This may be of interest.

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/152244/watchdog-1145-adaptive-cruise-glitch-fixed-for-just-46

Luckylow10

Stallingrad wrote: »

Insane location for these sensors, they are so vulnerable to damage. This may be of interest.

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/152244/watchdog-1145-adaptive-cruise-glitch-fixed-for-just-46

yes thats the article i referred to earlier. its basically the same problem but with BMW and not VW.

at least the guy in the story got an option to go elsewhere to get a second opinion.

mossy50

like most dealers PURE CHANCERS

bmwguy

I worked in a dealership in a finance function and the way the young mechanics drove people's expensive cars around the dealership was a disgrace. Very possible it happened in the dealers.

mikeecho

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would test the legality of this.

I would turn up with the spare key, and say nothing.

Send a solicitors letter.

Wait till you hear from them.

Luckylow10

well i could say that i needed to get all my belongings out of the car- pram and other things still in it, and then just drive off haha. will keep this thread updated

Luckylow10

By the way, people are PMing me about who the garage is, is there an implications in telling?