JP Morgan Boss Slams Dublin Transport Infrastructure

lawred2

Del.Monte wrote: »

What about the cascade effect or do you think that there are 1,000 'rich banker stye' houses/apartments waiting for them to move into? Of course it would affect the housing market.

well you'd better close down the city then...

only way to protect it from the scourge of workers

all these googles and facebooks had better clear off too what with their trouble making multinational workforces looking for places to live..

Maybe the problem is a dysfunctional society that treats developers who provide these resources as scoundrels..

bk

Keyzer wrote: »

Regardless of the government in charge, Dublin and the country as whole, needs a strategic 20-30 year plan to progressively improve our infrastructure. If we don't get our sh1t together soon we'll regret it for generations to come.

We have no shortage of such plans. We are really good at producing excellent plans. It is actually executing on the plans that is the problem.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

We have no shortage of such plans. We are really good at producing excellent plans. It is actually executing on the plans that is the problem.

This is the nub of the issue.

As with Senor Melis of Madrid Metro fame,we have no issue inviting or contracting with the very best of the best in every field,however we then tend to laugh behind their backs,and send them packing with a hearty guffaw...."sure don't WE know what's best for ourselves ?"

Let us hold our breath (again) until Jarrett Walker manages to review our entire network,and recommend his preferred changes in record time before we get too downhearted.

However,with a form of election fever now once again in the air,I am not too hopeful of anything too radical emerging from the process.

n97 mini

Del.Monte wrote: »

What about the cascade effect or do you think that there are 1,000 'rich banker stye' houses/apartments waiting for them to move into? Of course it would affect the housing market.

Dublin needs to go high rise. I think the dogs in the streets know it at this stage. It's starting to happen, just about.

The solution to the housing shortage in Dublin isn't building 3000 houses in Celbridge (as currently planned); it's to build in Dublin, but to build up.

In the news yesterday is that the Irish Glass bottle site will contain 30% social housing in apartments (900 out of 3500) up to 16 stories. I wonder how that will work. Also I really think 16 stories is the lower end of the ambition scale.

lawred2

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin needs to go high rise. I think the dogs in the streets know it at this stage. It's starting to happen, just about.

The solution to the housing shortage in Dublin isn't building 3000 houses in Celbridge (as currently planned); it's to build in Dublin, but to build up.

In the news yesterday is that the Irish Glass bottle site will contain 30% social housing in apartments (900 out of 3500) up to 16 stories. I wonder how that will work. Also I really think 16 stories is the lower end of the ambition scale.

yes - but it's a welcome start and the DCC dinosaurs won't change quickly. It's going to take a while..

n97 mini

lawred2 wrote: »

yes - but it's a welcome start and the DCC dinosaurs won't change quickly. It's going to take a while..

The problem is once you build on the site there's no going back. The IFSC is almost uniformly 8 storeys. That's a huge opportunity lost.

lawred2

n97 mini wrote: »

The problem is once you build on the site there's no going back. The IFSC is almost uniformly 8 storeys. That's a huge opportunity lost.

still a huge amount of undeveloped land around the IFSC

wordofwarning

n97 mini wrote: »

The problem is once you build on the site there's no going back. The IFSC is almost uniformly 8 storeys. That's a huge opportunity lost.

There is huge amounts of industrial land in Dublin really close to the City. A lot of Glasnevin, Finglas, Ballyfermot, Cabra, Broombridge are less than 4 kms to the city and could be redeveloped into apartments at some stage. There is ton of land that could utilised still

Jobs OXO

ClovenHoof wrote: »

But he said in the Times business section that it won't be a trend as Dublin comes out very poor in surveys for no metro. JP will be the exception. Not the rule.

I can only imagine the typical Irish business gob****e still acting and looking like Arthur Daley taking his cigar out while listening to this going "wha?"

You seem very angry about something ? Why the disparaging remarks ? Have you been sacked or something ?

daheff

Phoebas wrote: »

They are coming to Dublin - just bought a building that can hold 1000 staff.

Whatever they think about the infrastructure, JP Morgan think we can absorb them.

JPM have (at least) 2 other sites in dublin -one in IFSC and one in Malahide. The office purchase is to house these into one spot, and expand somewhat. I dont see 1k new jobs out of this.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You mean 1000 well paid taxpayers to contribute to paying for social housing?

I don't blame them giving out about the infrastructure. I got the bus in this morning, almost a half hour crawling asking the quays. Ban private cars on the quays from 7 am till 9:30 would do wonders for pubic transport.

Banning private cars would be a disaster. A lot of people do not have any other choice but to drive to work because we have a piss poor public transport system. We need to have new transport network capacity beforewe can even think about reducing the transport capacity thats already there. Otherwise -if you think things are bad now they'll be disasterous then. The DART was revolutionary at its time as it predominantly used existing railtrack and did not take up roadspace. Luas, while good, has used up road space. Taking away more roadspace without significant added public transport capacity would be crazy (think of how many cars sit in traffic along one lane of the quays. To replace them you need to add that capacity to multiple (and in a lot of cases) new commuting lines.....and at a reasonable frequency and cost. Can't see us being able to do that.

bk wrote: »

We have no shortage of such plans. We are really good at producing excellent plans. It is actually executing on the plans that is the problem.

No- the problem is we don't have the money to execute these plans.

n97 mini

wordofwarning wrote: »

There is huge amounts of industrial land in Dublin really close to the City. A lot of Glasnevin, Finglas, Ballyfermot, Cabra, Broombridge are less than 4 kms to the city and could be redeveloped into apartments at some stage. There is ton of land that could utilised still

The issue is that there has to be balance. We can't build apartments on every square inch of land in Dublin. Streets need to be developed so that shops, bars and restaurants as well as things like public recreation centres, libraries, cinemas, auditoriums etc need to also go in. And in a way that they can develop mostly organically. Having one planned bar that has a monopoly in an area (and is usually owned by a certain wealthy pub owner who owns 30 odd pubs already) is a feature of modern built Dublin that I detest. This is my fear with the rush to build apartments.

lawred2

daheff wrote: »

Banning private cars would be a disaster....

Oh no... not this again

bk

daheff wrote: »

Banning private cars would be a disaster. A lot of people do not have any other choice but to drive to work because we have a piss poor public transport system.

No, it is a chicken and egg problem. We have piss poor public transport because too much road space is given too cars and not enough space and priority given to buses and trams.

Reduce the cars and give more space to the above and public transport greatly improves.

daheff wrote: »

No- the problem is we don't have the money to execute these plans.

You mean too much money given to social services, public sector employee pay and tax cuts, leaving nothing for infrastructure investment. It is all about priorities.

Ironically the better the infrastructure you have, the more high paying, high tax jobs you can attract here, which leads to more tax take and thus money money available for all of the above. But then we tend to be too short sighted for that.

ancapailldorcha

bk wrote: »

Ironically the better the infrastructure you have, the more high paying, high tax jobs you can attract here, which leads to more tax take and thus money money available for all of the above. But then we tend to be too short sighted for that.

To add to the irony, building said infrastructure would create several good jobs in the short term.

wordofwarning

n97 mini wrote: »

The issue is that there has to be balance. We can't build apartments on every square inch of land in Dublin. Streets need to be developed so that shops, bars and restaurants as well as things like public recreation centres, libraries, cinemas, auditoriums etc need to also go in. And in a way that they can develop mostly organically. Having one planned bar that has a monopoly in an area (and is usually owned by a certain wealthy pub owner who owns 30 odd pubs already) is a feature of modern built Dublin that I detest. This is my fear with the rush to build apartments.

I roll my eyes I every time I hear of the lack of services in Dublin. The lack of parks etc. Dublin has to be one of the greenest European Cities I have ever been. There is so many parks, greens, square. Right on the edge of the city centre is the Phoenix Park. Yet some people seem to think Dublin is a concrete jungle. In fact Dublin has 78 sq meters of green space per person. I know it hard to believe the Phoenix Park is a park, as it is generally used as a shortcut to work for thousands of Dubliners

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/YourCouncil/CouncilPublications/Documents/SustainabilityReport2013.pdf

Modern developments in Dublin lack libraries, recreation centres etc as they are basically only seen as needed in working class areas of Dublin. Not a single DCC owned sports centre is in a middle class area bar Rathmines. Nearly all the libraries are in working class areas (although a lot of them were built in 1930s). DCC does not like providing services to middle class areas.

We need to stop the modern development of Dublin need to a lack of bar diversity? Are you serious? It is the most bizarre excuse I have heard yet

end of the road

wordofwarning wrote: »

We need to stop the modern development of Dublin need to a lack of bar diversity? Are you serious? It is the most bizarre excuse I have heard yet

absolutely. diversity in terms of shops and other services is vital to insure people are attracted to living in these new developments. people don't want the same old that they can get elsewhere.

magicbastarder

wordofwarning wrote: »

Nearly all the libraries are in working class areas (although a lot of them were built in 1930s).

an aside, but i know a few people who worked in DCC libraries. Dalkey was considered a punishment posting, due to the sheer rudeness of the clientele.

on a more serious note though, i would say that if you had limited resources to provide library services, it'd be erring on the side of caution to favour more economically depressed areas.

markpb

daheff wrote: »

We need to have new transport network capacity beforewe can even think about reducing the transport capacity thats already there.

Changing a lane of a road to a bus lane immediately increases the capacity of that road. Even changing it to a cycle lane increases the capacity. Basically, everything short of converting lanes into urbans farms mean that more people can benefit from it. If you want to increase public transport capacity without affecting road capacity, the only option is underground and if you think it's possible to build an underground rail line without affecting traffic in the city centre, you're smoking something you shouldn't be!

Luas, while good, has used up road space. Taking away more roadspace without significant added public transport capacity would be crazy (think of how many cars sit in traffic along one lane of the quays. To replace them you need to add that capacity to multiple (and in a lot of cases) new commuting lines.....and at a reasonable frequency and cost. Can't see us being able to do that.

Approximately 400 cars drive along the quays at rush hour. That's means those two lanes are carrying about the same as 5 buses or 2 trams. Giving road space from cars to buses or trams is an increase in capacity.

No- the problem is we don't have the money to execute these plans.

That's not true either. This year the government expect to spend €53 billion. The entire budget for Metro North was only €2 billion and would have been paid over about 8 years or €250 million per year. That's just 0.4% of the budget. The budget for Luas Cross City was only a paltry €350 million and was paid over five years or 0.1% of the budget per year. We choose not to spend that money on transport.

n97 mini

wordofwarning wrote: »

I roll my eyes I every time I hear of the lack of services in Dublin. The lack of parks etc. Dublin has to be one of the greenest European Cities I have ever been. There is so many parks, greens, square. Right on the edge of the city centre is the Phoenix Park. Yet some people seem to think Dublin is a concrete jungle. In fact Dublin has 78 sq meters of green space per person. I know it hard to believe the Phoenix Park is a park, as it is generally used as a shortcut to work for thousands of Dubliners

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/YourCouncil/CouncilPublications/Documents/SustainabilityReport2013.pdf

Modern developments in Dublin lack libraries, recreation centres etc as they are basically only seen as needed in working class areas of Dublin. Not a single DCC owned sports centre is in a middle class area bar Rathmines. Nearly all the libraries are in working class areas (although a lot of them were built in 1930s). DCC does not like providing services to middle class areas.

We need to stop the modern development of Dublin need to a lack of bar diversity? Are you serious? It is the most bizarre excuse I have heard yet

I never mentioned parks, you did. Though Phoenix park probably skews the average per person considerably.

I'm talking solely about the built environment. If you want to see monuments to bad planning just look in the suburbs. Places like Palmerstown south of the N4. Thousands of houses, one pub in the middle, or around Pennyhill in Lucan..., same story. Dublin 15... Clonsilla, Roselawn, Huntstown, Little pace. As well as the one pub there is usually a Spar or a Lidl. There are no commercial/retail streets.

You can build high-rise and still keep the ground levels free for commercial uses.

bk

wordofwarning wrote: »

I roll my eyes I every time I hear of the lack of services in Dublin. The lack of parks etc. Dublin has to be one of the greenest European Cities I have ever been. There is so many parks, greens, square.

I agree that Dublin has many amazing parks right on our doorstep and then the amazing amenity of the Dublin and Wicklow mountains so close by.

I visit all of the above frequently and I love them and I'm always amazed at how few Irish people are visiting them! We seem to take for granted the fantastic facilities we have right here.

However is some ways they are quiet underdeveloped.

Phoenix Park is massive, but not serviced by any public transport beyond expensive tourist buses.

It has one small cafe next to the zoo that stupidly closes at 5, even when the park if open, bright and lovely until 10pm. There should be dozens of restaurants and cafes throughout the park and open till late.

There should be more organised events happening in the park, small concerts, outdoor film screenings, etc.

It is a very underutilised resource.

Oh and don't get me started on the lovely Botanic Gardens that closes at 5:30 every day, stupidity of the highest!!

As for Wicklow, the government should really be buying the Guinness Estate and turning it into a Glendalough mark 2. There should really be far more developed walks around Wicklow and the Dublin Mountains.

And there should be small cheap mini buses running between the various trail heads and back to Bray/Dublin.

The problem though, is that while we have these lovely parks, they are slightly out of the way and somewhat inaccessible. Meanwhile, when we build apartments and houses, we do so without adequate green areas and playgrounds next to them. Which is probably why many people feel like there isn't much greenery in Dublin, because their isn't near their homes.

When we build big tall apartment buildings, we really need to be putting shops, coffee shops, butchers, gyms, etc. in the first floor or two of them.

And likewise even in old buildings which are normally 3 storeys, we need to be increasing them to 6 or 7 storeys (tastefully), while putting a selection of nice shops, little bars, little butchers, etc. like you see in cities like Barcelona, where you literally don't need to walk more then one block to get all the normal services you would expect.

We really do still have a long way to go to learn how to build and live in cities.

Free-2-Flow

I have been in Munich and Berlin this year, their public transport makes Ireland looks like it's in the stoneage.

BlinkingLights

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is actually not true and only makes it worse. Dublin had a world leading tram network back in the day. Then someone though a bus was better and it all disappeared.

It most certainly is true. We had a world-leading tram network for a couple of decades when electric tram technology was new and it occurred under an entirely different set of political and economic circumstances to the 20th century.

We had a world leading telecommunication network in the mid 1980s when digital PSTN technology was new. Then we had a government that seemed to think "ah that's grand. Job done!" as the rest of the world swooped past with massively faster broadband in the days of ADSL in the early 2000s.

The state and many of our commentators do a lot of self-congratulatory nonsense about some of these projects.

You still have people going on about the Shannon Scheme as it if were last week. It was an interesting, historical project. World leading and all as it was in the 1920s, the state did nothing much on that kind of scale until the 1990s!

The reality is that Ireland has absolutely not invested in serious public transport in anything like the kind of sustained way that has occurred in continental Europe and even in many US cities. Similar applies in most of the UK, other than London. So, it's quite a poor benchmark which we always use to conclude that we're doing fine on these things.

Del.Monte

lawred2 wrote: »

still a huge amount of undeveloped land around the IFSC

What's going to happen when Docklands is under water due to global warming or can we get a dispensation for that for being good Europeans?

Even the property porno rag has highlighted this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/climate-change-will-ireland-s-coastal-cities-and-towns-be-under-water-1.2457216

Free-2-Flow

Del.Monte wrote:

What's going to happen when Docklands is under water due to global warming or can we get a dispensation for that for being good Europeans?

We can build a Dam by then

wordofwarning

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm talking solely about the built environment. If you want to see monuments to bad planning just look in the suburbs. Places like Palmerstown south of the N4. Thousands of houses, one pub in the middle, or around Pennyhill in Lucan..., same story. Dublin 15... Clonsilla, Roselawn, Huntstown, Little pace. As well as the one pub there is usually a Spar or a Lidl. There are no commercial/retail streets.

You can build high-rise and still keep the ground levels free for commercial uses.

How is low density housing ie houses in outer suburban Dublin which is about 10km to the City when urban planning was non-existent comparable to building high density housing served by the new luas line extension close to the City? I find it hard to believe you would think thousands of apartments would be built with maybe a Lidl or a single bar. Look at the Ongar. There is a village there and that was built post 2000.

Just because planners failed on low density housing in the 1960s, does not mean we can't have high density housing in 2017. Look at Charlestown in Finglas. It has a ton of services and it is a new development. Santry was built in the 1960s/1990s and has a ton of services.

Most of the commercial space will not be used. Go to Berlin, Munich, Prague etc and you will see a small strip of shops at a metro station for the apartments. Go to the likes of Fatima, Phisboro, Ballymun etc. Building a ton of commerical space beside a city is useless. It rarely all gets let

Ted Plain

Phoebas wrote: »

Exactly who said "The buses are enough"? An actual person or an invented caricature?

I didn't take the quote as being actual reported speech.

Tell me the names of government ministers and board level CIE people who bus it to work.

zetalambda

Of course companies based in London are going to want to relocate to Paris or Frankfurt over Dublin. Relocating from London to Dublin is akin to relocating from Dublin to Waterford.

LeinsterDub

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is actually not true and only makes it worse. Dublin had a world leading tram network back in the day. Then someone though a bus was better and it all disappeared.

In fairness this was in line with the thinking of other western nations at the time especially the US and Britain. And the bus was arguably better.

Yourself isit

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin already has the highest property taxes in Ireland. Maybe it'd be better to increase property taxes in places like Donegal, among the lowest in Ireland and receiving transfers from Dublin, so that more of Dublin's property taxes could stay in Dublin.

Can't see how increasing property taxes in Donegal helps Dublin.

Dublin does need to get all its property taxes and use that revenue to guarantee loans for public transport.

Yourself isit

zetalambda wrote: »

Of course companies based in London are going to want to relocate to Paris or Frankfurt over Dublin. Relocating from London to Dublin is akin to relocating from Dublin to Waterford.

Frankfurt's population is 700,000. Neither Paris nor Frankfurt are English speaking.