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The Equal Participation in Schools Bill
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I'm all for freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. When it comes to schools. I believe there should be a religion class that teaches kids about all religions in general and no religion. Get rid of all the pressure of established Catholic rituals by removing confession, communion and confirmation. This can be done in Sunday school classes, through the church. There is no need to do it in school0
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Unless you can provide some hard references, this appears to be an arbitrary number you've plucked out of the air with no basis in fact. The fact that 90% of our children attend Catholic ethos schools can't in anyway be construed as a matter of choice because, for the vast majority, they have no choice.
It's simply not true to say people have no choice. They do. 100% of parents have a choice in whether or not to have their children enrolled in Catholic schools, and even now I meet people operating under the misguided belief that they have to have their children baptised in order to be admitted to Catholic schools (if I were to be so cynical, I would suggest it was far more likely they just enjoy the spotlight being on them for once, and the excuse about getting the child into school into the Catholic school is merely a poor justification effort. I keep that judgement to myself though).You left out those who simply don't want the Catholic church involved in running state funded institutions, those who had a very bad first hand experience of the Catholic school system under the brothers and nuns, and most importantly those who simply see ET as the best educational choice for their kids.
I'm not forgetting them, that's why I made a distinction between people who are anti-Catholic and people who prefer a more informal, liberal education, as opposed to a more formal, conservative Catholic education. This is why I said yesterday that in terms of education, one offers no advantages over the other, they're just different.While you may not be aware of it, there are very many Irish people who considered their own schooling to be absolutely brutal and want better for their children. Ask a few people of my generation (early 50s) what they though of the brothers and nuns and I can promise you'll get some very colourful language in response.
Of course I'm aware of it. Most of my relatives on my mothers side of the family, including my mother, are all teachers and educators, and I've talked to plenty of people of your generation and the generation before yours who had both good and bad to say about the brothers and the nuns. I wouldn't be willing to tar them all with the same brush that they were fundamentalist fcukwits. Even my own mother bless her has mellowed out in her old age, although that could also be a consequence of the fact that my father is no longer around to join forces in inflicting intolerable cruelty upon their children. It could be any number of reasons really.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »It's simply not true to say people have no choice. They do. 100% of parents have a choice in whether or not to have their children enrolled in Catholic schools
Rubbish, for most people in this state the only choice offered for a state funded school education is a Catholic school. This is regardless of their preference, and even if there is a local ET school it will be oversubscribed and the chances of getting a place aren't great. The choice for most people is a Catholic school or home schooling. We've a few friends going through this at the moment who are sickened by the lack of any viable non-Catholic ethos option.0 -
Rubbish, for most people in this state the only choice offered for a state funded school education is a Catholic school. This is regardless of their preference, and even if there is a local ET school it will be oversubscribed and the chances of getting a place aren't great. The choice for most people is a Catholic school or home schooling. We've a few friends going through this at the moment who are sickened by the lack of any viable non-Catholic ethos option.
So they have a choice, but they're complaining about the lack of options and alternatives. I was sickened too a couple of weeks ago when I found out our child didn't get a place in two of the local Catholic schools we wanted. There were a number of alternatives, and there were advantages and disadvantages to each, such as our child staying with my wife and enrolling in the Catholic secondary school in her area, or sticking with the school he got a place in which would have meant if he were to stay with my wife he would have had to travel 50 miles there and 50 miles back home.
We decided that he would stay with me during school term as he would have to travel less, and while it's not ideal for any of us, it's a choice, and there were alternatives. Home schooling is actually gaining in popularity in recent years, so I wouldn't suggest anyone write the idea off completely. It might even make politicians sit up and take notice as opposed to having serious issues put forward for debate by a pack of muppets.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »So they have a choice
They don't have a choice when it comes to availing of the state funded school education promised them under our constitution. Home schooling, fee paying schools, and travelling significant distances to get to a school cannot be considered reasonable viable alternatives in this context, on the basis that the system should be equitable to all and many people will not have the wherewithal to avail of these alternatives.We decided that he would stay with me during school term as he would have to travel less, and while it's not ideal for any of us, it's a choice, and there were alternatives. Home schooling is actually gaining in popularity in recent years, so I wouldn't suggest anyone write the idea off completely.The school my child attends has children from all over the world, quite an eclectic mixture of ethnicities, cultures, languages and beliefs. It's far more diverse than the local ET school which is oversubscribed with Irish parents hoping to have their children enrolled in the school so they can avoid the lower class plebs and the foreigner blow-ins. There ain't a whole lot of diversity going on there!
That's some home-school you've got running there OEJ.0 -
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They don't have a choice when it comes to availing of the state funded school education promised them under our constitution. Home schooling, fee paying schools, and travelling significant distances to get to a school cannot be considered reasonable viable alternatives in this context, on the basis that the system should be equitable to all and many people will not have the wherewithal to avail of these alternatives.
To the best of my knowledge, by all means feel free to correct me, but the Irish Constitution doesn't guarantee any parents a place for their child in a school of their choosing.That's some home-school you've got running there OEJ.
We chose an alternative to home schooling (again it has it's advantages and disadvantages).
EDIT: I think I see where you're coming from now. Perhaps I should explain that my wife and I recently separated, so he's staying with her at the moment while he finishes primary school and comes in and out the 25 miles every day. When he didn't get a place in the secondary schools that were our first choice, the alternative was private boarding school, or the school 25 miles away from me, and 50 miles away from his mother, hence we decided he would stay with me for the school term, and spend the weekends and holidays with his mother.
Like I said, it's not ideal, but we're hoping it works out and we believe we're acting in his best interests.0 -
And if parents aren't able to home school due to lack of time, resources or training? Tough ****?One eyed Jack wrote: »So they have a choice, but they're complaining about the lack of options and alternatives.
So it's catholic school or nothing?
Excellent choices. I'm sure everyone's just fine with that because you are...0 -
And if parents aren't able to home school due to lack of time, resources or training? Tough ****?
So it's catholic school or nothing?
Excellent choices. I'm sure everyone's just fine with that because you are...
And your alternative is what exactly? Because any alternative that made my choices more difficult, you wouldn't be long saying tough shìt, but I won't.0 -
The alternative is to make religious ethos not an issue for schools at all and allow parents to pursue religious education on their own terms.One eyed Jack wrote: »And your alternative is what exactly? Because any alternative that made my choices more difficult, you wouldn't be long saying tough sh?t, but I won't.
Again, you get your choice. Don't pretend that everyone gets to have a fair choice or are happy with the situation.0 -
The alternative is to make religious ethos not an issue for schools at all and allow parents to pursue religious education on their own terms.
Again, you get your choice. Don't pretend that everyone gets to have a fair choice or are happy with it situation, no one is going to buy that.
I already said, on numerous occasions, time and time again, that I would have no issue with people who wanted to petition Government to provide more choices for parents in the education of their children. The ET model of education isn't for me, but I would never deny anyone else that choice for their children. I would expect that rather than try and tell me that they know what is best for my child, they would confine their arguments to arguing what is best for their children.
Don't insult me by trying to sell me a system which I don't want either.0 -
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But you're pretending that they do always have this choice.One eyed Jack wrote: »I already said, on numerous occasions, time and time again, that I would have no issue with people who wanted to petition Government to provide more choices for parents in the education of their children. The ET model of education isn't for me, but I would never deny anyone else that choice for their children.
You're pretending that it's a simple, easy and quick thing for people to start a school in their area.
You're pretending that majority of people, if given an equal choice, would pick catholic schools.
You're pretending that the only reason that there are more catholic schools is because people who want otherwise are too lazy to actually do anything about it.
None of these things are true.0 -
But you're pretending that they do always have this choice.
You're pretending that it's a simple, easy and quick thing for people to start a school in their area.
You're pretending that majority of people, if given an equal choice, would pick catholic schools.
You're pretending that the only reason that there are more catholic schools is because people who want otherwise are too lazy to actually do anything about it.
None of these things are true.
Nor is it true that I pretended any of those things. Seriously, read my posts and you'll see I never said nor suggested anything like that. If you're just going to keep insisting that's what I'm saying, then you're not listening to what I am actually saying, and because I'm at an advantage here, I don't have to listen to you. I can simply disengage now, and this thread will die out due to the fact that there's nobody listening to you except yourself.
I'm at least trying to engage and have a discussion, but if all you want is to complain without actually doing anything about it, well you don't get to blame anyone else for that. The responsibility for your choices is entirely on you.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Nor is it true that I pretended any of those things. Seriously, read my posts and you'll see I never said nor suggested anything like that.One eyed Jack wrote: »So they have a choice, but they're complaining about the lack of options and alternatives.
Which is it? Do parents have a choice?It's simply not true to say people have no choice. They do. 100% of parents have a choice in whether or not to have their children enrolled in Catholic schools,
(Note, the "choice" between catholic school and homeschooling is not a choice.)
You are claiming the majority want catholic schools.You're arguing about impracticalities while arguing from your minority position that the majority want what you want...
Evidence please.
And as for petitioning for new schools, why didn't you petition for one for your kid?
How come you do anything about it?0 -
Which is it? Do parents have a choice?
(Note, the "choice" between catholic school and homeschooling is not a choice.)
Choice is not a choice?
Stop that, I'm trying to take you seriously.You are claiming the majority want catholic schools.
Evidence please.
I never claimed that. I claimed that 90% of the population don't appear to be interested in alternatives. They might say they are, but clearly there's a disconnect between their words and their actions. That's why I was being generous in assuming a figure of 10% of the population who are actually doing anything about alternatives to religious education. I can certainly admire Michael Nugent for what he's trying to do, but the politicians he's chosen to become involved with will do nothing for his campaign. They're more likely to tank it IMO.And as for petitioning for new schools, why didn't you petition for one for your kid?
How come you do anything about it?
I don't need a new school built for my child. It wasn't because of the religious ethos he didn't get a place in the schools we wanted, it was because he didn't have any elder brothers in the schools already. I did something about it though, I also could have lodged a Section 29 appeal, but I chose not to do that either. I've already stated too that I support ET schools, as they offer other parents more choices in how their children are educated.0 -
No it's not a real choice and you know it.One eyed Jack wrote: »Choice is not a choice?
Stop that, I'm trying to take you seriously.
"You can move into a shack or be homeless" isn't a choice either.
But leaving that aside, Homeschooling is not a viable choice for the majority of people. Don't pretend it is.
Again, you are being disingenuous in the extreme.One eyed Jack wrote: »I never claimed that. I claimed that 90% of the population don't appear to be interested in alternatives.
You plucked this number out of the air based on the status quo.
Large portions of the population either:
Have no choice flat out.
Have no viable, affordable option.
Do not have the time, resources or will to try setting up their own school.
It is evident that a higher portion of people than 10% are interested in alternatives given how ET schools are oversubscribed.
But we don't know what the population actually wants because there's never been an attempt to gauge it by an official body.
Your method is nonsense.
So you weren't interested in doing anything about it... I see...One eyed Jack wrote: »I don't need a new school built for my child. It wasn't because of the religious ethos he didn't get a place in the schools we wanted, it was because he didn't have any elder brothers in the schools already. I did something about it though, I also could have lodged a Section 29 appeal, but I chose not to do that either. I've already stated too that I support ET schools, as they offer other parents more choices in how their children are educated.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Choice is not a choice?
A choice that is not offered by the state is clearly not a choice in this context. Home schooling, private tuition and fee paying schools are clearly moot when we're discussing how our state should provide for our children's education. What our state currently offers is limited to Catholic ethos schools in most cases, so Hobson's choice. Even with that, some children are further discriminated against through enrolment policies that favour Catholics.0 -
A choice that is not offered by the state is clearly not a choice in this context. Home schooling, private tuition and fee paying schools are clearly moot when we're discussing how our state should provide for our children's education. What our state currently offers is limited to Catholic ethos schools in most cases, so Hobson's choice. Even with that, some children are further discriminated against through enrolment policies that favour Catholics.
Ok, I'll accept that, and I'd also point out that without popular support, the current situation isn't going to change (how many times has Ireland thumbed it's nose at International bodies now?), and I would accept that the State is failing in it's duty to provide for the education of it's citizens (the type of education it's citizens actually want), I'll accept all that.
So, the only questions I'm left with then is why aren't more people actually doing something about it and getting behind a campaign to increase choices in education (because I know plenty of people too who would rather an alternative to both Catholic schools and the ET schools), and why should they expect anything to change if they don't actually do anything to change it?
What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?
Oh yes, my second question - do you think aligning themselves with liberal socialist left-wing minority parties is going to do their cause any favours? I often think that socialists can say whatever the hell they like and they'll still be popular with the minority, because they know they'll never actually be able to implement any of their "policies". It keeps them in a job though.
@King Mob: I give up, seriously.0 -
For the same reasons you didn't try to do anything about your kid's situation.One eyed Jack wrote: »So, the only questions I'm left with then is why aren't more people actually doing something about it and getting behind a campaign to increase choices in education (because I know plenty of people too who would rather an alternative to both Catholic schools and the ET schools), and why should they expect anything to change if they don't actually do anything to change it?
Because for the most part, due to practical concerns such as keeping a job, people would be fine with settling. This does not mean they are happy or satisfied with the situation.
Similarly, not many people do have the time, will or resources to organise or join a campaign or petition to get a new school or to change national policy. This does not mean they are happy or satisfied with the situation.
Even then, if they were so inclined, they might be turned off of getting involved because by the time they would effect change and get a new school, their children would have already passed the age.. And this would assume they would be successful.
This doesn't mean they are happy or satisfied with the situation.
And then, it's just plain expensive and difficult to get a new school built, especially if there is a school already in the area that the government decides is adequate.
There's tons of reasons why, your flippant generalisation that they are all fine with the situation is not an accurate one. It's particularly hypocritical given how "uninterested" you were about your kid's situation.
Maybe the best thing to do is to find out what the actual population wants in a fair and accurate way. Or at least more fair and accurate then looking at the schools we have now and using that as a basis like you did.
I figured that since you've been ignoring my points from the start...One eyed Jack wrote: »@King Mob: I give up, seriously.0 -
There's tons of reasons why, your flippant generalisation that they are all fine with the situation is not an accurate one. It's particularly hypocritical given how "uninterested" you were about your kid's situation.
Will you please stop misrepresenting what I've said and twisting what I have said then to try and misrepresent my own situation. I didn't say anyone else was fine with the situation, I said they don't appear to be willing to do anything about it, besides complain. Secondly, that's the second time you've used airquotes to imply something that simply isn't true.
We (that's my wife and I, our child's parents) did do something about our situation (since it was us as his parents making the decisions for him and not him making decisions for himself), so to say we were uninterested in our own situation (not our child's situation) is simply untrue. You could point to an infinite number of examples when I've been hypocritical in my life, but on this occasion, your fingers a little short for wagging properly.Maybe the best thing to do is to find out what the actual population wants in a fair and accurate way. Or at least more fair and accurate then looking at the schools we have now and using that as a basis like you did.
You mean fairer than democratic elections where the people elect political representatives to represent their interests? No matter what way you try and spin it, it doesn't appear like too many people are too keen on any alternatives to the current status quo.
If you were to propose a referendum on the issue, I wouldn't be too confident it would pass either given that the Children's referendum had the second lowest voter turnout in the States history at 30%. I would tend to agree with you however that it does appear that people have other priorities in their lives besides the education of other people's children. They're often more concerned that their children receive what the State calls a minimum standard of education, that they don't have time for lofty idealism.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Ok, I'll accept that, and I'd also point out that without popular support, the current situation isn't going to change (how many times has Ireland thumbed it's nose at International bodies now?), and I would accept that the State is failing in it's duty to provide for the education of it's citizens (the type of education it's citizens actually want), I'll accept all that.
So, the only questions I'm left with then is why aren't more people actually doing something about it and getting behind a campaign to increase choices in education (because I know plenty of people too who would rather an alternative to both Catholic schools and the ET schools), and why should they expect anything to change if they don't actually do anything to change it?
What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?
People are actually doing something about it, but it is largely despite successive governments lethargy. When I was in primary school in the 70s, the headmistress of that school went on to become the headmistress of the first Educate together school. Forty years on there are now 81 ET national schools and 9 ET secondary schools with more on the way each year. While progress is frustratingly slow for many parents looking for a secular education, more ET schools are being built each year and the rate at which they're being built is gradually increasing. I imagine once they reach a certain critical mass, the government of the day will pretend it was their idea all along and accelerate the process further. Also that will still be a large number of Catholic ethos schools as long as people want them, but once you're into a second generation of kids that only go to church for births, deaths and marriages, I don't see this lasting too long. (e.g. ~another 20-30 years).Oh yes, my second question - do you think aligning themselves with liberal socialist left-wing minority parties is going to do their cause any favours?
Couldn't tell you, other than being a left leaning liberal myself. Best minister for education in recent years by my reckoning was Ruari Quinn, but I don't see any of our elected ministers do anything of any use on just about any social issue based on their track record.0 -
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I'm not misrepresenting you, I'm explaining why your position is a gross generalisation.One eyed Jack wrote: »Will you please stop misrepresenting what I've said and twisting what I have said then to try and misrepresent my own situation. I didn't say anyone else was fine with the situation, I said they don't appear to be willing to do anything about it, besides complain.
There's lots of reasons I just explained why someone might not be able to devote themselves to the standard of activism you're demanding to qualify as "doing something".
Also I am pointing out how you have moved the goalposts repeatedly:One eyed Jack wrote: »Of course I can see why it's maddening if I were in your position HD, and of course I acknowledge that I don't have a problem with the patronage system as it is given that it happens to work not just in my favour, but in favour of 90% of the population.
Could you explain how people not being happy with the situation counts as it being in their favour?
Of course it's not true, but by your standards, you didn't do anything and you put "other priorities" first.One eyed Jack wrote: »Secondly, that's the second time you've used airquotes to imply something that simply isn't true.
We (that's my wife and I, our child's parents) did do something about our situation (since it was us as his parents making the decisions for him and not him making decisions for himself), so to say we were uninterested in our own situation (not our child's situation) is simply untrue. You could point to an infinite number of examples when I've been hypocritical in my life, but on this occasion, your fingers a little short for wagging properly.
You are the one saying that people in similar situations aren't interested in their child's education simply because they aren't actively trying to build a school themselves.
Lots of people settle for their less than ideal choice, just like you did.
And sometimes, they don't have much of an option but to complain and hopefully vote.
Just like "catholic or nothing" isn't much of a choice "settling or building a school from scratch" isn't a viable option for most people.
And what exactly is the based on?One eyed Jack wrote: »You mean fairer than democratic elections where the people elect political representatives to represent their interests? No matter what way you try and spin it, it doesn't appear like too many people are too keen on any alternatives to the current status quo.
90% of schools are Catholic and people seem fine with that?0 -
It's maddening to have to point out basic facts yet again to people who insist the present system is fine and dandy just because it suits them to have a system which promotes their religion using state money.
Life ain't always empty.
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How many people that have washed their hands of the faith try to enrol their children in protestant schools and would they have the same expectations going
there as they would going to a catholic school? Do they expect to be treated as the prodigal son or because I once was a member.....0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »How many people that have washed their hands of the faith try to enrol their children in protestant schools and would they have the same expectations going
there as they would going to a catholic school? Do they expect to be treated as the prodigal son or because I once was a member.....
Does this (presumably rhetorical) question mean anything, other than a bunch of strawman/ non sequiturs?0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »How many people that have washed their hands of the faith try to enrol their children in protestant schools and would they have the same expectations going
there as they would going to a catholic school? Do they expect to be treated as the prodigal son or because I once was a member.....
Prodigal son? Seriously - most people just want their child to be treated in a fair manner with equal access to and respect in publicly funded schools - why do you think that is too much to expect?0 -
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Most religious people, unfortunately, tend to be concerned about discrimination only when it applies to them.TheQuietFella wrote: »The question remains unanswered!0 -
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TheQuietFella wrote: »I don't quite understand where you are coming from?
I think robindch is saying that with regard to discrimination (as it applies here in a religious context), most people will only care about discrimination when it is they who are being discriminated against.
I myself don't think that self-interest is peculiar to people who are religious though, nor is claiming that everyone in society will be the beneficiaries of their particular ideology.0 -
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