MA counselling & psychotherapy ICHAS or MA UL

boopdedoop

Hi, apologies if I'm posting in the wrong place, also I'm aware previous threads on ICHAS exist but nothing recent!


bascially, I've been considering the MA in counselling and psychotherapy in ICHAS, however I have some concerns about it. I'm finding it rather difficult to understand the accreditation process for counsellors, am I correct in assuming CORU will become the main regulatory body for counsellors in the future due to oncoming regulation? ICHAS discuss this in the course information, honestly however it reads slightly like gibberish, which concerns me. Is this course or is not accredited? Would I be a genuinely qualified counsellor having done this course?

Secondly, originally I had planned on applying for the MA psychology in UL which is PSI accredited.

My long term goal is to pursue a doctorate in counselling psychology - so with that said, would it be more beneficial to
1. Do the MA in ICHAS which includes 200 hours client work OR
2. Do the MA in UL which includes no work with clients whatsoever.
in order to eventually (hopefully) progress to counselling psychology.

One last important piece of info - my undergrad is a 2:1/1:1 ba sociology and psychology (no results yet) I understand if I went with the ICHAS option, I would need to do a hdip in psychology that is PSI accredited.

Apologies for the length of this post, it's slightly confusing. Any advice on the best route for me to take?

Thanks!!

dar100

Your under grad needs to be psi accredited, if not you will have to do the hdip!!

JuliusCaesar

While there are plans to accredit counsellors through CORU they have to get through a range of professions first, so it will take years. It will also take years in that there are so many kinds of psychotherapies/counselling methods, not all of which are evidence-based. It will also be a first if CORU manages it; the UK couldn't do it.

So no counselling/psychotherapy courses are at the moment accredited by CORU.

boopdedoop

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

While there are plans to accredit counsellors through CORU they have to get through a range of professions first, so it will take years. It will also take years in that there are so many kinds of psychotherapies/counselling methods, not all of which are evidence-based. It will also be a first if CORU manages it; the UK couldn't do it.

So no counselling/psychotherapy courses are at the moment accredited by CORU.

Okay I see, thanks for the info. So in terms of a long term plan with that in mind, perhaps the psi accredited MA in Limerick would be better to do than ICHAS? I'd hate to spend the money on a course that a few years down the line may be insuffient? I'm assuming there is no way of knowing if a course completed now would hold up whenever the regulation begins? Or am I still misunderstandin?
Whereas, UL's masters is psi accredited so id avoid all the above?
Thanks for taking the time to help me out!

boopdedoop

dar100 wrote: »

Your under grad needs to be psi accredited, if not you will have to do the hdip!!

Yes, however the MA in Limerick is a PSI accredited conversion course, so I believe that would cover that.
However, if I went with the ICHAS option, I would indeed need to do a hdip.
It's difficult to assess the better option! I'm more inclined to think the psi accredited masters would be more beneficial?

YoungRogerian

What age are you? Are you tied to Ireland or family personal reasons? If you have a psychology degree you should be able to get straight onto an MA in Counselling psychology. There are certainly options in the UK as I know friends of mine who are doing that, would be very surprised if there aren't options in Ireland too though. Doing a separate MA purely in Psychology seems like an unnecessary extra step to me, but that is just my opinion. I'd be very surprised if you could get a PhD in Counselling Psychology off the back of a Masters with no client work whatsoever, but you have probably checked this out I presume?

Trishis

Hello, I find the Psychology training route very confusing also!

I am a mature student with an undergrad in Psychology and certs in coaching and CBT and voluntary experience

I am a member of the PSI and have also been in touch with CORU who have said I can practice a psychologist.

I am posting in this forum because I would like to know if many have opened a private practice with a degree? (from research online it seems some are working with diplomas)

The Healthcare act 2005 says that Psychologists need a degree to practice with no mention of a masters or doctorate, I know the act is being revised but its difficult to know what level they will require in a few years - any ideas?

The ICHAS MA in counselling and psychotherapy seems good to me - and QQI accredited - however do some think it is not a worthwhile course?? I was hoping to enroll there in september !!
If its not worthwhile please outline why - I hope to use it to open a practice

Thank you for your time

sadie9

You have just a BA in Psychology is it? And some Certificates. Are you a fully registered member of the PSI and listed as a psychologist? Or a Graduate Member?
I thought you needed to have a post graduate degree and 4 years supervised work experience to become a psychologist registered with the PSI. That's my understanding as a Graduate Member of PSI myself.
I am very surprised CORU told you that you could trade as a psychologist. What service would you be offering to people?

dar100

You aren't qualified to do anything with an under grad in psychology other than go onto train further

purified

Heya,

Just a heads up, might be worthwhile checking if ICHAS are accredited with the current governing bodies, I know IACP and IAHIP are the two main bodies for accreditation. There are new accrediting bodies set up such as the apcp [snipped].

To be honest the courses that push for client hours as well as personal therapy are probably better. [snipped]

With the regards the UL course, It didnt run last year for some reason and the masters is the only aspect of the course running this year. and from what i remember the closing date is fairly near if not passed.

Kasia_2017

Hello, I am in a similar position, considering the MA at ICHAS but very confused by the professional/academic accreditations and which is more important in light of the evolving regulatory framework...the ICHAS course is not currently accredited by the IACP or IAHIP but provides the basis for accreditation with a few other bodies (incl. the abovementioned APCP). There is a lot of focus on the website on the fact that the course is in line with the latest QQI requirements but that's obvs academic rather than professional accreditation...If anyone here is working in the field and has experience as to what future employers/clients will be looking out for and where current regulatory developments are going, I would be very grateful...much of the criticism of ICHAS courses on this forum is dated a few years back, so I am wondering what the situation now is...

PMMG

My head is melted at this point also! Was considering doing the MA in ICHAS but not sure whether its the right or wrong thing to do? I get that it is a QQI award but what I don't understand is the professional accreditation bit. APCP is affiliated with the college so that is probably questionable alright but like other professional bodies it requires that the individual has undertaken 100 supervised practice hours while training. Also the college do recommend you undertake at least 50 hours of personal therapy (one of the elective modules). So what is the problem exactly? How does this differ from other IACP courses? Their BA hons degree is also 4 years, MA is one-two years depending on whether you take the course PA or FT. Really want to understand what are the core differences between training at the ICHAS and training in courses recognized by the IACP. No thread has, as yet, fully addressed this (or maybe they have and I haven't come across them?)

PMMG

[removed deleted quote]

Thanks for your reply. [snipped] I on the other hand have lots and lots of life experience and am far away from leaving cert age I am limited in terms of travel, time and money and ICHAS seems to suit me best in that regard. I am not overly worried about the self-insight part as I have done plenty of work around that and most certainly know who I am and what I bring to the table so to speak. I am however very worried about future regulations and what it will mean for people who are trained by the ICHAS. So basically what I am saying is that if the only difference is the lack of emphasis on self development then for me its not going to be a huge issue given that I have and stiill do a lot of work around this, but if this difference effects my chances of getting registered with CORU down the line then I am worried!!!

purified

PMMG wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. [snipped] I on the other hand have lots and lots of life experience and am far away from leaving cert age I am limited in terms of travel, time and money and ICHAS seems to suit me best in that regard. I am not overly worried about the self-insight part as I have done plenty of work around that and most certainly know who I am and what I bring to the table so to speak. I am however very worried about future regulations and what it will mean for people who are trained by the ICHAS. So basically what I am saying is that if the only difference is the lack of emphasis on self development then for me its not going to be a huge issue given that I have and stiill do a lot of work around this, but if this difference effects my chances of getting registered with CORU down the line then I am worried!!!

Yeah totally understand! The regulations are basically saying that it needs to be at least fetac level 8. But again that might change in the future as regulation isn't actually in yet. I know numerous courses have restructured as a result of the possible incoming regulation. Also just to check whether or not it is coru that they will have to be accredited with as social care and psychotherapy have similarities but the nature of the work and actual doing of it is very different, like social workers can't be counsellors unless they have done training. I know there are plans to formalise social work and social care to ensure workers are trained appropriately. To the best of my knowledge the discussion in counselling and psychotherapy is happening at the same time but is a separate group. There is a bit of uncertainty because a lot of the potential requirements are hearsay but a lot are saying masters level. I suppose it really is what you feel suits you best. Might be worth having a look for past masters students of ichas and getting first hand feedback

PMMG

purified wrote: »

Yeah totally understand! The regulations are basically saying that it needs to be at least fetac level 8. But again that might change in the future as regulation isn't actually in yet. I know numerous courses have restructured as a result of the possible incoming regulation. Also just to check whether or not it is coru that they will have to be accredited with as social care and psychotherapy have similarities but the nature of the work and actual doing of it is very different, like social workers can't be counsellors unless they have done training. I know there are plans to formalise social work and social care to ensure workers are trained appropriately. To the best of my knowledge the discussion in counselling and psychotherapy is happening at the same time but is a separate group. There is a bit of uncertainty because a lot of the potential requirements are hearsay but a lot are saying masters level. I suppose it really is what you feel suits you best. Might be worth having a look for past masters students of ichas and getting first hand feedback

Good idea! I wonder if they might struggle to get any work if in fact the course is not highly regarded (given that work is generally obtained through referrals from other professionals)
:eek:

PMMG

[snipped]

Is there anyone on this forum that has gone through ICHAS training and could give some advice around it???

Freedive Ireland

Is there any correlation between educational achievements and patient/client outcomes?

Kasia_2017

Hello all, I had considered the ICHAS counselling and psychotherapy course but declined after reconsidering the pros and cons - main issue for me was accreditation. They are not accredited with one of the most important and largest bodies, i. e. the IACP. [snipped] They talk a lot about how the regulatory landscape is going to change etc. and how CORU will be the main regulator, basically replacing accreditation with other bodies BUT keep in mind that this is in its infancy and will probably take years to complete (I contacted CORU directly on the matter). [snipped]

noble00

Hi everyone sorry for jumping in, I'm also confused as to which road to take I have five years social care done,degrees and post graduate, I would really love to do psychology , can anyone tell me if there is any online courses that can be taken so I can continue to work and study part time thank you

Trishis

Hey !
So when CORU come on board the other accreditation bodies will cease to exist? So why is the QQI level 9 Masters ICHAS provides so bad ? It won't matter about APCP or IACP etc...

Also CORU have said they don't know what the regulations will be yet, but it's possible to be a level 9 qualification. Which ICHAS is, so what's the problem with it?

Has anyone completed the course? Any lived experience or are we going on hearsay alone?

Just curious because an MA is a lot of money obviously so want to choose wisely

Thanks for your time

dar100

Trishis wrote: »

Hey !
So when CORU come on board the other accreditation bodies will cease to exist? So why is the QQI level 9 Masters ICHAS provides so bad ? It won't matter about APCP or IACP etc...

Also CORU have said they don't know what the regulations will be yet, but it's possible to be a level 9 qualification. Which ICHAS is, so what's the problem with it?

Has anyone completed the course? Any lived experience or are we going on hearsay alone?

Just curious because an MA is a lot of money obviously so want to choose wisely

Thanks for your time

1) I cant see CORU replacing existing bodies
2) its a two years masters so if you have not got an undergrad in the same discipline you will be the worst possible therapist imaginably. There's a reason why masters in counselling and psychotherapy are 4 years duration
3) the guidelines for regulation are quite clear, 4 year undergrad to use the term counsellor, 4 year masters to use psychotherapist.
4) [snipped]
5) yes I have lived experience of this institute

Trishis

dar100 wrote: »

1) I cant see CORU replacing existing bodies
2) its a two years masters so if you have not got an undergrad in the same discipline you will be the worst possible therapist imaginably. There's a reason why masters in counselling and psychotherapy are 4 years duration
3) the guidelines for regulation are quite clear, 4 year undergrad to use the term counsellor, 4 year masters to use psychotherapist.
4) [snipped]
5) yes I have lived experience of this institute

Hiya, yes I have a 6 yr psychology degree completed so I do have background - however if I want to become a counselling psychologist now the masters is also 1 yr. So I don't know why the ICHAS masters in psychotherapy is getting so much stick ! I just want to make sure that we are being objective here and not jumping on bandwagons

Also I have spoken to CORU and they will be replacing the private bodies. CORU are a government body and therefore will be the final say on who is qualified and who isn't.

Also I'm not talking about myself, but I don't think you can say that anyone will be 'the worst possible therapist imaginable' - I think there is a bit of ego mixed up in that ! Who are you to judge?! Many people work with people after doing diplomas and I have asked people who went to them how they found the the treatment - and they all replied that the bought the person not the qualifications! - so I think you are forgetting about lived experience that can't be taught.
Just my two cents ! Don't let academia dictate who you are or how good you are, it's not everything !

dar100

Trishis wrote: »

Hiya, yes I have a 6 yr psychology degree completed so I do have background - however if I want to become a counselling psychologist now the masters is also 1 yr. So I don't know why the ICHAS masters in psychotherapy is getting so much stick ! I just want to make sure that we are being objective here and not jumping on bandwagons

Also I have spoken to CORU and they will be replacing the private bodies. CORU are a government body and therefore will be the final say on who is qualified and who isn't.

Also I'm not talking about myself, but I don't think you can say that anyone will be 'the worst possible therapist imaginable' - I think there is a bit of ego mixed up in that ! Who are you to judge?! Many people work with people after doing diplomas and I have asked people who went to them how they found the the treatment - and they all replied that the bought the person not the qualifications! - so I think you are forgetting about lived experience that can't be taught.
Just my two cents ! Don't let academia dictate who you are or how good you are, it's not everything !

Ok I'l break it down for you.

[snipped]

a 2 year masters in psychotherapy with say a background in some cognate degree is far different than what you mention.

[snipped]

lived experience is only relevant when one has the process behind them to know how to utilise it (see my above point).

your situation with that many years of psychology behind you may be different, however, the vast majority of people don't have that, therefore it will effect them

also, in Ireland you need a phd to become a counselling psychologist

and finally, CORU will have the final say [snipped]

Trishis

dar100 wrote: »

Ok I'l break it down for you.

[snipped]

a 2 year masters in psychotherapy with say a background in some cognate degree is far different than what you mention.

[snipped]

lived experience is only relevant when one has the process behind them to know how to utilise it (see my above point).

your situation with that many years of psychology behind you may be different, however, the vast majority of people don't have that, therefore it will effect them

also, in Ireland you need a phd to become a counselling psychologist

and finally, CORU will have the final say [snipped]

That's misleading to people reading this - you have no idea what CORU will decide is required as they don't even know themselves - I know this because I have spoken to them. At present they are assuming a QQI level 9.

Also you only need a Masters to be a Counselling Psychologist in Ireland. Speak to the PSI

sadie9

Can you tell us a bit more about what the PSI said to you about this?
This is what is says on the PSI website in regards to accredited post-graduate qualifications required. There is only one course listed.

"Courses that are currently accredited by PSI are as follows:
Trinity College Dublin Professional Doctorate in Counselling Psychology"

I thought that was the only course accepted by the HSE to work for them as a counsellor (if you don't have both the under-grad degree AND a degree and an accreditation from IACP/ICP in counselling/psychotherapy.)

I thought it was pretty difficult to become a Chartered Psychologist with the PSI, if you don't have the extensive experience and weekly supervision by a registered psychologist, or have not been on the psychology PHD/Doctorates.

Freedive Ireland

I'm not trying to derail the thread but asked the same question in another one, is there any evidence to show higher academic achievement shows better client outcomes? Obviously people need training and supervision before working with anyone, however do extra/higher qualifications lead to a "better" job because of client outcomes or just because it's what we expect and reward? I'm leaving CPD aside as it's a no brainer.
As was stated above, people go with professionals they trust and there are studies to show it is the relationship that matters not the type of therapy employed.
I'm asking the question here, not making a judgment?

dar100

Trishis wrote: »

That's misleading to people reading this - you have no idea what CORU will decide is required as they don't even know themselves - I know this because I have spoken to them. At present they are assuming a QQI level 9.

Also you only need a Masters to be a Counselling Psychologist in Ireland. Speak to the PSI

yes a four year level 9. All the position papers have been submitted, they will be taking the advice of the experts in the field on this. [snipped] it seems to me that you are trying to validate your confirmation bias. You ask for opinions, yet you are not happy with any opinions you have received. I tell you what, go do the degree, see what position you are in when you finish. Unless you choose to practice in private, you will be without work.

May be the case, however, try find a masters in counselling or clinical psychology in Ireland, you wont as they are all phd.

dar100

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

I'm not trying to derail the thread but asked the same question in another one, is there any evidence to show higher academic achievement shows better client outcomes? Obviously people need training and supervision before working with anyone, however do extra/higher qualifications lead to a "better" job because of client outcomes or just because it's what we expect and reward? I'm leaving CPD aside as it's a no brainer.
As was stated above, people go with professionals they trust and there are studies to show it is the relationship that matters not the type of therapy employed.
I'm asking the question here, not making a judgment?

This really depends, maybe look at it this way.

Lay person, no degree versus person with degree in counselling, who will have better outcomes with clients?

degree versus masters, who will have better outcomes? (may be harder to show)

masters versus phd (see above point)

it is not just the relationship that matters, people often suggest this, and yes, the therapeutic alliance plays a pivotal role, however the alliance is more than just the relationship.

Then we need to look at evidence based practice, again people view this as the therapy utilised, however it consists of other areas, such as; therapist knoweledge and client characteristics. One would assume that the more training a person has, the better they will be with this.

Trishis

dar100 wrote: »

yes a four year level 9. All the position papers have been submitted, they will be taking the advice of the experts in the field on this. [Snipped] it seems to me that you are trying to validate your confirmation bias. You ask for opinions, yet you are not happy with any opinions you have received. I tell you what, go do the degree, see what position you are in when you finish. Unless you choose to practice in private, you will be without work.

May be the case, however, try find a masters in counselling or clinical psychology in Ireland, you wont as they are all phd.

Dar, I'm not going to go on about this - but you can't possibly know what the government is going to decide ! I work somewhere where things like this are put together all the time and you cannot say that you know what the craic is with CORU !! It's ridiculous.

Also a level 8 is four years. A level 9 is 1-2 yrs with ICHAS.

I don't have confirmation bias - if anything I'm trying to get you to be open minded and see that what the paid accreditation bodies are telling you isn't necessarily what you should believe - also you have to take life experience into consideration - there is a lot of factors that make up a good Psychotherapist - and if you are one already I hope you realise that !

I have researched this a lot and spoken to the accreditation bodies, CORU, the PSI - it's a tricky situation at the moment and even they don't know the final outcome, so I really doubt you do !

I asked for opinions and I expect them to be balanced and friendly and helpful. I dunno where the narkiness tone in your messages to me is coming from but I'm done with the chat

Trishis

dar100 wrote: »

yes a four year level 9. All the position papers have been submitted, they will be taking the advice of the experts in the field on this. So if they don't know what it will be, why are ICHAS sayint it mustbe a 4 year degree to be a counsellor? it seems to me that you are trying to validate your confirmation bias. You ask for opinions, yet you are not happy with any opinions you have received. I tell you what, go do the degree, see what position you are in when you finish. Unless you choose to practice in private, you will be without work.

May be the case, however, try find a masters in counselling or clinical psychology in Ireland, you wont as they are all phd.

Also do a Google search - there is counselling psychology masters in Ireland.

Now I'm done.

dar100

Trishis wrote: »

Also do a Google search - there is counselling psychology masters in Ireland.

Now I'm done.

No there is not... the one in cork is no longer running, all professional counselling psychology courses are phd.

dar100

Trishis wrote: »

Dar, I'm not going to go on about this - but you can't possibly know what the government is going to decide ! I work somewhere where things like this are put together all the time and you cannot say that you know what the craic is with CORU !! It's ridiculous.

Also a level 8 is four years. A level 9 is 1-2 yrs with ICHAS.

I don't have confirmation bias - if anything I'm trying to get you to be open minded and see that what the paid accreditation bodies are telling you isn't necessarily what you should believe - also you have to take life experience into consideration - there is a lot of factors that make up a good Psychotherapist - and if you are one already I hope you realise that !

I have researched this a lot and spoken to the accreditation bodies, CORU, the PSI - it's a tricky situation at the moment and even they don't know the final outcome, so I really doubt you do !

I asked for opinions and I expect them to be balanced and friendly and helpful. I dunno where the narkiness tone in your messages to me is coming from but I'm done with the chat

What I'm saying is all the main bodies are proposing the 4 year masters to be a psychotherapist, and a 4 year counselling degree level 8 to use the term counsellor. I suspect these recommendations will be taken on board by CORU. Where else will they get their info/advice from? I'm hardly implying that I know what CORU will do.

My advice to you is if you want to be a good therapist, do a 4 year masters, with a good focus on your own process, and good clinical placements, of a few hundred hours.

it is a very tricky situation, and it may not come to pass at all. However this has been a live ongoing discussion for some time, google psychological therapies forum.

My option on ICHAS come from intimate knowledge, you did ask for lived experience after you saw others opinions on here that you did not like to

mackem7200

Several people have asked on the boards over the years does anyone have a lived experience of ICHAS?, I personally dont, but have friends who have. As a long time fully accredited psychotherapist ( IAHIP/ICP since 2006) with a masters degree in integrative psychotherapy (A university masters) and other post grad trainings. I can state having spoken over the years to 3 people/friends (non clients) who did an ICHAS masters in CBT, or masters and/or degree in counselling/psychotherapy with ICHAS/NCII. They all felt their course was poor, left them poorly trained and were not happy with their ICHAS courses in general. One friend who already previously completed a degree in social care with a recognised university told me, she felt her 2 years ICHAS masters hadnt prepared her to work safely with clients and her understanding of counselling was still poor (despite a good ICHAS grade) so she had never used it and stayed in social care. Another ICHAS former student told me he was embarrassed to tell other counsellors where he had trained, and when he tried to find a counsellor accredited with IACP or IAHIP he found some of them didnt want to take him as a client when he disclosed he was ICHAS trained.He did eventually find a IACP counsellor to see him as a client. Another friend who works with children in her day job, wanted to become a play therapist and considered a ICHAS play therapy degree (could have been a masters not sure), but after she did some research (including asking me did I know anything about ICHAS and I repeated the above) re: accreditation?, she has now decided to go with CTC (Childrens Therapy Centre) as their courses are fully accredited with IAHIP. Personally I havent experienced ICHAS courses so my only info has come from the above conversations, but I think if the only way to get accreddited from an ICHAS course is to be accredited by their own accreditation body who accredit their own courses (APPC) and not say independant bodies like IACP or IAHIP etc then its not a training route I would advise to propective students. There are plenty of courses available which meet the accreditation criteria for IACP etc which may be longer, more expensive and possibly more challenging, but I think they are worth it from the feedback I have recieved from former ICHAS students. I'm sure there are many happy ex ICHAS students but personally I havent met them yet. Hope this helps.

Betsy Og

Hi :@dar100, you seem fairly clued in on the 'landscape'. Have you ever come across Human Givens?, or any opinion on it? I see a lot of practitioners quoting their only qualification as being the Human Givens Diploma, I guess whether that will cut it with CORU is a question (...which I posed in the regulation thread...).

Overall I'm looking at Counselling/Psychotherapy as a 2nd career after I have my kids through college, about another 9 years, by which time I'll be in mid 50s and def 'now or never' time. I'd plan to have the academics covered (part time), and some personal sessions done, by then, and be ready to launch into supervised sessions.

Is it worth it at that age??, I'd hope to work away until 75 or so, health permitting. Current career is well paid but otherwise unrewarding, so I think I'll have 'done my bit' to get kids through college and a few bob into a pension and no debt, and sure worst case if I fail miserably at it I can go back to old career to pay the bills. I guess as get older then self-employment is the only option, that wouldn't bother me, would be part of the attraction, but maybe a few years 'in the trenches' of HSE/NHS etc to build the CV could be a good strategy. If there's any fatal flaws in any of that thinking your advice would be appreciated. Thank you.