The Aftermath of Collisions

ED E

Update: May 14 - Fatality with 4x4 - Cork

May 11 - Serious collision - Queen Street Dublin
May 10 - Fatality with tractor - Killarney
April 21 - Fatality with car - Skibbereen
April 14 - Serious collision with truck - Harold?s Cross Road
March 27 - Fatality with truck - Templeville Road Dublin
March 26 - Fatality with campervan - Bunratty
March 24 - Fatality with car - Patrick Street Dublin
March 12 - Fatality with car - Conyngham Road Dublin
Feb 12 - Fatality with car - Rathcoffey (Orwell spin)

I've probably missed some more minor and less reported collisions.


My issue is these incidents are reported once and then are no longer newsworthy until somebody is convicted five years later if ever again. Presumably AGS are sending collision investigators to these scenes. Is there any way that their reports can be released? If appropriate when does the coroner post findings?

IMHO its not good enough if citizens are being killed by improper road layouts or unenforced legislation that the "feedback loop" is so long. Changes, be it legislation or road design, take significant time so a delay in making these decisions can't be permitted.

2016: 10 deaths
2017: 19+ predicted

All suggestions welcome.

Unknown Soldier

ED E wrote: »

May 11 - Serious collision - Queen Street Dublin
May 10 - Fatality with tractor - Killarney
April 21 - Fatality with car - Skibbereen
April 14 - Serious collision with truck - Harold?s Cross Road
March 27 - Fatality with truck - Templeville Road Dublin
March 26 - Fatality with campervan - Bunratty
March 24 - Fatality with car - Patrick Street Dublin
March 12 - Fatality with car - Conyngham Road Dublin
Feb 12 - Fatality with car - Rathcoffey (Orwell spin)

I've probably missed some more minor and less reported collisions.


My issue is these incidents are reported once and then are no longer newsworthy until somebody is convicted five years later if ever again. Presumably AGS are sending collision investigators to these scenes. Is there any way that their reports can be released? If appropriate when does the coroner post findings?

IMHO its not good enough if citizens are being killed by improper road layouts or unenforced legislation that the "feedback loop" is so long. Changes, be it legislation or road design, take significant time so a delay in making these decisions can't be permitted.

2016: 10 deaths
2017: 19+ predicted

All suggestions welcome.

It's the same with non cycling road related deaths/crashes. There seems to be a "don't shame" the family thing in Ireland tbh, rather than educate them.

We need more of the following..

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/anatomy-of-a-car-crash-part-1-1.2025739

The rest of the story is on the links at the bottom.

hard reading tbh.

ED E

I've heard talk that one of the above may have been reckless behaviour on the part of the cyclist. If thats true it should be publicised a short while after they've been buried. A message like that could be a valuable lesson to everyone heading out of a saturday morning.

Beasty

ED E wrote: »

I've heard talk that one of the above may have been reckless behaviour on the part of the cyclist. If thats true it should be publicised a short while after they've been buried. A message like that could be a valuable lesson to everyone heading out of a saturday morning.

Inquests will be held to determine cause. No-one should be trying to pre-judge them. They will be made public. That's simply due process which us supposed to be observed in such cases

nilhg

Beasty wrote: »

Inquests will be held to determine cause. No-one should be trying to pre-judge them. They will be made public. That's simply due process which us supposed to be observed in such cases

Which is fair enough except it's often a bloody slow process.

I'm a farmer and accidental deaths and injuries are a real problem in our industry, but at least the HSA can produce some fairly detailed stats without identifying anyone or having to wait for inquests, the facts are usually clear enough.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Agriculture_Forestry/Further_Information/Fatal_Accidents/

The closest I can find on the RSA website is this

http://rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/RSA%20Provisional%20Review%20of%20Fatalities%202016.pdf

Which has some stats but no real detail.

Beasty

I suspect that in many of those agricultural cases the victim was at fault (particularly as they often happen with no-one else at the scene). Cycling incidents usually involve others and if there is any fault to apportion that can only be properly done under the judicial process. To change that would require some fundamental changes to the law and would be potentially prejudicial to anyone involved.

ford2600

While the need to understand what caused cyclist deaths is understandable, I'm not sure how necessary it is.

How to cycle/drive/walk safely is all pretty nailed down. For every death there will be multiple near misses and advice/guidance available and how to be as safe as practical.

As an aside this forum could be a brilliant resource on cycle roadcraft with a decent sticky but alas it's not.

As well as following due process in terms of investigation people should be very mindful of the effect accidental death have on families. I say that from personal experience and on a professional basis.

My own uncle was killed by a drunk driver in the 70's. The effect of that on my family, friends and the driver and his family has been pretty staggering.

Over 20 years I've probably investigated 50 plus fatal accidents. I've met immediate family members of Deceased on many occasions, more often than not shells of people, sometimes years after the accident.

Very occasionally with an unusual systems failure(or an issue with defective road surface for example) more prompt publication is called for.

I came across one years ago which only for victim surviving truth would never have come out of a very hard to replicate cherry picker malfunction; even then the manufacturer's took some convincing (I've a pretty good idea what "ye shower of Irish pricks"is in French!)

ED E

ford2600 wrote: »

Very occasionally with an unusual systems failure(or an issue with defective road surface for example) more prompt publication is called for.

Maybe, maybe not. Think it depends a lot in what part of the country you're in. Rural roads are a bit ropey but consistently so.

Our capital and some other cities have some plain stupid designs.


For example the Harolds Cross collision was discussed in depth on here and the near zero visibility was suggested as a likely cause. That being the case a layout redesign so that nobody stops directly on either side of the hump could fix it within a fortnight.

ford2600

ED E wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. Think it depends a lot in what part of the country you're in. Rural roads are a bit ropey but consistently so.

Our capital and some other cities have some plain stupid designs.


For example the Harolds Cross collision was discussed in depth on here and the near zero visibility was suggested as a likely cause. That being the case a layout redesign so that nobody stops directly on either side of the hump could fix it within a fortnight.

The NRA investigae all fatal RTA (up to Regional road level) immediately after accidents to establish if the road contributed to accident and redesign if deemed necessary.

My SIL used to do that job for a few counties

Eamonnator

I really, really wish that people would stop referring to Road Traffic Collisions as accidents!!

a148pro

I agree with op. I'd really like to see a resource where the causes of given cycling fatalities are explored. I was half thinking of doing it myself if the evidence heard at coroner's inquests was publicly available.

Chuchote

If what I've been told, one of the deaths of someone riding a bike was a true accident; the cyclist had dismounted to cross at a difficult junction, stepped back, tripped and hit head; a taxi full of doctors was coming up behind and the cyclist got immediate medical attention, but it couldn't save the poor person's life. But this is secondhand, and not from anyone who was there.

My own feeling that publicising how individual accidents happened would just be distressing to those who loved the person, without helping. But to supply the information to road designers, for instance, would be helpful in cases where the design was at fault.

Wishbone Ash

Another one was purely weather related from what I've heard at the time.

Roadtoad

Boards.ie could loosen up on the amount of 'non contentious' information they allow, eg the OP list could have time of day, daylight, nighttime or twilight, weather, direction of travellers (head on or rear end) , etc. which educates other road users more quickly.
More contentious info like potholes, lighting, inebriation etc. has no place here.

Keeks

Roadtoad wrote: »

Boards.ie could loosen up on the amount of 'non contentious' information they allow, eg the OP list could have time of day, daylight, nighttime or twilight, weather, direction of travellers (head on or rear end) , etc. which educates other road users more quickly.

No it won't. It will just be news for a day or two and then forgotten like everything else.

Beasty

Obviously another tragic event being reported today. I'm not going to comment on that, but will try and highlight what I see from the various threads we have here in relation to such tragedies and indeed wider safety issues/concerns

I think there are some trends which I am sure other posters have observed. Over the winter there are a lot fewer cyclists on the road, but bad weather affects both cyclists and motorists, and we've certainly seen a number of incidents in the January period when the roads are generally busier and motorists keener to get to their destinations a bit quicker.

This time of year a lot more cyclists are on the road as the weather improves. Motorists increase outside the Easter holiday period. Again the roads are much busier and then start to quieten as the schools begin to break up. I then notice a lot of comments on here about impatient motorists when the schools go back in early September, with things quietening down again during the half term break and the build up to XMas

So my conclusion is probably not unsurprising - we seem to see more issues when motorists return after school holiday breaks, and when the weather is bad. I put any increase in numbers of incidents we are currently seeing down more to increases in numbers of both cyclists and motorists as the country has returned to full employment following the credit crunch/recession

docker.io

It's scary I cycle from the city to coachford And back home on the dual carriageway

I'm surprised that no one has being kill on the coachford road or back road to marcoom the way drivers come around the corners at speed..
Cycling on your own is becoming a risky business.

ED E

Beasty wrote: »

So my conclusion is probably not unsurprising - we seem to see more issues when motorists return after school holiday breaks, and when the weather is bad. I put any increase in numbers of incidents we are currently seeing down more to increases in numbers of both cyclists and motorists as the country has returned to full employment following the credit crunch/recession

Do you think there are 2x as many cyclists or motorists?

2016: 10
2017 YTD (133 days): 8

I've certainly seen an increase but nowhere near 100%.

Chuchote

ED E wrote: »

Do you think there are 2x as many cyclists or motorists?

2016: 10
2017 YTD (133 days): 8

I've certainly seen an increase but nowhere near 100%.

Arithmetic not my strong point, but isn't 8 killed in half the year when 10 were killed in the whole year before nearly 100% increase?

ED E

100% increase in traffic/cyclists, not cyclist deaths. Thats the point im getting at, we've maybe 30% more cyclists but 100% more deaths.

eclipsechaser

In the scuba diving community, there used to be a register of all fatalities and reported accidents (DAN). I found it incredibly useful to read what common mistakes were made so as to be better prepared.

I think such a list would be extremely helpful for cyclists. Not everyone knows about the dangers of going up the inside of large vehicles. Not everyone knows to take the lane in certain instances. Being able to see the number of fatalities and accidents and specifically what caused them would be very helpful for cyclists. It also might open the eyes of drivers who think most deaths are caused by cyclists cycling irresponsibly (like breaking red lights).

Yes, it would be difficult for family and friends but education is more important. Every plane crash is investigated and published clearly so others can learn. This is true even when it's solely human error.

magicbastarder

That sounds similar to the situation above regarding farming accidents - there's usually only one party involved so apportioning blame is much less fraught.

Chuchote

eclipsechaser wrote: »

In the scuba diving community, there used to be a register of all fatalities and reported accidents (DAN). I found it incredibly useful to read what common mistakes were made so as to be better prepared.

I think such a list would be extremely helpful for cyclists.

Good point - and very, very useful for drivers and road designers too; for instance one of the fatal crashes was a lorry turning left and hitting a metal railings that are set at the edge of the pavement on that corner; a cyclist was crushed between the truck and the rails and killed - if those rails had been there, the person on the bike could have leaped to one side. (I don't know whether the victim had cycled up the inside or the truck had passed them out to make the turn.)

In another, it appears someone had driven out of a blind exit, turned and struck someone on a bike from behind. This exit should have notices warning drivers; it should have convex mirrors showing the road they are approaching, and in the cycle lane there should be warnings that drivers may exit fast.

In several fatal crashes, people have posted here to say "this is a notorious junction locally" - if preserving life actually meant anything to the street designers, there would be a practice of immediately taking action whenever there is a fatal crash, to make the place safe against crashes.

Mycroft H

magicbastarder wrote: »

That sounds similar to the situation above regarding farming accidents - there's usually only one party involved so apportioning blame is much less fraught.

Air Crash Investigations don't apportion blame; the find out the facts and let other authorities prosecute or not. How come there isn't one for fatal collisions?

Chuchote

Mycroft H wrote: »

Air Crash Investigations don't apportion blame; the find out the facts and let other authorities prosecute or not. How come there isn't one for fatal collisions?

Excellent point, and one to bring up with irishcycling.com and the cycling clubs, as the ginger groups will inevitably be able to put it forward to government with our backing. It would be worth pulling the AA and RSA in on this too. And indeed Transport for Ireland and their cycle infrastructure designers, who could add expertise to such an investigation group.

ED E

Mycroft H wrote: »

Air Crash Investigations don't apportion blame; the find out the facts and let other authorities prosecute or not. How come there isn't one for fatal collisions?

They do have the power to issue safety recommendations which are can be as powerful as legislation within the CA domain.

magicbastarder

Mycroft H wrote: »

Air Crash Investigations don't apportion blame; the find out the facts and let other authorities prosecute or not. How come there isn't one for fatal collisions?

i was referring to scuba accidents.
however, air crash investigations take months, if not years, and there's usually multiple deaths for them to get the attention of the media. by which time, for a victim who was a cyclist, the eyes of the media have long since moved on.

Unknown Soldier

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

It's the same with non cycling road related deaths/crashes. There seems to be a "don't shame" the family thing in Ireland tbh, rather than educate them.

We need more of the following..

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/anatomy-of-a-car-crash-part-1-1.2025739

The rest of the story is on the links at the bottom.

hard reading tbh.

eclipsechaser wrote: »

In the scuba diving community, there used to be a register of all fatalities and reported accidents (DAN). I found it incredibly useful to read what common mistakes were made so as to be better prepared.

I think such a list would be extremely helpful for cyclists. Not everyone knows about the dangers of going up the inside of large vehicles. Not everyone knows to take the lane in certain instances. Being able to see the number of fatalities and accidents and specifically what caused them would be very helpful for cyclists. It also might open the eyes of drivers who think most deaths are caused by cyclists cycling irresponsibly (like breaking red lights).

Yes, it would be difficult for family and friends but education is more important. Every plane crash is investigated and published clearly so others can learn. This is true even when it's solely human error.

Just to correct myself....

I am not looking for in depth "stories" like the one I linked to in the Times, but like that Scuba type one mentioned.

Just the bare bones details, and anonymity for those involved. Just the facts about what happened.

And not just cycling related, all Traffic accidents.

To add to Beasty's comments, there were some good stats on M50 crashes recently on the Churnal.ie
http://www.thejournal.ie/m50-accident-stats-3385074-May2017/

OleRodrigo

I know there is a real issue with bike paths joining on to roads, for example. A moving bike can check the path is clear to join the road and move out, while a car in the outer lane decides to change to the inner lane at the same moment. Both have checked their respective paths are clear and make their move and seconds later collide.

I know that was how a recent collision in Dublin played out and something very similar happened , by the looks of it, in a more recent one outside Dublin.

You can only hope the car isn't moving too fast if it happens.

Chuchote

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I know there is a real issue with bike paths joining on to roads, for example. A moving bike can check the path is clear to join the road and move out, while a car in the outer lane decides to change to the inner lane at the same moment. Both have checked their respective paths are clear and make their move and seconds later collide.

I know that was how a recent collision in Dublin played out and something very similar happened , by the looks of it, in a more recent one outside Dublin.

Thing is, you cant really do anything to stop this. You cant anticipate an unexpected maneuver. You can only hope the car isn't moving too fast if it happens.

Convex mirrors showing the road ahead (and notices on both roads advising caution) would help.

Lumen

eclipsechaser wrote: »

In the scuba diving community, there used to be a register of all fatalities and reported accidents (DAN). I found it incredibly useful to read what common mistakes were made so as to be better prepared.

Same with skydiving fatalities.

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/

AndrewJRenko

There will be a Coroner's Inquest for any of these deaths, though it can be months or years afterwards. I'd be concerned that Coroners frequently go beyond their professional training (medical or legal) to make comments or recommendations that are victim-blaming - helmets, hi-vis and that nonsense - rather than putting the responsibility on motorists to control their vehicles.

Mycroft H

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There will be a Coroner's Inquest for any of these deaths, though it can be months or years afterwards. I'd be concerned that Coroners frequently go beyond their professional training (medical or legal) to make comments or recommendations that are victim-blaming - helmets, hi-vis and that nonsense - rather than putting the responsibility on motorists to control their vehicles.

Are coroners inquests viewable online?

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was referring to scuba accidents.
however, air crash investigations take months, if not years

Not entirely true. Prelim reports come out quickly, remember R116's prelim and safety notices are out already from a March 14th crash.

jimmycrackcorm

I've posted it before but the NRA really need to do an advertising campaign to educate on the deadly mix of cyclist, trucks and junctions.

Their current advertising seems to be to tell drivers not to get annoyed about groups of cyclists travelling in pairs..

Unless you happen across reporting on a particular inquest, there is no good source of information about causes of collisions.

ED E

Mycroft H wrote: »

Are coroners inquests viewable online?

19. Can the report of an inquest be obtained?

Copies of the post-mortem report and depositions taken at inquest including a copy of the verdict are available from the coroner?s office on payment of the statutory fee, once the inquest has concluded. It should be noted that inquest papers are generally not available prior to the inquest being held.

The Freedom of Information Act 1997 does not apply to coroners inquests and inquiries. Documents are available under the Coroner?s Act 1962 [see also S.I. No. 429 of 2000 (Fees and Expenses)].

Danbo!

eclipsechaser wrote: »

Yes, it would be difficult for family and friends but education is more important. Every plane crash is investigated and published clearly so others can learn. This is true even when it's solely human error.

There was a motorcyclist in the UK killed when a car turned across his path and hit him. His mother released the helmet cam footage to highlight the dangers to others, both motorists and motorcyclists.

Very tough thing to do for her, but imo far more effective than any scripted road safety ad.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-29084417

Given that a couple of the recent fatal/serious crashes were on my commute, I'd like to know if there's anything at all I can learn from them. Using a camera myself, and after reading the story above, I've told the missus to release the footage if anything ever happens, even if it's a mistake I've made. Though I suppose it's an easy thing to say without having experienced anything like it.

ganmo

what happened to the white bike campaign?

AndrewJRenko

Mycroft H wrote: »

Are coroners inquests viewable online?

No, but most high profile incidents, like road deaths, are reported in the press.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've posted it before but the NRA really need to do an advertising campaign to educate on the deadly mix of cyclist, trucks and junctions.

Their current advertising seems to be to tell drivers not to get annoyed about groups of cyclists travelling in pairs..

It is the RSA you're thinking of, not the NRA, which actually doesn't exist any more.

But I'm not sure that advertising campaigns like this are actually effective in achieving behavioural change.

average_runner

If you look at the accident with the Volkswagon yesterday. Six people in the car, which means one was not wearing a seat belt at least. Of course its not highlighted, we go with the sympathy route

ED E

ganmo wrote: »

what happened to the white bike campaign?

I asked that before in a previous thread. Policy/Procedure isnt precisely clear and you definitely would not want to upset the bereaved family but IMO they're an important reminder that should be erected.

May take on the Templeville road one myself. Would love input on when is too soon.

1bryan

ED E wrote: »

I asked that before in a previous thread. Policy/Procedure isnt precisely clear and you definitely would not want to upset the bereaved family but IMO they're an important reminder that should be erected.

May take on the Templeville road one myself. Would love input on when is too soon.

I would suggest you don't do that. It's up to the family to decide how their loved one is remembered.

ED E

1bryan wrote: »

I would suggest you don't do that. It's up to the family to decide how their loved one is remembered.

Sorry if that wasn't clear, with the families permission of course.

1bryan

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There will be a Coroner's Inquest for any of these deaths, though it can be months or years afterwards. I'd be concerned that Coroners frequently go beyond their professional training (medical or legal) to make comments or recommendations that are victim-blaming - helmets, hi-vis and that nonsense - rather than putting the responsibility on motorists to control their vehicles.

let's be clear on what an inquest actually is here, because people are confusing them with trials.

After a fatality, a garda investigation takes place. The resulting report gets sent to the DPP who decides whether criminal charges are to be brought or not. If they are, it's put forward to the criminal courts. If the DPP considers that it was an 'accident' (ie: no charges should be brought), it goes forward to the coroner's court.

When a fatality occurs, the family are issued with a temporary death cert. This cert can initially be used to get access to some of the assets of the deceased. For example, if the deceased was the main earner in the family, bills will still need to be paid, etc.

The temporary death cert can not be used to claim from life insurance policies. The reason for this is that there is no official 'Cause of Death'. That is the role of the inquest - to determine the cause of death - NOTHING else. Certainly not to apportion blame.

An inquest will, to a large extent, follow the same procedures as a regular court case. A jury is sworn in, witnesses testify, etc, but the end result is to decide what goes in the 'Cause of Death' field on the death cert. For example, you'll hear things in the news about verdicts of 'Death by Misadventure', 'Accidental death', etc.

Basically, life insurance policies can't be claimed if a person took their own life.

At the end of an inquest, recommendations will be made. In my experience those recommendations come from the jury, not the coroner (who acts as judge). If any frustrations should be vented, it should be as a result of inaction on those recommendations.

Sadly, there was a cycling related fatality in my immediate family. I was involved in the inquest and saw this all first-hand. The recommendations that were made were reasonable and did offer some degree of comfort. However, nothing was ever done about it.

Inquests are a total waste of time, tbh.

AndrewJRenko

1bryan wrote: »

let's be clear on what an inquest actually is here, because people are confusing them with trials.

After a fatality, a garda investigation takes place. The resulting report gets sent to the DPP who decides whether criminal charges are to be brought or not. If they are, it's put forward to the criminal courts. If the DPP considers that it was an 'accident' (ie: no charges should be brought), it goes forward to the coroner's court.

When a fatality occurs, the family are issued with a temporary death cert. This cert can initially be used to get access to some of the assets of the deceased. For example, if the deceased was the main earner in the family, bills will still need to be paid, etc.

The temporary death cert can not be used to claim from life insurance policies. The reason for this is that there is no official 'Cause of Death'. That is the role of the inquest - to determine the cause of death - NOTHING else. Certainly not to apportion blame.

An inquest will, to a large extent, follow the same procedures as a regular court case. A jury is sworn in, witnesses testify, etc, but the end result is to decide what goes in the 'Cause of Death' field on the death cert. For example, you'll hear things in the news about verdicts of 'Death by Misadventure', 'Accidental death', etc.

Basically, life insurance policies can't be claimed if a person took their own life.

At the end of an inquest, recommendations will be made. In my experience those recommendations come from the jury, not the coroner (who acts as judge). If any frustrations should be vented, it should be as a result of inaction on those recommendations.

Sadly, there was a cycling related fatality in my immediate family. I was involved in the inquest and saw this all first-hand. The recommendations that were made were reasonable and did offer some degree of comfort. However, nothing was ever done about it.

Inquests are a total waste of time, tbh.

It's this kind of Coroners' recommendations that I was thinking about;

http://connachttribune.ie/helmet-might-have-saved-cyclist-from-fatal-injuries-987/

and similar stuff from the UK

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/warning-on-headphones-as-cyclist-ruled-to-have-caused-own-death/

Coroners don't really have the expertise to rule on these matters.

ED E

8th cycling fatality was in fact a pedestrian at time of collision. RIP.

ED E

IMAGES: Photos by Emma Loughran.

Family of Daragh Ryan, the 30-year-old man who lost his life in a recent collision beside the Islandbridge gate to the Phoenix Park in Dublin, said he a was a ?brilliant and kind young man with a bright future?.

His family have placed a ghost bike at the junction where the collision happened last month.

...
http://irishcycle.com/2017/05/26/family-says-daragh-wasnt-just-a-cyclist-as-they-place-ghost-bike-at-islandbridge-gate-to-phoenix-park/

ED E

Female Cyclists in her 60's killed in Cork today. RIP.

magicbastarder

ah crap. RIP.

Terrible news

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0913/904441-cork-rta/

Chuchote

ED E wrote: »

I've heard talk that one of the above may have been reckless behaviour on the part of the cyclist. If thats true it should be publicised a short while after they've been buried. A message like that could be a valuable lesson to everyone heading out of a saturday morning.

I "heard talk" last week that a cyclist had died after a crash on Howth Hill. The story included allegations about the speed shown on his speedometer.
The story was incorrect in every detail except the fact that a van and cyclist had crashed.