Formula for farm spending ?

Bullocks

Do ye have any formula for what to spend and where on the farm ?
I would be a bare necessities type spender and pocket as much as can for myself . There isn't alot to pocket anyhow here .
The father would like machinery and spends a bit too much there but it's almost a hobby now for him
I got thinking about it yesterday when I called into a neighbour that's after buying a spanking ifor 12 x 5'6" cattle trailer . He has 4 sucklers and buys maybe 5 or 10 suck calves to rear . The farm is in one block except for one silage garden that the cattle graze at the end of the year . Seems madness

_Brian

Let them at it.
We all have different aspects we like, I'd spend every penny eliminating weeds if I were let (which I'm not), somewhat of an obsession I'm told.

We budget for the money within the system, no additional money comes onto the farm other than cattle sales and payments which are very small indeed. But then we're not trying to support a house, in the hobby end of things really, small returns to the house.

I said

Fencing and water system now that's nearly done another reseed everything made by the farm goes back into it.

Username John

Minimum spend here..

Same as _Brian - I'm more on the hobby side of things...

Goal is to take out enough to pay for the family holidays... (more if possible, but that's the kinda minimum)

However, to do that, it means minimum enough spending...

But, there are some other things that get bought, more for the long term - lime, fertilser, etc... Might not see an immediate return, but try to improve things gradually...

Oh, and fencing, cos no mater how good it seems, the fcuking ewes always seem to find one gap every year...

kk.man

I don't take a penny for myself out of the place but every year I do one thing constructive like a new machine(second hand mostly), improve stock no's and general maintenance about the farm. I have stopped putting my own money in awhile back. It has to survive on its own now.

rangler1

I said wrote: »

Fencing and water system now that's nearly done another reseed everything made by the farm goes back into it.

I'd put a question mark over reseeding, the modern grasses need high fertility and nitrogen along with good management, I can show you countless drystock farms that are reseeded and have degenerated to worse than before in only few years.

mahoney_j

Grassland
Roadways
Water
Cow health /nutrition
There my main ones after that I've no issue spending money on things /gadgets nor machinery that makes my working day easier and shorter

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

I'd put a question mark over reseeding, the modern grasses need high fertility and nitrogen along with good management, I can show you countless drystock farms that are reseeded and have degenerated to worse than before in only few years.

It all depends on what your sward is like to begin with I guess...

I know we have kinda had this chat before Rangler - but a mistake I made was reseeding / reclaiming without making sure my existing grass was producing as much as it could first (pH, indices)

kerry cow

There's no end to spending money on a farm .and when you see a model farm and aspire to it one day , it's endless to what it has cost .
When people buy land and buildings it sometimes not reflect in the price the cost of beauty .
Well done to all who reinvest what they can .It's not easy

I said

rangler1 wrote: »

I'd put a question mark over reseeding, the modern grasses need high fertility and nitrogen along with good management, I can show you countless drystock farms that are reseeded and have degenerated to worse than before in only few years.

Reseed silage ground every 3-5 years get as much as I can out of it.
Grazing ground is motoring away nicely with paddock grazing

Muckit

rangler1 wrote: »

I'd put a question mark over reseeding, the modern grasses need high fertility and nitrogen along with good management, I can show you countless drystock farms that are reseeded and have degenerated to worse than before in only few years.

I would agree 100% with this. Silage ground perhaps, but after that the viability of reseeding on a drystock farm is questionable.

A good old lye that has tillered well and free from weeds should be the goal of most lads first. If you can't manage that much, forget about a reseed.

cotton_picker

im only part time but i dont even have a tractor , i have a little skid steer for feeding but everything else is done by contractor , i have a quad spreader i put on the back of the jeep for fertilizer , it cost me 800 quid but then i only spread 4 tonne per year , ive twenty sucklers

every form of expenditure is a waste on beef farms , i include reseeding

you farm subsidies

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

It all depends on what your sward is like to begin with I guess...

I know we have kinda had this chat before Rangler - but a mistake I made was reseeding / reclaiming without making sure my existing grass was producing as much as it could first (pH, indices)

I know I'm always on about it, but I've seen so many neglected reseeds, it's no harm to flag it for those that think it's an easy fix.
Reseeded ground will give higher daily liveweight gain for a longer season, but it has to be minded.

_Brian

I'd feel guilty taking money away from the home account, with two active kids, mortgage, cars to run and holidays to have it's more I need in the home account not less.

From direct payments some goes to the mother to run her car, balance is spent on upgrades, crush, refurb sheds, drainage, fencing, some second hand machinery, all bought in expectation that direct payments won't always be there.

yosemitesam1

rangler1 wrote: »

I know I'm always on about it, but I've seen so many neglected reseeds, it's no harm to flag it for those that think it's an easy fix.
Reseeded ground will give higher daily liveweight gain for a longer season, but it has to be minded.

I'd question the return on nitrogen also, would would be of the opinion that gain is fairly marginal at best

rangler1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I'd question the return on nitrogen also, would would be of the opinion that gain is fairly marginal at best

depends on your stocking rate, a amall amount can make a big difference especially if spread in march and september even on old leys..
If everything else is right of course

davidk1394

Purchase 1 or 2 good rams a year. Reseed about 8 percent a year and use swedes as break crop. Main spend the last few years was fencing, fert, dose and feckìng feed for lambs. Used money a few years ago to purchase a wrapper but now all the contracting is separate to the farm.

patsy_mccabe

Depressing to hear ye all question the value of reseeding. It's the one thing I'm not doing here, that I had planned to do in the future.
What are peoples view on keeping sheep with cattle/sucklers. They seem to do wonders for the grass quality.

rangler1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Depressing to hear ye all question the value of reseeding. It's the one thing I'm not doing here, that I had planned to do in the future.
What are peoples view on keeping sheep with cattle/sucklers. They seem to do wonders for the grass quality.

Yea, you can keep a ewe or two to the acre with cattle at very low cost and they'll out perform lambs on an all sheep farm as well as improve the grass....win win really

Grueller

X>Y is the formula where X is farm income and Y is farm spending.

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

Yea, you can keep a ewe or two to the acre with cattle at very low cost and they'll out perform lambs on an all sheep farm as well as improve the grass....win win really

Aye,but the sheep will eat the grass down to the butt and in times like now you'll have no grass

The part time boy

Interesting most replies seem to be from part time farming .

Is there more part times lads here vs full time ?

When I was full time I used to spend mad. Concrete . Sheds . More cows . Machinery . General improvements .

How that i am part time there a big change. My entilments and rent for sillage cuts don't go into my farm account .

The plan is any surplus (if any) in cattle will go back into the farm . I am l only in year 3 so it's hard to judge a surplus as I keep changing my systems .

I started off rearing replacement heifers (as I had some ) sold them in spring of 16 and lost my shirt as price was very poor that year. 2015 and 2017 seem to be lot stronger but I don't see me going back there . I am in suckler now but after this year they going as well as too much work calving them when I not around .

I have lots of ideas for surplus . Reseeding , fencing and concrete are on the wish list but I think most of any surplus will go into more stock.

When my business makes its first million turnover I may put more money into farm to finish my wishlist !

Kinda strange everyone saying reseeding is waste of time / money

Any reseeding we ever done you see a massive difference in the bulk that when the cows are in that field. That boast also has to help cattle with weight gain

Dunedin

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Depressing to hear ye all question the value of reseeding. .

Don't think anyone is questioning the value of reseeding but more so that unless you have good management of reseeds then you won't get the value.

A more viable option as opposed to reseeding for beef/part time farmers might be a better fertiliser plan inclusive of regular soil sampling together with regular spraying.

Wildsurfer

I think the point that was made in regards to reseeding is that if not going to be managed properly afterwards it is a waste of money. A new reseed needs to be kept well fertilised and ph kept right or weed grasses will come back into the sward. I saw it beside me where a lad part time farming with a few sucklers reseeded way too much ground in the one year thinking it would magically grow grass without any fertilizer after that. It was sickening to see the sward turning yellow crying out for NP&K.

Who2

For a reseed to work properly it needs to be stocked to the stones and fed the same way, otherwise your wasting your time with it , doing beef. I learnt the hard way a good while back and reseeded too much, hadn't the stock to graze it , so didn't bag it,i had spent too much on the reseed itself so couldn't buy more stock and ended up wasting money, because the reseed went stale.

As for spending formulas: if its there i spend it and i love spending money. I try to keep the farm and job seperate but id be only fooling myself if i said i havent at some stage or another pulled money from one to the other in some way or another.

Green farmer

I've old grass swards. Fixed ph this year and going with a light dusting of 18 6 12 between grazings . Hoping to start reseeding but won't be done overnight , as have to put food on the table takes priority. just doing things gradually over a number of years. Joining every scheme I can to build up direct payments costs very little other them my time.

Water John

I think some grass mixes are very hungry for bag manure. They are suitable for heavily stocked dairying. Drystock farmers need to pick seed carefully.
Strong place also for clover.

Robson99

Muckit wrote: »

I would agree 100% with this. Silage ground perhaps, but after that the viability of reseeding on a drystock farm is questionable.

A good old lye that has tillered well and free from weeds should be the goal of most lads first. If you can't manage that much, forget about a reseed.

The amount of grass grown between an old lay and a new reseed both being equal in indices is like chalk and cheese.
But there is no point in reseeding if you are not going to manure it.

Quick question for the beef /suckler farmers here. How many units of nitrogen per acre would there grazing ground get over the course of the year ?

The part time boy

Robson99 wrote: »

Muckit wrote: »

I would agree 100% with this. Silage ground perhaps, but after that the viability of reseeding on a drystock farm is questionable.

A good old lye that has tillered well and free from weeds should be the goal of most lads first. If you can't manage that much, forget about a reseed.

The amount of grass grown between an old lay and a new reseed both being equal in indices is like chalk and cheese.
But there is no point in reseeding if you are not going to manure it.

Quick question for the beef /suckler farmers here. How many units of nitrogen per acre would there grazing ground get over the course of the year ?

130 to 160 planned here

Bass Reeves

Robson99 wrote: »

The amount of grass grown between an old lay and a new reseed both being equal in indices is like chalk and cheese.
But there is no point in reseeding if you are not going to manure it.

Quick question for the beef /suckler farmers here. How many units of nitrogen per acre would there grazing ground get over the course of the year ?

I am averaging about 110 units of N/acre across silage and grazing ground

Robson99

The part time boy wrote: »

130 to 160 planned here

5 bags niitrogen per acre on grazing ground is a right good feed. You must be well stocked

minktrapper

The formula is very simple. If it pays for itself then spend it.Its a business not a charity.

Robson99

Formula here is Sun holiday paid for by the farm every year. Whats left is reinvested in sheds machinery reseeding lime increasing stocking rate etc

The part time boy

Robson99 wrote: »

The part time boy wrote: »

130 to 160 planned here

5 bags niitrogen per acre on grazing ground is a right good feed. You must be well stocked

I am . Probably over stocked

1.3 livestock unit to acre . I 9 acres of the 25 closed up for one cut of sillage . I also have 50 acres that come into grazing at end of sep also . As well I got some early grazing from the that ground as well. I let that for 2 cuts .

I will have a few cows fit in few months that i probably sell

The part time boy

Robson99 wrote: »

Formula here is Sun holiday paid for by the farm every year. Whats left is reinvested in sheds machinery reseeding lime increasing stocking rate etc

Does your single farm payment go into farm or personal ?

Robson99

The part time boy wrote: »

Does your single farm payment go into farm or personal ?

All farm monies in together. Farming only part time here so I'm as well investing a bit back into the farm as paying tax in it.
Have 80% of our land reseeded here over the last 6 years or so. 2 mistakes made.
1. Under stocked and under fertilised to maximise the potential of the new reseed. Only ave 70 units of N being spread across silage and grazing. [ excl slurry and dung]. Slowly convincing old fella that we need more cattle to eliminate the topping and to pay for the reseeding.
2. Would invest in a grass/tine harrow with seed broadcaster like what Reggie bought instead of the chain harrow we bought. Would do same job as the chain harrow but could also spread seed ourselves.

rangler1

The part time boy wrote: »

I am . Probably over stocked

1.3 livestock unit to acre . I 9 acres of the 25 closed up for one cut of sillage . I also have 50 acres that come into grazing at end of sep also . As well I got some early grazing from the that ground as well. I let that for 2 cuts .

I will have a few cows fit in few months that i probably sell

Do you ever do soil tests to monitor how much two cuts is taking from the soil compared with what you're putting back,

yosemitesam1

Dunedin wrote: »

Don't think anyone is questioning the value of reseeding but more so that unless you have good management of reseeds then you won't get the value.

A more viable option as opposed to reseeding for beef/part time farmers might be a better fertiliser plan inclusive of regular soil sampling together with regular spraying.

IMO most old pasture isn't productive because it was managed to make it that way, a well managed old sward should be able to grow 10t+ with no bag n.
A lot of lads are buying high grass yields with the extra yield not being far off the price of meal...

CloughCasey1

Are we going to have a row over reseeding again R1☺. Ive 10 15mt olds on 4.2acres in 5 paddocks of high clover re-seed that gets bag of urea in Feb and maybe a bag of 10-10-20 twice after that. I have 12 yearlings on 6.35acres in 4 paddocks that has the same ph and indexes 3 for both p&k and will get bag urea in feb and 3/4 bags 18-6-12 after that to keep grass in front of them. I agree and look in over enough ditches that not minding a re-seed is a total waste of money. But keep it ticking along and a soil test every few yrs then it leaves older leys for dust.
Look at it this way. You have an old 1970s house. No insulation in cavity and 50mm old fibreglass in attic. Cold house. Pump cavity and add 200 to attic and you have a warmer house. Dont maintain your boiler as this new insulation "keeps your house warm on its own". Boiler gets less efficient and you are back to square one burning more oil to keep your house warm.
On the farm spending. Maintain what machinery that is here. Money used to re-seed slowly and introduce paddock ststem. Buy in cattle less than €600 (if you see a dearer bargain then that is fine) try and double money at least on animals and hope they will leave 250-300 per head. All profit dumped into mortgage of house and start again.

Username John

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

IMO most old pasture isn't productive because it was managed to make it that way, a well managed old sward should be able to grow 10t+ with no bag n.
A lot of lads are buying high grass yields with the extra yield not being far off the price of meal...

Can you define what you mean by 'well managed' Sam?

yosemitesam1

Username John wrote: »

Can you define what you mean by 'well managed' Sam?

Managed to favour productive species.
E.g. rotational grazing, don't skin the place heading into the winter but don't carry big covers that will rot either as you'll favour growth of bent grass etc who suffer less than the likes of ryegrass/cocksfoot.

The part time boy

rangler1 wrote: »

The part time boy wrote: »

I am . Probably over stocked

1.3 livestock unit to acre . I 9 acres of the 25 closed up for one cut of sillage . I also have 50 acres that come into grazing at end of sep also . As well I got some early grazing from the that ground as well. I let that for 2 cuts .

I will have a few cows fit in few months that i probably sell

Do you ever do soil tests to monitor how much two cuts is taking from the soil compared with what you're putting back,

This is only year 2 of it . But they spread a lot of slury on it to be fair . I also have 40 acres that someone is growing grain on and they will test and bring up the p and k. There a 5 year rotation so the sillage ground last year will be put into tillage and p and k increased by the lads renting it .

If that makes sense

rangler1

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Are we going to have a row over reseeding again R1☺. Ive 10 15mt olds on 4.2acres in 5 paddocks of high clover re-seed that gets bag of urea in Feb and maybe a bag of 10-10-20 twice after that. I have 12 yearlings on 6.35acres in 4 paddocks that has the same ph and indexes 3 for both p&k and will get bag urea in feb and 3/4 bags 18-6-12 after that to keep grass in front of them. I agree and look in over enough ditches that not minding a re-seed is a total waste of money. But keep it ticking along and a soil test every few yrs then it leaves older leys for dust.
Look at it this way. You have an old 1970s house. No insulation in cavity and 50mm old fibreglass in attic. Cold house. Pump cavity and add 200 to attic and you have a warmer house. Dont maintain your boiler as this new insulation "keeps your house warm on its own". Boiler gets less efficient and you are back to square one burning more oil to keep your house warm.
On the farm spending. Maintain what machinery that is here. Money used to re-seed slowly and introduce paddock ststem. Buy in cattle less than €600 (if you see a dearer bargain then that is fine) try and double money at least on animals and hope they will leave 250-300 per head. All profit dumped into mortgage of house and start again.

540 ewes and 820 lambs on 70 acres that was reseeded the year the pope was here.....1982??
2cwt 18 6 12/acre in march, am i going to improve it that much by reseeding

Bass Reeves

I am starting to become an agnostic on reseeding. I often think it is pushed by Teagasc and farming publications as an answer to output. Now I have reseeded most of the farm over the last 10 years. Herein lies the problem it excluded me from the GLAS low input grassland. That cost me 2-3K in GLAS money and made it virtually uneconic to enter GLAS.

You can however increase productivity of old pastures by spraying weeds and getting fertility and ph right. Spraying weeds has the ability to increase grass output by 20-50% When making silage you are bringing in a clean crop that will not cause weeds seeds to go back out in slurry.

Increasing output will not necessiarly increase profitability. You can increase output using rations but this is often only break even after costs. Anything that will reduce costs longterm may well increase output and leave a margion longterm such as drainage and paddocking.

Drystock is different to milk as profitability is low and increasing out put may not increase profitability. It will be interesting to lok at the FJ high output suckler farm. What would be an eyeopner is to compare two systems where lads had 150-200 acre drystock farms and compsre a high input/output system with a medium input and out put system to see whether the effort and cost involved in the highip/op system was worth it.

Muckit

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

IMO most old pasture isn't productive because it was managed to make it that way, a well managed old sward should be able to grow 10t+ with no bag n.
A lot of lads are buying high grass yields with the extra yield not being far off the price of meal...

I see a v good fulltime dairy farmer near here. Never does a bit of reseeding and always has great grass in front of the cows. Now I'm thinking he's no fool. So how would it pay a part-time drystock lad to reseed? Especially if you haven't the stock to eat it, the returns to pay for fertiliser or the skills to manage it?

Muckit

100% agree with you there bass. Drystock farmers need to be getting into every scheme possible. Glas is one of them. I have just enough ground and different land parcels to get the most out of it with minimal spend. It's as much about farming the system as the land.

Paddocks and reels are the way to go. Fresh grass every 3-4 days. 'Keeping them moving will keep them moving.'

Time management is the next big one after grazing management. Put a value on your time. The more time you have, the more you'll piss about and fill it. That's fine for when you're retired. I'd always be asking myself how l can cut back hours. The return isn't in it to pay for pissing about.

yosemitesam1

Muckit wrote: »

I see a v good fulltime dairy farmer near here. Never does a bit of reseeding and always has great grass in front of the cows. Now I'm thinking he's no fool. So how would it pay a part-time drystock lad to reseed? Especially if you haven't the stock to eat it, the returns to pay for fertiliser or the skills to manage it?

All of the old grass varieties from the UK with s followed by a number were all only selections, ie bred over many years by the farmers management to have whatever attributes. The breeder just filtered out some of the variance to give a more consistent result when sowed.
It's only in recent enough years that the last of these has been removed from the UK recommended list.

minktrapper

Robson99 wrote: »

Formula here is Sun holiday paid for by the farm every year. Whats left is reinvested in sheds machinery reseeding lime increasing stocking rate etc

I hope you are only a part time farmer.

The part time boy

minktrapper wrote: »

I hope you are only a part time farmer.

What you mean only lol

Are we 2nd class

minktrapper

If you are only expecting a holiday from running your business. What about living expenses.

cute geoge

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

All of the old grass varieties from the UK with s followed by a number were all only selections, ie bred over many years by the farmers management to have whatever attributes. The breeder just filtered out some of the variance to give a more consistent result when sowed.
It's only in recent enough years that the last of these has been removed from the UK recommended list.

I don't get what you are on about .
Imo the grass seed 20+ years ago seemed to be far supperior then present .
Locally some leys seeded 25 years ago still out preform alot of new leys and there seemed to have excellent ground cover as well