How much milk is too much milk?

CPTM

Does anyone have any thoughts on how much milk is too much milk, especially long-term?!

I'm training hard, in good shape, but I'm drinking what some might deem as an awful lot of milk. Lidl sell Coolmere Protein milk, 50 grams of protein per litre for 99 cent.

I'm drinking about 2/3 of these per day because I've noticed I'm making more gains in the gym, and I prefer the taste of that milk over any supplements.. though sometimes I need to tap into my Gold Standard protein to reach my macros with my meals.

For example, one of the reasons I'm worried is the amount of sugar that's in milk. 50 grams in 1 litre... Any thoughts? Anything else I should know?!

marialouise

So that's 5g of protein in 100ml? Isn't that just regular milk?

Drinking 3 litres is 150g sugar if your information is correct, and probably about 1800kcal or something? You're not making gains because the milk has protein, you're gaining weight because you're drinking a large amount of calories and you are now in a calorie surplus.

Milk can be a helpful way to gain weight for people who might struggle to eat a lot (see GOMAD) but it should not be a staple part of your diet in this amount.
If you're having trouble hitting protein from food and then needing 150g from milk, what exactly are you eating the rest of the day that makes it so hard for you to get protein in? How much protein are you aiming to have, what are your macros and calories like?

I easily hit 150g protein every day and I don't drink any milk.

I'll wait to hear your answers about your current eating before I offer anymore advice, but you know you can also buy unflavoured whey? Or find a flavour that you do like? Or just eat more chicken, I think 150g of sugar from milk is madness but maybe others will disagree..

CPTM

marialouise wrote: »

So that's 5g of protein in 100ml? Isn't that just regular milk?

Drinking 3 litres is 150g sugar if your information is correct, and probably about 1800kcal or something? You're not making gains because the milk has protein, you're gaining weight because you're drinking a large amount of calories and you are now in a calorie surplus.

Milk can be a helpful way to gain weight for people who might struggle to eat a lot (see GOMAD) but it should not be a staple part of your diet in this amount.
If you're having trouble hitting protein from food and then needing 150g from milk, what exactly are you eating the rest of the day that makes it so hard for you to get protein in? How much protein are you aiming to have, what are your macros and calories like?

I easily hit 150g protein every day and I don't drink any milk.

I'll wait to hear your answers about your current eating before I offer anymore advice, but you know you can also buy unflavoured whey? Or find a flavour that you do like? Or just eat more chicken, I think 150g of sugar from milk is madness but maybe others will disagree..

Well I hope I'm right in saying there's that much sugar - my only source of information is the side of the packet which says "Carbs which sugar" is 9.8 grams per 200ml. But maybe that's a different type of sugar (I don't think so though?)

During the week it's 2 liters in fairness.. 500ml with breakfast and also with Lunch.. and then a liter in the evening. On the weekends when I've more time it seems to spike to 3L. I should mention that it's not a chore by the way, in that I love every last drop!

Rest of my diet is pretty standard..

- Porridge for breakfast 1
- Gym
- Peanut butter and toast breakfast 2

Lunch: Chicken sandwich and piece of fruit

Snack: Protein shake/Cashew Nuts

Dinner: Meat and two veg type job.

I'm more than hitting the 200 grams of protein I've estimated for myself (12.5 stone and building to 13 stone). My core is looking good which is my normal gauge for body fat without getting the proper test.

I've just heard that, for example, the high sugar content in fruit is not as dangerous as high sugar content in chocolate bars, because the sugar is offset by the fiber or something in the fruit. So it needs to be watched, but not as carefully as eating sweets. I wonder if it's the same for milk, or am I just on a delicious road to diabetes.

Thanks for the GOMAD note - it's basically what I'm doing to a lesser extent, and without realising. There's some interesting material on it.

CPTM

marialouise wrote: »

So that's 5g of protein in 100ml? Isn't that just regular milk?

Sorry, just reading this correctly now. Yes, it's similar. Regular milk is 3.4 grams in 100ml. So 1 liter is 34 grams Vs 50 grams of this other (nicer imo) stuff.

marialouise

And without the milk what's your protein like? You're not getting much at breakfast, only getting some in your chicken at lunch, and meat at dinner and the rest is from milk or supplements. There's nothing wrong with that exactly, but there are loads of ways of getting 50g of protein for <5g sugar.
Also isn't milk like 3.5% fat? So you're getting 70-105g fat ever day from milk alone, plus nuts and nut butter, it's no wonder you're gaining weight!
As an aside, you don't need more than 200g protein so no need to try and get more than that.
Also I kind of think sugar is sugar, I don't eat a lot of fruit for that reason but I do eat some. I'd usually eat vegetables instead.
I dunno if my body knows the difference between sugar from
Tomato or sugar from haribo but I just try and keep total sugar as low as I can.

What are your total calories for the day?

runawaybishop

CPTM wrote: »

I'm more than hitting the 200 grams of protein I've estimated for myself (12.5 stone and building to 13 stone).

You dont need anywhere near that amount of protein, 120g would be about all you need. 140 would be the absolute max, assuming you won the genetic lottery.

That protein milk is a gimmick, its just a ton of excess calories and very little protein.

TallGlass

The difference in sugars between fruits and bars of chocolate is that fruits are sucrose and are unrefined and natural, while as the chocolate bar whole be processed and refined, which would cause a blood sugar spike quite rapidly.

The sucrose would do the same but the spike wouldn't be nearly as drastic, not to mention it wouldn't have any of the nutriments as a piece of fruit.

All that milk, the sugar that is referred to is lactose, what they mean by carbs of which sugars, these would be sugars ready to go so to speak and can enter the blood straight away, rather than the carb itself having to enter the process of becoming glucose first in the liver.

Your working out, so it should benefit you on your training days, on days your not training I would look at your sugar intake as excess sugar is usually converted to fat.

Which leads me onto my next issue, the fat content of all that milk I would imagine is quite high unless it's 'fat free' so just watch out for that as you'll increase your body fat % unknowingly.

Keep to your macro going over this is just placing excess stress on your liver to break down the protein. Also watch your water hydration.

I'd also leave off the nuts.

CPTM

I'm a hard-gainer, takes a lot of work to put weight on me, both fat or muscle! I'm sure the metabolism will change someday. For now I'm hitting between 3000-3500 calories and gaining about 400 grams a week. It feels like muscle and the abs are (slowly) coming through, but I think the point about the fat and its effect on the liver wasn't something I was considering at all. I've checked the milk and luckily it's less than 1% fat. Still, the amount of it, the insane amount of peanut butter I put on the toast, and then the cashew nuts might be an overload. In terms of protein in meals, chicken sandwich (for example) would be two free range fillets baked and chopped. I do a big cook up on a Sunday. Then normally steak or eggs (or both!) for dinner with veg.

runawaybishop wrote:

You dont need anywhere near that amount of protein, 120g would be about all you need. 140 would be the absolute max, assuming you won the genetic lottery.

The general consensus when I reviewed online was 1 gram of protein per pound when building.. Do you reckon that's over kill?

TallGlass wrote:

Keep to your macro going over this is just placing excess stress on your liver to break down the protein. Also watch your water hydration.

Thanks TallGlass for your post too, that's exactly what I'd heard before on the fruit and couldn't remember it. Interesting about the lactose piece.

I think ultimately, I'm just turning to the milk because it tastes good, isn't dry like the chicken, and is an easy option.. I'm going to cut down to less than two litres a day, and maybe replace the chicken with turkey. Anyone have an alternative 3pm snack to the cashew nuts?

marialouise

There's nothing wrong with the cashew nuts by themselves, just within your overall intake for the day you might want to consider your total fat.

I think you could aim for 150-200g protein I don't think there's much wrong with it, and then 70g fat would be looooads, and the rest should come from carbs (think oats, rice, sweet potato etc and not sweets as you said yourself). So you might see these in MyFitnessPal and think "woah I've been going way over X or Y" and you might like to swap out the cashews for rice cakes or something, but without seeing your total values it's hard to suggest anyway.

_Brian

marialouise wrote: »

And without the milk what's your protein like? You're not getting much at breakfast, only getting some in your chicken at lunch, and meat at dinner and the rest is from milk or supplements. There's nothing wrong with that exactly, but there are loads of ways of getting 50g of protein for <5g sugar.
Also isn't milk like 3.5% fat? So you're getting 70-105g fat ever day from milk alone, plus nuts and nut butter, it's no wonder you're gaining weight!
As an aside, you don't need more than 200g protein so no need to try and get more than that.
Also I kind of think sugar is sugar, I don't eat a lot of fruit for that reason but I do eat some. I'd usually eat vegetables instead.
I dunno if my body knows the difference between sugar from
Tomato or sugar from haribo but I just try and keep total sugar as low as I can.

What are your total calories for the day?

The term "sugar is sugar" is fundamentally correct..
however..
how its delivered is very different...

Consider 20g of sugar from lucozade and compare that to 20g sugar from eating a selection of fruit.. (these numbers are unimportant)
The latter is tied up with fiber, vitamins and minerals, takes longer to be released and so isn't just dumped blindly into your body..

Highly processed sugars are just basically lumped straight into your blood stream and have the associated spikes in insulin etc that go with that process.. These are empty calories as well so you'll consume them, very quickly still feel hungry and go on to consume even more calories.

TallGlass

No your macro for your protein is correct, it's 1/1.5gram as you mentioned.

However not all protein sources are equal as the body uptake differs from source. Eggs have an absorption rate in the 90% and are packed full of nutrients and are high in calories. Dairy is still fairly high at about 75/80%.

There no such thing as a hard gainer, that's been scientifically proven not to exist.

You just need to be in calorie surplus to be in a gain, I would just watch for things like %fat in the diet now as you'll start to gain a layer of fat over the muscle, which I imagine in a month or two you'll want to lose for example around the abs so that you can see your abs as more defined.

Peanut butter/ Cashews are fine, just watch the grams your eating so you know the amount of fat your getting, as you do need fat.

If you wanted you could get an unflavoured whey protein and add it too the milk. That would bring up the protein while you could ease back on drinking a full litre of milk for example and use that extra capacity somewhere else in your diet like carbs pre workout.

Just mess around until you find whats right for you, drinking that much milk while not exactly harmful, it wouldn't be exactly sustainable longer term either.

CPTM

Ok quick research there -

2.5 liters of the Coolmere protein milk: 25g fat

Peanut butter: 25grams fat

Chicken fillets: 30 grams fat (in the two)

Cashew nuts: 22g fat

Dinner 25-50grams! On cheat day it's burgers and it's at least 50g...

Eeek. That's at least 150grams of fat on some days. Mostly "good" fats I think but still :-(

TallGlass

_Brian wrote: »

The term "sugar is sugar" is fundamentally correct..
however..
how its delivered is very different...

Consider 20g of sugar from lucozade and compare that to 20g sugar from eating a selection of fruit.. (these numbers are unimportant)
The latter is tied up with fiber, vitamins and minerals, takes longer to be released and so isn't just dumped blindly into your body..

Highly processed sugars are just basically lumped straight into your blood stream and have the associated spikes in insulin etc that go with that process.. These are empty calories as well so you'll consume them, very quickly still feel hungry and go on to consume even more calories.

It depends on the fruit, most fruits are simple sugars the same as the ones in the bottle of Lucozade, that are one sugar module and don't need any processing by the body and can be released into the bloody stream as glucose. Now the simple sugars in fruits will never reach the same amount as that you'll find in a can or a something like a juice, so the fruits are a safe bet.

The sugar in porridge isn't, it's complex meaning it's sugar structure is bonded together and has to be broken down into it's simple components then it's release as glucose into the blood stream, this takes time and give a fuller feeling over time, it keeps your bloody sugar constant rather than spiking it. This is what is known as a complex carb, the other one is a simple carb.

The GI index is helpful if you want to know which foods will cause a quick spike or a more lasting release.

TallGlass

CPTM wrote: »

Chicken fillets: 30 grams fat (in the two)

Is the skin still on the Chicken? That's quite high for chicken fillets.

CPTM

TallGlass wrote:

You just need to be in calorie surplus to be in a gain, I would just watch for things like %fat in the diet now as you'll start to gain a layer of fat over the muscle, which I imagine in a month or two you'll want to lose for example around the abs so that you can see your abs as more defined.

Yes in 6 weeks I'll be cutting for the first time. I've never bulked and cut before so I might miss the mark. I think I'll need to get a bit more scientific with the food intake to improve my chances..

TallGlass wrote:

However not all protein sources are equal as the body uptake differs from source. Eggs have an absorption rate in the 90% and are packed full of nutrients and are high in calories. Dairy is still fairly high at about 75/80%.

Any thoughts on egg whites? I've seen that it was a common source of good protein without the fat. I'm not sure it's sold in Ireland though.. I haven't seen it anywhere. I don't like doing it with eggs from the shop because it feels like a waste throwing out the yolk.. Though, thinking about it now, they're doing that at packaging stage anyways!

TallGlass

CPTM wrote: »

Any thoughts on egg whites? I've seen that it was a common source of good protein without the fat. I'm not sure it's sold in Ireland though.. I haven't seen it anywhere. I don't like doing it with eggs from the shop because it feels like a waste throwing out the yolk.. Though, thinking about it now, they're doing that at packaging stage anyways!

Well to be honest, if it's the egg white powder stuff. I have a bag down stairs I have yet to use. I'm out of the gym at the moment, but going back soon and just putting a plan together, at the moment and reading over books and tweeking my own diet, in the last 3/4 months I dropped 6kg. Anyway, rabbling on there back to the egg white powder.

Yes, but it's slow releasing protein, so you should use it a filler between meals where you won't be going gym. Whey is fast release so use this before gym and after for a good uptake.

Taste wise, I have heard it isn't the best on it's own so it's maybe best to mix it with some milk or something along them lines.

Also with the protein, keep an eye on your B vits. I'm just reading over this at the moment, so not entirely sure why, but worth mentioning, I would mention calcium but you've got that covered!

Alf Veedersane

I tried making scrambled eggs a few times with just egg whites. You need to add something for it to be palatable. Ideally something to impart some flavour to the egg whites.

TallGlass

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I tried making scrambled eggs a few times with just egg whites. You need to add something for it to be palatable. Ideally something to impart some flavour to the egg whites.

Same, I burnt the arse out of a pan also with Egg Whites, plus the yoke has all the nutrients and vitamins in it.

Alf Veedersane

TallGlass wrote: »

plus the yoke has all the nutrients and vitamins in it.

And all of the flavour.

I do like a proper egg bulked out with egg white for scrambling though.

marialouise

What kind of chicken fillets are you eating that you're getting 30g of fat on them?! Normally they're about 30g protein and like 1g of fat or something! You should be using plain, skinless chicken breast if you're trying to get the leanest part.

Also O'Egg do liquid egg whites. Like some other posters I have some at home for a while now which I have yet to use. Like I said I have very little trouble hitting my 150g protein, fat isn't hard to hit either and then I just fill out the rest with carbs.

Thanks to everyone who offered input on the sugar=sugar by the way!

CPTM

TallGlass wrote:

Is the skin still on the Chicken? That's quite high for chicken fillets.

marialouise wrote:

What kind of chicken fillets are you eating that you're getting 30g of fat on them?! Normally they're about 30g protein and like 1g of fat or something! You should be using plain, skinless chicken breast if you're trying to get the leanest part.

Sorry sorry, my bad. It's just the Lidl bally manor chicken fillets so <10grams of fat.

CPTM

marialouise wrote:

Also O'Egg do liquid egg whites. Like some other posters I have some at home for a while now which I have yet to use. Like I said I have very little trouble hitting my 150g protein, fat isn't hard to hit either and then I just fill out the rest with carbs.

I'm gonna give this a go! I see online that they're sold in tesco and bulkpowders.ie.. How do you normally take it? Just drink it down or do you mix it with anything?!

Alf Veedersane

CPTM wrote: »

I'm gonna give this a go! I see online that they're sold in tesco and bulkpowders.ie.. How do you normally take it? Just drink it down or do you mix it with anything?!

I got egg whites on Bulkpowders. I love scrambled eggs so I'd have an egg plus ~150g egg white.

marialouise

Sounds a bit better. Just checked MyFitnessPal there, my 110g of chicken today gave me 25g protein and 1.7g fat. 0g carbs. Then that makes my protein part of the meal so I can add carbs and fat as I want to make a balanced meal.
The problem with the milk is it's just not particularly balanced, and although it's very nutritious and delicious, we should all include as much variety in our diets as possible and I don't think getting the majority of your protein from the same milk is the best approach.

Like your calories are so high you can pretty much eat whatever the heck you want but you should understand what foods are high in which nutrients so you can make those choices. Understand which foods are high/low in carbs/fat/protein so that you can adjust when you need. If you're hitting your protein but having trouble hitting your fats, swap the chicken for salmon for example.

CPTM

Alf Veedersane wrote:

I got egg whites on Bulkpowders. I love scrambled eggs so I'd have an egg plus ~150g egg white.

I'm a fan myself, but I haven't tried with 90% egg whites though. I think I did see Ronnie Coleman cooking then up to get his "fix" as he calls it.

marialouise wrote:

Sounds a bit better. Just checked MyFitnessPal there, my 110g of chicken today gave me 25g protein and 1.7g fat. 0g carbs. Then that makes my protein part of the meal so I can add carbs and fat as I want to make a balanced meal. The problem with the milk is it's just not particularly balanced, and although it's very nutritious and delicious, we should all include as much variety in our diets as possible and I don't think getting the majority of your protein from the same milk is the best approach.

You're right with the balance, and I think the other bit I find hard sometimes is getting my greens in on a daily basis. Best tip I was given was to get spinach and keep it in the freezer. Then I just take it out and add it to everything whenever I can.. scrambled eggs, pasta dishes, curries.. It's a habit though, it's like I finish eating everything and suddenly realise I forgot to add it again!

I'm looking forward to breaking the 13 stone mark, maybe going a little over and then trying this cutting phase. I've a lot of reading up to do on it though.

marialouise

I haven't used egg whites yet, if I did it would probably be for meringues or a chocolate mousse haha!

Soo I eat 2 eggs for breakfast every single morning, with a load of veg (spinach, tomato, onion, mushrooms). I prepare them differently each day and thought that when making omelettes I could bulk it out with egg whites. On the bottle here it says they use them for "skinny omelettes", and I think they're also nice in things like protein pancakes etc.

I haven't used them at all because what will happen is they'll bring my protein up really high (and nothing else) and then I'll have less protein available to me later in the day and I am not willing to sacrifice a chicken fillet at dinner just to have a fluffier omelette in the morning, so I dunno if I'll ever use them. I unfortunately have mastered the art of high-protein-low-carb so it's actually really hard for me not to go over on protein and I'm usually under on carbs (so can be found stuffing my face with rice cakes and raisins before bed most nights), and I need the fat from the eggs in my breakfast as I also aim for about 65g fat per day, so whole eggs suit me better usually.

If you do need 3500kcal, of course you're going to need some calorie dense foods like nut butters, but I just wanted you to understand that some foods offer more 'bang for your buck' in terms of certain nutrients, and everything that milk has can be gotten in other foods, with a nutritional profile which might fit your goals differently.

TallGlass

The BP Egg Whites Liquid that is, it is pasteurised so you could knock it back if your into that type of thing from the bottle as is.

It's use within 3 days so I would order in 500ml bottles as the 1000ml is quite a large bottle.

Alf Veedersane

TallGlass wrote: »

The BP Egg Whites Liquid that is, it is pasteurised so you could knock it back if your into that type of thing from the bottle as is.

It's use within 3 days so I would order in 500ml bottles as the 1000ml is quite a large bottle.

I have been fairly loose with the 3 days. Usually took 5 days to get through.

Knocking it back you have less bioavailable protein so better off cooking it.

TallGlass

marialouise wrote: »

I haven't used them at all because what will happen is they'll bring my protein up really high (and nothing else) and then I'll have less protein available to me later in the day and I am not willing to sacrifice a chicken fillet at dinner just to have a fluffier omelette in the morning, so I dunno if I'll ever use them. I unfortunately have mastered the art of high-protein-low-carb so it's actually really hard for me not to go over on protein and I'm usually under on carbs (so can be found stuffing my face with rice cakes and raisins before bed most nights), and I need the fat from the eggs in my breakfast as I also aim for about 65g fat per day, so whole eggs suit me better usually.

Just out of interest is there a reason you won't go over on protein? Unlike carbs or fats, protein isn't stored by the body. So I wouldn't see any issue going over on it. Unless its because of the calories that come naturally with the protein.

An Ri rua

Any is the answer.

Milk is for baby mammals. Ask a vet and they'll tell you the same.
Try spirulina and other ways of getting your protein. Sounds like you're not assimilating all of the protein you're consuming anyway. You need far less than you think.

gctest50

You can use that to your advantage - stop dairy altogether and get your calcium etc from elsewhere (broccoli etc etc)

Cos if the variety, you *should* get loads of other necessary stuff too.

marialouise

TallGlass wrote: »

Just out of interest is there a reason you won't go over on protein? Unlike carbs or fats, protein isn't stored by the body. So I wouldn't see any issue going over on it. Unless its because of the calories that come naturally with the protein.

I do go over protein, every single day!
I'm 70kg and only training 3 days a week, yesterday I got 185g and Friday I got 213g!! Most other days were around 140g which is fine but there's just no need for me to be hitting that high.
As someone with a preference for lower carbs, I eat regular meals and have a decent source of protein with each of them (eggs + cottage cheese at breakfast, early lunch with chicken, midday snack/meal with salmon, dinner with beef for example, evening snack of yoghurt) I never ever fall short on protein and have yet to find a way to IIFYM-my egg whites, that's all.
Also a creature of habit, I should try using it in an omelette but then I'll just have to go adding in the fat somewhere else, I have no issue with whole eggs as I need about 70g fat and also whole eggs are less expensive. A multitude of reasons why I haven't opened the egg whites yet..

TallGlass

An Ri rua wrote: »

Ask a vet and they'll tell you the same.

He might get a few funky looks if he was to ask a vet about his milk intake.

Mellor

TallGlass wrote: »

All that milk, the sugar that is referred to is lactose, what they mean by carbs of which sugars, these would be sugars ready to go so to speak and can enter the blood straight away, rather than the carb itself having to enter the process of becoming glucose first in the liver.

Carbs are broken down (digested) in the stomach and intestines, not the liver.
You are possibly thinking about sucrose which gets broken down in the liver.

Your working out, so it should benefit you on your training days, on days your not training I would look at your sugar intake as excess sugar is usually converted to fat.

The body can convert sugar to fat. But it's unlikely to happen.
Much easier to use the readily available fat for fat.

Which leads me onto my next issue, the fat content of all that milk I would imagine is quite high unless it's 'fat free' so just watch out for that as you'll increase your body fat % unknowingly.

Dietary fat doesn't automatically make you fat.

Regardless, he is trying to put on weight. Going for fat free variations will mean he has to each more.

Keep to your macro going over this is just placing excess stress on your liver to break down the protein. Also watch your water hydration.

He is drinking 3 litres of milk a day. His hydration/water intake should be fine.

runawaybishop

CPTM wrote: »

The general consensus when I reviewed online was 1 gram of protein per pound when building.. Do you reckon that's over kill?

Yeah its massive overkill. The only people who benefit from that much are athletes on anabolic steroids. 1g per lb is recommended because it is a nice round number but there is no observed benefit going over .64g per lb - so for you that would be around 112 grams. Even studies with a double deviation from the mean (.ie 2 extreme cases with 2 margins for error) recommend you max out at .82 - i.e around 140 grams. All you are doing is making your poops more expensive and extra hard work

Article with good references here - http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Mellor

runawaybishop wrote: »

1g per lb is recommended because it is a nice round number but there is no observed benefit going over .64g per lb - so for you that would be around 112 grams.

The counter point to that is, if he drops his protein intake to .64, he'll have to recoup that lost energy.
Not being a benefit, doesn't mean it's a harm. Personally I prefer to eat protein over carbs/fats

runawaybishop

Mellor wrote: »

The counter point to that is, if he drops his protein intake to .64, he'll have to recoup that lost energy.
Not being a benefit, doesn't mean it's a harm. Personally I prefer to eat protein over carbs/fats

I'm just pointing out that the protein goals people set are often far higher than is required. Conversely the recommended dose of creatine is far less than is required.

Protein is often more expensive than carbs/fat so there is that as well.

looksee

CPTM wrote: »

Any thoughts on egg whites? I've seen that it was a common source of good protein without the fat. I'm not sure it's sold in Ireland though.. I haven't seen it anywhere. I don't like doing it with eggs from the shop because it feels like a waste throwing out the yolk.. Though, thinking about it now, they're doing that at packaging stage anyways!

Oh no! More likely that the whites are 'left over' product from something that only requires yolks. No factory is going to be dumping yolks to sell egg white.

Mellor

runawaybishop wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that the protein goals people set are often far higher than is required. Conversely the recommended dose of creatine is far less than is required.

Protein is often more expensive than carbs/fat so there is that as well.

Sure it's more expensive. But if I decided to have steak for breakfast instead of CocoPops. Cost isn't a factor.

runawaybishop

Mellor wrote: »

Sure it's more expensive. But if I decided to have steak for breakfast instead of CocoPops. Cost isn't a factor.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The OP thought he required 200g of protein, he doesn't.

Mellor

runawaybishop wrote: »

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The OP thought he required 200g of protein, he doesn't.

What part don't you understand?

He may not require 200g to build muscle, but if he cuts down to 120g, he'll wipe out his energy surplus - therefore build no muscle.
His protein, carb and fat requirements are a lot less than his energy requirements. So there's lots of leeway in the make up of the difference. Making it up in carbs might be "cheapest". But some people rather protein, and are happy to pay that small premium for meat over ceareal (for example)

runawaybishop

Mellor wrote: »

What part don't you understand?

He may not require 200g to build muscle, but if he cuts down to 120g, he'll wipe out his energy surplus - therefore build no muscle.
His protein, carb and fat requirements are a lot less than his energy requirements. So there's lots of leeway in the make up of the difference. Making it up in carbs might be "cheapest". But some people rather protein, and are happy to pay that small premium for meat over ceareal (for example)

If he cuts down to 120g he will still need to make up his calorie requirements obviously. He does not require 200g of protein, its not complicated.

TallGlass

Mellor wrote: »

Carbs are broken down (digested) in the stomach and intestines, not the liver.
You are possibly thinking about sucrose which gets broken down in the liver.

Well if you want to get technical it actually starts in your mouth. I for some reason mentioned this over as carbs. But yes it is processed by the small intestine.

The body can convert sugar to fat. But it's unlikely to happen.
Much easier to use the readily available fat for fat.

It is very much likely to happen! Most carbs are converted to glucose for use straight away or stored as glucose or glycogen in the liver/muscle, the rest that is not used is stored a fat.

Dietary fat doesn't automatically make you fat.

Haven't read anything to make me think otherwise.

Regardless, he is trying to put on weight. Going for fat free variations will mean he has to each more.

Yes he is trying to put on weight, I would imagine more so muscle weight more than anything else. Eating a lot of high fat products will make him gain weight, but he wants a good % body fat so that things like abs etc.. are more defined.

TallGlass

runawaybishop wrote: »

If he cuts down to 120g he will still need to make up his calorie requirements obviously. He does not require 200g of protein, its not complicated.

Why do you think he does not? 200g seems fairly reasonable to me while trying to gain muscle on a protein diet.

CPTM

runawaybishop wrote:

I'm just pointing out that the protein goals people set are often far higher than is required. Conversely the recommended dose of creatine is far less than is required.

What is everyone's take on creatine amount? I'm just about to start a cycle.. I've found in the past that the stuff really works for me when I stick to the packet recommendations. But water intake needs to be so so high. I do gain a bit of water weight, but my bench and squat ability sky rocket. I think it's better to be on surplus of protein because the amount the body needs to repair after a workout feels like so much more. Also, zero alcohol. Like zero. Normally when I'm off creatine cycle I can have a glass of wine or beer with dinner if I'm out somewhere, with creatine just one pint leaves me destroyed the next day and with sharp pains in my kidneys. With no alcohol and plenty of water I've never had any issues.

I've always stuck to the 1gram protein per pound of body weight. It does show me results.. Not worth the risk of experimenting with less. My guess is that protein intake/digestion has a lot of different variables, everyone needs to learn how far their own body can go.

CPTM

looksee wrote:

Oh no! More likely that the whites are 'left over' product from something that only requires yolks. No factory is going to be dumping yolks to sell egg white.

Good point!

Mellor

runawaybishop wrote: »

If he cuts down to 120g he will still need to make up his calorie requirements obviously. He does not require 200g of protein, its not complicated.

I never said he needed 200g.
I'm pointing out if somebody is eating 3500, it's probably more enjoyable to scale up all macros. Rather than only 120g of protein and 3000cals worth of carbs and fat.
But, if somebody loves carbs, sure why not.

Mellor

TallGlass wrote: »

Well if you want to get technical it actually starts in your mouth. I for some reason mentioned this over as carbs. But yes it is processed by the small intestine.

Yup, chewing and salvia.
I was just pointing out that it can't get to the liver without being absorbed into bloodstream first.

It is very much likely to happen! Most carbs are converted to glucose for use straight away or stored as glucose or glycogen in the liver/muscle, the rest that is not used is stored a fat.

Muscle and liver glycogen capacity is quite high. There's unlikely to be "the rest not used", as the body will bias carb oxidation.
The pathway exists when it's needed. But your unlikely to get there unless you are eating a ridiculous amount.

Any reasonably normal intake of excess calories won't trigger it.

Haven't read anything to make me think otherwise.

Yes he is trying to put on weight, I would imagine more so muscle weight more than anything else. Eating a lot of high fat products will make him gain weight, but he wants a good % body fat so that things like abs etc.. are more defined.

Eating fat doesn't automatically put on body fat. Your body needs fat to function.
If his goal is higher calories, cutting out fat is making it harder to achieve.