Proposal to Restructure the All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship

slegs

Bonniedog wrote: »

Straight knock out then is the fairest. I think the point was that Limerick - or Dublin or Wexford - are capable of taking down a big beast, and all have done so in past 5/6 years. However, giving the big beast a second chance is unfair surely?

Championship should be straight knock out. Best team will win anyway. Cats or Tipp in hurling or Dublin and Kerry in football should not be given another chance if they are taken out.

No league format is fairest as it will always produce the best team that year. Why do you say best team will win anyway when any team could be caught cold on one day. They could still be the best team that year.

If Limerick want to be the best they will have to improve as said before. It amazes me that people think the format should somehow enable weaker teams to go further by allowing them to catch someone on an off day.

Mehapoy

slegs wrote: »

Bonniedog wrote: »

Straight knock out then is the fairest. I think the point was that Limerick - or Dublin or Wexford - are capable of taking down a big beast, and all have done so in past 5/6 years. However, giving the big beast a second chance is unfair surely?

Championship should be straight knock out. Best team will win anyway. Cats or Tipp in hurling or Dublin and Kerry in football should not be given another chance if they are taken out.

No league format is fairest as it will always produce the best team that year. Why do you say best team will win anyway when any team could be caught cold on one day. They could still be the best team that year.

If Limerick want to be the best they will have to improve as said before. It amazes me that people think the format should somehow enable weaker teams to go further by allowing them to catch someone on an off day.

If a team can't get into the top 3 in a 5 team group they're not getting far whatever the format,

Powerhouse

letowski wrote: »

Did anybody read the Sunday Times yesterday? Is this a true story?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/irish-sport/round-robin-groups-point-the-way-forward-0z7vr85rk

Balls.ie condenesed the story

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/new-hurling-championship-format-364496

The main points:

- The Munster and Leinster Championships will be played on a group basis.
- Each Championship will feature five teams.
- Teams will play four games each, two home and two away.
- The top two teams in each group will contest the provincial finals.
- The teams which finish third in the groups will progress to an All-Ireland quarter-final along with the losing provincial finalists.
- Provincial winners will automatically progress to the All-Ireland semi-finals.
- The bottom two teams in each group will be eliminated from the All-Ireland Hurling Championship.

The proposal is expected to be presented to Central Council in mid-June and then to a Special Congress later in the year.

First off I accept that this is a thorny issue.

But I like the idea of the group stage system, I think its a step in the right direction for the hurling. It will increase revenue, have a more fixed hurling calendar that will benefit clubs, while still have the provincial systems in place. Players play more games also.

That said the idea put forward above has a few holes. Just having 5 teams in each province is unfair in not letting the developing counties take part in the championship. The biggest issue from a Munster perspective is one of WAT, CLA, LIM, COR and TIP, have to be relegated to whatever second tier structure is in place. That certainly won't go down well.

Overall though I think this style of format is the most best and popular sports competition format. One can look at all the biggest competitions in sport, Champions League, Football and Rugby World Cups, NFL, NBA, etc. They are all run in a group stage then knockout format. The hurling provinical championships are dead now, my own county will play Limerick in a month and probably only 15k will show up.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Sometimes the mind really boggles at how easily people can contradict themselves as you have done. You say that "the hurling provinicial championships are dead now" but "like the idea of the group stage system" which means that the "dead provincial system" is flogged even more. What's that about?

If you think 15k is not a great crowd for a match between your county and Limerick wait until they are meeting in a dead rubber at the end of the "group stage system". It'll make 15k look like the glory days.

You also think that it's a good idea because the GAA will "have a more fixed hurling calendar that will benefit clubs". The number of games in the Munster championship is going to more than double and you think this will benefit clubs? Are you taking the p1ss? County team managers will have even more of an excuse to monopolise players now because they'll have games nearly every week from February to July and that's before the real championship starts. This is going to bury the clubs.

As for your comment "overall though I think this style of format is the most best and popular sports competition format. One can look at all the biggest competitions in sport, Champions League, Football and Rugby World Cups, NFL, NBA, etc. They are all run in a group stage then knockout format."

What's the deal with citing the "NBA" (wtf?) and getting in the inevitable Champions League reference? The National Hurling League has been run for years under the group stage and then knockout format. It is not exactly revolutionary.

The Lost Sheep

Powerhouse wrote: »

Sometimes the mind really boggles at how easily people can contradict themselves as you have done. You say that "the hurling provinicial championships are dead now" but "like the idea of the group stage system" which means that the "dead provincial system" is flogged even more. What's that about?

If you think 15k is not a great crowd for a match between your county and Limerick wait until they are meeting in a dead rubber at the end of the "group stage system". It'll make 15k look like the glory days.

You also think that it's a good idea because the GAA will "have a more fixed hurling calendar that will benefit clubs". The number of games in the Munster championship is going to more than double and you think this will benefit clubs? Are you taking the p1ss? County team managers will have even more of an excuse to monopolise players now because they'll have games nearly every week from February to July and that's before the real championship starts. This is going to bury the clubs.

As for your comment "overall though I think this style of format is the most best and popular sports competition format. One can look at all the biggest competitions in sport, Champions League, Football and Rugby World Cups, NFL, NBA, etc. They are all run in a group stage then knockout format."

What's the deal with citing the "NBA" (wtf?) and getting in the inevitable Champions League reference? The National Hurling League has been run for years under the group stage and then knockout format. It is not exactly revolutionary.

The provincial system isnt dead and doesnt need to be either. This proposal shouldnt lead to many if any dead rubber games if it means top 3 will still go through. And if it happens too much you simply adapt the competition to give 4th in the group another shot.
If there is more games. No chances of replays and there is a very fixed schedule for counties to work around then this should help clubs fix their games and actually play them especially as both games in a round robin will be played same weekend. 2 groups of 5 and then provincial final means 6 weekends of games. Considering how they currently stagger games in Munster hurling championship its played over 4 weekends if there isnt a replay and Leinster is played over 6.

Bonniedog

slegs wrote: »

No league format is fairest as it will always produce the best team that year. Why do you say best team will win anyway when any team could be caught cold on one day. They could still be the best team that year.

If Limerick want to be the best they will have to improve as said before. It amazes me that people think the format should somehow enable weaker teams to go further by allowing them to catch someone on an off day.

Championship should be best on the day. if it is straight knockout then better teams will be well prepared. If then the Cats or Dubs or Kerry or Tipp are beaten then why give them another shot?

Coillte_Bhoy

Bonniedog wrote: »

Best team will win anyway

Bonniedog wrote: »

Championship should be best on the day.

You're contradicting yourself. Bets on the day might not be best team of the cship. When the FA Cup was a major competition taken seriously by the top teams the best team did not always win

Bonniedog

Best team is one that wins, surely! If Usain Bolt loses a race it is not re-run!

PTH2009

Official structure is out that will go to congress

Hope it goes through but it will take a while to get used to the championship starting so early

How on earth will Cusack Park and Walsh Park be able too host big championship games ??

Imo Only disadvantage I see is that there will be very few Munster teams vs Leisnter teams games but no harm in trying this system. Be good too have at least 4 championship days out next summer

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

KevIRL

With Offaly in the current mess they are in it effectively means 3 from 4 into the all Ireland series​ for Leinster while the Munster lads go at it any of the 5 there could be gone.

PTH2009

KevIRL wrote: »

With Offaly in the current mess they are in it effectively means 3 from 4 into the all Ireland series​ for Leinster while the Munster lads go at it any of the 5 there could be gone.

yeah its a bit unfair

if this goes ahead next years league could be a bit of a shambles as teams wont be going full tilt for it with so many championship games coming up

its weird thinking next year that there will be teams out of the championship by mid may. Did the GAA forget the soccer world cup is on next year too

Davys Fits

KevIRL wrote: »

With Offaly in the current mess they are in it effectively means 3 from 4 into the all Ireland series​ for Leinster while the Munster lads go at it any of the 5 there could be gone.

Sure its not perfect. But the Munster teams can be sure that they will be in the Liam Mc the following year bar a miracle in Kerry. Leinster has a drop every year. One concern could be that the top teams may meet 3 times in a short space of time. Not a bad plan though and it means 15 teams are in with a chance to win and all have 4 games minimum.

PTH2009

The championships as we know them are about to change.

The days of knockout games are starting too end as were going down the route of soccer/rugby in which were adapting group stages, multiple games etc

I wonder will Waterford play there home games in Thurles or Cork and Clare play there's in Limerick as demand could outweigh stadium capacity ???

mickmackmcgoo

The proposed dates for provincial championships might not go down well with the counties. First 3 games are 3 weeks in a row then a week off then another game .

Copper_pipe

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

The proposed dates for provincial championships might not go down well with the counties. First 3 games are 3 weeks in a row then a week off then another game .

Be costly enough if you go to all the games

mickmackmcgoo

Copper_pipe wrote:

Be costly enough if you go to all the games

For sure , not too mention the possibility of no club fixtures in a lot of counties until June and July

Copper_pipe

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

For sure , not too mention the possibility of no club fixtures in a lot of counties until June and July

As a limerick man, it could mean making a trip to thurles and cork and one home game in limerick in the space of 3 weeks.

Be interesting to see how many games would be shown on TV each week also.

mickmackmcgoo

Copper_pipe wrote:

Be interesting to see how many games would be shown on TV each week also.

You would probably get one on tv on a Sunday and sky on a Saturday night. Hurling definitely needs a new structure , will be interesting to see if this gets approved

munchkin_utd

Copper_pipe wrote: »

As a limerick man, it could mean making a trip to thurles and cork and one home game in limerick in the space of 3 weeks.

Be interesting to see how many games would be shown on TV each week also.

Do you follow your county in the league ?
It doesnt sound all that different than the commitment that the core group of county supporters show during the spring, albeit less travelling as you only have teams in your Provence.

As for TV, you'd have probably no more games on telly than before, but just proper decent hurling matches rather than a mickey mouse football qualifier on a Saturday evening.

The interesting aspect would be how the highlights get dealt with, as with so many more good games on those weekends it'd be a pity to only have a 5 minute piece on the Sunday game for what could have been a ding dong battle. Maybe there'd be a need for a Saturday and/ or Monday extended highlights programme to cope with the extra games ?

Hammer Archer

So basically the GAA made a big song and dance about not promoting both Christy Ring finalists last year only to promote both finalists the following year :rolleyes:
Would have been more advantageous to Meath to lose last year's Christy Ring final and make this year's final instead.

mountgomery burns

Don't think it will get passed but at least it opens discussion.

PTH2009

my idea

If only we could run the provincial championships sepretly and use the 2018-20 structure but have an open draw

Group A
1 Munster Team
2 Leinster Team
3 Munster Team
4 Leinster Team
5 Munster or Leinster Team

Group B
1 Munster Team
2 Leinster Team
3 Munster Team
4 Leinster Team
5 Munster or Leinster team

Top 2 in each group into semi finals and 2nd vs 3rd in each group QFs. 5th vs 5th in each group loser has to enter the qualifers group the next year

or even tie in standalone provincial championships (5x teams in Munster and Leinster)

Group A
1 Munster Champions
2 Leinster Runners up
3 Beaten Munster Semi Finalist
4 Beaten Leinster Semi Finalist
5 Beaten Leinster QFs

Group B
1 Leinster Champions
2 Munster Runners up
3 Beaten Munster Semi Finalist
4 Beaten Leinster Semi Finalist
5 Beaten Munster QFs

Top 2 in each group into semi finals and 2nd vs 3rd in each group QFs. 5th vs 5th in each group loser has to enter the qualifers group the next year

Hammer Archer

When will this be voted on? Hopefully it's defeated.

Hammer Archer

Another baffling proposal is putting Sligo in next year's Nicky Rackard Cup and only promoting the winner of this weekend's Lory Meagher final between Leitrim and Warwickshire. Sligo only came third in the Lory Meagher while Warwickshire and Leitrim came first and second respectively.

They seem to have treated the lower tier competitions as an afterthought yet again.

Martin Ennis, the Meath manager, isn't happy according to this article.

PTH2009

GPA proposals for the 2018-20 structure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gpa-suggest-six-amendments-to-gaas-hurling-championship-proposals-2018-2020-797944.html

Liam Mccarthy Cup
2 groups of 5
Munster (Cork, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Tipp :eek::eek:)
Leinster (Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford)

Prov qualifer group- Laois, Westmeath, Kerry, Carlow, Meath and Antrim

All teams play each other once (home or away) not sure how there going to divide it up

Top 2 in each group will contest the Provincial final with the winner qualifying for the All Ireland semi finals. Teams who finish 4th and 5th in the groups are eliminated

2nd Round
3rd in Munster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner
3rd in Leinster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner

Quarter Finals
Leinster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner
Munster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner

Semi finals
Leinster Champion vs QF Winner
Munster Champion vs QF Winner

I do like the system but think its a bit unfair for the Munster teams as its very compeitive where in the Leinster group Offaly and possibly Dublin will be walkovers for Galway/Kilkenny and Wexford. Galway and Kilkenny are guaranteed a top 3 finish every year where 2 top quality munster teams will be gone early

danganabu

PTH2009 wrote: »

I do like the system but think its a bit unfair for the Munster teams as its very compeitive where in the Leinster group Offaly and possibly Dublin will be walkovers for Galway/Kilkenny and Wexford. Galway and Kilkenny are guaranteed a top 3 finish every year where 2 top quality munster teams will be gone early

But shur how is that any different to the current structure?

awec

What's the issue with the current format?

PTH2009

awec wrote: »

What's the issue with the current format?

Not getting enough games

Bonniedog

PTH2009 wrote: »

Not getting enough games

There's plenty of games. Leinster round robin is a bit of a farce to decide which team gets a hiding.

Fact is that there are never more than 4/5 teams with remotely realistic chance of winning AI, and it will never be any different. Having said that, this year seems competitive but it is basically next year's 1A with exception of Galway.

The group qualifiers a few years ago gave even bad teams 5/6 games, which often amounted to 5/6 absolute thrashings! What is point in that?

LeinsterDub

Nothing say clear and understandable structure like a 7 page pdf