Second dog???

volchitsa

Hi all,

So we have a 17 month old shepherd (various mixtures, but all herder-type!) very independent, who's terrific fun and really a pretty easy character, not anxious, always up for anything. The only real downside is that she's super super active, like, even people that have other dogs all remark on how hyper active she is and that they've never seen such an active (but funny) dog.

Her behaviour is ok, on the whole. She's just starting agility activities with my son, and she loves that, and seems to be good at it. So really the only issue is I'm afraid we're still not active enough for her.

Basically I'm wondering if we should get another dog for company for her, or whether we should concentrate on the one we've got.

Is having a second dog loads more work, or could it be a way of making life easier for all of us, including her?

Basically, is it a mad idea or not?

Thanks for any views.

volchitsa

I should perhaps say that we've a possibility of adopting a 2 year old English spaniel, because he's turned out not to be good for hunting, which is why I started the thread. We don't hunt obviously. He's a beautiful dog, but I don't really know much about his character yet.

R.D. aka MR.D

Are you exercising her enough physically and mentally?

I think if you were to get a second dog just for this purpose, you'd need to think long and hard about whether it would even work.

We had a collie and a pom. They played together a good bit but a collie being a collie, he needed tons and tons of mental and physical stimulation for the first 12 years!!! :pac:

How do you envision the other dog helping the situation? Which kind of dog would you get?

volchitsa

12 years???

OMG! I'm hoping she'll calm down after two!

A pom is a Pomeranian, right? Small dog? I was thinking two dogs of similar size and energy levels could play together, so that a walk in the morning and a good run in the evening would then be enough for her (currently at least twice a week on the beach, where we often meet dogs she knows and can play with, again, always medium-sized dogs)

She really doesn't have any behavioral issues or anything, I just want to make sure it stays that way.

As far as exercise goes, like I said she's out everyday, usually with a good bit of off leash running time, and her behaviour at home is fine, so I don't think she's missing anything exactly, but I feel like we're just not doing nearly as much as she's able for, and basically I wonder if a second dog would make that better or worse.

I just feel like time spent with other dogs lets her use her energy more than we ever can.

Although the agility classes wear her out, far more than playing on the beach does, she's only done a couple so far, but has been wrecked after them - which was great, I'd like her to be like that every evening!

Also I'm afraid that as she gets used to them, they won't tire her out in the same way, and she'll soon be looking for more!

R.D. aka MR.D

I think maybe somebody on here with good knowledge of spaniels might be able to help you in terms of how much exercise they need.

My granda had gun dogs and I believe they are quite a bit of work.

To be honest I don't know what the minimum amount of exercise you're supposed to give energetic breeds but I know that some people say that you can train them to relax a bit more. I know what you are describing would have my collie bored out of his mind but would have suited the pom down to the ground.

Where would they have the ability to play together? Do you have fields or a large back garden?

R.D. aka MR.D

The agility is probably working because it is giving her mental stimulation which is very important.

volchitsa

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I think maybe somebody on here with good knowledge of spaniels might be able to help you in terms of how much exercise they need.

My granda had gun dogs and I believe they are quite a bit of work.

To be honest I don't know what the minimum amount of exercise you're supposed to give energetic breeds but I know that some people say that you can train them to relax a bit more. I know what you are describing would have my collie bored out of his mind but would have suited the pom down to the ground.

Where would they have the ability to play together? Do you have fields or a large back garden?

Yes, we've a fairly big, fully enclosed garden, about a 1/4 acre.

I'm a bit surprised that two outings a day would have a collie bored out of his mind, I get that they're working dogs, but I see lots of people with collies as pets, that get out less than our dog, and they seem fine. I see them at the beach and in some cases they are living in apartments and are inside all day long until the owners get home, and they seem fine as long as they get their couple of outings a day.

volchitsa

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

The agility is probably working because it is giving her mental stimulation which is very important.

It's certainly noticeable that so far she's been wrecked after the agility in a way that I've never seen her otherwise. If that continues, then it's fine. What I'm a bit worried about is that she'll get used to that and start needing more stimulation.

R.D. aka MR.D

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes, we've a fairly big, fully enclosed garden, about a 1/4 acre.

I'm a bit surprised that two outings a day would have a collie bored out of his mind, I get that they're working dogs, but I see lots of people with collies as pets, that get out less than our dog, and they seem fine. I see them at the beach and in some cases they are living in apartments and are inside all day long until the owners get home, and they seem fine as long as they get their couple of outings a day.

I've never known a collie that would be happy with being left alone all day and then only having two walks. That's not to say they don't exist!

I just know from my personal experience of collies that they prefer to be challenged mentally, spend a good bit of time with their humans and require a substantial amount of exercise.

But we're getting off topic. I would say to you that personally I don't think getting another dog with the sole purpose of calming the one you have, especially another high energy breed like a spaniel, will give you the desired result of two calm dogs.

However, we seem to disagree on how much exercise/mental stimulation is required for responsible dog ownership so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Best of luck with your decision.

volchitsa

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I've never known a collie that would be happy with being left alone all day and then only having two walks. That's not to say they don't exist!

I just know from my personal experience of collies that they prefer to be challenged mentally, spend a good bit of time with their humans and require a substantial amount of exercise.

But we're getting off topic. I would say to you that personally I don't think getting another dog with the sole purpose of calming the one you have, especially another high energy breed like a spaniel, will give you the desired result of two calm dogs.

However, we seem to disagree on how much exercise/mental stimulation is required for responsible dog ownership so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Best of luck with your decision.

Our dog is not on her own all day, my o/h is semi retired, and I work from home two days a week so she's rarely left more than a few hours on her own, and that only occasionally. Most days she spends with us. We work in the garden a good bit at the moment, so she's out and about on the garden with us when we're doing that too.

As for other dogs, I can only go by what I observe myself and what the owners tell me. And TBH if only a few breeds of dogs can learn to stay at home during the day, there must be a vast majority of unhappy dogs around the place.

cocker5

OP if she is getting a decent amount of exercise daily and stimulation / interaction then personally I'd look at her food... what are you feeding her?

Lots of dog food can lead to hyperactivity

volchitsa

Originally she had Royal Canine puppy food (we used to get it with a small reduction through the the puppy classes she and her teenage owner go to) but she was getting greasy fur along her back.

Her first adult food was Eukanuba, which was great for coat but no difference in behaviour afaicr. Currently she has another Royal Canine kibble (my husband was delighted at the great reduction they were offering, and bought three big bags :mad: Club performance or performance club I'm not sure).

I'd like to go back to Eukanuba after that, but it was very expensive. And as I say I'm not certain of any effect on behaviour, but you're right it's worth paying more attention to.

But I do think it's basically her, for example the teachers in the puppy club are really happy with how she's progressed. One said only the other day that compared to how she was when she began, that they all found her just so much better now at concentrating on my son instead of constantly wanting to race off doing her own stuff. And implicitly that she had struck several of the educators as being unusually excited/excitable when she was young.

We never had a dog before, so I don't have much to compare her with, but people who know dogs all remark on her energy levels. It's not a problem, in a way, she doesn't cause any problems, I just want to be sure it stays that way!

(We got her from people who have a small farmholding, her dad is often chained up when not working, to stop him from roaming, and the poor thing has dug craters around him, clearly out of boredom. But he's a working dog, so that's on top of the work he does. Not sure if that's relevant or not, maybe any dog that spends time tied up will do that.)

Choc Chip

I find that mine needs something to do everyday (training/games/new places) or she gets bored and finds her own thing to do. She's very good in the house but a walk isn't enough for her (and she's 6 or 7).

Could you foster to see what yours is like living with a second dog? I've had 2 very different experiences. My little terrier LOVES having another dog to play with all day and it burns off a lot of his excess energy. My shepherd just doesn't care and wants to do things with me so adding another dog just gives me more work.

Choc Chip

Btw, do you mean a springer spaniel?
While they tend to be lovely, adorable and friendly, it's another working breed and they can be completely fizzing with energy...

volchitsa

Choc Chip wrote: »

Btw, do you mean a springer spaniel?
While they tend to be lovely, adorable and friendly, it's another working breed and they can be completely fizzing with energy...

Umm, I don't know, TBH :oops:
It's this kind :



A setter I think, is that right? The people that have him found him six months ago, not chipped or tattooed or anything, he's about two now, and they tried to identify him or his owner but have come up blank.

They hunt and have other dogs, but this dog won't hunt apparently. She says he just wants to spend time with them, with their little boy and so on. Which isn't what they want, they have a house dog already. But apparently he's really sweet, though of course not necessarily house trained etc the way ours is. He comes into their house when he's clean, but sleeps out in the kennel with the other dogs, so not 100% sure about house training.

Would it be madness to take him on? He's so gorgeous. We haven't met him yet because I don't want to go unless we're sure we want a second dog at all.

VonVix

volchitsa wrote: »

Umm, I don't know, TBH :oops:
It's this kind :

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/725330/416527.jpeg

A setter I think, is that right? The people that have him found him six months ago, not chipped or tattooed or anything, he's about two now, and they tried to identify him or his owner but have come up blank.

They hunt and have other dogs, but this dog won't hunt apparently. She says he just wants to spend time with them, with their little boy and so on. Which isn't what they want, they have a house dog already. But apparently he's really sweet, though of course not necessarily house trained etc the way ours is. He comes into their house when he's clean, but sleeps out in the kennel with the other dogs, so not 100% sure about house training.

Would it be madness to take him on? He's so gorgeous. We haven't met him yet because I don't want to go unless we're sure we want a second dog at all.

Looks like an English Setter, lovely dogs from the few I have met!

DBB

He's an English Setter... A beautiful breed that rarely suffer from behavioural or temperament issues.
OK... I think a 2nd dog is a good idea, as long as you want a 2nd dog for its own sake, not just as a tirer-outer for your present dog. Having 2 medium-large dogs is more complicated in terms if walking them (if they pull or are reactive), space in the car, space in the house, feeding bills, getting them minded etc... It's all easier when they're smaller!
Whilst this fella sounds fantastic, I'm a little concerned that you say he's more motivated to be with humans than their other dogs... This would suggest that he may not actually fulfil the role you want him to. Now, if your dog is a great player, he might switch on the Setter's playfulness, in which case, yay!
But what if he doesn't? What if the Setter starts to resent your dog's playfulness? Or if your dog starts to resent the Setter's clinginess to you?
You're on the right track looking for a similarly sized dog, but to my mind, you're going to need one that's as playful and up for it as your dog... That doesn't necessarily mean the dog will be a total live-wire... My pup would play all day with my adult dog, but she's not a buzzy live-wire either.
Can you go meet the Setter? Is there an option for you to take him for a few days to see how they get on?

volchitsa

DBB wrote: »

He's an English Setter... A beautiful breed that rarely suffer from behavioural or temperament issues.
OK... I think a 2nd dog is a good idea, as long as you want a 2nd dog for its own sake, not just as a tirer-outer for your present dog. Having 2 medium-large dogs is more complicated in terms if walking them (if they pull or are reactive), space in the car, space in the house, feeding bills, getting them minded etc... It's all easier when they're smaller!
Whilst this fella sounds fantastic, I'm a little concerned that you say he's more motivated to be with humans than their other dogs... This would suggest that he may not actually fulfil the role you want him to. Now, if your dog is a great player, he might switch on the Setter's playfulness, in which case, yay!
But what if he doesn't? What if the Setter starts to resent your dog's playfulness? Or if your dog starts to resent the Setter's clinginess to you?
You're on the right track looking for a similarly sized dog, but to my mind, you're going to need one that's as playful and up for it as your dog... That doesn't necessarily mean the dog will be a total live-wire... My pup would play all day with my adult dog, but she's not a buzzy live-wire either.
Can you go meet the Setter? Is there an option for you to take him for a few days to see how they get on?

That's it, an English setter I think it is (a Lemon Setter?).
Pretty sure both those options would be possible, and yes, those are exactly the sort of points (how they get on etc) that I've hoping people will be able to advise me on - not the answers of course, but what we need to ask ourselves!

I'd been thinking about a second dog very much as company for her, really, not as "I'd love two dogs", if that's what you mean. It's just that this other dog looked so sweet, and is looking for a home, that it's kind of pushing me towards that as well.

So yes, to be perfectly frank, I was thinking not exactly as a tirer-outer, I realize dogs need walks etc anyway, for mental stimulation and just to be with their people, but more in case we just can't provide enough interest for her.

For instance now she's sleeping in her crate here, which she does in the morning, and she's fine (the odd bored sigh is all), she'll have maybe another wee go around the garden but that's it, though she can come and go as much as she likes. If I'm in the garden though she'll be out there all the time with me.

In any case then in the afternoon/early evening, which is when she gets out for a good long walk/run on the beach she'll start to get wound up in expectation. Whether or not she's been in her crate all day or out in the garden with us, it's the same thing.

She actually has doggie-pals that she meets down at the beach, so she's not deprived of dog company, but it's not systematic either. You're right that she's very independent though and maybe another dog that mostly wanted to hang out with us wouldn't fit the bill for her, and might even lead to other problems, as you say.

I suppose the thing is we haven't had her long enough to know how complicated it can all be, we've not needed to get her minded so far, but of course travelling with two dogs is bound to be much harder than with one.

I think we need to see how the agility goes too. Maybe that's enough for her and she'll be perfectly happy with what she's used to as she gets older. But she's so mad about other dogs - OTOH I don't want to create a situation where her main relationship is with another dog rather than with us.

Decisions decisions!

Yeah, we maybe need to meet this dog, with Lola, see if they get on.

DBB

Lemon refers to the lovely chestnut flecking in the coat. English Setters usually come in Lemon and white, black and white, and tricolour.
He's a lemon and white English Setter, they're also called Llewellyn Setters (regardless of colour). A simply beautiful breed... Very much on my bucket list though OH has owned them before... They're a very trouble-free breed behaviour-wise, though prone to some health problems including epilepsy.
Definitely bring Lola to meet him. He may very well be more comfortable with one dog rather than in a gang. If you see any sign at all of him reciprocating her invitations to play, and if you like him, then as long as you're happy to go for it... Then go for it!

DBB

DBB wrote: »

Lemon refers to the lovely chestnut flecking in the coat. English Setters usually come in Lemon and white, black and white, and tricolour.
He's a lemon and white English Setter, they're also called Llewellyn Setters (regardless of colour). A simply beautiful breed... Very much on my bucket list though OH has owned them before... They're a very trouble-free breed behaviour-wise, though prone to some health problems including epilepsy.
Definitely bring Lola to meet him. He may very well be more comfortable with one dog rather than in a gang. If you see any sign at all of him reciprocating her invitations to play, and if you like him, then as long as you're happy to go for it... Then go for it!

When you confirmed it was an English setter I was thinking "damn I was sure it was a llewellyn!"
My mum had a llewellyn and she must have had quite the impact on her because she can't see one with now without fawning all over it. There was one in the pound here a couple of years ago and she couldn't drive anywhere near it or her steering wheel would seem to independently turn in that direction!

OP I really think you need to sort out some kind of fostering arrangement. Then you can be sure not only that your dog gets on with the setter but that another dog suits you as well. I find two dogs easier in a lot of ways but it's a lot of work all the same.

volchitsa

Does anyone have any more opinions on this?

I'm just trying to work out what the positive and negative sides are and how to identify which is more likely, eg if the dogs get on initially will that mean they're likely to get on long term or could problems arise later?

What and how much difference does having a second dog have in terms of both dogs' interaction with us, and need to interact with us? Ie, could it be as likely to make them jealous of each other (longer term, short term doesn't bother me) as to make them both happier overall?

I'm sort of wondering if getting a second dog is like having a second child, with all the need to find a new equilibrium, or if dogs just tend to be happier the bigger their "family"?

Probably my main question is how can I be sure they won't end up disliking each other or just not being friends, and how long to know this is unlikely to develop later.

(I guess that's what DBB meant about getting a second dog because you want one, and not "for" the first dog. In which case, what are the reasons for wanting another dog then? )

VonVix

I think it's one of those things... you won't really know unless you try. Dogs often don't agree on everything 100% of the time and that's fine, it's down to the owner to keep everyone happy and manage situations where it seems like one of them tends to kick off. But yeah, getting a second dog should first and foremost be something you want and feel like you would have no problems walking both and being able to afford both. When we got a second it felt not much different to having the first other than doubling the food/bills/mental and physical needs. Now I have a third and feel like a fourth simply goes without saying. I don't think I could ever not have a multidog household, it would feel unnatural!

Remember, you have plenty of choice. Only go for a dog because you click with the dog and you see your dog clicking with him/her as well. It may be well worth your while considering fostering a dog before you make a leap.

Ms Doubtfire1

young sheppie with lots of energy? get a best friend. I would almost say get another sheppie of the same age.A Male - wouldn't go for a different breed, sheppies play in an odd way (lots of snapping and growling and stuff - but never serious) and I always felt they played best with the same breed.Just my 2 cents...

Ms Doubtfire1

..plus...you could always foster for a while?

volchitsa

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

young sheppie with lots of energy? get a best friend. I would almost say get another sheppie of the same age.A Male - wouldn't go for a different breed, sheppies play in an odd way (lots of snapping and growling and stuff - but never serious) and I always felt they played best with the same breed.Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for that, and Vonvix above, that's the kind of thing I want to think about!

I think she's ok for paying with other breeds, she plays with a (smallish) Dobermann and they love each other - they play completely silently, even though she's quite barky at "things" generally. I've seen her once or twice barking at a dog that wasn't playing "enough" but the Dobermann does that too.

She definitely needs a biggish dog though, and one that likes to play.
She mostly ignores small dogs, and seems to find collies only middling to play with. Not too sure why. She likes GSDs as well, but then I'm going by the dogs we see regularly, so probably can't extrapolate.

We're going to see the dog on Saturday, and the lady said if we took him and it didn't work out she would take him back, they have about 15 dogs in a kennel so it's not urgent for them.

I'd rather consider it like you say, as a foster placement rather than "permanent but we might still give him back!"! I guess it comes down to the same thing, in a way, but I don't like the idea of committing and then changing our minds. Anyway that's what I suggested to her, possibly a trial placement if they get on ok when they meet. On the whole maybe a setter is likely not to be the best second dog, if they're really different characters. We'll have to see.

Thanks a lot for the replies, I'll think about that.

Do dogs that get on ok tend to stay that way, or can they gradually come to dislike each other? They're both under two - is that good in that they'll get used to each other more easily, or is it a problem because their possibly different characters may firm up and make them incompatible when they're four or five or whatever?

Ms Doubtfire1

Do dogs that get on ok tend to stay that way, or can they gradually come to dislike each other? They're both under two - is that good in that they'll get used to each other more easily, or is it a problem because their possibly different characters may firm up and make them incompatible when they're four or five or whatever?

It can happen (the dislike) but it's rare. if you stay with 2 different sexes you'll be ok in general.

volchitsa

And if they, say, tolerate each other rather than being "bestest friends", would you say they still act as company for each other or would you just have two lonely dogs waiting for their owner to come and spend time with them?

Ms Doubtfire1

In all fairness, I've never seen a male and a female see just to tolerate each other.They usually become a very bonded pair.

Knine

Same sex dogs particularly bitches can live together for years & fall out with very serious consequences. Males can become pals again but the bitches might not ever be trusted together again. Now many bitches do get along great but there is always the risk particularly with certain breeds.

Mixed sex usually work best. However some neutered males will attack bitches.

I have 3 bitches & 1 dog & all is mostly ok but I am very careful around resources & they play with toys under supervision.

volchitsa

Thanks Knine. I don't know if he's neutered. Though I suspect not, as if the people that found him have 15 dogs, so they must breed some from time to time and I don't suppose they'd be in any hurry to spend extra vet fees on a dog that they aren't planning on keeping. Though he could have been done before they found him (6 months ago, he'd have been something over a year or a 18 months).

What if both are neutered, does that affect the interaction between them? Does that make it a bit like having two bitches?

Knine

volchitsa wrote: »

What if both are neutered, does that affect the interaction between them? Does that make it a bit like having two bitches?

No still easier then 2 bitches. Bitches just don't tend to make up as easily as the dogs. My neutered Jack Russell attacked one of my Border bitches over a toy & I had to rescue him as she would have seriously injured him.

Our entire dog tends to surrender everything to all to the ladies. :-)

volchitsa

Right. Funny that. A bit like girls at school then?

About the fighting over resources, does that mean we'd have to be really careful not to leave balls and stuff outside in case they fought over stuff when we weren't watching them? (The garden is big and she has a big burst football she carries around a lot for example)

Or would they fight just as much over a branch or something they found? So that it might be better to have a few things there that they don't care about - tennis balls for instance are also to be found lying around the garden a lot these days, but they're pretty interchangeable apparently, so maybe less likely to cause fights?

Knine

volchitsa wrote: »

Right. Funny that. A bit like girls at school then?

About the fighting over resources, does that mean we'd have to be really careful not to leave balls and stuff outside in case they fought over stuff when we weren't watching them? (The garden is big and she has a big burst football she carries around a lot for example)

Or would they fight just as much over a branch or something they found? So that it might be better to have a few things there that they don't care about - tennis balls for instance are also to be found lying around the garden a lot these days, but they're pretty interchangeable apparently, so maybe less likely to cause fights?

They may well not fight at all. I just happen to have 2 very ball driven bitches who always want the same ball no matter how many others are there lol. Also mine are terriers so that probably does not help either.

Mixed sex dogs are usually fine. In fairness most of the time mine are playing with each other. Very much like school girls. I am lucky really to have 3 terriers bitches that get on fairly well. The 4th a dog has no hope of holding onto his toys. They definitely do love the company though.

DBB

With a male and a female, the chances of trouble between them are many times less than 2 dogs of the same sex.
I'm rehoming dogs almost 20 years now, and I have yet to see the relationship between a male and female breaking down in the future if there are signs of good early chemistry between them... Polite, reasonably comfortable, and invitations to play are all great signs. Now, there's every chance of a few "handbags at dawn" incidents in the first few weeks as they get to know each other, and what lines not to cross... But that's all it is between a male and a female... Handbags at dawn! The odd scuffle at worst, with no harm done.
I've never, that I can think of off the top of my head, seen a male-female pair fall out irrevocably as time passes... By far and away that's most likely to happen between 2 bitches where it happens, and I've seen that happen many times. Like knine says, it's very hard to fix things between two bitches once their relationship has broken down.
My first dog-of-my-own was a westie. He could be antsy with some dogs, but by jebus he would not tolerate other dogs in his house. Think Taz, the cartoon Tasmanian Devil
To cut a long story short, I ended up adopting an utterly inoffensive spaniel x Shih Tsu. The westie was beside himself about it... Really, absolutely furious. But I started to see a chink in his armour after a few days. They were never best buddies, but they certainly developed a grudging fondness for one another over the years and yes... They seemed to miss each other if separated.
If that cranky little westie could learn to live with another dog, then most dogs can. But what was vital was that she wasn't a fighter... She was, as I say, inoffensive, and wouldn't hurt a fly. But she did make it clear to him a few times to bugger off with himself... No harm done.
I wouldn't get terribly hung up on breed.. This is going to be down to individuals, and bringing your lass to meet dogs to see how they are with each other.

volchitsa

So we (son and I) went today. Not too sure what to think, as he was so intimidated by us that he didn't do anything much other than lie down on his side and then when we went for a walk he just stayed beside his current owner. He wouldn't even take treats from us, except when dropped on the ground.

Lola did a couple of "play" bows to him and when he didn't really react she just went exploring, new place and all that, and just ignored him.

The lady says he's fine with dogs normally, and he's out loose or else in the dog run with the other dogs (she's got dozens, all hunting dogs, not too sure what breed, plus a house dog, another setter). They found this dog hanging around her parents' farm, half starved and stealing food, put ads in the local vets and so on, nobody came forward, so then she thought he could hunt but he was terrified of the sound of guns. So he's there for now, but she thinks he'd love to be in a family.

He's still very skinny and as I say was quite frightened. Something I'm not used to, our girl is so confident and happy, too much so sometimes! - and I don't know if his fear is just because of his previous bad experiences and maybe he could be really happy with us, or maybe he's a permanently scared dog who'll always be terrified every time someone new comes to the house.

I need to talk it over with my husband, who's less keen than me TBH, and see if we try taking him for a few days or weeks to see how it goes.

How long would it take for him to at least get back to his usual level of confidence (which I'm guessing isn't very high anyway) if he stayed with us? Enough so that would let us see if he and Lola get on together and can be company for each other, or if they would just tolerate each other's presence.

What I really don't want is to end up with a dog who's not getting what he needs either. He's attached to this woman, clearly, so if he has to get used to us that would be a further wrench in his life, and if he's not going to find his new life much better than what he's got now, and if Lola doesn't absolutely love having him around, then there's no point really.

Except to take him off her hands of course, but that's not really a reason.

volchitsa

One positive thing is I'd say he'd be very much the underdog, I can't see him fighting over resources or anything, unless that's something that comes out later as they gain a bit of confidence.

(I'm thinking of something like neglected children in a new home, testing boundaries - but maybe that's not comparable).

But I think being boss dog would suit Madame very well. She doesn't like being ordered around, we've noticed that about her, she'll "huff" a bit before she obeys at times. Likes to save face.

DBB

He sounds like a dog for whom novelty is a bit scary. I'm also going to come out and say that although I've met some fantastic working gundog owners, my word when they're bad, they're terrible... A gunshy dog is not born, it's made, and I'm sorry, but I can't stop myself judging shooting folk who end up with a gunshy dog, because it means they haven't a clue what they're doing.... Which leads me to wonder what else they've done to feck up their dogs. The fact that he was found straying and under the circumstances you describe also speaks an absolute multitude for the arse who owned him previously.
Right. Rant over.
I don't feel that you're likely to run into temperament issues with him. He sounds like a gentle soul quite befitting of his breed, and whilst he's quite likely to grow somewhat in confidence, given what you describe it's unlikely he's ever going to be a pushy or confident fella.
Dogs like him tend to get extraordinarily close to their owners, which is what you're seeing with him and his present keeper... But he can transfer this bond, and I'd argue that as a pet house dog, this will happen quickly and completely, as he gets far more one-to-one than he could possibly be getting now.
The English Setters are generally very amiable towards all comers.. Personally, I've never worked with one for any semblance of aggression issues towards man or beast. They're wonderful This lad just doesn't sound like a dog with any sharp edges.
Are you far away from him? Could you go visit him with Lola a few more times?
I would be very tempted to take a punt on him Volchitsa! I think he'll blossom in a home environment. But obviously you all need to be on board.
As an aside, if you do adopt him, I'd suggest not neutering him for the foreseeable, as nervous males can regress somewhat with the removal of testosterone.

volchitsa

DBB wrote: »

He sounds like a dog for whom novelty is a bit scary. I'm also going to come out and say that although I've met some fantastic working gundog owners, my word when they're bad, they're terrible... A gunshy dog is not born, it's made, and I'm sorry, but I can't stop myself judging shooting folk who end up with a gunshy dog, because it means they haven't a clue what they're doing.... Which leads me to wonder what else they've done to feck up their dogs. The fact that he was found straying and under the circumstances you describe also speaks an absolute multitude for the arse who owned him previously.
Right. Rant over.
I don't feel that you're likely to run into temperament issues with him. He sounds like a gentle soul quite befitting of his breed, and whilst he's quite likely to grow somewhat in confidence, given what you describe it's unlikely he's ever going to be a pushy or confident fella.
Dogs like him tend to get extraordinarily close to their owners, which is what you're seeing with him and his present keeper... But he can transfer this bond, and I'd argue that as a pet house dog, this will happen quickly and completely, as he gets far more one-to-one than he could possibly be getting now.
The English Setters are generally very amiable towards all comers.. Personally, I've never worked with one for any semblance of aggression issues towards man or beast. They're wonderful This lad just doesn't sound like a dog with any sharp edges.
Are you far away from him? Could you go visit him with Lola a few more times?
I would be very tempted to take a punt on him Volchitsa!I think he'll blossom in a home environment. But obviously you all need to be on board.
As an aside, if you do adopt him, I'd suggest not neutering him for the foreseeable, as nervous males can regress somewhat with the removal of testosterone.

That's what my son and I both felt when we saw him, that maybe with love and attention he could develop into a dog that was happy and wasn't so afraid of things! And I don't think he's unhappy where he is, just it's not a long term solution for him.

When you say gundogs are made, do you mean the people who apparently abandoned him, or the woman who has him now? I imagine you mean whoever the others were, but we don't actually know that he was used for hunting before.

Another thing, we don't know his exact age, under three she said, going by his teeth, and I noticed when she showed me them that they were much yellower than Lola's and the first molar (I think - long low tooth in the middle of his mouth) had a grey middle section. Like it was a different material from the rest of the tooth. Is that just poor diet or actual tooth decay? And is it complicated/expensive to treat?

And yes, good point about neutering, it's not an urgent issue for us as Lola is spayed, so fair enough, we'd definitely leave it for the foreseeable. Thanks for that.

DBB

volchitsa wrote: »

When you say gundogs are made, do you mean the people who apparently abandoned him, or the woman who has him now? I imagine you mean whoever the others were, but we don't actually know that he was used for hunting before.

No, I specifically mean that gunshy gundogs are made, not born (actually... There may be some hereditary component to noise sensitivity... But this would be forcefully selected against in gundogs). Their gunshy-ness is purely a function of the early owner trying to habituate the pups to loud noises too loud and/or too fast, inevitably frightening the sh!te out of the pup, and setting a fear of sudden, loud noises for life.
If he's gunshy, it is almost certain that his initial owner got him for shooting over. And made a balls of it.

Another thing, we don't know his exact age, under three she said, going by his teeth, and I noticed when she showed me them that they were much yellower than Lola's and the first molar (I think - long low tooth in the middle of his mouth) had a grey middle section. Like it was a different material from the rest of the tooth. Is that just poor diet or actual tooth decay? And is it complicated/expensive to treat?

It doesn't sound right, but I can't really envisage what you mean either! I wonder could you find something similar on Google and post it?

volchitsa

Just spent some time looking at disgusting pictures of dog dental decay for you, but to no avail, alas! It could possibly be plaque?

What about the fact that they were noticeably yellow - is that unusual in young dogs? Or can that depend on the dog or on the breed?

Knine

volchitsa wrote: »

Just spent some time looking at disgusting pictures of dog dental decay for you, but to no avail, alas! It could possibly be plaque?

What about the fact that they were noticeably yellow - is that unusual in young dogs? Or can that depend on the dog or on the breed?

It can depend on the dog & breed. I just checked the mouth of my 4 year old Border Terrier for you. He definitely has some plague that needs to come off but he still has nice white teeth. Old dogs often have more yellow worn teeth iykwim.

DBB

If he's under 3, then he should have quite a distinctive feature on his incisors (short, front teeth... The nippy ones!) that disappears at around 3.
The incisors in a dog younger than 3 will have a tri-lobed shape... The tip of them should have 3 lobes, rather than be smooth. I'll see if I can find a pic to illustrate!

DBB

Okay... This is not a beautifully arranged set of teeth, but you can see the tri-lobed shape I mean on those top incisors.



This is an older dog (more than 3), you can see that biting surface has lost the lobes (this dog has an undershot lower jaw, so the loss of lobes is more obvious on the bottom teeth, whereas the above dog is overshot)... In the 3+ dog the incisors are more like human incisors... Sort of



Older dogs do tend to have discoloured teeth, but young dogs who've been fed a rubbish diet can also suffer from a plaque build-up. It's not really a reliable indicator of age... It's wear and tear on the biting surfaces that are the best indicators, though it becomes a less precise estimation in the years between 3ish and elderly.

Anyone else prying their dogs mouth open for a looksee?

volchitsa

OH thanks for those pics, lovely!

Just to be clear, I'm not worried about his age, I can't see why this woman wouldn't be reliable. She's not trying to sell him or anything.

So I presume there's another explanation for his teeth, and I think poor diet would explain it alright. Plus the woman's dogs are all a bit skinny - and she did say she was feeding them less now the hunting season is closed, and also that they don't eat just kibble. Who knows what they eat. I can imagine with so many, anywhere savings can be made isn't to be sniffed at. So I'm not blaming her.

But basically Lola's teeth are lovely and white, his aren't, so I just wondered if that was an important sign of health or not. She's asleep just now so I'll look at that lobe business tomorrow, just out of interest.

Thanks for all your help by the way.

DBB

Shooting folk tend to keep their dogs very lean, which is fine.
What I can't say us whether she's any good at accurately estimating age from teeth... A lot of people aren't
Other than that, I don't want you to think that I'm criticising the lady in any way at all... She stood up to the plate for this dog after all. It doesn't sound to me that she's up for criticism

Knine

I agree lean is ok. My Borders are mostly lean. What many people call lean is often actually fit working condition.

Most breeds require a scissors bite. This means top incisors closely overlap bottom incisors. A level bite is permissible but will mean a lot more wear & tear so take this into consideration when looking at teeth. Level means the teeth are meeting. Dogs with a scissors bite have better grip when working, especially true for terrier & gundog breeds.

Sorry no pics because I have nobody to do the photos while I show the teeth! Lol

volchitsa

Copying these over from another thread about a second dog, rather than hijacking that one :

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Re new arrival? Well, firstly, do NOT leave them alone together for a while (at least 2-3 month) until they are totally at ease with each other.Always separate them if you go out for a longer time.

aonb wrote: »

I reckon it takes 2-3 weeks for a fairly confident dog to relax in a new home. Longer for a timid/stressed dog

I'm a bit worried about this - I get that they need their own beds and food bowls, and to remove toys they might fight over etc, and indeed have them sleep in different rooms initially - which is possible though a bit of a pain as we have an openplan living-room/kitchen/dining room and otherwise there's just the hall or the small bathroom downstairs, and we don't let Lola go upstairs so obviously a new dog would be the same! But that can be done.

How long before we could leave them alone together in the garden though - it's about 1500m2 iirc (bit under 1/4 acre, I think) and closed off, and with a couple of sheds they could stay away from each other if needed but still sheltered?

What we can't really do, or not without a lot of work, is split it so they're in separate parts of the garden, plus it kind of defeats the purpose anyway.

So if we took this other dog as a foster initially, how long before we could:

1) leave them alone in the garden together, knowing that the other dog is used to being with dogs and Lola likes other dogs generally?

2) leave them alone in the house, where there would be less room for one to get away from the other if there was any conflict?

Because from a practical point of view, unless we wait till the summer holidays, they'd be on their own for at least four hours Monday-Wed. Thurs-Sun there's always someone here, but it looks like from now until the end of June Mon-Wed will be away days!

I guess we could foster 4 days a week, but I'm not sure that's fair on the dogs or the current "owner".

Knine

Can you remind me if you were getting the opposite sex to the dog you already have? If so & they are getting on great then I would leave it a week or 2 & you should be fine.

I remove all resources except the water bucket.

volchitsa

Yes, unneutered male (seems very timid and non confrontational!) under 3 years old (maybe only 2) would be joining an 18 month old spayed bitch.

It's the "getting on great" I'm not sure about, because he's so timid. They only met once, but there are dogs she's met and played like mad with, whereas he was so intimidated by us that he didn't respond to her ouvertures at all, so she just ignored him and went exploring.

So I was thinking the only way to see if they got on would be to get past that initial fear that he has, and I thought fostering would be the way to go.

But then if we can only take him while we're sure to be around non stop, and if he might take weeks to get over his fears, that might make the logistics a bit more complicated.

DBB

I know putting a lot of thought into these things is really important, but at the same time, try not to overthink it either
I'm not a fan of putting dogs in separate rooms... I think it's much better to keep them in safe contact with each other. To this end, have you got a room that you could stick a baby gate on the door and put the new lad in there, leaving Lola free in the rest of the house she's currently allowed in?
I think, given his shyness, you're far less likely to run into problems when you leave them in the early days... If they were both really rambunctious in mutual play I'd be more concerned, due to the risk of it boiling over into an irritated squabble. So... In short, given what you've described about both dogs, I think you'll be able to leave them alone together soon enough.. As knine says, a week or two should do it.