2 storey extension - Roof options?

Howdy folks,

I know I made a thread here recently and was helped a lot so figured I'd try my luck on this question, too.


I am putting a two storey extension on the rear of the house. The attic in the house is effectively a useless, dead space, as the roof is too low (i have never actually stood up inside the attic, but if I had to guess, I'd say that the max height (apex roof) in the centre is about 6ft.

Pretty much means that as it stands, it's not going to be anything more than storage space if I try my luck at converting it.


However, as I'm gonna be messing with the house anyway, i figured it'd make sense to see are there any options that can make the attic a more usable space?

For a 2 storey extension, what generally happens the roof? Presumably the centre point stays where it is, and the rear of the house (where the extension is) is just not as steep as it has further to travel to the end of the house?

Is sticking a dormer style window (ie; pretty much adding an extra floor) an option in this kinda situation?

This is the kinda thing I mean:





(the jagged red line is the roof after the extension)



I have an architect popping over sometime next week. So I know he will be able to tell me what is feasible here. Really, the reason I'm making the thread is to see what other people's thoughts are and to see if perhaps anyone has any better ideas i can use or bounce off him at all.

For a 2 storey extension, does 1/2 of the roof get dismantled completely? (ie the rear half that is gonna be getting messed with?). If this is the case, can you build the front half higher? (so the roof itself is an extra foot or so taller, and the longer drop to the rear means a more usable space?).


I've never actually seen a 2 storey extension being built, nor have I been in one, so I'm not fully sure how it works. I have seen a couple around the place but i wouldnt know the owners of the house and cant really get a decent view from the street of them, so they're not much use to me.

Anyone got any insight or idea here?


The house is an end-terrace house, and the neighbour doesnt really care if i build on the party wall (so effectively the extension will be the proper full width of the house and not stepped-in to avoid building on the boundary).


Cheers to anyone with any insight

massey265

Would a gambrel roof with a gable end be more suited and gain more height for attic? You'll have to Google that type off roof as I can't doodle on board's

Ah that's a clever one! I never heard of that before (although I am familiar with the design)

It looks good, but based on it's appearance, and that it would likely be the only one of it's design in the entire estate (and neighbouring estates) i reckon it wouldnt pass planning permission as it's possibly not in keeping with the area or something?

However, pretty much the same thing, with a flatter roof, called a Mansard roof (according to the pic below) could well work?





Today I ventured into the attic for the first time in a long time, and it's actually a lot lower than I thought it was. It's only about 4' 6" inside (guessing, didnt actually get to measure it).

I wonder, would anyone know, would it be expensive to add to the roof height? (effectively remove the entire back half of the roof, built the front half two foot higher, and then put the new roof on? (I'm assuming that a large part of the back half of the roof will be dismantled anyway, so figure it makes sense to do all this at the same time).


Something like this:





(as it's at the rear of the house, I don't think planning would be a big issue, but it's more the cost I would be fearful of.. Im not sure if adding to the ceiling is immediately talking crazy money?)

Gumbo

Planning may be an issue with all options, especially the last one above.
Usually with a 2 storey like the OP's, you run with an open gable end or a hipped roof and the ridge of the extension is lower than the existing roof.

I actually found this house near me. It has pretty much the same extension I want:







The key difference being that that house has more headroom in the attic (for some reason the houses in my estate, a neighbouring one, have a lower pitched roof on them) so they didn't have to low headroom issue that I face.

Gumbo

^^^^^^
That's a gable end extension/roof as I mentioned above.
Although they seem to have gained permission to match the ridge height so that should mean you can do the same.

Metric Tensor

First time in my boards career where I can legitimately say - pics or GTFO!

Can you upload pictures of your attic. That we we can tell you if the structure is a cut roof or a trussed roof - this has a huge effect on the structural requirements of extending it ... No matter which option you decide/get permission for.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

^^^^^^
That's a gable end extension/roof as I mentioned above.
Although they seem to have gained permission to match the ridge height so that should mean you can do the same.

Unfortunately my issue is that the ridge height is too low. On that house (in fact, on every house in the surrounding neighbourhoods) the attic has a decent height. But for some reason, in our estate, all the houses were built with low pitched roofs. I've no idea why.

My house is end terrace (like the one pictured).

Metric Tensor wrote: »

First time in my boards career where I can legitimately say - pics or GTFO!

Can you upload pictures of your attic. That we we can tell you if the structure is a cut roof or a trussed roof - this has a huge effect on the structural requirements of extending it ... No matter which option you decide/get permission for.

I have these pictures. Attic is never really used and has no light or such so the photos are crap, but here they are anyway:






As far as I know, i can cut away the joists that are 'in the way', if I re-enforce the ones that are running diagonally along the roof first (So i can open it up to make it a space that you can actually walk around).

Thing is I'm not overly fussed about doing that right now. There's a bit of work to be done to actually convert the attic (getting rid of chimney breast, moving water tank etc.) and I dont need the space right now, but whilst I'm extending at the back, and interfering with the roof, I do want to do whatever i can to raise the height of the apex so i can convert it down the line (I know I will eventually want to).

Calahonda52

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I know, i can cut away the joists that are 'in the way', if I re-enforce the ones that are running diagonally along the roof first (So i can open it up to make it a space that you can actually walk around).

.

Some points on attic conversions below, once you go 3 storey some serious fire reg issues
http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately my issue is that the ridge height is too low. On that house (in fact, on every house in the surrounding neighbourhoods) the attic has a decent height. But for some reason, in our estate, all the houses were built with low pitched roofs. I've no idea why.

My house is end terrace (like the one pictured).





I have these pictures. Attic is never really used and has no light or such so the photos are crap, but here they are anyway:






As far as I know, i can cut away the joists that are 'in the way', if I re-enforce the ones that are running diagonally along the roof first (So i can open it up to make it a space that you can actually walk around).

Thing is I'm not overly fussed about doing that right now. There's a bit of work to be done to actually convert the attic (getting rid of chimney breast, moving water tank etc.) and I dont need the space right now, but whilst I'm extending at the back, and interfering with the roof, I do want to do whatever i can to raise the height of the apex so i can convert it down the line (I know I will eventually want to).

Cut away joists.
Remove chimney breast.
Convert attic.

As Honda says above, seek expert guidance from an engineer.

Are you planning to convert the attic in the existing house and the extension for use?

Metric Tensor

That's a trussed roof. More difficult to convert than what's known as a cut roof. Not only do you have to support the rafters everywhere they are currently supported but you have to consider that the diagonals also tie in the bottom chord / ceiling joist.

It's not impossible to convert and it is done a lot in city contexts where there is no alternative but it requires careful design from a structural engineer.

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Some points on attic conversions below, once you go 3 storey some serious fire reg issues
http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Would 3 storey regulations apply in my case? I'm not expecting the attic to be classed officially as anything more than storage area (not looking to increase the number of bedrooms, for example).

kceire wrote: »

Cut away joists.
Remove chimney breast.
Convert attic.

As Honda says above, seek expert guidance from an engineer.

Are you planning to convert the attic in the existing house and the extension for use?

The hope would be to raise the height of the apex a foot or two, and have that travel back onto the extension at that height, so it's a large open space that can be stood up in (as it stands, the apex height is about 4'6", so serious crouching going on and not at all comfortable to be up there).

Metric Tensor wrote: »

That's a trussed roof. More difficult to convert than what's known as a cut roof. Not only do you have to support the rafters everywhere they are currently supported but you have to consider that the diagonals also tie in the bottom chord / ceiling joist.

It's not impossible to convert and it is done a lot in city contexts where there is no alternative but it requires careful design from a structural engineer.

Can I ask, i have an architect coming during the week (when exactly, I don't know, but this week at some point).

Can he give a thumbs up/down to it, or must it be a structural engineer? (I don't really know what each person does, to be honest or what overlap there is between them).

I'd be quite happy not actually converting the attic for a few years, but I just want to make sure that the roof height is increased so I have the option to do it down the line (rather than leaving the roof as it is, and ruling out ever being able to convert the attic).

Metric Tensor

The architect will tell you that an engineer will be required at some point in the process to address the structure of the roof. Some builders might chance their arm doing the job without an engineer but chance with an R after it would be the appropriate word in that case!

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

Would 3 storey regulations apply in my case? I'm not expecting the attic to be classed officially as anything more than storage area (not looking to increase the number of bedrooms, for example).





The hope would be to raise the height of the apex a foot or two, and have that travel back onto the extension at that height, so it's a large open space that can be stood up in (as it stands, the apex height is about 4'6", so serious crouching going on and not at all comfortable to be up there).





Can I ask, i have an architect coming during the week (when exactly, I don't know, but this week at some point).

Can he give a thumbs up/down to it, or must it be a structural engineer? (I don't really know what each person does, to be honest or what overlap there is between them).

I'd be quite happy not actually converting the attic for a few years, but I just want to make sure that the roof height is increased so I have the option to do it down the line (rather than leaving the roof as it is, and ruling out ever being able to convert the attic).

The architect you have dropping in should be experienced in your local area and should know what the planning dept generally allow.

I would specifically tell people not to apply for what you are looking for unless there is an immediate precedence set. If the clients still insists on applying for they style then it's at their own risk of refusal and back to the start.

3 storey dwelling regulations apply if you add a permanent stairs case up to the new attic imo.

Ah there'll be no permanent staircase.. well.. I'm hoping to stick in one of those 'stira' style of doors/foldable ladders. I don't know if that counts as permanent or not?

This kinda craic:

http://a0.amlimg.com/NGZjNWUyOGZkNGU5ZmYwMDNjMDBmMzM3MTczNzEzOWUt1rlBWhxeNAJccTou27WlaHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmFkc2ltZy5jb20vMDdhOWI1MTE5MWUwYzFkYzY5MzQzZTllODU2ZjgzMzU2YTlhNWMyZGRlMDAzYTA1ODY4ODMzY2Q4ZjQzYjI4NC5qcGd8fHx8fHw1MjV4NTI1fGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWR2ZXJ0cy5pZS9zdGF0aWMvaS93YXRlcm1hcmsucG5nfHx8.jpg




I wouldn't have the space for an actual extra staircase. I'd have nowhere for it to go.


If i were to apply for planning for a 10ft extension, and the weirdest, wackiest roof in the world, does it just get approved or declined in a black and white decision, or do you get feedback (ie; planning refused because the roof is a bit wacky, but if you do a normal apex roof we'll approve) or do you just have to apply over and over with several designs until its eventually approved?

Alternatively, can you apply several designs in one go? (that is; if im worried my roof wont be allowed, can i apply for planning for the taller roof, and the normal roof, at the same time, and if both are approved, then i just throw the tall roof on, but if the tall roof is declined and the normal roof approved, at least i know where i stand?)

I know the architect will tell me this, but as i say, i'd like to just have a foot on the ladder so when he comes I already have a basic idea of whats going on around me I'll probably only see him once realistically before he draws his plans, so it's good to be able to get a few ideas to fire at him all at once (an example being that I now know the names of different roof styles, know that my attic is a trussed roof, etc.) Things i didn't know before ye guys enlightened me

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah there'll be no permanent staircase.. well.. I'm hoping to stick in one of those 'stira' style of doors/foldable ladders. I don't know if that counts as permanent or not?

This kinda craic:

http://a0.amlimg.com/NGZjNWUyOGZkNGU5ZmYwMDNjMDBmMzM3MTczNzEzOWUt1rlBWhxeNAJccTou27WlaHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmFkc2ltZy5jb20vMDdhOWI1MTE5MWUwYzFkYzY5MzQzZTllODU2ZjgzMzU2YTlhNWMyZGRlMDAzYTA1ODY4ODMzY2Q4ZjQzYjI4NC5qcGd8fHx8fHw1MjV4NTI1fGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWR2ZXJ0cy5pZS9zdGF0aWMvaS93YXRlcm1hcmsucG5nfHx8.jpg




I wouldn't have the space for an actual extra staircase. I'd have nowhere for it to go.


If i were to apply for planning for a 10ft extension, and the weirdest, wackiest roof in the world, does it just get approved or declined in a black and white decision, or do you get feedback (ie; planning refused because the roof is a bit wacky, but if you do a normal apex roof we'll approve) or do you just have to apply over and over with several designs until its eventually approved?

Alternatively, can you apply several designs in one go? (that is; if im worried my roof wont be allowed, can i apply for planning for the taller roof, and the normal roof, at the same time, and if both are approved, then i just throw the tall roof on, but if the tall roof is declined and the normal roof approved, at least i know where i stand?)

I know the architect will tell me this, but as i say, i'd like to just have a foot on the ladder so when he comes I already have a basic idea of whats going on around me I'll probably only see him once realistically before he draws his plans, so it's good to be able to get a few ideas to fire at him all at once (an example being that I now know the names of different roof styles, know that my attic is a trussed roof, etc.) Things i didn't know before ye guys enlightened me

It depends.
You can't apply for both as the wording is different for both and it would double the work involved (every drawing has to be done twice ).

The council could in theory refuse it based on the character of the extension or they could grant with a condition to alter or request further info for a design change but it's risky as you don't know the workload of the planner at that time and the easy clean choice is to refuse the design in front of them.

db

I think you should forget the idea of increasing the height of the roof and just concentrate on the extension. As your house is part of a terrace you will not be able to make changes in the height of your roof without impacting your neighbour and the cost of a change like this just to provide extra storage space would not be economical. I would also be doubtful that the planners would approve a change that would increase the height of one house in a terrace.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I know, i can cut away the joists that are 'in the way', if I re-enforce the ones that are running diagonally along the roof first (So i can open it up to make it a space that you can actually walk around).

Definitely need a structural engineer if undertaking any works which will affect or tie into a truss roof. Truss roofs are specifically engineered and designed. Once you make any changes by cutting out or placing additional loading or directional forces on any of the timber members (even works by joining a new roof onto the existing), you affect the structural integrity of the truss as a whole.

This usually stands for traditional timber cut roofs too, however there is more leeway and forgiveness in a cut roof than a truss roof. The timbers in truss roofs are smaller and spaced at wider intervals, but they work due to their prefabricated manufacture and engineered design. Once you change the loadings they take or cut out any part of the timber members, they are no longer capable of taking the same loading unless additional timber or engineered design is used to correct this.

tradesman

db wrote: »

I think you should forget the idea of increasing the height of the roof and just concentrate on the extension. As your house is part of a terrace you will not be able to make changes in the height of your roof without impacting your neighbour and the cost of a change like this just to provide extra storage space would not be economical. I would also be doubtful that the planners would approve a change that would increase the height of one house in a terrace.

+1 on this point - You should try & maximise the extension ie: go wider / longer. Doing work to the original roof is not going to be cost effective IMO.

Cheers for the replies folks.

A lot to mull over I'll have the architect here during the week and see what he has to say and I'll report back.

In terms of maximising the extension, I am going out approximately 10ft with it (it will be the full width of the house). I could probably push it a bit more but the further back I go, the more of the garden I lose, and I like having a bit of a garden there to sit out in it on a nice day, or look out at it on a miserable, rainy one.

So I don't really want to go too far out with it, but at the same time, even if I went out 50ft, it'd still kill me it think I have an 'extra floor' that I can't use for anything. I'll probably never, ever have a need for the space the attic would give me, but I'd hate to be giving it up without a fight, at the same time.


Has anyone done anything like this before? Or can anyone advise on money/costs to touch this kinda thing (assuming planning permission was granted).

The general theme seems to be that it's gonna be poor in terms of value for money, not very cost effective, not economical, etc. but I'm wondering what that means in terms of cash? Considering a roof has to go onto the back of the house anyway, if the builder told me it'd be an extra €1k, 2k or 3k to raise the roof an extra foot or two, I'd jump at it. I'd consider that great value for money (considering the amount of space it unlocks). If it was anything over 5k I'd be sitting down for a long hard think, though, and if it touched double digits I'd have no choice but to rule it out (but that seems unlikely in the extreme).

markc1184

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I actually found this house near me. It has pretty much the same extension I want:

https://s8.postimg.org/58t00f9lx/ext1.jpg

https://s8.postimg.org/rjgv0e6w5/ext_2.jpg



The key difference being that that house has more headroom in the attic (for some reason the houses in my estate, a neighbouring one, have a lower pitched roof on them) so they didn't have to low headroom issue that I face.

With regards to this, as you know I live up the road from this house. It may look like there is more roof space but you can take my word for it that it's no more than a few inches in the difference. I'm 5'10 and can just about stand up just in the centre and that's about it. The attics on these are good for nothing more than storage in my opinion although I know there are houses with conversions, they can't be at all comfortable.

markc1184

markc1184 wrote: »

With regards to this, as you know I live up the road from this house. It may look like there is more roof space but you can take my word for it that it's no more than a few inches in the difference. I'm 5'10 and can just about stand up just in the centre and that's about it. The attics on these are good for nothing more than storage in my opinion although I know there are houses with conversions, they can't be at all comfortable.

Howdy Mark.

See you say you can stand in the centre, though, unfortunately I don't even have that luxury.

If you were to put an extension on the back of your house, and copy the roof style 2 below, and made it a 'mansard' roof, you'd have a lot of usable space.





I only found this today - but my brother is around the corner from you, and there is a house to the side of him that I recently noticed has a 2 storey extension and similar roof to what I described above. They have windows on it, so i presume it's a usable space? I was under the impression the height of those houses, and the height of yours were the same?







As an aside, the above picture extension is pretty much bang on what I would like to do! (except, again, obviously adding to the height to make it usable and with a more 'mansard' style roof to it to increase the width of the headroom).

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

The general theme seems to be that it's gonna be poor in terms of value for money, not very cost effective, not economical, etc. but I'm wondering what that means in terms of cash? Considering a roof has to go onto the back of the house anyway, if the builder told me it'd be an extra €1k, 2k or 3k to raise the roof an extra foot or two, I'd jump at it. I'd consider that great value for money (considering the amount of space it unlocks). If it was anything over 5k I'd be sitting down for a long hard think, though, and if it touched double digits I'd have no choice but to rule it out (but that seems unlikely in the extreme).

Building it is the easy bit.
Getting the fire separation detail is tricky and getting the legal permission from your neighbours may be more costly that actually building it.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Building it is the easy bit.
Getting the fire separation detail is tricky and getting the legal permission from your neighbours may be more costly that actually building it.

I'm pretty confident the neighbour couldn't care less.

I thought I'd be able to avoid fire safety regulations etc. by it not being an actual habitable space on paper? (ie, even though I want it taller, I don't think it'd qualify as habitable space, and therefore as a glorified storage space, it'd not really need much of the needless regulations that are thrown at living spaces?

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm pretty confident the neighbour couldn't care less.

I thought I'd be able to avoid fire safety regulations etc. by it not being an actual habitable space on paper? (ie, even though I want it taller, I don't think it'd qualify as habitable space, and therefore as a glorified storage space, it'd not really need much of the needless regulations that are thrown at living spaces?

Irrelevant, you will have structural fire safety regulations to comply with, i'm not talking about the internal 3 storey fire regs.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Irrelevant, you will have structural fire safety regulations to comply with, i'm not talking about the internal 3 storey fire regs.

Wold they not be there anyway, then? Even if i wasn't increasing roof height?

tina1040

That's a big investment if no stairs as it will never count a "room". I 'm not sure it would get planning permission without a proper safe stairs unless you tell them it's a storage room.

tina1040

tina1040 wrote: »

That's a big investment if no stairs as it will never count a "room". I 'm not sure it would get planning permission without a proper safe stairs unless you tell them it's a storage room.

I've no issue with it being classed as a storage room. I'll never be selling this house so it's not a case of trying to add value.

At the same time, it likely will only ever be used as a storage space, but as it is, you can't even stand in it, and have to move around on your knees, so it's not even a usable storage space at the moment as the majority of the space is beyond practical reach.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no issue with it being classed as a storage room. I'll never be selling this house so it's not a case of trying to add value.

At the same time, it likely will only ever be used as a storage space, but as it is, you can't even stand in it, and have to move around on your knees, so it's not even a usable storage space at the moment as the majority of the space is beyond practical reach.

When are you meeting your architect?
Be interesting to see what he advises compared to the internet.

My final thoughts would be to forget about increasing the height of the ridge, I can't see it getting through the planning process.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

When are you meeting your architect?
Be interesting to see what he advises compared to the internet.

My final thoughts would be to forget about increasing the height of the ridge, I can't see it getting through the planning process.

He said he was in the UK until monday and would give me a ring to arrange calling over when he gets back. So far I haven't heard from him but I was hoping to get him over at some point this week.

Whatever he says, good, bad or indifferent, I'll be sure to keep the thread updated. Nothing worse than reading a thread that you found, that relates to your own ideas/issues/etc and the person disappears and never says what happened.

Unfortunately, no Architect this week.

I was on the phone to him and he said he'll be over on Tuesday or Wednesday. Said he genuinely forgot about it (and in fairness, i hadn't contacted him since a quick text saying hello a week ago, so I wasn't exactly reminding him).

Folks, can I ask, just before I lock myself into an architect..

I was talking to a friend today, and he was of the opinion that I was mental to involve an architect in the first place, and that I shouldn't use one. Instead I should use an architect engineer or something along those lines (cant remember the exact title).

He was saying that an architect will charge megabucks as they tend to deal with designing one-off houses worth half a million euro and charge an arm and a leg, whereas its the architect engineer that would be more in line with what i want (a fairly straight-forward box extension with a slightly raised roof).


Anyone here with a better bit of knowledge able to offer any insight?

BryanF

Ask the architect

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

Ask the architect

But surely an architect's advice is always going to be 'use an architect'?

BryanF

Sorry but Surely we can't write pages on an unknown person who is depicted as better than an architect on a public forum when we doesn't know the project. Surely the first person you would direct the question to/ your fears to is the professional you had planned to engage? (that is until your friend made up an unknown mythical creation hence forth to be known as: an 'architect engineer')

Metric Tensor

To be fair there are probably other professionals who might be able to do what he needs. He will need an engineer at some point anyway and as he describes the project an architectural technician or an appropriate engineer could probably assist with the design and planning.

However ... why not just ask for a quotation from the professional you have already contacted. You can then decide if this suits your budget. I think most professionals have gotten quite good at giving detailed estimates/quotations in advance.

Said it to the chap earlier, and asked for a rough price to draw up the plans. He said about €2k is what he'd be looking at (excludes other costs, like notices and application costs).

I'm not sure if that's in line with this kinda thing or not?

BryanF

Deleted User wrote: »

Said it to the chap earlier, and asked for a rough price to draw up the plans. He said about ?2k is what he'd be looking at (excludes other costs, like notices and application costs).

I'm not sure if that's in line with this kinda thing or not?

That's cheap for extension design & planning.

If in doubt, Get two more quotes

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

That's cheap for extension design & planning.

If in doubt, Get two more quotes

Ah, in fairness, it's a measured rectangular box. I think I could do it myself, based on the drawings of similar I've seen on the planning section of the council's website.

I realise that architects have to make a living and have learned their trade and are qualified/certified etc. but i think it's a bit overkill to be spending €2,000 on someone to draw something so simple.

(If it had anything overly complicated in it, I could fully understand).

I'll be chatting to the builder tomorrow or tuesday evening and I'll talk to him. If he says I definitely need the architect, I'll get him. If he says it's not 100% necessary, then I can see about putting the brothers tech drawing skills to use (he's a cabinet maker) and get him to whip up something.

BryanF

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, in fairness, it's a measured rectangular box. I think I could do it myself, based on the drawings of similar I've seen on the planning section of the council's website.

I realise that architects have to make a living and have learned their trade and are qualified/certified etc. but i think it's a bit overkill to be spending ?2,000 on someone to draw something so simple.

(If it had anything overly complicated in it, I could fully understand).

I'll be chatting to the builder tomorrow or tuesday evening and I'll talk to him. If he says I definitely need the architect, I'll get him. If he says it's not 100% necessary, then I can see about putting the brothers tech drawing skills to use (he's a cabinet maker) and get him to whip up something.

Best of luck
Report back and let us know how the planning application goes

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, in fairness, it's a measured rectangular box. I think I could do it myself, based on the drawings of similar I've seen on the planning section of the council's website.

I realise that architects have to make a living and have learned their trade and are qualified/certified etc. but i think it's a bit overkill to be spending €2,000 on someone to draw something so simple.

(If it had anything overly complicated in it, I could fully understand).

I'll be chatting to the builder tomorrow or tuesday evening and I'll talk to him. If he says I definitely need the architect, I'll get him. If he says it's not 100% necessary, then I can see about putting the brothers tech drawing skills to use (he's a cabinet maker) and get him to whip up something.

Would you hire an architect to build you a cabinet?

It's not the drawing that's simple. It's knowing what to draw. Knowing everything the Local Authority will be looking for on the application. Knowing the right forms to fill out and how to fill them out properly. Knowing how to implement SuDS into the project. Knowing the general restrictions the Local Authority tend to go by and how to design around that. Knowing how to get some of the supplementary information to go along with the planning. Knowing what the likely structural requirements will be and implementing them into the design now so it doesn't cause trouble trying to introduce them later.

You may not need an architect, but you need someone who understands the planning process and basic design principles.

Again, would you hire an architect to build you a cabinet? Sure anyone could screw together a few bits of plywood.

Lumen

If you want to see the results of building without architects, just take a trip round Ireland and look at the houses. :pac:

ustari

The lack of respect/appreciation for what architects do on this forum from house builders by and large astounds me.

If it is overkill for you then proceed away yourself and see how you get on. Start applying it to all aspects of your life while you are it also, no need for that solicitor, doctor, engineer etc. Sure you have Google.

Howdy folks,


Brother whipped up some very quick drawings. Builder was over today and had a look at them. Said they were great for what was needed, however, he advised I am likely to into issues with my roof design getting approved.

We chatted for a while about the several options available. He reckons I can put in for the planning with the roof idea I want, but if it get declined then I won't be starting the extension until next year as he's out the door with work on.

If it gets approved, he can start on mine then (he's assuming between 8-10 weeks for planning decision to take place).


So my three options are:

1) Go ahead with current design - 2 storey with tall roof, risk it being denied and be put back til next year for the work.
2) Go ahead with 2 storey extension with 'normal' roof and come back to the raised roof at a later date.
3) Build a single storey extension, and incorporate the floor of the 2nd storey into the roof. Return to the 2nd storey and raised roof at a later date.


I really want to get the ball rolling on this, so it means I may not bother with no. 1. And it kills me to build the 2nd storey and not do the raised roof. So my thinking now is to return to just doing a single storey (which requires no planning and can be started on sooner than later), and whilst that's being done, and knowing I'm under no massive pressure, I can work on putting together the planning for the 2nd storey and raised roof (and if it gets approved, return to it next year, if it gets declined, return to the 2nd storey/normal roof next year).


The downside here is I wanted the 2nd storey, and wont get it as soon as i'd like, but the upside I suppose is that I can choose to save up for a while longer and go from there so ive a bit mor emoney to throw at it when the time does come, or if i find that I'm happy enough with just a single storey, i can spend the money i would have used on the 2nd storey, on doing other things to the house (doors, skirting, architrave, new bathroom, knocking chimney breast, etc.).


So the thread has kinda completely moved off from what i was originally thinking. Which is a bit annoying/frustrating.

ustari

ustari wrote: »

The lack of respect/appreciation for what architects do on this forum from house builders by and large astounds me.

If it is overkill for you then proceed away yourself and see how you get on. Start applying it to all aspects of your life while you are it also, no need for that solicitor, doctor, engineer etc. Sure you have Google.

I know, it's so irritating. I'm a photographer and the amount of people i see taking their own communion and confirmation photos is crazy.

Going out and learning to use their own cameras instead of paying me :mad:


You could apply your argument to pretty much every profession or trade in existence.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

Howdy folks,


Brother whipped up some very quick drawings. Builder was over today and had a look at them. Said they were great for what was needed, however, he advised I am likely to into issues with my roof design getting approved.

We chatted for a while about the several options available. He reckons I can put in for the planning with the roof idea I want, but if it get declined then I won't be starting the extension until next year as he's out the door with work on.

If it gets approved, he can start on mine then (he's assuming between 8-10 weeks for planning decision to take place).


So my three options are:

1) Go ahead with current design - 2 storey with tall roof, risk it being denied and be put back til next year for the work.
2) Go ahead with 2 storey extension with 'normal' roof and come back to the raised roof at a later date.
3) Build a single storey extension, and incorporate the floor of the 2nd storey into the roof. Return to the 2nd storey and raised roof at a later date.


I really want to get the ball rolling on this, so it means I may not bother with no. 1. And it kills me to build the 2nd storey and not do the raised roof. So my thinking now is to return to just doing a single storey (which requires no planning and can be started on sooner than later), and whilst that's being done, and knowing I'm under no massive pressure, I can work on putting together the planning for the 2nd storey and raised roof (and if it gets approved, return to it next year, if it gets declined, return to the 2nd storey/normal roof next year).


The downside here is I wanted the 2nd storey, and wont get it as soon as i'd like, but the upside I suppose is that I can choose to save up for a while longer and go from there so ive a bit mor emoney to throw at it when the time does come, or if i find that I'm happy enough with just a single storey, i can spend the money i would have used on the 2nd storey, on doing other things to the house (doors, skirting, architrave, new bathroom, knocking chimney breast, etc.).


So the thread has kinda completely moved off from what i was originally thinking. Which is a bit annoying/frustrating.

Once you lodge, it's 14 weeks before you can start building, not 8-10. And that's assuming a clean grant with no conditions that require written approval prior to commencement.

Lodgement date.
8 weeks for decision.
4 week appeal period.
2 weeks notice to Building Control.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Howdy folks,


Brother whipped up some very quick drawings. Builder was over today and had a look at them. Said they were great for what was needed, however, he advised I am likely to into issues with my roof design getting approved.

We chatted for a while about the several options available. He reckons I can put in for the planning with the roof idea I want, but if it get declined then I won't be starting the extension until next year as he's out the door with work on.

If it gets approved, he can start on mine then (he's assuming between 8-10 weeks for planning decision to take place).


So my three options are:

1) Go ahead with current design - 2 storey with tall roof, risk it being denied and be put back til next year for the work.
2) Go ahead with 2 storey extension with 'normal' roof and come back to the raised roof at a later date.
3) Build a single storey extension, and incorporate the floor of the 2nd storey into the roof. Return to the 2nd storey and raised roof at a later date.


I really want to get the ball rolling on this, so it means I may not bother with no. 1. And it kills me to build the 2nd storey and not do the raised roof. So my thinking now is to return to just doing a single storey (which requires no planning and can be started on sooner than later), and whilst that's being done, and knowing I'm under no massive pressure, I can work on putting together the planning for the 2nd storey and raised roof (and if it gets approved, return to it next year, if it gets declined, return to the 2nd storey/normal roof next year).


The downside here is I wanted the 2nd storey, and wont get it as soon as i'd like, but the upside I suppose is that I can choose to save up for a while longer and go from there so ive a bit mor emoney to throw at it when the time does come, or if i find that I'm happy enough with just a single storey, i can spend the money i would have used on the 2nd storey, on doing other things to the house (doors, skirting, architrave, new bathroom, knocking chimney breast, etc.).


So the thread has kinda completely moved off from what i was originally thinking. Which is a bit annoying/frustrating.

Firstly, as kceire points out, it takes minimum 12 weeks for planning (and I guarantee whatever drawing your brother has done in the last few days isn't enough for planning standards), and you'd still need to get the relevant maps, drainage info and newspaper notice, so you're talking minimum 1 week for your brother to get all that together and get the drawings up to planning standard (not knowing how good your brother is at drawing, but there's a lot of hours of work in scale drawing to planning standards, so I'd say 1 week at an absolute minimum, but likely more if he's just doing it in the evenings). You then need 2 weeks notice to Building Control before you start building. So at a minimum, provided you're not asked for further information or don't have to change anything on a condition on the granted planning, you're talking minimum 15 weeks. And even then, if you do apply for planning, you then need to submit construction drawings and calculations for compliance with Building Regs to Building Control which are different from planning drawings.

Secondly, the extra money you can save by only doing part of the work now and part next year will be largely taken up by building it in two stages rather than one. For instance, building single storey now, even though you may allow for the structural requirements for a second storey, you then have to include cost for opening up the single storey roof, protecting and repairing the existing internal finishes on ground floor, weathertightness, opening up of the structure, having to put back up scaffolding, the structural requirements of a single storey may be different (eg if you needed a ridge beam for the single storey roof, this would no longer be needed by going two-storey) etc. Plus construction costs rising annually at about 8-10%.

Thirdly, has your brother given the builder a sketch of what the finished build will look like? Because that wouldn't include specification of insulation, air-tightness details, structural requirements (eg. any steel required for creating new opes, foundation details) etc. Who will be signing off on the construction for compliance with Building Regs? You still need someone, whether you go for planning or not, to sign off for compliance with planning (which may just be confirming it's exempt from planning) and building regulations. This is vital should you ever try to sell the house, as it's the first thing any surveyor/solicitor will look for. You can't build single-storey now and build the second storey later without having a registered professional overseeing construction from the start (eg. foundations).