Overholding consequences

crashadder

Hi there,
No i am not a Landlord who is dealing with a non paying tenant. I am a tenant who just got served a notice of termination. Me and my room mate has signed a lease agreement about a year ago for this property and have been paying the rent on time ever since.(will continue to do so even theres a dispute). The notice as far as i can tell is perfectly valid and we now have 35 days to find a new accommodation which is fine. We sent an email to the agent asking for more time and help with finding new accommodation but we haven't heard from him yet. The reason we are asking for an additional month is simply because we will both be traveling the rest of May and will have about a week if not less to find a new place. We also asked for a reference letter but haven't received it either. My question is assuming we couldn't get any response from the agent/landlord or they turned our request down how bad would it be if we didnt vacate on time. I know how the system works here that the rules are in favor of the tenants but i would never do that to anyone. just a side note the apartment is in a better condition than the time we moved in. they haven't fixed anything. we took care of them ourselves. I am pretty damn sure we won't receive our deposit back too as we have paid it to the former landlord.

Samuel T. Cogley

You can't get advice on breaking the law here <mod snip>

crashadder

I am merely trying to understand if theres a grace period of some sort ( i am new in this country). I have no intention of breaking the law. hence the question.

Samuel T. Cogley

crashadder wrote: »

I am merely trying to understand if theres a grace period of some sort ( i am new in this country). I have no intention of breaking the law. hence the question.

No there is no grace period you have to move out on the date, but you have until midnight. Assuming valid notice etc.

the_syco

crashadder wrote: »

I am pretty damn sure we won't receive our deposit back too as we have paid it to the former landlord.

You're not breaking the lease; they are. So ensure you get it back. Heck, ask for confirmation that you'll be getting it before you move out!

crashadder

I highly doubt that. They didnt even fix the broken window glass when we spotted on the day of moving in and reported / took pictures of.

whatnext

If you have asked for the additional month in writing and they have not responded, and given you fear you will not get your deposit back, I'd drop them a letter by registered post stating that as you have not heard back from them that you are assuming they have accepted you request for a further month.

I'm pretty sure they'll be on the phone sharp enough and you'll be able to negotiate a reasonable solution.

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

Hi there,
The notice as far as i can tell is perfectly valid and we now have 35 days to find a new accommodation which is fine. d.

You should get someone who is an expert to advise on the Noticve of Termination. There are a few specialist barristers and solicitors who can find faults in them that others can't. people in Tyrellstown were told that their notices were fine but when they brought in a couple of barristers the notices turned out to be invalid.

davindub

crashadder wrote: »

Hi there,
No i am not a Landlord who is dealing with a non paying tenant. I am a tenant who just got served a notice of termination. Me and my room mate has signed a lease agreement about a year ago for this property and have been paying the rent on time ever since.(will continue to do so even theres a dispute). The notice as far as i can tell is perfectly valid and we now have 35 days to find a new accommodation which is fine. We sent an email to the agent asking for more time and help with finding new accommodation but we haven't heard from him yet. The reason we are asking for an additional month is simply because we will both be traveling the rest of May and will have about a week if not less to find a new place. We also asked for a reference letter but haven't received it either. My question is assuming we couldn't get any response from the agent/landlord or they turned our request down how bad would it be if we didnt vacate on time. I know how the system works here that the rules are in favor of the tenants but i would never do that to anyone. just a side note the apartment is in a better condition than the time we moved in. they haven't fixed anything. we took care of them ourselves. I am pretty damn sure we won't receive our deposit back too as we have paid it to the former landlord.

You would be better to work within the law, there are only specific circumstances you can be served a notice of termination, look up threshold and RTB.

GGTrek

whatnext wrote: »

If you have asked for the additional month in writing and they have not responded, and given you fear you will not get your deposit back, I'd drop them a letter by registered post stating that as you have not heard back from them that you are assuming they have accepted you request for a further month.

I'm pretty sure they'll be on the phone sharp enough and you'll be able to negotiate a reasonable solution.

My suggestion to OP. The course of action suggested in the quoted text above is very reasonable one AFTER you call the agent on the phone. An email is a very impersonal way of communicating.
Any reasonable landlord would agree to a month delay (I always agree to negotiate with tenants if their requests are reasonable like in the OP case) unless there were very serious breaches or an emergency situation.

crashadder

GGTrek wrote: »

My suggestion to OP. The course of action suggested in the quoted text above is very reasonable one AFTER you call the agent on the phone. An email is a very impersonal way of communicating.
Any reasonable landlord would agree to a month delay (I always agree to negotiate with tenants if their requests are reasonable like in the OP case) unless there were very serious breaches or an emergency situation.

I totally agree. I want both side to be happy. Email is actually LL's preferred method of communication and we have been calling him too but he hasnt returned any of the calls. This is quite annoying now cause we attended two viewings today and one of them is actually in the development we currently live. But i wont be able to provide landlord reference letter which is required until tomorrow morning. If i were in his shoes i would help my tenants .

crashadder

davindub wrote: »

You would be better to work within the law, there are only specific circumstances you can be served a notice of termination, look up threshold and RTB.

I actually looked it up and they are selling the property so i guess it is one of those circumstances.

GGTrek

crashadder wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

My suggestion to OP. The course of action suggested in the quoted text above is very reasonable one AFTER you call the agent on the phone. An email is a very impersonal way of communicating.
Any reasonable landlord would agree to a month delay (I always agree to negotiate with tenants if their requests are reasonable like in the OP case) unless there were very serious breaches or an emergency situation.

I totally agree. I want both side to be happy. Email is actually LL's preferred method of communication and we have been calling him too but he hasnt returned any of the calls. This is quite annoying now cause we attended two viewings today and one of them is actually in the development we currently live. But i wont be able to provide landlord reference letter which is required until tomorrow morning. If i were in his shoes i would help my tenants .

It is then time to urgently send the registered letter as the previous poster suggested to get the full attention from landlord and agent. Raise also the question of the deposit and the lack of reference letter. Nothing worse than a landlord that stops communication with tenants or viceversa: communication is the core of any business relationship.

davo10

crashadder wrote: »

I actually looked it up and they are selling the property so i guess it is one of those circumstances.

Who would be a landlord.

Why give a reference before a tenant moves out? You give one saying they are the best tenants in the world, then they overhold because they can't get a new place to live.

Biggest consequence of overholding, absolutely no chance of a reference, and in a market which demands it, little chance of a LL renting to you in future.

crashadder

davo10 wrote: »

Who would be a landlord.

Why give a reference before a tenant moves out? You give one saying they are the best tenants in the world, then they overhold because they can't get a new place to live.

well the reference letter will state that we have rented their property and that all rent and bills were paid etc. which are facts. so i dont see why not

davo10

crashadder wrote: »

well the reference letter will state that we have rented their property and that all rent and bills were paid etc. which are facts. so i dont see why not

But you are contemplating overholding. What happens if you get the reference, then hold for months until you get another property, all the while having the benefit of a good reference?

crashadder

Biggest consequence of overholding, absolutely no chance of a reference, and in a market which demands it, little chance of a LL renting to you in future.[/QUOTE]

So what do you suggest i do ? move out check in to a hotel and go to viewings everyday god knows for how long while trying to go to work and travel ?

athtrasna

The issue surely is that you signed a fixed term lease. Unless that has a break clause, neither party is entitled to break it, even if the LL is selling the property. So you would have to mutually agree to terminating the lease early.

davo10

crashadder wrote: »

Biggest consequence of overholding, absolutely no chance of a reference, and in a market which demands it, little chance of a LL renting to you in future.

So what do you suggest i do ? move out check in to a hotel and go to viewings everyday god knows for how long while trying to go to work and travel ?[/quote]

That is the way it works, you have 35 days to find somewhere to live, maybe postpone the travel.

When does/did your lease end?

crashadder

davo10 wrote: »

So what do you suggest i do ? move out check in to a hotel and go to viewings everyday god knows for how long while trying to go to work and travel ?

That is the way it works, you have 35 days to find somewhere to live, maybe postpone the travel.

When does/did your lease end?[/QUOTE]
My lease ends on July 1st . You just said the market demands reference letter and you expect me to find accomodation without one ? well its a chicken and egg situation innit ?. Besides i spend nearly 10 days of every month travelling . thats part of my job. This May is an exception as i am travelling even more.

Browney7

First thing is to make sure the termination is valid - check this out here www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Do you have a statutory declaration from landlord? If not, it will buy you time but look for somewhere else anyway. Do not accept the LL keeping your deposit

crashadder

Browney7 wrote: »

First thing is to make sure the termination is valid - check this out here www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Do you have a statutory declaration from landlord? If not, it will buy you time but look for somewhere else anyway. Do not accept the LL keeping your deposit

The problem with the deposit is that we paid it to the former landlord who couldnt afford the mortgage . the new receiver probably dont have it. I dont know if i should have done something when the receiver changed but i didnt.
P.S I have statuotory declaration of intention to sell

davo10

crashadder wrote: »

That is the way it works, you have 35 days to find somewhere to live, maybe postpone the travel.

When does/did your lease end?

My lease ends on July 1st . You just said the market demands reference letter and you expect me to find accomodation without one ? well its a chicken and egg situation innit ?. Besides i spend nearly 10 days of every month travelling . thats part of my job. This May is an exception as i am travelling even more.[/quote]

Can a notice of termination be served before a lease ends?

davindub

davo10 wrote: »

My lease ends on July 1st . You just said the market demands reference letter and you expect me to find accomodation without one ? well its a chicken and egg situation innit ?. Besides i spend nearly 10 days of every month travelling . thats part of my job. This May is an exception as i am travelling even more.

Can a notice of termination be served before a lease ends?[/QUOTE]

Yes it can but you have part 4 rights so the lease end date is really immaterial to you.

Sorry just seen the intention to sell. There is a fair bit of commentary on this, it is intend to sell within 3 months, not put on the market. You can certainly question the intention and appeal the termination.

davo10

davindub wrote: »

Can a notice of termination be served before a lease ends?

Yes it can but you have part 4 rights so the lease end date is really immaterial to you.

What was the reason stated for terminating the tenancy?[/quote]

Op said he has 35 days to leave but lease doesn't end until July?

You can't be evicted until fixed lease is over, but I'm not sure if last day of notice can coincide with last day of fixed term, or whether notice can only be served on day fixed lease ends.

crashadder

Apologies checked again the lease ends June 1st

davo10

crashadder wrote: »

Apologies checked again the lease ends June 1st

Therefore end of notice is after end of fixed term, someone more knowledgeable will hopefully advise on whether notice begins after end of term.

davindub

Something funny going on with the quote button...

You can give notice during the fixed term lease, but Davo is right, it cannot to be effected before the fixed term expiry.

My point with checking on the intent to sell, it is something that is likely to be abused. I would certainly need to be convinced if I received one myself. If I felt the LL was not in a position to close the sale within 3 months, I would appeal the notice.

crashadder

I looked it up and have found this
"If the property is being sold
If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months of the termination of your tenancy, the notice of termination must state that “The reason for the termination of the tenancy is due to the fact that the landlord intends to sell the dwelling, for full consideration, within 3 months after the termination of the tenancy”.

The notice i received doesnt use the word "sell" but instead it states "The landlord intends within 3 months after the termination of the tenancy under this section to enter into and enforceable agreement for the transfer to another for full consideration of the whole of his or her interest in the dwelling or the property contatining the dwelling"
It might be the same meaning though.

crashadder

davo10 wrote: »

But you are contemplating overholding. What happens if you get the reference, then hold for months until you get another property, all the while having the benefit of a good reference?

I have no intention of overholding , on the contrary i am trying to avoid that. I even told him that its ok if potential buyers wants to view the apartment. Landlords / agents do check references by calling them anyway. So he can always revoke that letter easily.

davindub

crashadder wrote: »

I looked it up and have found this
"If the property is being sold
If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months of the termination of your tenancy, the notice of termination must state that “The reason for the termination of the tenancy is due to the fact that the landlord intends to sell the dwelling, for full consideration, within 3 months after the termination of the tenancy”.

The notice i received doesnt use the word "sell" but instead it states "The landlord intends within 3 months after the termination of the tenancy under this section to enter into and enforceable agreement for the transfer to another for full consideration of the whole of his or her interest in the dwelling or the property contatining the dwelling"
It might be the same meaning though.

Yes, it nearly means the same. But I would question that notice, it is worded differently for a reason and thinking critically, I would be under the impression that:

1. The sale is not of the full interest - there is no method to end a tenancy if selling your share of a property.
2. The sale is of the apartment complex freehold, not the leaseholds of the specific apartment you are in.
3. They googled a template online.

I would also be watching out that the statutory declaration was witnessed by a solicitor.

There was a HC case where the judge discussed "intent to sell", it was explained that putting the property on the market was not enough to demonstrate that a sale can be completed within 3 months. I would look for evidence of this.

Overall, I would recommend a visit to threshold, they operate a free service and can look into the validity of the notice served.

crashadder

Overall, I would recommend a visit to threshold, they operate a free service and can look into the validity of the notice served.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

Overall, I would recommend a visit to threshold, they operate a free service and can look into the validity of the notice served.

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?[/QUOTE]

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.

davo10

4ensic15 wrote: »

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.[/quote]

What about the reference? Do you think the op will be able to rent again?

Sometimes it helps to see the wood for the trees.

4ensic15

davo10 wrote: »

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.

What about the reference? Do you think the op will be able to rent again?

Sometimes it helps to see the wood from the trees.[/QUOTE]

The o/p will not be getting a reference no matter what happens. His landlord is in receivership.

crashadder

The o/p will not be getting a reference no matter what happens. His landlord is in receivership.

How do you mean ?

padd b1975

I would seriously consider changing my travel plans if I was you.
You really don't want to find yourself in the worst case scenario of having such a narrow window for finding alternative accommodation coupled with possibly a less than perfect reference from your last landlord.

Ms Doubtfire1

crashadder wrote: »

Hi there,
No i am not a Landlord who is dealing with a non paying tenant. I am a tenant who just got served a notice of termination. Me and my room mate has signed a lease agreement about a year ago for this property and have been paying the rent on time ever since.(will continue to do so even theres a dispute). The notice as far as i can tell is perfectly valid and we now have 35 days to find a new accommodation which is fine. We sent an email to the agent asking for more time and help with finding new accommodation but we haven't heard from him yet. The reason we are asking for an additional month is simply because we will both be traveling the rest of May and will have about a week if not less to find a new place. We also asked for a reference letter but haven't received it either. My question is assuming we couldn't get any response from the agent/landlord or they turned our request down how bad would it be if we didnt vacate on time. I know how the system works here that the rules are in favor of the tenants but i would never do that to anyone. just a side note the apartment is in a better condition than the time we moved in. they haven't fixed anything. we took care of them ourselves. I am pretty damn sure we won't receive our deposit back too as we have paid it to the former landlord.

Woah...this thread is confusing.

1) they cannot terminate a fixed lease before termination date of the lease
2) open a case with the RTB - as your LL who got the deposit is now in receivership, you need to ensure you get your deposit back- the tenancy board can help with that.
3) sit tight until you hear from the board - go for adjuration, not mediation -you need a binding decision and something that can be enforced
4) no, you won't get a LL reference as the LL is in receivership. you can however proof that with the right documents.If the LL is a company, receivership can be looked up in courts.That should help

5) don't over hold as such - but once you have opened a dispute case with the RTB you are legally entitled to stay in the property (but do pay your rent)

crashadder

Woah...this thread is confusing.


4) no, you won't get a LL reference as the LL is in receivership. you can however proof that with the right documents.If the LL is a company, receivership can be looked up in courts.That should help

Thanks for your response. But i don't think i understand what "LL is in receivership" actually means.

Ms Doubtfire1

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

crashadder

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

sorry i am not really familiar with these terms. Yes thats what happened(i guess). we were 4 months into the lease and one day received a letter saying that the receiver has changed and that they are the ones we needed to pay the rent to. There were a lot of ambiguity at that time but we ended up complying and paying the rent to the new receiver.(landlord didnt have a clue about the new receiver asked us to hold off on paying the rent ) They didnt carry out their duties (repair etc) and we never discussed deposit. last month we received a letter from a party who claimed to have aquired our furniture and fittings and asked us to contact them if we want to keep them :-) Its been nothing but pain for us.

Ms Doubtfire1

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

crashadder

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

We payed the deposit to the agent of the landlord and its stated in the contract. We didnt sign a new contract with the new receiver.

Ms Doubtfire1

crashadder wrote: »

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

We payed the deposit to the agent of the landlord and its stated in the contract. We didnt sign a new contract with the new receiver.

ok - RTB and fast.

crashadder

So i will need to file a dispute but what will i basically appeal ?

btw the letter we received for the furniture and fittings is this one :-)

we have purchased the entire furniture and fittings of your apartment we have been in touch with x (receiver over property)
but they have not engaged with us
we now wish to advise you of our intention to collect our goods and hereby give you 14 day notice of same
we are also prepared to offer you the opportunity to enter a Rental agreement with us for the furniture and fittings
Please revert to us within 7 days.

Ms Doubtfire1

lol. Tell them you are renting furnished and can not surrender any of the furnishings or fittings unless instructed to do so by the owner of the apartment. You can't hand out what's not your - it would be enabling theft.

Ms Doubtfire1

you appeal the notice. ( you can't receive a notice form someone you have no contract with) you complain the obligations of the Ll were not adhered to. receivers are usually acting on behalf of a bank or a large company.They are probably trying to get you out so i'd make their life miserable - you need your deposit back. if you want more advice, pm me.:-)

davo10

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

you appeal the notice. ( you can't receive a notice form someone you have no contract with) you complain the obligations of the Ll were not adhered to. receivers are usually acting on behalf of a bank or a large company.They are probably trying to get you out so i'd make their life miserable - you need your deposit back. if you want more advice, pm me.:-)

The tenancy is uneffected by the change of ownership, the ops fixed term lease still applies so the op does have a contract with the new property owner.

4ensic15

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

Receivership and bankruptcy are completely different. A receiver can appointed under a mortgage which is in default. The owner may well be solvent. Neither the original landlord or the receiver will bother giving the o/p a reference. The o/p needs proper advice and not from threshold or citizens advice.

crashadder

Receivership and bankruptcy are completely different. A receiver can appointed under a mortgage which is in default. The owner may well be solvent. Neither the original landlord or the receiver will bother giving the o/p a reference. The o/p needs proper advice and not from threshold or citizens advice.

what is the big deal about giving a lousy letter anyway ? If they want me gone they better be writing it .

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

what is the big deal about giving a lousy letter anyway ? If they want me gone they better be writing it .

Why, what will you do if they tell you to go jump?