Inappropriate stuff with 5 year olds.

steloide

We have a big problem, to big to blurt out in the first post so i try and keep it short and to the point of facts.

My 5 year old girl told us about a boy in her class the rubbed her Inappropriately. She told the teacher but we were not informed by the school so we brought it up and that we needed to be informed in the future of possible other things that could happen.
A few weeks later something similar happened and my daughter told the teacher, LATER that day we were informed. The next day my partner was asked by the teacher to come into the school. They were discussing a plan to keep our child safe till the principal burst in and said to my partner that everything was wonderful bla bla bla and the mother of the other child was distraught bla bla and everything was nice and not to be worried and the mother of the other child was distraught and everything will be ok bla bla bla (Our names were GUESSED by the other parents.

We asked for a meeting from the principal and teacher involved, during the meeting the principal let it slip that the other parents involved knew about the our meeting. We were made feel that the other party were the schools priority and this is not an issue and certainly not a welfare issue so we asked for a safety planing writing. We were asked to put in writing what we wanted and the principal would call a meeting with the chairperson of the board of management (as all members were not available) this would determine the out come.

We received a letter in response to our requests that.......basically says......Tusla do not see this as a welfare issue ATM and the principaland school are doing their best as a school for all children and GOD will help sort all this out.
Noting about a safety plan nothing about a welfare issue........

This is a shortened version as you can imagine and we need some advice please!!!!!!

silverharp

not a professional opinion but just as a parent I'd say don't try to blow it out of all proportion. No doubt the other parents are probably quite embarrassed about the whole thing and have given their son a good talking to about his behaviour not being appropriate. From your daughter's perspective you don't want her overly upset because all the adults around her are freaking out. Personally I'd just focus on teaching your daughter to be generally assertive in such a situation and in particular with this boy

jimmycrackcorm

Given this involves two 5 year olds I think the school are taking the correct approach.

Ann22

I'd imagine he's just curious and perhaps he's doing it with other little ones too. At least the teachers are aware of it now and your little one was wise enough and trusted you enough to tell you. Try not to worry. I'd say his parents are mortified!

seamus

^^
As silverharp says.

Remember that they're 5, not 15. Your daughter isn't being sexually assaulted, at least not in the way that we understand it as adults. The behaviour is inappropriate, but there's no malice intended and the child is not fully aware of what he's doing (or even why he's doing it).

As far as I can tell from your posts, the school are now aware of it, the parents of the other child are aware of it (and probably mortified), Tusla have been contacted and are aware of it, so there's not much else to be done...yet.

I understand the request for a safety plan and a welfare plan, but that may be a bit OTT at this point in time. The child isn't proving himself a danger as yet. Be vigilant, ensure your daughter understands that she can and must come to you and tell you about any further incidents, regardless of who else she has told. Give the parents of the other child an opportunity to correct his behaviour.

If it happens again, even once, then I would move onto forcing a safety plan, or insisting that your child (or the other child) is moved into a different class, and so forth.

If it does happen again, I would also independently go to Tusla. Sexualised behaviour which seems out-of-kilter for the maturity level of the child is a big red flag that a child is being sexually abused or otherwise exposed to adult situations which they cannot comprehend. If this boy continues to conduct himself inappropriately then I'd be blowing the whistle directly with Tusla myself.

eviltwin

For a 5 yr old this kind of thing is normal. Its not sexual assault and you need to be careful about how you talk around your daughter so she does not take from this experience that she was violated in any way.

Obviously its not appropriate for the boy to do this and that is something that will need to be addressed by his parents and the school. He also needs to be dealt with in a way that he learns how to behave without having a sex pest label on his head.

TUSLA are right not to escalate it, its within the boundries of normal behaviour for a child that age. As has been mentioned focus on your daughter and empowering her to be able to say No or Stop when someone tries to touch her in a way that she does not like. There is a really good resource called the Underwear rule you can find online that teaches kids about what is okay and not okay, it might be a good idea to show it to her.

silverharp

one more thing to add, don't view the other parents as being some kind of opposition here especially if this is all forgotten about by next term, your kid will probably be in the same class for the next 6 years so you should be "collegial" with them, after all as a group of parents you all have the same goals, last thing you want is a series of awkward encounters at school events and kids parties over the next 6 years.

byhookorbycrook

Not knowing exactly what you mean, I may be underestimating what happened, but i will say that based on your initial posting, I think you may be reading more into what occurred. Both children are 5, if it were an older child, I'd be very concerned and if whatever happened re-occurs, I'd also be very concerned.

But for now, I think you need to sit tight , rather than panicking, the teacher school and other parent/s are all aware of what happened. Tusla have even been notified, the school are being quite proactive by doing so. Try to keep your daughter from seeing your concern. Re-enforce with her that if someone bothers her, she should , as is taught in the Stay Safe Programme, say in a loud voice "Stop" , get away and tell an adult. That's for any form of physical bullying as well, so just come at it from the point of that, rather than focusing on the incident that occurred.

steloide

Thanks for all the advice and majority seem to say "not such a big deal" but I should have included the details.
So the first time this happened could have been seen as curiosity but the second incident was a rough rub in the private area with a soft toy then he hugged the toy and rubbed it on his on private, my little girl thought it was discussing and was quite upset about it. He is also cause other kids in the class some distraught and he spends more time in at break time due to his behavior.
So the principal has been dropping hints that our child might be making things up. The principal was also caught lying. (she said my child had done something in class and the teacher in the class said it never happened) I also think she with held info from Tusla.

tabby aspreme

Regarding the response letter you received, did it come from Tusla, or the Principal / Board of management

Owryan

Who referred it to TUSLA? How long between the referral and getting a reply?

Inappropriate sexual contact would be child protection rather than child welfare. There could be a concern that if the other child is aware of the "sexual" nature of his actions there could be more to it. But a quick assessment could rule out abuse and given the young ages it might be considered best if the school deals wit it and monitors the childs behaviour.

steloide

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Regarding the response letter you received, did it come from Tusla, or the Principal / Board of management

It's signed the chairperson of the BOM. As all members were not available!!

steloide

Owryan wrote: »

Who referred it to TUSLA? How long between the referral and getting a reply?

Inappropriate sexual contact would be child protection rather than child welfare. There could be a concern that if the other child is aware of the "sexual" nature of his actions there could be more to it. But a quick assessment could rule out abuse and given the young ages it might be considered best if the school deals wit it and monitors the childs behaviour.

We met on Tuesday and requested a safety plan in writing, we were then asked on the Thursday to put a letter together for the BOM meeting the next Tuesday outlining what we wanted to happen. The principal contacted Tusla on the Friday but we believe she did not give all information out lined in our meeting the previous Tuesday.
I doubt this little child knows what's happening but something is going on for him and the school seem to want to push that under the mat

Peregrinus

1. As others have said, don't "awfulize" this. Your child will be much more traumatised if she senses that you are distressed or panicked about what has happened to her than she will be by the contact itself.

2. Absolutely make sure that your child feels that she can talk to you about anything that worries her or that she does not understand, and that if she does she can be confident you will not turn it into a drama for her.

3. The school is right to focus on the other child involved. Your child is not harmed by what has happened to her. The concern is that the other child has not yet learned appropriate boundaries for his behaviour but, at five, that's not necessarily indicative of a deeper problem.

4. You do suggest that he has other behavioural issues as well, so, yeah, this may be a child who needs extra guidance and monitoring. But he's not your child, and details of any arrangements made for extra monitoring, extra support or extra investigation will not be shared with you.

5. No offence, but some of what you say suggest you are going a bit off the deep end here. You comment, for example, that the response letter you received was signed by the chairman of the BOM as though that was in some way surprising or unsatisfactory. It's not; it's perfectly normal for decisions or actions of boards or committees to be communicated by a letter signed by just one person - the chairperson or the secretary, typically. Likewise you say that you "were made to feel that the other party was the school's priority" but, if you think about it, it the other party should be their priority. If there is a more serious problem her than late acquisition of appropriate social boundaries, it's not your daughter's problem; if action is needed, it's needed with respect to the other child involved.

_Brian

steloide wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice and majority seem to say "not such a big deal" but I should have included the details.
So the first time this happened could have been seen as curiosity but the second incident was a rough rub in the private area with a soft toy then he hugged the toy and rubbed it on his on private, my little girl thought it was discussing and was quite upset about it. He is also cause other kids in the class some distraught and he spends more time in at break time due to his behavior.
So the principal has been dropping hints that our child might be making things up. The principal was also caught lying. (she said my child had done something in class and the teacher in the class said it never happened) I also think she with held info from Tusla.

I wouldn't like the sounds of what you describe there, that's more than curiosity.

Look, I'm going to go against the general tone here, it seems your gut feeling is thisnt right and isn't being handled correctly, with all respect to the school and BOM no one will have your child's interest at heart like you. If you feel this needs more action then do it. If it turns out to be nothing then it will pass, but if it turns out to be more and you do nothing you will be distraught.

steloide

_Brian wrote: »

I wouldn't like the sounds of what you describe there, that's more than curiosity.

Look, I'm going to go against the general tone here, it seems your gut feeling is thisnt right and isn't being handled correctly, with all respect to the school and BOM no one will have your child's interest at heart like you. If you feel this needs more action then do it. If it turns out to be nothing then it will pass, but if it turns out to be more and you do nothing you will be distraught.

It's gone out of proportion now. Originally we wanted the school to deal with this quietly, keep it from happening again to our girl and to get the help needed for that little boy.(to find out what he is going through, if anything)
Now my understanding was, if policy and procedures were followed this should have went smoothly. It also states that priority be given to the child that made the allegation (our child) it also states the a referral be made stating the allegation to Tusla.
None of these were followed and now it has turned into a problem, as in we are the problem so let's disgrace them and hopefully they will shut up. I know these words are dramatic but thats what is happening.
"The school have never ever had a problem like this before" they never had any bullying reports or children using bad language in the time that principal is in charge?

Owryan

steloide wrote: »

We met on Tuesday and requested a safety plan in writing, we were then asked on the Thursday to put a letter together for the BOM meeting the next Tuesday outlining what we wanted to happen. The principal contacted Tusla on the Friday but we believe she did not give all information out lined in our meeting the previous Tuesday.
I doubt this little child knows what's happening but something is going on for him and the school seem to want to push that under the mat

If you are that concerned for the other child and know something is going on why don't you make your own referral to TUSLA?

eviltwin

What do you want to happen OP?

munchkin_utd

jesus, the child is 5. They are plain daft.

Sure my wee fella (5) has some notion in his head that putting his hand down the back of my trousers is funny. Of course because I reacted he thinks its gas craic and now its a "thing" so to speak.

I have a friend whose daughter was fascinated with peeing (i think more 3/4 than 5), and found men peeing through their willies a gas thing altogether, so much so that she followed her dad to the toilet to watch him at it !

so for the other wee 5 year old, I dont know what he did, but at that age you cannot really project it to teenager or adult behaviour.

I also amn't sure what you are looking for, because making this official with Tusla brings it into child welfare/ child abuse territory and bureaucracy and paperwork and following processes with inspectors and reports and god knows what, and is really the polar opposite of your wish for it to be dealt with quietly.

steloide

The mad thing is we didn't do anything, only ask for a meeting and plan to sort this issue. We didn't do anything wrong!!!. My child didn't do anything wrong. So why is it that the school and it's staff and the BOM are treating us like we did something wrong??????

byhookorbycrook

How do you feel the school and BOM are treating you badly?You asked for a meeting with teacher and principal and got it. Tusla were involved, which means that the chairperson of the BOM would be informed.

steloide

steloide wrote: »

The mad thing is we didn't do anything, only ask for a meeting and plan to sort this issue. We didn't do anything wrong!!!. My child didn't do anything wrong. So why is it that the school and it's staff and the BOM are treating us like we did something wrong??????

Why do you feel they are treating you like you did wrong?
What exactly are they doing?

PokeHerKing

steloide wrote:

The mad thing is we didn't do anything, only ask for a meeting and plan to sort this issue. We didn't do anything wrong!!!. My child didn't do anything wrong. So why is it that the school and it's staff and the BOM are treating us like we did something wrong??????

I think you need to ease up on the punctuation marks.

I understand it's your child so I'm not trying to sound harsh but you sound like you blew this out of proportion from the get go. Your OP reads like a 14yo girl wrote it.

Nothing has actually happened here. Kids are kids. Tell your kid to try stay away from the other kid.

Save the drama for real issues.

Big Bag of Chips

Regardless of what you believe should happen the school CAN NOT discuss anything that is happening with the other child with you. So whilst you might think its being "brushed under the carpet" I can think it most certainly is not. Not if the BOM and Tusla are involved.

Your child was upset by something, and now is not (I hope). So your child is 'ok' and is not a priority now. Finding out if the other child is at risk of any inappropriate treatment is, and after some investigation it seems they believe he's not. But I can guarantee you he will be observed more closely from now on for any signs.

But, you will not be made aware of anything. You won't be kept informed. You won't be updated. You won't be contacted again.

There is nothing more the school can offer you. I don't know what's happening to make you feel like you and your family are being wronged, your posts are quite confused. It's not clear what is direct quotes from the school and what is your interpretation of the situation. But, your daughter is ok. If there are any further investigations to be done with regards this boy that will all be kept confidential and between the school and his parents.

They are not telling you any more, because there is nothing more you need to be told.

muttnjeff

because they are both five years old Tusla will take no action. Their advice is to let the school deal with this incident, and to keep a written record.The school have spoken with both parents and as far as telling the whole board-this will not happen. Children will not be named to the board as there are parents on the board. All the principal has to say to the board is 'there has been an incident reported to Tusla' no other information will be given to members of the board. This is correct procedure. That is why only the chairperson and principal is communicating with you.

However you dont know what is happening as regards the boy. His behaviour as described further by you is of concern because it is not age appropriate. There will be a detailed report on this boy and his interactions with other pupils will be closely monitored. you probably wont be told any of this but believe me he will be watched like a hawk. There may be a child protection/abuse issues with him.I dont care how 'mortified' his parents are.

Meanwhile I would chat with my daughter as advised about 'touches and secrets'-see the stay safe programme and If she were mine I would tell her to give that young lad a kick on the shins if he touches her again on her private parts and to run away and tell. This is a lesson for life, no matter what age she is there are situations in life when a polite 'no,stop' is not enough. A good kick in the shins will send a loud clear message.

steloide

ObvIously 'm not giving a clear picture of the events. Sorry everyone.
Maybe It's really an event that has to be lived. There is a good bit of lying and hush hush around the whole thing with the principal and the chairperson of the BOM. These are the only 2 people involved

Big Bag of Chips

There's no 'hush hush' though. In any child protection issue people are told on a 'need to know' basis. Only the people who need to be told, are told. And that's usually 2 people. The person who the incident was reported to/witnessed by, and the child protection officer. This is to minimise any embarrassment felt by the child, and to minimise victimisation of the child.

It's not hush hush. It's policy. Would you prefer it was discussed widely and a 5 year old child be made an example of?

muttnjeff

steloide wrote: »

ObvIously 'm not giving a clear picture of the events. Sorry everyone.
Maybe It's really an event that has to be lived. There is a good bit of lying and hush hush around the whole thing with the principal and the chairperson of the BOM. These are the only 2 people involved

It will be kept 'Hush hush' as you call it because there is a child protection issue. The child at issue is the boy. Your child was involved in the incidents that highlighted this little boy. As said above he is being carefully investigated/watched. Your daughted will be fine and you will hear no more because all of it will be strictly confidential.

Its not a nice situation to have been involved be in.

steloide

muttnjeff wrote: »

because they are both five years old Tusla will take no action. Their advice is to let the school deal with this incident, and to keep a written record.The school have spoken with both parents and as far as telling the whole board-this will not happen. Children will not be named to the board as there are parents on the board. All the principal has to say to the board is 'there has been an incident reported to Tusla' no other information will be given to members of the board. This is correct procedure. That is why only the chairperson and principal is communicating with you.

However you dont know what is happening as regards the boy. His behaviour as described further by you is of concern because it is not age appropriate. There will be a detailed report on this boy and his interactions with other pupils will be closely monitored. you probably wont be told any of this but believe me he will be watched like a hawk. There may be a child protection/abuse issues with him.I dont care how 'mortified' his parents are.

Meanwhile I would chat with my daughter as advised about 'touches and secrets'-see the stay safe programme and If she were mine I would tell her to give that young lad a kick on the shins if he touches her again on her private parts and to run away and tell. This is a lesson for life, no matter what age she is there are situations in life when a polite 'no,stop' is not enough. A good kick in the shins will send a loud clear message.

Best advice yet. Its hard to see a clear picture. My own brother gave similar advice so I reckon I'll go with it.

muttnjeff

Big Bag of chips got there before me;)

steloide

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

There's no 'hush hush' though. In any child protection issue people are told on a 'need to know' basis. Only the people who need to be told, are told. And that's usually 2 people. The person who the incident was reported to/witnessed by, and the child protection officer. This is to minimise any embarrassment felt by the child, and to minimise victimisation of the child.

It's not hush hush. It's policy. Would you prefer it was discussed widely and a 5 year old child be made an example of?

Not at all. But our meeting and names and our child's name was used by the principal to the other parants. Is that normal?

Victor

I would be concerned about how the other child learned this behaviour.

steloide wrote: »

It's signed the chairperson of the BOM.

Is this the parish priest?

Big Bag of Chips

Yes! Their child did something that caused upset to another child. You knew their child did it to your child. They know their child did it to your child. They would have been told that you came in to discuss it. They would have been told in general terms what happened. Much like you were.

But the specifics, regarding their child (the 'problem') will be kept between them. Same way as if you went back to the principal with specific issues your child was displaying after this it would be kept between you and the principal/chairman too.

BorneTobyWilde

''and GOD will help sort all this out.''

That's the bit I'd be worried about. This Cunttry needs to leave religion at the door when it comes to education.

Owryan

steloide wrote: »

ObvIously 'm not giving a clear picture of the events. Sorry everyone.
Maybe It's really an event that has to be lived. There is a good bit of lying and hush hush around the whole thing with the principal and the chairperson of the BOM. These are the only 2 people involved

You didn't want to make a big deal of it and wanted it kept quiet. But are complaining only 2 people are involved. You also suggested that something untoward is going on with the other child but didn't say if you reported your concerns.

If tusla were notified by the school and had no concerns then that's all you need to know. You have no right to be informed of anything in relation to the other child. Children are only 5 so best action is to deal with it and move on. Leave the school to do the rest

Annasopra

steloide wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice and majority seem to say "not such a big deal" but I should have included the details.
So the first time this happened could have been seen as curiosity but the second incident was a rough rub in the private area with a soft toy then he hugged the toy and rubbed it on his on private, my little girl thought it was discussing and was quite upset about it. He is also cause other kids in the class some distraught and he spends more time in at break time due to his behavior.
So the principal has been dropping hints that our child might be making things up. The principal was also caught lying. (she said my child had done something in class and the teacher in the class said it never happened) I also think she with held info from Tusla.

What basis have you to think she withheld information from Tusla?

Spon Farmer

steloide wrote: »

The mad thing is we didn't do anything, only ask for a meeting and plan to sort this issue. We didn't do anything wrong!!!. My child didn't do anything wrong. So why is it that the school and it's staff and the BOM are treating us like we did something wrong??????

I don't anytime about TUSLA, BOM's, etc, nor do I know how the school should react or what they should do,

I do however, think think that the forum members telling you to stop "overreacting", they are "only 5 year olds", etc. are just about the daftest bunch of people imaginable.

No matter the age or intent, of course you are going to be upset. This is your daughter, for goodness sake, and what has happened is not pleasant. And it did not stop.

I do not understand the process behind sorting it all out, so all I can say is remember that it will al pass from your daughter's memory fairly quickly so the less se is aware of the meetings, the better.

And also remember, the boy in question is also innocent. He could not possibly understand what he is doing and no doubt picked it up from someplace else. Perhaps he saw something on Youtube or the TV, or he walked in on his parents. It may be something as innocent as that.

The school needs to look after both children and put your mind at ease. Would it not be best if you and your boyfriend met the parents?

A stressful situation to sure, but is it good that your daughter told you. I hope it all works out for you all.

Annasopra

steloide wrote: »

Not at all. But our meeting and names and our child's name was used by the principal to the other parants. Is that normal?

Which parents?

steloide

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Which parents?

The parents of the little boy and the chairperson of BOM knew as do all other teachers. It's a small community.

steloide

Spon Farmer wrote: »

I don't anytime about TUSLA, BOM's, etc, nor do I know how the school should react or what they should do,

I do however, think think that the forum members telling you to stop "overreacting", they are "only 5 year olds", etc. are just about the daftest bunch of people imaginable.

No matter the age or intent, of course you are going to be upset. This is your daughter, for goodness sake, and what has happened is not pleasant. And it did not stop.

I do not understand the process behind sorting it all out, so all I can say is remember that it will al pass from your daughter's memory fairly quickly so the less se is aware of the meetings, the better.

And also remember, the boy in question is also innocent. He could not possibly understand what he is doing and no doubt picked it up from someplace else. Perhaps he saw something on Youtube or the TV, or he walked in on his parents. It may be something as innocent as that.

The school needs to look after both children and put your mind at ease. Would it not be best if you and your boyfriend met the parents?

A stressful situation to sure, but is it good that your daughter told you. I hope it all works out for you all.

We thought about meeting the parents but the husband is a little odd and I don't get a good gut feeling. The wife seems nice and I have a feeling she has a connection with the principal.

byhookorbycrook

steloide wrote: »

The parents of the little boy and the chairperson of BOM knew as do all other teachers. It's a small community.

Of course the parents of the boy know, why on earth would they not be told about what you consider to be a very, very serious issue involving their son and Tusla have been informed?

As to the chairperson, you yourself stated that the other BOM members weren't available, as if this somehow was the fault of the scool and now, you didn't want any BOM involvement?

As any parent would, you do not want the incident to re-occur and you wanted some kind of procedure put in place - how is the school to implement any such procedure if the staff are not aware of a potential issue?

You can't have it both ways- you want to school to act, but only as you dictate.